(CN - IN) Barun Mitra waxes eloquent on sustainable use of tiger parts

April 18, 2007

Would be interesting to see which EXPERTS, CONSERVATIONISTS, and

NATIONS finally agree to be party in TIGER FARMING and help sustain

the so called GLOBAL DEMAND OF TCM.

Can somebody find out who the honourable delegates are, who have taken

part at the meet in Kathmandu ?

Shame on them to be attending such meets sponsored by the MURDERERS OF

WILDLIFE !

On 18 Apr 2007 10:01:35 -0700,

wrote:

>

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=5dd1a61d-7002-49c2-ada\

a-2b2bba3e0270

> &

>

> Commerce for conservation

> Ads By Google

> *Barun Mitra <http://www.hindustantimes.com/Search/Search.aspx?q=Barun

> Mitra & nodate=1>*

> April 17, 2007

> First Published: 00:11 IST(18/4/2007)

> Last Updated: 01:32 IST(18/4/2007)

> The international gathering of tiger conservationists in Kathmandu this week

> will be in a sombre mood. The number of wild tigers is at an all time low —

> between 2,000 and 3,000 — probably half of what was believed a few years

> ago.

>

> The decibel of the debate over the relationship between economic development

> and environmental quality is at an all-time high. Are conservation and

> commerce compatible? Is the consumer demand for tiger parts necessarily a

> prescription for the possible extinction of tigers in the wild? The meet is

> an opportunity to undertake a serious re-evaluation of existing tiger

> conservation strategies. Interestingly, for the first time, an official

> Chinese delegation is participating in the deliberations, triggering further

> speculation.

>

> Through the last three decades of tiger conservation, commerce and

> conservation have been pitted against each other. The principal focus of the

> present conservation strategy has been to prohibit all forms of consumption,

> hunting of tigers, and trading in tiger parts. Policing has been made the

> cornerstone of tiger conservation polices.

>

> So we have the paradox of high-value wildlife resources placed outside the

> discipline of market forces, and some of the poorest people in the world

> living in close proximity to such resources, without any incentive to

> conserve and manage sustainably.

>

> But when there is a demand from consumers in the market, such a policy

> prescription is an open invitation to criminals and smugglers to profit from

> the poaching of tigers. Thus, poaching has continued to pose a major threat

> to wild tigers. In addition, about 75 per cent of the alleged tiger parts

> seized in China and sent to wildlife forensic labs for testing, are being

> found to be fake. Clearly, when trade is outlawed, only outlaws trade.

>

> But tigers are a renewable resource. They breed very easily in captivity. In

> fact, China has, over the past decade or so, almost perfected the art of

> managing and breeding a large number of tigers in captivity, currently

> estimated at 5,000 animals. Bringing some of these tigers into the market to

> meet the demand for tiger parts, by legalising its trade, could make

> poaching economically unattractive.

>

> There are many examples of species thriving under the discipline of

> commerce. Even as the tiger conservation policy prohibited commerce in the

> 1970s, crocodile farming was taking root. Today, India continues with its

> policy of keeping crocodiles outside the scope of commerce. But crocodiles

> have become very successful commercial animals elsewhere. Two million

> crocodiles are estimated to be harvested each year in Australia, South

> Africa and the US. Yet, there is hardly any evidence of crocodiles being

> poached in India or elsewhere because of market demand.

>

> The reason is simple. If an international brand name wants a large volume of

> crocodile skins, at a competitive price, it has no reason to seek a poacher

> when it can procure these from a legal farmer.

>

> Further, it is estimated that in the US the annual economic activity from a

> range of environmental activities, including nature treks and bird watching

> to fishing and hunting, generates revenue of over $ 100 billion. Big cats

> like tigers, lions and leopards can help transform the lives of some of the

> poorest sections of the population in poor countries.

>

> Most rich Western countries have been able to restore and improve their

> environmental quality with economic development. China seems poised to reap

> the environmental dividend soon.

>

> Pressure on the natural habitats of impoverished people poses, by far, the

> biggest threat to biodiversity and tigers — much more than poaching does.

> China's economic growth in recent decades is credited to have moved a couple

> of hundred million rural folks away from the country side. In some of the

> remote rural regions, villages are depopulating at a very fast rate. This

> has helped lower the pressure on natural resources of land, forest and water

> bodies.

>

> China has identified a couple of such areas, original habitat of the south

> China tiger (SCT), for a bold experiment in 're-wilding' and re-introduction

> of one of the most endangered sub-species of tigers.

