Guest guest Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals would be. One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them to return to the wild. I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and eliminate all pet stores. I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. What would you like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2008 Report Share Posted June 15, 2008 We are all individuals with different points-of-view and reasons for eating a vegetarian or vegan diet. Generally those of us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes much more - generally do so with a strong conviction that non-human animals are not ours to exploit. As to what would happen to the animals people typically eat if we were to all stop eating them and their products, well, the fact is that everyone in the world will not cease consuming animals simultaneously. Even in the best of circumstances, it would be gradual, so it's not as though there would be all these billions of animals just hanging out. I imagine that as we decrease our appetite for and consumption of animals, their numbers will decrease - supply and demand - until their species are at a healthy, manageable population. From there, it's purely speculative as to how they would live: return to their natural state, be cared for on sanctuaries, etc. I don't see the point in bringing animals into the world simply to give them life when we are confining, harming and killing them. Many of us who have seen footage of factory farms feel that it would be better to not be born than to be subject to such abject cruelty. I'm sure that others may have different thoughts on this topic, but I don't believe it to be such a radical view at all. All the best, Marla > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals > would be. > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them to > return to the wild. > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and eliminate > all pet stores. > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop eating > meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. What would you like to see > happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently in the world. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2008 Report Share Posted June 15, 2008 Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed in the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My mantra is " feel people, not pets " & nbsp; I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; & nbsp; As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. & nbsp; I will get off of my soapbox now. & nbsp; Robin --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko & gt; wrote: Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko & gt; Re: learning everyday Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals would be. One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them to return to the wild. I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and eliminate all pet stores. I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would you like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2008 Report Share Posted June 15, 2008 realistically, what you outline is not possible unless a large portion of the world's population dies out, which, hey! will probably happen one of these days. when that happens a large portion of the population of domesticated animals will die also, because there are simply too many to return to the wild. also, many of the animals who currently exist within human structures cannot, unfortunately, survive without human intervention. some liberationists who released minks from a fur farm a few years ago were sad to learn that most of the animals died; the only ones who survived were the ones who stayed near the farm and were returned to their cages. i do believe that animals should not be bred and sold as pets, but i have three rescues and i'm not going to apologize for including them in my family. your scenario is entirely contingent upon most of word's population dying. for horses to return to the wild there has to BE a wild, which can only happen, at this point, with a dramatically restructured society that might occur after an enormous population collapse. someday, i want to farm. i'd like to have a sanctuary for animals, also. i'll live symbiotically with those animals as humans have for thousands of years. they'll provide us with manure and weeding; we'll provide them with safety, food, shelter and comfort. they'll be saved from terrible situations - slaughterhouses, abusive keepers - and they'll live out their lives in happiness until they die. this is my ideal. to me, humans and many animals MUST live symbiotically, mutually benefiting, as long as there are so many of both us and them. i don't characterize my sentiments as an issue of animal " rights. " to me it's irrevelent, and a confusing issue, to discuss the supposed rights of non-human creatures. we shouldn't treat animals well because they " deserve " rights. we should treat animals well because our humanity and survival is dependent upon it. chandelle On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko wrote: > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals > would be. > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > to return to the wild. > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > eliminate all pet stores. > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. What would you like > to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently in > the world. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those of us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the vegan lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. God's Peace, Gayle " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og Mandino (1923 - 1996) - robin koloms Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM Re: learning everyday Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed in the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My mantra is " feel people, not pets " & nbsp; I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; & nbsp; As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. & nbsp; I will get off of my soapbox now. & nbsp; Robin --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko & gt; wrote: Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko & gt; Re: learning everyday Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals would be. One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them to return to the wild. I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and eliminate all pet stores. I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would you like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 i agree about the difference between diet and lifestyle. i used to call myself a vegan and i was very clear that i meant that i also did not use bee products, leather, wool, silk and so on in addition to my diet. over my more than three years as a vegan i have shifted much of my thinking and while i still never consume animal products, i don't call myself a vegan anymore. i refer to the vegan diet or just a plant-based diet, but i'm not a " lifestyle vegan " anymore. becoming vegan for me began as a concern about animals, and gradually grew to encompass the health of humans and the earth. as such i have decided that i'd rather use local honey and beeswax than petroleum-based products; i'd rather use recycled wool or wool from reputable local sources than petroleum-based products or conventional cotton; i'd rather use ahimsa silk than something else, and so on. it was very frustrating to me, for example, that vegan products abound to replace leather or wool, especially for important products such as shoes, but they use polyester, conventional cotton, vinyl or other terrible alternatives. and the overuse of soy has become a very large problems that many veggies seem to overlook. ultimately i decided that a compromise had to be made. this has effectively annexed me from the vegan community, for the most part, but i feel that my worldview has become much broader than it used to be and perhaps most importantly, i have realized the complete and utter lack of purity, the impossibility of utterly eradicating destructiveness or exploitation from our lives. someday i'd like to drop out, grow all my own food, build a cob cottage, make my own clothing from fibers i grow myself, and have a sanctuary for farm and other animals - but for right now i live in the world and we all do what we have to do to sleep at night. for me that means that i buy peace fleece instead of polyester or conventional cotton, while someone else could not live with themselves with such a choice. i don't believe either of us are right or wrong. we're just doing the best we can. chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Gayle <dilemma5 wrote: > What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the > reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those of > us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes > much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the vegan > lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. > > God's Peace, > Gayle > " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og > Mandino (1923 - 1996) > > - > robin koloms > <%40> > Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM > Re: learning everyday > > Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all > vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed in > the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My mantra is > " feel people, not pets " > & nbsp; > I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how > incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut > their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; > & nbsp; > As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our > drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to > recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. > & nbsp; > I will get off of my soapbox now. > & nbsp; > Robin > > --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko<lebasi.klotko%40> & gt; > wrote: > > Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko <lebasi.klotko%40> & gt; > Re: learning everyday > <%40> > Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals > would be. > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > to return to the wild. > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > eliminate all pet stores. > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would you > like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently > in the world. