Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hello, Thanks to everyone who responded to my steel cut oat question. I made them with a greater amount of liquid, overnight, and they were WONDERFUL! Big difference. The kids loved them, too. I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. The last time I went was probably 10 years ago, and it upset me very much. My husband and I don't really make an issue over it for my 10yo stepdaughter, in terms of school trips. However, I don't intend to take my 15 month old at all, as a family or with friends. The issue is, a very nice woman that I sometimes plan play dates with, has suggested going to the zoo together. I was kind of noncommittal, but I wonder if anybody has any suggestions, or been in the same situation. I want to be courteous but explain, and I can't think of how to put my objections. I did kind of steer the conversation elsewhere, and suggested we go to the children's museum, but now I feel like I was kind of a wuss. Thanks, Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hi- Well, I would just be upfront. Tell her what your concerns are- honesty is always the best policy. Lots of people have concerns about circuses; really, this is just one step further. Sure, she may think you're nuts, but she may already given your dietary choices. I would probably say something like, " Seeing all those poor animals confined in cages and not able to run around in their natural habitat really gets to me... " and then add something sort of self-effacing like, " I'm really overly sensitive to this sort of thing, haha. " I have found over the years that these sorts of little jokes really disarms the person I'm talking to and causes them to not feel defensive, which may be their natural inclination. Some might disagree with my method, and that's okay. It has worked well for me. ________________________________ sazra73 <sazra73 Thursday, March 5, 2009 10:50:59 AM Zoo Hello, Thanks to everyone who responded to my steel cut oat question. I made them with a greater amount of liquid, overnight, and they were WONDERFUL! Big difference. The kids loved them, too. I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. The last time I went was probably 10 years ago, and it upset me very much. My husband and I don't really make an issue over it for my 10yo stepdaughter, in terms of school trips. However, I don't intend to take my 15 month old at all, as a family or with friends. The issue is, a very nice woman that I sometimes plan play dates with, has suggested going to the zoo together. I was kind of noncommittal, but I wonder if anybody has any suggestions, or been in the same situation. I want to be courteous but explain, and I can't think of how to put my objections. I did kind of steer the conversation elsewhere, and suggested we go to the children's museum, but now I feel like I was kind of a wuss. Thanks, Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Do you have any animal sanctuaries near you that you could suggest visiting instead? Laura Ballinger Morales ________________________________ sazra73 <sazra73 Thursday, March 5, 2009 11:50:59 AM Zoo Hello, Thanks to everyone who responded to my steel cut oat question. I made them with a greater amount of liquid, overnight, and they were WONDERFUL! Big difference. The kids loved them, too. I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. The last time I went was probably 10 years ago, and it upset me very much. My husband and I don't really make an issue over it for my 10yo stepdaughter, in terms of school trips. However, I don't intend to take my 15 month old at all, as a family or with friends. The issue is, a very nice woman that I sometimes plan play dates with, has suggested going to the zoo together. I was kind of noncommittal, but I wonder if anybody has any suggestions, or been in the same situation. I want to be courteous but explain, and I can't think of how to put my objections. I did kind of steer the conversation elsewhere, and suggested we go to the children's museum, but now I feel like I was kind of a wuss. Thanks, Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I am behind on message so this might have been suggested before... Not all zoos are created equal. You should investigate the zoo in question before deciding to go or not. I know that a lot of zoos only have animals that would not survive in the wild (e.g., eagles with broken wings who cannot fly anymore). They are also vital to the maintenance of near extinct species (breeding programmes etc). Like I said, some zoos are excellent whereas others are, frankly, disgusting. Do some research. Just my opinion. Paula , Laura Ballinger Morales <lballinger wrote: > > Do you have any animal sanctuaries near you that you could suggest visiting instead? > Laura Ballinger Morales > > > > > ________________________________ > sazra73 <sazra73 > > Thursday, March 5, 2009 11:50:59 AM > Zoo > > > Hello, > > Thanks to everyone who responded to my steel cut oat question. I made them with a greater amount of liquid, overnight, and they were WONDERFUL! Big difference. The kids