>

> Clearly, the declining human pressure on forest and wildlife — a result of

> increasing alternative economic opportunities — coupled with breeding

> facilities to meet the demand for tiger parts will dramatically alter the

> future of tigers in the wild, securing the future of these majestic animals.

> Tiger conservation provides an opportunity to bring a new dimension of

> cooperation between China and India.

>

> India has had a lot of trouble handling large cats in captivity. Last year,

> about half a dozen big cats died in the Delhi zoo. In 2000, a dozen

> mysteriously died at Nandankanan zoo over a span of a week. In China,

> breeders have managed to handle hundreds of animals in close proximity

> without any major calamity.

>

> India has a lot of expertise in terms of people who have the experience of

> managing forests and tiger habitats. These people provided a ready pool of

> talent to help China restore and rebuild some of its tiger habitats.

> Finally, wildlife conservation, rather than becoming a drain on the national

> exchequer, could become a major contributor to the national economy.

>

> The choice before the delegates in Kathmandu this week could not have been

> starker. Should they harness the power of commerce for the cause of

> conservation? Or should they continue to condemn commerce? The tiger is at a

> crossroads, but its future depends on the choice we make between these two

> scripts.

>

> *Barun Mitra is director of Liberty Institute*

>

April 19, 2007

Hello Shubroto,

I am unable to open the links for some reason! Pardon my ignorance about

people and organizations.....but Firstly who is Barun Mitra??? Is he a

reformed poacher whose sentiments still reside in the poaching community or

is he some *money-ONLY *oriented businessman involved in skin trade???

*

" But tigers are a renewable resource. They breed very easily in captivity.

In fact, China has, over the past decade or so, almost perfected the art of

managing and breeding a large number of tigers in captivity, currently

estimated at 5,000 animals. " *I have been researching on tigers for over a

decade now, both in the wild and the captive ones and the tigers bred in

farms.... and (those bred in farms) I call them *TIGOYS - Cross breed of a

tiger and a toy. *(Like how we a lion +tiger = liger). They hardly posses

any instincts of a true 'Tiger' which anyone who has some knowledge about

tigers would vouch for.

* " The reason is simple. If an international brand name wants a large volume

of crocodile skins, at a competitive price, it has no reason to seek a

poacher when it can procure these from a legal farmer. "

*What about the smaller players who will not go to these whole sale dealers

cos of various contraints??? Its like how some of us go to the whole sale

market in an SUV buy a lot of things and get back as compared to some who go

on a motor bike to a near buy shop to pick up only what is required! So the

poachers are never going to run out of business and they will not because

they have tasted big bucks..... or should I correct myself.... the skin

trade mafia gets big bucks out of this, the actual poachers take home a mere

Rs 5000 - 10000 (US $100-$200) for killing a tiger from the wild, but which

to them is unfortunately big bucks.

*

" India has had a lot of trouble handling large cats in captivity. Last year,

about half a dozen big cats died in the Delhi zoo. In 2000, a dozen

mysteriously died at Nandankanan zoo over a span of a week. In China,

breeders have managed to handle hundreds of animals in close proximity

without any major calamity. " *Mysteriously?? Ok......We believe that....LOL.

Well if Chinese farms had bred tigers they would have had issues.... Why

would they be having a problem now?

*

" India has a lot of expertise in terms of people who have the experience of

managing forests and tiger habitats. These people provided a ready pool of

talent to help China restore and rebuild some of its tiger habitats.

Finally, wildlife conservation, rather than becoming a drain on the national

exchequer, could become a major contributor to the national economy. " *I am

not sure which tiger habitat you are talking about? And who are these so

called experts? Poachers, smulgglers? And national economy????? I wouldnt be

surprised if they propose human prostitution as another source of 'national

economy'..... This is ridiculous!!!

*

" The tiger is at a crossroads, but its future depends on the choice we make

between these two scripts. " *They are not at cross roads....they have the

noose around their necks....and if people like these were to make the

choice....

A bunch of money hungry *businessness* man are deciding the fate of a

magnificent (endangered) *animal*! And they call it a conference??? I hope

the tiger scent marked that venue (read between the lines).

**

*T*hanks,

*Pablo*.

**

** * *If someone has someth*ing to ask *or feels I *have *got anything wrong

*,* please contact me on +86 - 13776332018 (local C*hina #). *I am curren*tly

*in China this week*....* coincidently.*...* documenting *(researching) *a

few *'things'* about tigers in captivity and tiger farming.