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 That is a nice dream. My mommy had a farm where she didnt eat the animals. She kept them as pets she said. Her cows were in heat and would try and cross the highway to get to bulls. She didnt like tieing her up. She eventually had to give her up the chickens soon followed. It was funny because my husband had never seen chickens living free. They actually fly into trees. He didnt know chickens could fly. Funny I never thought of this as animal rights either. I just think of it as part of nature. It seems unatural for me. chandelle' <earthmother213 Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:47:23 AM Re: learning everyday realistically, what you outline is not possible unless a large portion of the world's population dies out, which, hey! will probably happen one of these days. when that happens a large portion of the population of domesticated animals will die also, because there are simply too many to return to the wild. also, many of the animals who currently exist within human structures cannot, unfortunately, survive without human intervention. some liberationists who released minks from a fur farm a few years ago were sad to learn that most of the animals died; the only ones who survived were the ones who stayed near the farm and were returned to their cages. i do believe that animals should not be bred and sold as pets, but i have three rescues and i'm not going to apologize for including them in my family. your scenario is entirely contingent upon most of word's population dying. for horses to return to the wild there has to BE a wild, which can only happen, at this point, with a dramatically restructured society that might occur after an enormous population collapse. someday, i want to farm. i'd like to have a sanctuary for animals, also. i'll live symbiotically with those animals as humans have for thousands of years. they'll provide us with manure and weeding; we'll provide them with safety, food, shelter and comfort. they'll be saved from terrible situations - slaughterhouses, abusive keepers - and they'll live out their lives in happiness until they die. this is my ideal. to me, humans and many animals MUST live symbiotically, mutually benefiting, as long as there are so many of both us and them. i don't characterize my sentiments as an issue of animal " rights. " to me it's irrevelent, and a confusing issue, to discuss the supposed rights of non-human creatures. we shouldn't treat animals well because they " deserve " rights. we should treat animals well because our humanity and survival is dependent upon it. chandelle On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko@ > wrote: > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals > would be. > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > to return to the wild. > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > eliminate all pet stores. > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. What would you like > to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently in > the world. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Actually, & nbsp;we live the environmentalist lifestyle (no car, recycle, reuse, repair, etc.). --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Gayle & lt;dilemma5 & gt; wrote: Gayle & lt;dilemma5 & gt; Re: learning everyday Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:26 AM What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those of us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the vegan lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. God's Peace, Gayle " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og Mandino (1923 - 1996) - robin koloms @gro ups.com Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM Re: learning everyday Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & amp;nbsp; I have never believed in the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & amp;nbsp; My mantra is " feel people, not pets " & amp;nbsp; I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & amp;nbsp; If Americans cut their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & amp;nbsp; & amp;nbsp; As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. & amp;nbsp; I will get off of my soapbox now. & amp;nbsp; Robin --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & amp;lt;lebasi.klotko@ & amp;gt; wrote: Lebasi & amp;lt;lebasi.klotko@ & amp;gt; Re: learning everyday @gro ups.com Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals would be. One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them to return to the wild. I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and eliminate all pet stores. I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & amp;nbsp; What would you like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I have found that making the right choice is not always black and white. I agree and I dont believe in labels anyway. I too try and eat organic and buy organic. I try to eliminate any chemicals in my living. I think of nature as one unity and not seperate groups. It is very hard to make choices when your alternatives are as bad or worse. I have been researching this lately and have found it extremely frustating. With everyone agreeing that we need to stop using oil and alternatives springing up around us the alternatives can be just as damanging to our earth. Which again frustrates me. I am eager to see how smart humans really are. I would love to see science figure solutions that were good all around. chandelle' <earthmother213 Monday, June 16, 2008 11:57:30 AM Re: learning everyday i agree about the difference between diet and lifestyle. i used to call myself a vegan and i was very clear that i meant that i also did not use bee products, leather, wool, silk and so on in addition to my diet. over my more than three years as a vegan i have shifted much of my thinking and while i still never consume animal products, i don't call myself a vegan anymore. i refer to the vegan diet or just a plant-based diet, but i'm not a " lifestyle vegan " anymore. becoming vegan for me began as a concern about animals, and gradually grew to encompass the health of humans and the earth. as such i have decided that i'd rather use local honey and beeswax than petroleum-based products; i'd rather use recycled wool or wool from reputable local sources than petroleum-based products or conventional cotton; i'd rather use ahimsa silk than something else, and so on. it was very frustrating to me, for example, that vegan products abound to replace leather or wool, especially for important products such as shoes, but they use polyester, conventional cotton, vinyl or other terrible alternatives. and the overuse of soy has become a very large problems that many veggies seem to overlook. ultimately i decided that a compromise had to be made. this has effectively annexed me from the vegan community, for the most part, but i feel that my worldview has become much broader than it used to be and perhaps most importantly, i have realized the complete and utter lack of purity, the impossibility of utterly eradicating destructiveness or exploitation from our lives. someday i'd like to drop out, grow all my own food, build a cob cottage, make my own clothing from fibers i grow myself, and have a sanctuary for farm and other animals - but for right now i live in the world and we all do what we have to do to sleep at night. for me that means that i buy peace fleece instead of polyester or conventional cotton, while someone else could not live with themselves with such a choice. i don't believe either of us are right or wrong. we're just doing the best we can. chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Gayle <dilemma5 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: > What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the > reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those of > us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes > much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the vegan > lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. > > God's Peace, > Gayle > " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og > Mandino (1923 - 1996) > > - > robin koloms > @gro ups.com <% 40. com> > Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM > Re: learning everyday > > Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all > vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed in > the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My mantra is > " feel people, not pets " > & nbsp; > I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how > incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut > their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; > & nbsp; > As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our > drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to > recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. > & nbsp; > I will get off of my soapbox now. > & nbsp; > Robin > > --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> & gt; > wrote: > > Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> & gt; > Re: learning everyday > @gro ups.com <% 40. com> > Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals > would be. > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > to return to the wild. > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > eliminate all pet stores. > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would you > like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently > in the world. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 did your mother not like to fence in the cows, either? or did she not like to neuter the animals? why couldn't she prevent the cows from crossing the highway? sanctuaries such as farm sanctuary, ching sanctuary, watkins glen and others don't seem to have a problem keeping cows contained without eating them. chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko wrote: > That is a nice dream. > My mommy had a farm where she didnt eat the animals. She kept them as pets > she said. Her cows were in heat and would try and cross the highway to get > to bulls. She didnt like tieing her up. She eventually had to give her up > the chickens soon followed. > > It was funny because my husband had never seen chickens living free. They > actually fly into trees. He didnt know chickens could fly. > Funny I never thought of this as animal rights either. I just think of it > as part of nature. It seems unatural for me. > > > chandelle' <earthmother213 <earthmother213%40gmail.com>> > <%40> > Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:47:23 AM > Re: learning everyday > > realistically, what you outline is not possible unless a large portion of > the world's population dies out, which, hey! will probably happen one of > these days. when that happens a large portion of the population of > domesticated animals will die also, because there are simply too many to > return to the wild. also, many of the animals who currently exist within > > human structures cannot, unfortunately, survive without human intervention. > some liberationists who released minks from a fur farm a few years ago were > sad to learn that most of the animals died; the only ones who survived were > the ones who stayed near the farm and were returned to their cages. > > i do believe that animals should not be bred and sold as pets, but i have > three rescues and i'm not going to apologize for including them in my > family. > > your scenario is entirely contingent upon most of word's population dying. > for horses to return to the wild there has to BE a wild, which can only > happen, at this point, with a dramatically restructured society that might > occur after an enormous population collapse. > > someday, i want to farm. i'd like to have a sanctuary for animals, also. > i'll live symbiotically with those animals as humans have for thousands of > years. they'll provide us with manure and weeding; we'll provide them with > safety, food, shelter and comfort. they'll be saved from terrible > situations - slaughterhouses, abusive keepers - and they'll live out their > lives in happiness until they die. this is my ideal. to me, humans and > many animals MUST live symbiotically, mutually benefiting, as long as there > are so many of both us and them. > > i don't characterize my sentiments as an issue of animal " rights. " to me > it's irrevelent, and a confusing issue, to discuss the supposed rights of > non-human creatures. we shouldn't treat animals well because they " deserve " > rights. we should treat animals well because our humanity and survival is > dependent upon it. > > chandelle > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko@ > wrote: > > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have > had > > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your > ideals > > would be. > > > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > > to return to the wild. > > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > > eliminate all pet stores. > > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. What would you > like > > to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently > in > > the world. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 exactly. for me, environmentalism began as one aspect of my veganism but ultimately my veganism was incorporated into a larger environmentalism. chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 1:19 PM, robin koloms <rkoloms wrote: > Actually, & nbsp;we live the environmentalist lifestyle (no car, recycle, > reuse, repair, etc.). > > --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Gayle & lt;dilemma5<dilemma5%40earthlink.net> & gt; > wrote: > > Gayle & lt;dilemma5 <dilemma5%40earthlink.net> & gt; > > Re: learning everyday > <%40> > Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:26 AM > > What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the > reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those of > us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes > much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the vegan > lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. > > God's Peace, > Gayle > " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og > Mandino (1923 - 1996) > > - > robin koloms > @gro ups.com > Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM > Re: learning everyday > > Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all > vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & amp;nbsp; I have never believed > in the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & amp;nbsp; My > mantra is " feel people, not pets " > & amp;nbsp; > I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how > incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & amp;nbsp; If Americans cut > their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & amp;nbsp; > & amp;nbsp; > As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our > drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to > recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. > & amp;nbsp; > I will get off of my soapbox now. > & amp;nbsp; > Robin > > --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & amp;lt;lebasi.klotko@ & amp;gt; > wrote: > > Lebasi & amp;lt;lebasi.klotko@ & amp;gt; > Re: learning everyday > @gro ups.com > Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals > would be. > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > to return to the wild. > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > eliminate all pet stores. > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & amp;nbsp; What would > you like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are > currently in the world. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Its ironic but she wanted him to be free. Fencing him seemed cruel to her. chandelle' <earthmother213 Monday, June 16, 2008 4:12:07 PM Re: learning everyday did your mother not like to fence in the cows, either? or did she not like to neuter the animals? why couldn't she prevent the cows from crossing the highway? sanctuaries such as farm sanctuary, ching sanctuary, watkins glen and others don't seem to have a problem keeping cows contained without eating them. chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko@ > wrote: > That is a nice dream. > My mommy had a farm where she didnt eat the animals. She kept them as pets > she said. Her cows were in heat and would try and cross the highway to get > to bulls. She didnt like tieing her up. She eventually had to give her up > the chickens soon followed. > > It was funny because my husband had never seen chickens living free. They > actually fly into trees. He didnt know chickens could fly. > Funny I never thought of this as animal rights either. I just think of it > as part of nature. It seems unatural for me. > > > chandelle' <earthmother213@ gmail.com <earthmother213% 40gmail.com> > > @gro ups.com <% 40. com> > Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:47:23 AM > Re: learning everyday > > realistically, what you outline is not possible unless a large portion of > the world's population dies out, which, hey! will probably happen one of > these days. when that happens a large portion of the population of > domesticated animals will die also, because there are simply too many to > return to the wild. also, many of the animals who currently exist within > > human structures cannot, unfortunately, survive without human intervention. > some liberationists who released minks from a fur farm a few years ago were > sad to learn that most of the animals died; the only ones who survived were > the ones who stayed near the farm and were returned to their cages. > > i do believe that animals should not be bred and sold as pets, but i have > three rescues and i'm not going to apologize for including them in my > family. > > your scenario is entirely contingent upon most of word's population dying. > for horses to return to the wild there has to BE a wild, which can only > happen, at this point, with a dramatically restructured society that might > occur after an enormous population collapse. > > someday, i want to farm. i'd like to have a sanctuary for animals, also. > i'll live symbiotically with those animals as humans have for thousands of > years. they'll provide us with manure and weeding; we'll provide them with > safety, food, shelter and comfort. they'll be saved from terrible > situations - slaughterhouses, abusive keepers - and they'll live out their > lives in happiness until they die. this is my ideal. to me, humans and > many animals MUST live symbiotically, mutually benefiting, as long as there > are so many of both us and them. > > i don't characterize my sentiments as an issue of animal " rights. " to me > it's irrevelent, and a confusing issue, to discuss the supposed rights of > non-human creatures. we shouldn't treat animals well because they " deserve " > rights. we should treat animals well because our humanity and survival is > dependent upon it. > > chandelle > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko@ > wrote: > > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have > had > > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your > ideals > > would be. > > > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > > to return to the wild. > > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > > eliminate all pet stores. > > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. What would you > like > > to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently > in > > the world. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 but it was cruel to put him at risk, also. i don't think we should share space with animals unless we're going to take care of them. if we want them to be wild then we shouldn't share space with them, feed them, get them veterinary care; we can't have it both ways. if we're going to house them, they become our responsibility. sorry if this sounds harsh, but i just think it's wrong to take in an animal and then do nothing to protect them or give them a good life. chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko wrote: > Its ironic but she wanted him to be free. Fencing him seemed cruel to > her. > > > chandelle' <earthmother213 <earthmother213%40gmail.com>> > <%40> > Monday, June 16, 2008 4:12:07 PM > Re: learning everyday > > did your mother not like to fence in the cows, either? or did she not like > to neuter the animals? why couldn't she prevent the cows from crossing the > highway? sanctuaries such as farm sanctuary, ching sanctuary, watkins glen > and others don't seem to have a problem keeping cows contained without > eating them. > > chandelle > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko@ > wrote: > > > That is a nice dream. > > My mommy had a farm where she didnt eat the animals. She kept them as > pets > > she said. Her cows were in heat and would try and cross the highway to > get > > to bulls. She didnt like tieing her up. She eventually had to give her up > > the chickens soon followed. > > > > It was funny because my husband had never seen chickens living free. They > > actually fly into trees. He didnt know chickens could fly. > > Funny I never thought of this as animal rights either. I just think of it > > as part of nature. It seems unatural for me. > > > > > > chandelle' <earthmother213@ gmail.com <earthmother213% 40gmail.com> > > > > @gro ups.com <% 40. com> > > Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:47:23 AM > > Re: learning everyday > > > > realistically, what you outline is not possible unless a large portion of > > the world's population dies out, which, hey! will probably happen one of > > these days. when that happens a large portion of the population of > > domesticated animals will die also, because there are simply too many to > > return to the wild. also, many of the animals who currently exist within > > > > human structures cannot, unfortunately, survive without human > intervention. > > some liberationists who released minks from a fur farm a few years ago > were > > sad to learn that most of the animals died; the only ones who survived > were > > the ones who stayed near the farm and were returned to their cages. > > > > i do believe that animals should not be bred and sold as pets, but i have > > three rescues and i'm not going to apologize for including them in my > > family. > > > > your scenario is entirely contingent upon most of word's population > dying. > > for horses to return to the wild there has to BE a wild, which can only > > happen, at this point, with a dramatically restructured society that > might > > occur after an enormous population collapse. > > > > someday, i want to farm. i'd like to have a sanctuary for animals, also. > > i'll live symbiotically with those animals as humans have for thousands > of > > years. they'll provide us with manure and weeding; we'll provide them > with > > safety, food, shelter and comfort. they'll be saved from terrible > > situations - slaughterhouses, abusive keepers - and they'll live out > their > > lives in happiness until they die. this is my ideal. to me, humans and > > many animals MUST live symbiotically, mutually benefiting, as long as > there > > are so many of both us and them. > > > > i don't characterize my sentiments as an issue of animal " rights. " to me > > it's irrevelent, and a confusing issue, to discuss the supposed rights of > > non-human creatures. we shouldn't treat animals well because they > " deserve " > > rights. we should treat animals well because our humanity and survival is > > dependent upon it. > > > > chandelle > > > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko@ > > wrote: > > > > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians > especially > > > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I > have > > had > > > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your > > ideals > > > would be. > > > > > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow > them > > > to return to the wild. > > > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > > > eliminate all pet stores. > > > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > > > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. What would you > > like > > > to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently > > in > > > the world. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 My family came to veganism by way of environmentalism as well. As environmentalists, it seems the responsible choice for us. I have never been an animal rights activist but am glad that our lifestyle helps in that area too -- and in many other areas, like our health! We too have recently started eating local honey after having discussions with the bee keeper to be sure he was responsible. Maybe we shouldn't call ourselves vegan anymore. But we do make a strong effort to live a vegan lifestyle as well, never buying leather or wool and from a more environmental perspective trying to live consciously and make good choices about all the things we buy. I think we all just do the best we can, I am still discovering things about our lifestyle that do damage that I had never realized or thought about, and still struggling with some of the sacrifices we have to make to live according to what we feel is ethical. I think the point is that once we become aware, we move to make changes if possible. No one can be perfect and we'll drive ourselves mad trying. Heather chandelle' wrote: > > exactly. for me, environmentalism began as one aspect of my veganism but > ultimately my veganism was incorporated into a larger environmentalism. > > chandelle > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 1:19 PM, robin koloms <rkoloms > <rkoloms%40>> wrote: > > > Actually, & nbsp;we live the environmentalist lifestyle (no car, recycle, > > reuse, repair, etc.). > > > > --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Gayle & lt;dilemma5 > <dilemma5%40earthlink.net><dilemma5%40earthlink.net> & gt; > > wrote: > > > > Gayle & lt;dilemma5 > <dilemma5%40earthlink.net> <dilemma5%40earthlink.net> & gt; > > > > Re: learning everyday > > <%40> > <%40> > > Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:26 AM > > > > What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the > > reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally > those of > > us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it > includes > > much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the > vegan > > lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. > > > > God's Peace, > > Gayle > > " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og > > Mandino (1923 - 1996) > > > > - > > robin koloms > > @gro ups.com > > Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM > > Re: learning everyday > > > > Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, > not all > > vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & amp;nbsp; I have never > believed > > in the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " > mantra. & amp;nbsp; My > > mantra is " feel people, not pets " > > & amp;nbsp; > > I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I > learned how > > incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & amp;nbsp; If > Americans cut > > their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & amp;nbsp; > > & amp;nbsp; > > As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our > > drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to > > recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its > woes. > > & amp;nbsp; > > I will get off of my soapbox now. > > & amp;nbsp; > > Robin > > > > --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & amp;lt;lebasi.klotko@ & amp;gt; > > wrote: > > > > Lebasi & amp;lt;lebasi.klotko@ & amp;gt; > > Re: learning everyday > > @gro ups.com > > Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM > > > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I > have had > > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your > ideals > > would be. > > > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow > them > > to return to the wild. > > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > > eliminate all pet stores. > > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & amp;nbsp; > What would > > you like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are > > currently in the world. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I agree with much of what you wrote, Chandelle, though I have no issue with referring to myself as vegan; I'm happy to be an example to the world of a joyful vegan. I have also been having discussions wit my husband for the past year or so about the idea of symbiosis with non-human animals, and how that really is the ideal, environmentally and spiritually. It's the most holistic approach, I think. To me, living symbiotically with other animals means the same thing as what you described, not drinking their milk (ew!) or eating their eggs, but finding a relationship that is mutually beneficial. Sheering rescued sheep when it is natural to do so (the right time seasonally and using gentle methods) while providing shelter, food, care and companionship in a natural exchange. In fact, under those circumstances, I can't find a thing wrong with it. I'd much rather be using natural fibers that some petrochemically-based bit of disgustingness or something created in a sweatshop. It's the same thing with certain bee products under the right circumstances, but I'm fine with agave as it is. (I agree that soy - especially the overly-processed variety - is much too frequently consumed among veg*ns.) I say all this as someone who has no desire to drop out and homestead, though, as a confirmed and happy city-dweller, I do a bit of homesteading (canning, gardening, hanging clothes out to dry, using a bike or my feet as opposed to driving, etc.), which is very far from the miasmic suburban environment I was raised in. My mom shakes her head in shock that I am rejecting many of her generation's " luxuries " (frozen food, car culture, mass media, etc.) and am trying to live simpler, more like my grandmother lived. We are all trying to find ways of living that resonate most deeply with our core values. All the best, Marla > i agree about the difference between diet and lifestyle. i used to call > myself a vegan and i was very clear that i meant that i also did not use bee > products, leather, wool, silk and so on in addition to my diet. over my > more than three years as a vegan i have shifted much of my thinking and > while i still never consume animal products, i don't call myself a vegan > anymore. i refer to the vegan diet or just a plant-based diet, but i'm not > a " lifestyle vegan " anymore. becoming vegan for me began as a concern about > animals, and gradually grew to encompass the health of humans and the > earth. as such i have decided that i'd rather use local honey and beeswax > than petroleum-based products; i'd rather use recycled wool or wool from > reputable local sources than petroleum-based products or conventional > cotton; i'd rather use ahimsa silk than something else, and so on. it was > very frustrating to me, for example, that vegan products abound to replace > leather or wool, especially for important products such as shoes, but they > use polyester, conventional cotton, vinyl or other terrible alternatives. > and the overuse of soy has become a very large problems that many veggies > seem to overlook. ultimately i decided that a compromise had to be made. > this has effectively annexed me from the vegan community, for the most part, > but i feel that my worldview has become much broader than it used to be and > perhaps most importantly, i have realized the complete and utter lack of > purity, the impossibility of utterly eradicating destructiveness or > exploitation from our lives. someday i'd like to drop out, grow all my own > food, build a cob cottage, make my own clothing from fibers i grow myself, > and have a sanctuary for farm and other animals - but for right now i live > in the world and we all do what we have to do to sleep at night. for me > that means that i buy peace fleece instead of polyester or conventional > cotton, while someone else could not live with themselves with such a > choice. i don't believe either of us are right or wrong. we're just doing > the best we can. > > chandelle > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Gayle <dilemma5 wrote: > >> What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the >> reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those of >> us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes >> much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the vegan >> lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. >> >> God's Peace, >> Gayle >> " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og >> Mandino (1923 - 1996) >> >> - >> robin koloms >> <%40> >> Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM >> Re: learning everyday >> >> Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all >> vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed in >> the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My mantra is >> " feel people, not pets " >> & nbsp; >> I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how >> incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut >> their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; >> & nbsp; >> As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our >> drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to >> recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. >> & nbsp; >> I will get off of my soapbox now. >> & nbsp; >> Robin >> >> --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi >> & lt;lebasi.klotko<lebasi.klotko%40> & gt; >> wrote: >> >> Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko <lebasi.klotko%40> & gt; >> Re: learning everyday >> <%40> >> Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM >> >> Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially >> vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had >> many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals >> would be. >> >> One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them >> to return to the wild. >> I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and >> eliminate all pet stores. >> I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop >> eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would you >> like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently >> in the world. >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I admire your perspective and growth. I aspire to this level of consciousness. Thanks for sharing. Liz chandelle' <earthmother213 Monday, June 16, 2008 8:57:30 AM Re: learning everyday i agree about the difference between diet and lifestyle. i used to call myself a vegan and i was very clear that i meant that i also did not use bee products, leather, wool, silk and so on in addition to my diet. over my more than three years as a vegan i have shifted much of my thinking and while i still never consume animal products, i don't call myself a vegan anymore. i refer to the vegan diet or just a plant-based diet, but i'm not a " lifestyle vegan " anymore. becoming vegan for me began as a concern about animals, and gradually grew to encompass the health of humans and the earth. as such i have decided that i'd rather use local honey and beeswax than petroleum-based products; i'd rather use recycled wool or wool from reputable local sources than petroleum-based products or conventional cotton; i'd rather use ahimsa silk than something else, and so on. it was very frustrating to me, for example, that vegan products abound to replace leather or wool, especially for important products such as shoes, but they use polyester, conventional cotton, vinyl or other terrible alternatives. and the overuse of soy has become a very large problems that many veggies seem to overlook. ultimately i decided that a compromise had to be made. this has effectively annexed me from the vegan community, for the most part, but i feel that my worldview has become much broader than it used to be and perhaps most importantly, i have realized the complete and utter lack of purity, the impossibility of utterly eradicating destructiveness or exploitation from our lives. someday i'd like to drop out, grow all my own food, build a cob cottage, make my own clothing from fibers i grow myself, and have a sanctuary for farm and other animals - but for right now i live in the world and we all do what we have to do to sleep at night. for me that means that i buy peace fleece instead of polyester or conventional cotton, while someone else could not live with themselves with such a choice. i don't believe either of us are right or wrong. we're just doing the best we can. chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Gayle <dilemma5 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: > What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the > reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those of > us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it includes > much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the vegan > lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. > > God's Peace, > Gayle > " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og > Mandino (1923 - 1996) > > - > robin koloms > @gro ups.com <% 40. com> > Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM > Re: learning everyday > > Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not all > vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed in > the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My mantra is > " feel people, not pets " > & nbsp; > I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned how > incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut > their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; > & nbsp; > As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our > drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to > recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its woes. > & nbsp; > I will get off of my soapbox now. > & nbsp; > Robin > > --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> & gt; > wrote: > > Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> & gt; > Re: learning everyday > @gro ups.com <% 40. com> > Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM > > Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have had > many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your ideals > would be. > > One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow them > to return to the wild. > I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > eliminate all pet stores. > I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would you > like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are currently > in the world. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 marla, i agree with you 100%. but your mentioning of not eating chicken eggs brings up a question i've been pondering recently. on our future homestead we certainly intend to have chickens. chicken manure is a wonderful fertilizer and they are just awesome creatures! we have an animal sanctuary nearby and i fell in love with the chickens. i collapsed with laughter the first time i heard them all bock-bock BOCKAHHH!!! with joy - chickens celebrate in this very clear way every time someone lays an egg and i remember it as one of the most clearly beautiful moments of my life, to hear that. so chickens are in, for sure. but there is the rather large question of their eggs. chickens produce eggs whether you want them to or not. i asked about the eggs at the sanctuary and was told that they often feed the eggs back to the chickens or to other animals. feeding eggs to chickens strikes me as somewhat odd, but maybe that's normal behavior, i really don't know yet. producing eggs consumes a lot of calcium for the chickens so the sanctuary workers had the intention of returning as much of that calcium to the birds as they could. eggs are a great food for other animals, so i can see that working. we'll go out of our way to be sure that the eggs are not fertilized since we'll have a limit on how many chickens we can have around. but i've never felt that eggs were particularly unhealthy, so i wonder if we'll eat them from time to time. but that brings up all kinds of cognitive dissonance and doubts about self image and identification. weird stuff. any thoughts? chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Marla Rose <marla wrote: > I agree with much of what you wrote, Chandelle, though I have no issue > with > referring to myself as vegan; I'm happy to be an example to the world of a > joyful vegan. I have also been having discussions wit my husband for the > past year or so about the idea of symbiosis with non-human animals, and how > that really is the ideal, environmentally and spiritually. It's the most > holistic approach, I think. To me, living symbiotically with other animals > means the same thing as what you described, not drinking their milk (ew!) > or > eating their eggs, but finding a relationship that is mutually beneficial. > Sheering rescued sheep when it is natural to do so (the right time > seasonally and using gentle methods) while providing shelter, food, care > and > companionship in a natural exchange. In fact, under those circumstances, I > can't find a thing wrong with it. I'd much rather be using natural fibers > that some petrochemically-based bit of disgustingness or something created > in a sweatshop. It's the same thing with certain bee products under the > right circumstances, but I'm fine with agave as it is. (I agree that soy - > especially the overly-processed variety - is much too frequently consumed > among veg*ns.) > > I say all this as someone who has no desire to drop out and homestead, > though, as a confirmed and happy city-dweller, I do a bit of homesteading > (canning, gardening, hanging clothes out to dry, using a bike or my feet as > opposed to driving, etc.), which is very far from the miasmic suburban > environment I was raised in. My mom shakes her head in shock that I am > rejecting many of her generation's " luxuries " (frozen food, car culture, > mass media, etc.) and am trying to live simpler, more like my grandmother > lived. We are all trying to find ways of living that resonate most deeply > with our core values. > > All the best, > > Marla > > > i agree about the difference between diet and lifestyle. i used to call > > myself a vegan and i was very clear that i meant that i also did not use > bee > > products, leather, wool, silk and so on in addition to my diet. over my > > more than three years as a vegan i have shifted much of my thinking and > > while i still never consume animal products, i don't call myself a vegan > > anymore. i refer to the vegan diet or just a plant-based diet, but i'm > not > > a " lifestyle vegan " anymore. becoming vegan for me began as a concern > about > > animals, and gradually grew to encompass the health of humans and the > > earth. as such i have decided that i'd rather use local honey and beeswax > > than petroleum-based products; i'd rather use recycled wool or wool from > > reputable local sources than petroleum-based products or conventional > > cotton; i'd rather use ahimsa silk than something else, and so on. it was > > very frustrating to me, for example, that vegan products abound to > replace > > leather or wool, especially for important products such as shoes, but > they > > use polyester, conventional cotton, vinyl or other terrible alternatives. > > and the overuse of soy has become a very large problems that many veggies > > seem to overlook. ultimately i decided that a compromise had to be made. > > this has effectively annexed me from the vegan community, for the most > part, > > but i feel that my worldview has become much broader than it used to be > and > > perhaps most importantly, i have realized the complete and utter lack of > > purity, the impossibility of utterly eradicating destructiveness or > > exploitation from our lives. someday i'd like to drop out, grow all my > own > > food, build a cob cottage, make my own clothing from fibers i grow > myself, > > and have a sanctuary for farm and other animals - but for right now i > live > > in the world and we all do what we have to do to sleep at night. for me > > that means that i buy peace fleece instead of polyester or conventional > > cotton, while someone else could not live with themselves with such a > > choice. i don't believe either of us are right or wrong. we're just doing > > the best we can. > > > > chandelle > > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Gayle <dilemma5<dilemma5%40earthlink.net>> > wrote: > > > >> What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the > >> reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those > of > >> us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it > includes > >> much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the > vegan > >> lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. > >> > >> God's Peace, > >> Gayle > >> " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og > >> Mandino (1923 - 1996) > >> > >> - > >> robin koloms > >> <%40><% > 40> > >> Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM > >> Re: learning everyday > >> > >> Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not > all > >> vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed > in > >> the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My > mantra is > >> " feel people, not pets " > >> & nbsp; > >> I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned > how > >> incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut > >> their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; > >> & nbsp; > >> As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our > >> drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to > >> recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its > woes. > >> & nbsp; > >> I will get off of my soapbox now. > >> & nbsp; > >> Robin > >> > >> --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi > >> & lt;lebasi.klotko <lebasi.klotko%40><lebasi.klotko% > 40> & gt; > >> wrote: > >> > >> Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko <lebasi.klotko%40><lebasi.klotko% > 40> & gt; > >> Re: learning everyday > >> <%40><% > 40> > >> Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM > >> > >> Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > >> vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have > had > >> many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your > ideals > >> would be. > >> > >> One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow > them > >> to return to the wild. > >> I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > >> eliminate all pet stores. > >> I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > >> eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would > you > >> like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are > currently > >> in the world. > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 All I can add is that making sure they are not fertilized it the tricky part unless they are contained. My mother had them loose and she trippled her chicken farm very quickly. They hide their eggs. chandelle' <earthmother213 Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:32:51 PM Re: learning everyday marla, i agree with you 100%. but your mentioning of not eating chicken eggs brings up a question i've been pondering recently. on our future homestead we certainly intend to have chickens. chicken manure is a wonderful fertilizer and they are just awesome creatures! we have an animal sanctuary nearby and i fell in love with the chickens. i collapsed with laughter the first time i heard them all bock-bock BOCKAHHH!!! with joy - chickens celebrate in this very clear way every time someone lays an egg and i remember it as one of the most clearly beautiful moments of my life, to hear that. so chickens are in, for sure. but there is the rather large question of their eggs. chickens produce eggs whether you want them to or not. i asked about the eggs at the sanctuary and was told that they often feed the eggs back to the chickens or to other animals. feeding eggs to chickens strikes me as somewhat odd, but maybe that's normal behavior, i really don't know yet. producing eggs consumes a lot of calcium for the chickens so the sanctuary workers had the intention of returning as much of that calcium to the birds as they could. eggs are a great food for other animals, so i can see that working. we'll go out of our way to be sure that the eggs are not fertilized since we'll have a limit on how many chickens we can have around. but i've never felt that eggs were particularly unhealthy, so i wonder if we'll eat them from time to time. but that brings up all kinds of cognitive dissonance and doubts about self image and identification. weird stuff. any thoughts? chandelle On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Marla Rose <marla (AT) veganstreet (DOT) com> wrote: > I agree with much of what you wrote, Chandelle, though I have no issue > with > referring to myself as vegan; I'm happy to be an example to the world of a > joyful vegan. I have also been having discussions wit my husband for the > past year or so about the idea of symbiosis with non-human animals, and how > that really is the ideal, environmentally and spiritually. It's the most > holistic approach, I think. To me, living symbiotically with other animals > means the same thing as what you described, not drinking their milk (ew!) > or > eating their eggs, but finding a relationship that is mutually beneficial. > Sheering rescued sheep when it is natural to do so (the right time > seasonally and using gentle methods) while providing shelter, food, care > and > companionship in a natural exchange. In fact, under those circumstances, I > can't find a thing wrong with it. I'd much rather be using natural fibers > that some petrochemically- based bit of disgustingness or something created > in a sweatshop. It's the same thing with certain bee products under the > right circumstances, but I'm fine with agave as it is. (I agree that soy - > especially the overly-processed variety - is much too frequently consumed > among veg*ns.) > > I say all this as someone who has no desire to drop out and homestead, > though, as a confirmed and happy city-dweller, I do a bit of homesteading > (canning, gardening, hanging clothes out to dry, using a bike or my feet as > opposed to driving, etc.), which is very far from the miasmic suburban > environment I was raised in. My mom shakes her head in shock that I am > rejecting many of her generation's " luxuries " (frozen food, car culture, > mass media, etc.) and am trying to live simpler, more like my grandmother > lived. We are all trying to find ways of living that resonate most deeply > with our core values. > > All the best, > > Marla > > > i agree about the difference between diet and lifestyle. i used to call > > myself a vegan and i was very clear that i meant that i also did not use > bee > > products, leather, wool, silk and so on in addition to my diet. over my > > more than three years as a vegan i have shifted much of my thinking and > > while i still never consume animal products, i don't call myself a vegan > > anymore. i refer to the vegan diet or just a plant-based diet, but i'm > not > > a " lifestyle vegan " anymore. becoming vegan for me began as a concern > about > > animals, and gradually grew to encompass the health of humans and the > > earth. as such i have decided that i'd rather use local honey and beeswax > > than petroleum-based products; i'd rather use recycled wool or wool from > > reputable local sources than petroleum-based products or conventional > > cotton; i'd rather use ahimsa silk than something else, and so on. it was > > very frustrating to me, for example, that vegan products abound to > replace > > leather or wool, especially for important products such as shoes, but > they > > use polyester, conventional cotton, vinyl or other terrible alternatives. > > and the overuse of soy has become a very large problems that many veggies > > seem to overlook. ultimately i decided that a compromise had to be made. > > this has effectively annexed me from the vegan community, for the most > part, > > but i feel that my worldview has become much broader than it used to be > and > > perhaps most importantly, i have realized the complete and utter lack of > > purity, the impossibility of utterly eradicating destructiveness or > > exploitation from our lives. someday i'd like to drop out, grow all my > own > > food, build a cob cottage, make my own clothing from fibers i grow > myself, > > and have a sanctuary for farm and other animals - but for right now i > live > > in the world and we all do what we have to do to sleep at night. for me > > that means that i buy peace fleece instead of polyester or conventional > > cotton, while someone else could not live with themselves with such a > > choice. i don't believe either of us are right or wrong. we're just doing > > the best we can. > > > > chandelle > > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Gayle <dilemma5 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net<dilemma5%40earthli nk.net>> > wrote: > > > >> What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the > >> reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those > of > >> us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it > includes > >> much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the > vegan > >> lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. > >> > >> God's Peace, > >> Gayle > >> " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ Og > >> Mandino (1923 - 1996) > >> > >> - > >> robin koloms > >> @gro ups.com <% 40. com><% > 40. com> > >> Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM > >> Re: learning everyday > >> > >> Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not > all > >> vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed > in > >> the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My > mantra is > >> " feel people, not pets " > >> & nbsp; > >> I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned > how > >> incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut > >> their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; > >> & nbsp; > >> As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our > >> drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to > >> recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its > woes. > >> & nbsp; > >> I will get off of my soapbox now. > >> & nbsp; > >> Robin > >> > >> --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi > >> & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> <lebasi.klotko% > 40> & gt; > >> wrote: > >> > >> Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> <lebasi.klotko% > 40> & gt; > >> Re: learning everyday > >> @gro ups.com <% 40. com><% > 40. com> > >> Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM > >> > >> Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians especially > >> vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I have > had > >> many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your > ideals > >> would be. > >> > >> One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow > them > >> to return to the wild. > >> I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and > >> eliminate all pet stores. > >> I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop > >> eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would > you > >> like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are > currently > >> in the world. > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Wouldn't it be as easy as not having roosters around? They'll still lay eggs, because, basically it's like a period if there is no rooster around to, ahem contribute. LOL. I only just looked this up, and I'm not an expert by any means - but I only just read that they can retain sperm for about 10 days - so I guess there is a chance that they could be if you rescue them or have folks being them in from questionable places (just in sorting them, since they're hard to tell apart when they're youngsters). If you have more than one rooster, and they are together, they will fight quite readily, and very violently with each other, so that's something to consider as well. Please correct my info if I " m wrong on anything here though - my aunt kept chickens, for eggs, there was a feed she gave them