loved them, too. > > I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. The last time I went was probably 10 years ago, and it upset me very much. My husband and I don't really make an issue over it for my 10yo stepdaughter, in terms of school trips. However, I don't intend to take my 15 month old at all, as a family or with friends. > > The issue is, a very nice woman that I sometimes plan play dates with, has suggested going to the zoo together. I was kind of noncommittal, but I wonder if anybody has any suggestions, or been in the same situation. I want to be courteous but explain, and I can't think of how to put my objections. I did kind of steer the conversation elsewhere, and suggested we go to the children's museum, but now I feel like I was kind of a wuss. > > Thanks, > Sara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Unfortunately, researching a zoo would be close to next to impossible unless you know someone who works there. Even if a zoo is well-funded doesn't mean they treat the animals well or all of the animals well. A friend of mine used to work at National Zoo in DC. The animals which were " attractions " might be well treated, but then other " unimportant " animals were left to die at the airport because they weren't picked up in time and they were left outside in their crate on a hot day with no water. She had a lot of horror stories. Talking to her really opened my eyes about zoos...all zoos. That is not to say no one should ever go to a zoo, but even the most well funded or well meaning zoos may not be treating all the animals in a humane way. Linda A Marketplace for a Better World (Cruelty-free, Environmentally-Conscious, and Fair Labor Products) http://triballife.net/ http://triballifeinc.blogspot.com/ My personal blogs: http://veganlinda.blogspot.com/ http://cucarfree.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ peej2e2 <johnsontew Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:13:14 PM Re: Zoo I am behind on message so this might have been suggested before... Not all zoos are created equal. You should investigate the zoo in question before deciding to go or not. I know that a lot of zoos only have animals that would not survive in the wild (e.g., eagles with broken wings who cannot fly anymore). They are also vital to the maintenance of near extinct species (breeding programmes etc). Like I said, some zoos are excellent whereas others are, frankly, disgusting. Do some research. Just my opinion. Paula @gro ups.com, Laura Ballinger Morales <lballinger@ ...> wrote: > > Do you have any animal sanctuaries near you that you could suggest visiting instead? > Laura Ballinger Morales > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > sazra73 <sazra73 > > @gro ups.com > Thursday, March 5, 2009 11:50:59 AM > Zoo > > > Hello, > > Thanks to everyone who responded to my steel cut oat question. I made them with a greater amount of liquid, overnight, and they were WONDERFUL! Big difference. The kids loved them, too. > > I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. The last time I went was probably 10 years ago, and it upset me very much. My husband and I don't really make an issue over it for my 10yo stepdaughter, in terms of school trips. However, I don't intend to take my 15 month old at all, as a family or with friends. > > The issue is, a very nice woman that I sometimes plan play dates with, has suggested going to the zoo together. I was kind of noncommittal, but I wonder if anybody has any suggestions, or been in the same situation. I want to be courteous but explain, and I can't think of how to put my objections. I did kind of steer the conversation elsewhere, and suggested we go to the children's museum, but now I feel like I was kind of a wuss. > > Thanks, > Sara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Speaking of sanctuaries - if anyone is in Florida or will be visiting, there is one in Ocala. We took the kids there last week and it was awesome! They absolutely loved it. It's called Kindred Spirit Sanctuary, you can see their site here: http://www.kindredspiritssanctuary.org. It was about a two hour drive each way for us, but worth it. We'll be doing it once or twice a year. The kids got to get up close and personal with rescued horses, pigs, cows, turkey's, chickens, burros, goats, and more! They even spent a half an hour feeding a bucket of wonderful looking salad to the baby pigs. It was great! I posted some pictures on my facebook page, but they also have set up a facebook page. Sanctuaries are wonderful places to take the kids.... Jacqueline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Interesting and difficult question. Try a websearch for " Zoo Check " ... they used to do work/research in this area. I have a confession: I still love zoos. I don't live near one. But, once a year or so, I take my daughter to the Metro Toronto Zoo. I do think the animals there are well treated and have lots of space. At least, that was the fanfare when the zoo was opened (1970s? 80s?) Recently, I had the experience (Paris) of going to an older zoo, where I do not think the animals