**I wanted to elaborate on every alphabet on that rather

stupid article....may be I will do that on an individual level once.*

On 4/19/07, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote:

>

> Would be interesting to see which EXPERTS, CONSERVATIONISTS, and

> NATIONS finally agree to be party in TIGER FARMING and help sustain

> the so called GLOBAL DEMAND OF TCM.

>

> Can somebody find out who the honourable delegates are, who have taken

> part at the meet in Kathmandu ?

>

> Shame on them to be attending such meets sponsored by the MURDERERS OF

> WILDLIFE !

>

> On 18 Apr 2007 10:01:35 -0700,

> wrote:

> >

>

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=5dd1a61d-7002-49c2-ada\

a-2b2bba3e0270

> > &

> >

> > Commerce for conservation

> > Ads By Google

> > *Barun Mitra <

> http://www.hindustantimes.com/Search/Search.aspx?q=Barun

> > Mitra & nodate=1>*

> > April 17, 2007

> > First Published: 00:11 IST(18/4/2007)

> > Last Updated: 01:32 IST(18/4/2007)

> > The international gathering of tiger conservationists in Kathmandu this

> week

> > will be in a sombre mood. The number of wild tigers is at an all time

> low —

> > between 2,000 and 3,000 — probably half of what was believed a few

> years

> > ago.

> >

> > The decibel of the debate over the relationship between economic

> development

> > and environmental quality is at an all-time high. Are conservation and

> > commerce compatible? Is the consumer demand for tiger parts necessarily

> a

> > prescription for the possible extinction of tigers in the wild? The meet

> is

> > an opportunity to undertake a serious re-evaluation of existing tiger

> > conservation strategies. Interestingly, for the first time, an official

> > Chinese delegation is participating in the deliberations, triggering

> further

> > speculation.

> >

> > Through the last three decades of tiger conservation, commerce and

> > conservation have been pitted against each other. The principal focus of

> the

> > present conservation strategy has been to prohibit all forms of

> consumption,

> > hunting of tigers, and trading in tiger parts. Policing has been made

> the

> > cornerstone of tiger conservation polices.

> >

> > So we have the paradox of high-value wildlife resources placed outside

> the

> > discipline of market forces, and some of the poorest people in the world

> > living in close proximity to such resources, without any incentive to

> > conserve and manage sustainably.

> >

> > But when there is a demand from consumers in the market, such a policy

> > prescription is an open invitation to criminals and smugglers to profit

> from

> > the poaching of tigers. Thus, poaching has continued to pose a major

> threat

> > to wild tigers. In addition, about 75 per cent of the alleged tiger

> parts

> > seized in China and sent to wildlife forensic labs for testing, are

> being

> > found to be fake. Clearly, when trade is outlawed, only outlaws trade.

> >

> > But tigers are a renewable resource. They breed very easily in

> captivity. In

> > fact, China has, over the past decade or so, almost perfected the art of

> > managing and breeding a large number of tigers in captivity, currently

> > estimated at 5,000 animals. Bringing some of these tigers into the

> market to

> > meet the demand for tiger parts, by legalising its trade, could make

> > poaching economically unattractive.

> >

> > There are many examples of species thriving under the discipline of

> > commerce. Even as the tiger conservation policy prohibited commerce in

> the

> > 1970s, crocodile farming was taking root. Today, India continues with

> its

> > policy of keeping crocodiles outside the scope of commerce. But

> crocodiles

> > have become very successful commercial animals elsewhere. Two million

> > crocodiles are estimated to be harvested each year in Australia, South

> > Africa and the US. Yet, there is hardly any evidence of crocodiles being

> > poached in India or elsewhere because of market demand.

> >

> > The reason is simple. If an international brand name wants a large

> volume of

> > crocodile skins, at a competitive price, it has no reason to seek a

> poacher

> > when it can procure these from a legal farmer.

> >

> > Further, it is estimated that in the US the annual economic activity

> from a

> > range of environmental activities, including nature treks and bird

> watching

> > to fishing and hunting, generates revenue of over $ 100 billion. Big

> cats

> > like tigers, lions and leopards can help transform the lives of some of

> the

> > poorest sections of the population in poor countries.

> >

> > Most rich Western countries have been able to restore and improve their

> > environmental quality with economic development. China seems poised to

> reap

> > the environmental dividend soon.

> >

> > Pressure on the natural habitats of impoverished people poses, by far,

> the

> > biggest threat to biodiversity and tigers — much more than poaching

> does.