to supplement which was to help with the stresses of egg laying (they did not have a rooster, just a handful of hens). It was a long, long time ago, and I now some animals do retain sperm for a later date (but I only know of it in snails). Missie On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 6:33 AM, Lebasi <lebasi.klotko wrote: > All I can add is that making sure they are not fertilized it the tricky part > unless they are contained. My mother had them loose and she trippled her > chicken farm very quickly. They hide their eggs. > > > chandelle' <earthmother213 > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:32:51 PM > Re: learning everyday > > marla, i agree with you 100%. but your mentioning of not eating chicken > eggs brings up a question i've been pondering recently. on our future > homestead we certainly intend to have chickens. chicken manure is a > wonderful fertilizer and they are just awesome creatures! we have an animal > sanctuary nearby and i fell in love with the chickens. i collapsed with > laughter the first time i heard them all bock-bock BOCKAHHH!!! with joy - > chickens celebrate in this very clear way every time someone lays an egg and > i remember it as one of the most clearly beautiful moments of my life, to > hear that. so chickens are in, for sure. but there is the rather large > question of their eggs. chickens produce eggs whether you want them to or > not. i asked about the eggs at the sanctuary and was told that they often > feed the eggs back to the chickens or to other animals. feeding eggs to > chickens strikes me as somewhat odd, but maybe that's normal behavior, i > really don't know yet. producing eggs consumes a lot of calcium for the > chickens so the sanctuary workers had the intention of returning as much of > that calcium to the birds as they could. eggs are a great food for other > animals, so i can see that working. we'll go out of our way to be sure that > the eggs are not fertilized since we'll have a limit on how many chickens we > can have around. but i've never felt that eggs were particularly unhealthy, > so i wonder if we'll eat them from time to time. but that brings up all > kinds of cognitive dissonance and doubts about self image and > identification. weird stuff. any thoughts? > > chandelle > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Marla Rose <marla (AT) veganstreet (DOT) com> wrote: > >> I agree with much of what you wrote, Chandelle, though I have no issue >> with >> referring to myself as vegan; I'm happy to be an example to the world of a >> joyful vegan. I have also been having discussions wit my husband for the >> past year or so about the idea of symbiosis with non-human animals, and >> how >> that really is the ideal, environmentally and spiritually. It's the most >> holistic approach, I think. To me, living symbiotically with other animals >> means the same thing as what you described, not drinking their milk (ew!) >> or >> eating their eggs, but finding a relationship that is mutually beneficial. >> Sheering rescued sheep when it is natural to do so (the right time >> seasonally and using gentle methods) while providing shelter, food, care >> and >> companionship in a natural exchange. In fact, under those circumstances, I >> can't find a thing wrong with it. I'd much rather be using natural fibers >> that some petrochemically- based bit of disgustingness or something >> created >> in a sweatshop. It's the same thing with certain bee products under the >> right circumstances, but I'm fine with agave as it is. (I agree that soy - >> especially the overly-processed variety - is much too frequently consumed >> among veg*ns.) >> >> I say all this as someone who has no desire to drop out and homestead, >> though, as a confirmed and happy city-dweller, I do a bit of homesteading >> (canning, gardening, hanging clothes out to dry, using a bike or my feet >> as >> opposed to driving, etc.), which is very far from the miasmic suburban >> environment I was raised in. My mom shakes her head in shock that I am >> rejecting many of her generation's " luxuries " (frozen food, car culture, >> mass media, etc.) and am trying to live simpler, more like my grandmother >> lived. We are all trying to find ways of living that resonate most deeply >> with our core values. >> >> All the best, >> >> Marla >> >> > i agree about the difference between diet and lifestyle. i used to call >> > myself a vegan and i was very clear that i meant that i also did not use >> bee >> > products, leather, wool, silk and so on in addition to my diet. over my >> > more than three years as a vegan i have shifted much of my thinking and >> > while i still never consume animal products, i don't call myself a vegan >> > anymore. i refer to the vegan diet or just a plant-based diet, but i'm >> not >> > a " lifestyle vegan " anymore. becoming vegan for me began as a concern >> about >> > animals, and gradually grew to encompass the health of humans and the >> > earth. as such i have decided that i'd rather use local honey and >> > beeswax >> > than petroleum-based products; i'd rather use recycled wool or wool from >> > reputable local sources than petroleum-based products or conventional >> > cotton; i'd rather use ahimsa silk than something else, and so on. it >> > was >> > very frustrating to me, for example, that vegan products abound to >> replace >> > leather or wool, especially for important products such as shoes, but >> they >> > use polyester, conventional cotton, vinyl or other terrible >> > alternatives. >> > and the overuse of soy has become a very large problems that many >> > veggies >> > seem to overlook. ultimately i decided that a compromise had to be made. >> > this has effectively annexed me from the vegan community, for the most >> part, >> > but i feel that my worldview has become much broader than it used to be >> and >> > perhaps most importantly, i have realized the complete and utter lack of >> > purity, the impossibility of utterly eradicating destructiveness or >> > exploitation from our lives. someday i'd like to drop out, grow all my >> own >> > food, build a cob cottage, make my own clothing from fibers i grow >> myself, >> > and have a sanctuary for farm and other animals - but for right now i >> live >> > in the world and we all do what we have to do to sleep at night. for me >> > that means that i buy peace fleece instead of polyester or conventional >> > cotton, while someone else could not live with themselves with such a >> > choice. i don't believe either of us are right or wrong. we're just >> > doing >> > the best we can. >> > >> > chandelle >> > >> > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Gayle <dilemma5 (AT) earthlink (DOT) >> > net<dilemma5%40earthli nk.net>> >> wrote: >> > >> >> What you wrote, Robin is very true and that is definitely part of the >> >> reason I am vegan, but I think that's why Marla wrote, " Generally those >> of >> >> us who live a vegan lifestyle - as opposed to simply a diet, as it >> includes >> >> much more " . It sounds like you do the vegan diet while she does the >> vegan >> >> lifestyle. There is quite a difference between the two. >> >> >> >> God's Peace, >> >> Gayle >> >> " Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later. " ~~ >> >> Og >> >> Mandino (1923 - 1996) >> >> >> >> - >> >> robin koloms >> >> @gro ups.com <% 40. >> >> com><% >> 40. com> >> >> Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:42 AM >> >> Re: learning everyday >> >> >> >> Without being insensitive or disrespectful to the views of others, not >> all >> >> vegetarians are animal rights proponenets. & nbsp; I have never believed >> in >> >> the whole PETA " a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy " mantra. & nbsp; My >> mantra is >> >> " feel people, not pets " >> >> & nbsp; >> >> I initially stopped eating meat as a teenager (now 48) when I learned >> how >> >> incredibly inefficient meat is as a food source. & nbsp; If Americans cut >> >> their meat consumption by just 10%, we could wipe out hunger. & nbsp; >> >> & nbsp; >> >> As our environment becomes more polluted, our planet heats up, and our >> >> drinking water on much of the planet becomes scarce, humans need to >> >> recognize that cars and cows are the key to curing our planet of its >> woes. >> >> & nbsp; >> >> I will get off of my soapbox now. >> >> & nbsp; >> >> Robin >> >> >> >> --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Lebasi >> >> & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> >> >> <lebasi.klotko% >> 40> & gt; >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Lebasi & lt;lebasi.klotko@ <lebasi.klotko% 40> >> >> <lebasi.klotko% >> 40> & gt; >> >> Re: learning everyday >> >> @gro ups.com <% 40. >> >> com><% >> 40. com> >> >> Saturday, June 14, 2008, 3:59 PM >> >> >> >> Ok I can sense from my short membership here that Vegetarians >> >> especially >> >> vegans have a strong sense of animal rights. I should have known. I >> >> have >> had >> >> many radical views on this subject so I would love to know what your >> ideals >> >> would be. >> >> >> >> One of my ideals is that we stop using horses for anything and allow >> them >> >> to return to the wild. >> >> I would also like to see humans stop breading animals to be pets and >> >> eliminate all pet stores. >> >> I am assuming most Vegans and Vegetarians would want all people to stop >> >> eating meat and using animals. Are their other wishes. & nbsp; What would >> you >> >> like to see happen to the cows, chickens and farm animals that are >> currently >> >> in the world. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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