had as much space or fun. However, even here I think there is an important education role. At age 3, my daughter must first learn to love and respect animals. Saving them (and the planet) can and will come later. I think she is too young to hear about the downside. I also thought my admission price, if it helped give them the money to make things better, was good. Almost every zoo I can remember seeing promotes conservation messaging and education ... altho, this of course often contrasts with practices (eg meat served in their canteen/snack shops), and I remember seeing an SUV as a raffle fund raiser for a zoo!). So it seems I am defending zoos ... but I agree also with the more critical posts and I can also see there is a counter-argument to everything I say here. ~P [. . .] > I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. [. . .] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I'm with you, Paul. I have mixed feelings about the way the animals are treated, but we do go to the zoo here on occasion- it's more of a 'natural habitat' zoo where they've tried to recreate the habitats. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many of animals would rather be running around in the wild (and being eaten in the wild, and hunted in the wild, and endangered in the wild), but I do think it's a valuable experience where people can see animals from around the world, up close, in a way they would never be able to otherwise. And who knows- it may cause one of our children to fall in love with a particular animal and work for conservation. ________________________________ Paul Falvo <pfalvo Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:45:18 AM Re: Zoo Interesting and difficult question. Try a websearch for " Zoo Check " ... they used to do work/research in this area. I have a confession: I still love zoos. I don't live near one. But, once a year or so, I take my daughter to the Metro Toronto Zoo. I do think the animals there are well treated and have lots of space. At least, that was the fanfare when the zoo was opened (1970s? 80s?) Recently, I had the experience (Paris) of going to an older zoo, where I do not think the animals had as much space or fun. However, even here I think there is an important education role. At age 3, my daughter must first learn to love and respect animals. Saving them (and the planet) can and will come later. I think she is too young to hear about the downside. I also thought my admission price, if it helped give them the money to make things better, was good. Almost every zoo I can remember seeing promotes conservation messaging and education ... altho, this of course often contrasts with practices (eg meat served in their canteen/snack shops), and I remember seeing an SUV as a raffle fund raiser for a zoo!). So it seems I am defending zoos ... but I agree also with the more critical posts and I can also see there is a counter-argument to everything I say here. ~P [. . .] > I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. [. . .] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 The zoo issue is one that has really challenged me as an advocate and a parent, forcing me to truthfully examine my views and become less dogmatic. Before I had a child, it was easy: I was (and remain, to slightly less of a degree) opposed to them and so I never went. Once I had a child, though, and one who was so deeply interested in various animals, it became harder, especially as he's gotten older. In our urban setting, we see, basically, birds, squirrels, dogs and cats: that's it. Seeing how tall a giraffe is, seeing how beautifully the sea lions swim, made these animals more real to him in a way, rather than just an abstraction. Him understanding them better makes him more passionate about protecting them. Of course, I talked with my son a lot and spent a lot of time encouraging critical thinking when I finally accepted that a zoo under certain circumstances was okay by me. We do not go to point and laugh at the animals. We talk about the environment in which they would be happiest. I also take him to farm sanctuaries to see animals in that sort of setting. My issue, really, was that I didn't want my son's interest in animals to wane. And I didn't want our lifestyle to become a rote sort of obligation to him. Movies and books are great supplements, but do not replace seeing another being up close, though I respect those who refuse to go to zoos. One way around any internal conflict I have is that I never pay. The zoo in Chicago is free (I don't pay for parking, either, as we take the bus there) and we are able to get into the other zoo for free with a library pass. We just started going when my son turned five two years ago and was able to understand some more complex concepts more, and we don't go often, maybe once or twice a year at most. It's a complex issue and I appreciate that people are behaving civilly about the topic. Marla > Interesting and difficult question. Try a websearch for " Zoo Check " ... > they used to do work/research in this area. > > I have a confession: I still love zoos. I don't live