> > China's economic growth in recent decades is credited to have moved a

> couple

> > of hundred million rural folks away from the country side. In some of

> the

> > remote rural regions, villages are depopulating at a very fast rate.

> This

> > has helped lower the pressure on natural resources of land, forest and

> water

> > bodies.

> >

> > China has identified a couple of such areas, original habitat of the

> south

> > China tiger (SCT), for a bold experiment in 're-wilding' and

> re-introduction

> > of one of the most endangered sub-species of tigers.

> >

> > Clearly, the declining human pressure on forest and wildlife — a result

> of

> > increasing alternative economic opportunities — coupled with breeding

> > facilities to meet the demand for tiger parts will dramatically alter

> the

> > future of tigers in the wild, securing the future of these majestic

> animals.

> > Tiger conservation provides an opportunity to bring a new dimension of

> > cooperation between China and India.

> >

> > India has had a lot of trouble handling large cats in captivity. Last

> year,

> > about half a dozen big cats died in the Delhi zoo. In 2000, a dozen

> > mysteriously died at Nandankanan zoo over a span of a week. In China,

> > breeders have managed to handle hundreds of animals in close proximity

> > without any major calamity.

> >

> > India has a lot of expertise in terms of people who have the experience

> of

> > managing forests and tiger habitats. These people provided a ready pool

> of

> > talent to help China restore and rebuild some of its tiger habitats.

> > Finally, wildlife conservation, rather than becoming a drain on the

> national

> > exchequer, could become a major contributor to the national economy.

> >

> > The choice before the delegates in Kathmandu this week could not have

> been

> > starker. Should they harness the power of commerce for the cause of

> > conservation? Or should they continue to condemn commerce? The tiger is

> at a

> > crossroads, but its future depends on the choice we make between these

> two

> > scripts.

> >

> > *Barun Mitra is director of Liberty Institute*

> >

April 20, 2007

Dear Azam and Pablo,

I am attaching a short profile of Barun

Mitra from the Competitive Enterprise Institute that you may find

interesting. His ideas have been challenged by many, including Valmik Thapar

and Jay Mazoomdar in India. IFAW has also refuted his logic.

Jay Mazoomdar's rebuttal of Barun Mitra's theory of sustainable utilisation

can be read here :

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/16773._.html

Mazoomdar makes it explicitly clear that " Chasing his market dream, Mitra

should remember that though technology may have withstood the Made-in-China

model, ecology won't. "

Regarding Azam's concerns on the Kathmandu gathering, I suggest you take a

look at the website of the International Wildlife Management Consortium to

learn about the implications of culling of animals for sustainable use. (

www.iwmc.org)

This website was used as a platform to present an article on tiger

conservation in India as part of the Prime Minister's Tiger Task Force.

(Link here : http://www.iwmc.org/IWMC-Forum/Articles/050318-1.htm )

You can draw your own conclusions.

Thanks for writing. And Pablo, you can return with some new insight on

breeding of Chinese tigers and share it on AAPN.

Best wishes,

http://www.cei.org/pages/simon.cfm

BARUN S. MITRA

Barun Mitra is a founder and director of the Liberty Institute, a

non-profit, independent public-policy research and educational organization

based in New Delhi, India. The Liberty Institute develops market-based

responses to contemporary social, economic and environmental issues to

promote awareness of the institutional pillars of a free society-individual

rights, the rule of law, limited government and free markets. Mitra's

writings on the environment, trade and technology issues have appeared in

books, magazines and a broad range of national and international newspapers.

He also edited a volume in honor of the late Julian Simon, Population: The

Ultimate Resource, which was awarded the 2001 Sir Anthony Fisher Memorial

International Prize for best book from a new think tank. Prior to founding

the Liberty Institute, Mitra was a freelance journalist. He holds an

undergraduate degree in electrical engineering and a post-graduate degree in

Marine engineering.