near one. But, once > a year or so, I take my daughter to the Metro Toronto Zoo. I do think > the animals there are well treated and have lots of space. At least, > that was the fanfare when the zoo was opened (1970s? 80s?) > > Recently, I had the experience (Paris) of going to an older zoo, where I > do not think the animals had as much space or fun. However, even here I > think there is an important education role. At age 3, my daughter must > first learn to love and respect animals. Saving them (and the planet) > can and will come later. I think she is too young to hear about the > downside. I also thought my admission price, if it helped give them the > money to make things better, was good. > > Almost every zoo I can remember seeing promotes conservation messaging > and education ... altho, this of course often contrasts with practices > (eg meat served in their canteen/snack shops), and I remember seeing an > SUV as a raffle fund raiser for a zoo!). > > So it seems I am defending zoos ... but I agree also with the more > critical posts and I can also see there is a counter-argument to > everything I say here. > > ~P > > [. . .] >> I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. > [. . .] > > > --- > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a > qualified health professional. > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health > professional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 I have to pipe in on this one. I have not been to a zoo in years. I took my kids once or twice when they were old enough that it seemed like a good outing and instead I ended up depressed. They are horribly depressing places. You have to admit that even it a few animals seem to have adequate space, etc, there are always more that are in a terrible situation. The monkeys, big cats and elephants almost never get the space needed. You really should make an effort to find a wildlife santuary that you can visit as well as farm sanctuaries. Even if you're not giving them money, your presence at a zoo sends a message that visitors are still coming so everything must be good. Also, if you live in the Chicago area, please google the Lincoln Park Zoo and their treatment of elephants. That zoo has a horrible record that you should know about before visiting. Jill --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Marla Rose <marla wrote: Marla Rose <marla Re: Zoo Monday, March 16, 2009, 3:34 AM The zoo issue is one that has really challenged me as an advocate and a parent, forcing me to truthfully examine my views and become less dogmatic. Before I had a child, it was easy: I was (and remain, to slightly less of a degree) opposed to them and so I never went. Once I had a child, though, and one who was so deeply interested in various animals, it became harder, especially as he's gotten older. In our urban setting, we see, basically, birds, squirrels, dogs and cats: that's it. Seeing how tall a giraffe is, seeing how beautifully the sea lions swim, made these animals more real to him in a way, rather than just an abstraction. Him understanding them better makes him more passionate about protecting them. Of course, I talked with my son a lot and spent a lot of time encouraging critical thinking when I finally accepted that a zoo under certain circumstances was okay by me. We do not go to point and laugh at the animals. We talk about the environment in which they would be happiest. I also take him to farm sanctuaries to see animals in that sort of setting. My issue, really, was that I didn't want my son's interest in animals to wane. And I didn't want our lifestyle to become a rote sort of obligation to him. Movies and books are great supplements, but do not replace seeing another being up close, though I respect those who refuse to go to zoos. One way around any internal conflict I have is that I never pay. The zoo in Chicago is free (I don't pay for parking, either, as we take the bus there) and we are able to get into the other zoo for free with a library pass. We just started going when my son turned five two years ago and was able to understand some more complex concepts more, and we don't go often, maybe once or twice a year at most. It's a complex issue and I appreciate that people are behaving civilly about the topic. Marla > Interesting and difficult question. Try a websearch for " Zoo Check " ... > they used to do work/research in this area. > > I have a confession: I still love zoos. I don't live near one. But, once > a year or so, I take my daughter to the Metro Toronto Zoo. I do think > the animals there are well treated and have lots of space. At least, > that was the fanfare when the zoo was opened (1970s? 80s?) > > Recently, I had the experience (Paris) of going to an older zoo, where I > do not think the animals had as much space or fun. However, even here I > think there is an important education role. At age 3, my daughter must > first learn to love and respect animals. Saving them (and the planet) > can and will come later. I think she is too young to hear about the > downside. I also thought my admission price, if it helped give them the > money to make things better, was good. > > Almost every zoo I can remember seeing promotes conservation messaging > and education ... altho, this of course often contrasts with practices > (eg meat served in their canteen/snack shops), and I remember seeing an > SUV as a raffle fund raiser for a zoo!). > > So it seems I am defending zoos ... but I agree also with the more > critical posts and I can also see there is a counter-argument to > everything I say here. > > ~P > > [. . .] >> I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. > [. . .] > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg. org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg. org/family. This is a discussion list and is not intended to > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a > qualified health professional. > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health > professional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Actually, Jill, I agree with you. I have protested the Lincoln Park Zoo in the past for their treatment of elephants, and, just so you know, they no longer have them. It's not that they suddenly developed a conscience or anything but that is how things have worked out. There is legislation in Chicago city council to try to prohibit the zoo from taking in any more elephants because they've been non-committal about that. I will not pay money to support a zoo, and so they have never benefited financially from me being there, the two or three times I have been. Also, no one has ever taken any sort of count of the two of us being there. I agree with you that they are depressing places: I have pointed out to my son the contrast between the environment they live in in the zoo and what they would experience in nature. We have talked about the natural instincts and habits that are suppressed. If anything, seeing animals in a zoo have deepened his conviction that they don't belong there. I do have a question for you, though. If one of your children really wants to see a giraffe up close, what do you do? I don't live near any natural habitats for them, nor are there any sanctuaries for them near us. Safaris, from what I understand, are not without problems and way beyond our means. It is a sad reality that a zoo is how my child will most likely get to have some experience of a giraffe. It is not lost on either of us how absolutely lacking that environment is. As I said in my message, we do visit animal sanctuaries (the closest to us is hours away in another state) and that is our primary experience with animals in captivity. We volunteer our time there when we can and it is a joyful experience. The wildlife sanctuaries near us are glorified zoos and even sadder than the actual ones, from what I understand. I do do all the things you recommend, Jill, but I also see that for some children to make a connection, it needs to be on a more immediate level. I doubt we'll go back to a zoo as we've done that now, but I don't regret having done it as it did deepen my son's understanding and commitment toward animals. It is a complex issue that I don't think is quite so cut-and-dried, though. Respectfully, Marla Rose > I have to pipe in on this one. > > I have not been to a zoo in years. I took my kids once or twice when they > were old enough that it seemed like a good outing and instead I ended up > depressed. They are horribly depressing places. You have to admit that even > it a few animals seem to have adequate space, etc, there are always more that > are in a terrible situation. The monkeys, big cats and elephants almost never > get the space needed. > You really should make an effort to find a wildlife santuary that you can > visit as well as farm sanctuaries. Even if you're not giving them money, your > presence at a zoo sends a message that visitors are still coming so everything > must be good. > > Also, if you live in the Chicago area, please google the Lincoln Park Zoo and > their treatment of elephants. That zoo has a horrible record that you should > know about before visiting. > > Jill > > --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Marla Rose <marla wrote: > > > Marla Rose <marla > Re: Zoo > > Monday, March 16, 2009, 3:34 AM The zoo issue is one that has really challenged me as an advocate and a > parent, forcing me to truthfully examine my views and become less dogmatic. > Before I had a child, it was easy: I was (and remain, to slightly less of a > degree) opposed to them and so I never went. Once I had a child, though, and > one who was so deeply interested in various animals, it became harder, > especially as he's gotten older. In our urban setting, we see, basically, > birds, squirrels, dogs and cats: that's it. Seeing how tall a giraffe is, > seeing how beautifully the sea lions swim, made these animals more real to > him in a way, rather than just an abstraction. Him understanding them better > makes him more passionate about protecting them. > > Of course, I talked with my son a lot and spent a lot of time encouraging > critical thinking when I finally accepted that a zoo under certain > circumstances was okay by me. We do not go to point and laugh at the > animals. We talk about the environment in which they would be happiest. I > also take him to farm sanctuaries to see animals in that sort of setting. My > issue, really, was that I didn't want my son's interest in animals to wane. > And I didn't want our lifestyle to become a rote sort of obligation to him. > > Movies and books are great supplements, but do not replace seeing another > being up close, though I respect those who refuse to go to zoos. One way > around any internal conflict I have is that I never pay. The zoo in Chicago > is free (I don't pay for parking, either, as we take the bus there) and we > are able to get into the other zoo for free with a library pass. We just > started going when my son turned five two years ago and was able to > understand some more complex concepts more, and we don't go often, maybe > once or twice a year at most. > > It's a complex issue and I appreciate that people are behaving civilly about > the topic. > > Marla > >> Interesting and difficult question. Try a websearch for " Zoo Check " ... >> they used to do work/research in this area. >> >> I have a confession: I still love zoos. I don't live near one. But, once >> a year or so, I take my daughter to the Metro Toronto Zoo. I do think >> the animals there are well treated and have lots of space. At least, >> that was the fanfare when the zoo was opened (1970s? 80s?) >> >> Recently, I had the experience (Paris) of going to an older zoo, where I >> do not think the animals had as much space or fun. However, even here I >> think there is an important education role. At age 3, my daughter must >> first learn to love and respect animals. Saving them (and the planet) >> can and will come later. I think she is too young to hear about the >> downside. I also thought my admission price, if it helped give them the >> money to make things better, was good. >> >> Almost every zoo I can remember seeing promotes conservation messaging >> and education ... altho, this of course often contrasts with practices >> (eg meat served in their canteen/snack shops), and I remember seeing an >> SUV as a raffle fund raiser for a zoo!). >> >> So it seems I am defending zoos ... but I agree also with the more >> critical posts and I can also see there is a counter-argument to >> everything I say here. >> >> ~P >> >> [. . .] >>> I have a question... I don't feel comfortable going to zoos anymore. >> [. . .] >> >> >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >> >> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at >> http://www.vrg. org and for materials especially useful for families go to >> http://www.vrg. org/family. This is a discussion list and is not intended to >> provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a >> qualified health professional. >> >> edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health >> professional. >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Ummm, what do you do if your child wants to see a building in another country up close? What do you do if your child wants to see the moon up close? Or a star? Or another galaxy? I don't understand the idea that we somehow are obligated to show our children whatever they want to see, just because they want to see it. I surely don't understand condoning the oppression of another being just because a child would like to be able to observe that being. Jenn On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Marla Rose <marla wrote: > I do have a question for you, though. If one of your children really wants > to see a giraffe up close, what do you do? I don't live near any natural > habitats for them, nor are there any sanctuaries for them near us. Safaris, > from what I understand, are not without problems and way beyond our means. > It is a sad reality that a zoo is how my child will most likely get to have > some experience of a giraffe. It is not lost on either of us how absolutely > lacking that environment is. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 I understand your point completely, Jacqueline, and I agree with you. I set limits on myself and my child all the time based on ethical decisions. I don't give in to every whim by a long shot. My son did not ask to see the giraffe: he simply couldn't conceive of something so tall given his frame of reference. I could say " As tall as our house or as tall as that branch on that tree, " but it would still be abstract. I think seeing a giraffe up close helped my son to realize that they weren't pretend. He has seen them once and has no burning desire to see them again. Now, though, he knows they're real and knows that a zoo is not the ideal or appropriate place for them to live. Believe me, we didn't take the decision to go to the zoo lightly and we haven't done it frivolous. I am not a supporter of zoos and it's not a part of our lives. I think, though, balancing it all out, it was more important for my urban-dwelling child to know these animals were real, have real habitats we need to protect, than to refuse to consider it. I did wait until he was old enough to conceive some of the issues, rather than just point and gawk. As I said, for some of us, it's not cut-and-dried, though I totally understand and agree with your point, I am glad he now can see a giraffe in his mind's eye - giraffes are no longer abstractions and are flesh-and-blood real - and I believe that he will be a stronger protector and advocate for animals because of it. We've just gone twice and I let me son know both times this is not for entertainment but so the animals can be more real to him. I don't plan to go again but I don't regret having gone. Marla > Marla asked: " I do have a question for you, though. If one of your > children really wants > to see a giraffe up close, what do you do? " > > Personally I don't think we should feel that we are entitled to see > everything up close that we want to see up close. I hope this makes > sense, but there are limits and I think our kids should be taught that. > Should we hold captive one of every species on the planet just in case a > child wants to see it up close and can't be appeased by looking at > pictures online? I don't think so... > --- > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a > qualified health professional. > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health > professional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I have a vegetarian friend who has a son older than my child. They visit zoos as an educational experience regarding humane treatment. After each visit they write a letter to the zoo outlining the good and bad points of the captivity in that zoo. If it is obvious that the management has no interest in the condition of the animals they start a campaign - letter writing to the local paper and political figures and other actions they can find. My friend feels her son has learned much about empathy and compassion, the animals' natural requirements and rights to a good life and activism. Carrol , Marla Rose <marla wrote: > > Actually, Jill, I agree with you. I have protested the Lincoln Park Zoo in > the past for their treatment of elephants, and, just so you know, they no > longer have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks, Jacqueline! You put that so much better than I ever do. Jill --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Jacqueline Bodnar <jb wrote: Jacqueline Bodnar <jb RE: Zoo Monday, March 16, 2009, 8:47 PM Marla asked: " I do have a question for you, though. If one of your children really wants to see a giraffe up close, what do you do? " Personally I don't think we should feel that we are entitled to see everything up close that we want to see up close. I hope this makes sense, but there are limits and I think our kids should be taught that. Should we hold captive one of every species on the planet just in case a child wants to see it up close and can't be appeased by looking at pictures online? I don't think so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 As I explained, it was to make giraffes REAL to my son, not to indulge every last whim of his. In his mind, they were like cartoon creatures because they seemed so unreal. He understand well, perhaps better than a child who has not witnessed a zoo, the problems inherent in them. I am not a supporter of zoos and I am not an apologist for them: I have protested the Lincoln Park Zoo while people shouted obnoxious things at me so I don't feel that I need to explain this any longer. I'm pretty much done with this thread, too, because the tone has become disrespectful and dogmatic. I'm fine with debate, but repeating the same thing over and over to me like I am unaware of the problems with zoos and I'm some sort of overindulgent mother of a spoiled child is getting very tiresome. Marla > Ummm, what do you do if your child wants to see a building in another > country up close? > What do you do if your child wants to see the moon up close? Or a > star? Or another galaxy? > I don't understand the idea that we somehow are obligated to show our > children whatever they > want to see, just because they want to see it. I surely don't > understand condoning the oppression > of another being just because a child would like to be able to observe > that being. > > Jenn > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Marla Rose <marla wrote: > >> I do have a question for you, though. If one of your children really wants >> to see a giraffe up close, what do you do? I don't live near any natural >> habitats for them, nor are there any sanctuaries for them near us. Safaris, >> from what I understand, are not without problems and way beyond our means. >> It is a sad reality that a zoo is how my child will most likely get to have >> some experience of a giraffe. It is not lost on either of us how absolutely >> lacking that environment is. >> >> > > > --- > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a > qualified health professional. > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health > professional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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