*INSIGHTS OF BARUN MITRA *

* " One hundred years ago 1m Indians died annually because of drought and

malnutrition while annual floods and hurricanes killed about 100,000 people

during the monsoon season. Pristine coastlines and natural mangroves did

little to protect the poor then, but now, as a result of development, the

monsoon kills only 10,000. " *

The Sunday Times (UK), December 5, 2004

* " The State generally commands logistical resources such as communication

and transportation to launch relief and rehabilitation operations of such

magnitude. However, part of the problem - the logistical bottlenecks - is

also the result of such government control. It is claimed that

profit-seeking operations of the marketplace are unsuitable for the task of

disaster relief. Actually, the profit motive is one of the most powerful

incentives devised by man to get anything done. " *

Hindustan Times, January 6, 2005

* " The[Kyoto] Protocol introduces higher taxes on fuels and carbons, instead

of dismantling the tariffs and taxes that encourage efficient energy use. It

overlooks the basic principle that economic freedom creates wealth and a

clean environment. " *

Far Eastern Economic Revie*w*, March 1, 2005

Barun Mitra's articles have appeared in many publications of note. He has

written the *Asian Wall Street Journal

<http://users2.wsj.com/lmda/do/checkLogin?a=t & d=wsj & sd=users2 & url=http%3A%2F%2Fo\

nline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2F0%2C%2CSB110530917343121001%2C00.html%3Fmod%3Dopinion%\

26ojcontent%3Dotep>

*(subscription req.), the *Indian

Express<http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=68938>

*,

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php Conservation, Economics

& Human Nature by *Joe Katzman* at August 2, 2005 5:41 AM

[image: Tiger swim]

Tyger, Tyger, burning bright

In the forests of the night,

What immortal hand or eye

Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

India's tigers are highly

endangered<http://news./s/nm/environment_india_tigers_dc>,

and there are a number of laws and organizations devoted to saving

them<http://www.saveindiastigers.co.uk/>.

Yet their numbers continue to dwindle. Barun Mitra

writes<http://www.techcentralstation.com/060905H.html>

:

" If we are really concerned about the fate of wildlife, we need to ask why

it is that in the US -- where hunting species such as blackbuck is permitted

-- the population of blackbacks in the US state of Texas alone is 40,000,

compared to only 25,000 in the whole of India. Equally, where in the US

trade of live tigers is permitted, tiger numbers are in excess of 15,000,

where in India, their numbers have dwindled to around 3,500. "

Hmmm, point acknowledged. Meanwhile, this was a sobering statistic set:

" Conservationists estimate that the worldwide illegal trade in forest

products and wildlife is between USD 10-12 billion, over half of it coming

from SE Asia alone. "

Yikes.

Fortunately, there is potential good news here as well. Barun Mitra notes

that tigers breed very easily, even in captivity. Yet most places

deliberately avoid breeding them, even as scarcity continues to make

poaching in the wild ever-more profitable.

Hmm.

Mitra follows up with a look at the current economic incentives around

preservation vs. hunting. It sums up as an attenuated version of what

Wretchard calls Death By

Insanity<http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004/12/death-by-insanity-as-reuters.ht\

ml>.

As Mitra notes:

" The Indian experience till a few years ago provides the best illustration

of the tragic consequences of dysfunctional economic regulations. The babus

wielded the power, smugglers oiled the wheels, blackmarketeers made a

killing and the law enforcers took their cut. The poor consumer bore the

brunt, as the economy ground to a halt. "

The tigers haven't done so great, either. The current approach clearly isn't

working.

In what distant deeps or skies

Burnt the fire of thine eyes?

On what wings dare he aspire?

What the hand dare seize the fire?

Ecological solution based on free markets are somewhat unusual in the field,

which has generally been dominated by statists and socialists. Given the

failure of attempts in this mold to stem the ongoing decline of India's

tigers, for instance, it's worth broadening the way the field treats these

questions. Free market thinking needs to be a much larger aspect of the

critique (for reasons a schoolchild

understands<http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006378.php>),

and a larger part of the solutions palette as well.

But the Barun Mitra article I link to is only a brief window into such

thinking, not the core of a tiger protection alternative. At least, not yet.

If free market greens like Mitra's Liberty

Institute<http://www.libertyindia.org/>want to play in this kind of

field and kick its effectiveness up a notch or

three, they'll have to step up their game, too.

It's not enough to note that many of the current approaches to environmental

protection ignore basic human motivations and work poorly, or to question

the motives of those who continue pushing such solutions in ways that

coincidentally increase their own power. If we truly wish to fill in the

gaps of our current failures, we'll need more than just a critique. We'll

need real alternatives, too.

When the stars threw down their spears

And water'd heaven with their tears,

Did he smile his work to see?

Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Don't get me wrong. Looking at the current set of imbalanced incentives is a

valuable contribution. It's hard to read it and imagine that the current

course of action can succeed.

So what replaces that? And before we offer an answer, how about some more

questions for free marketers to take up.

For instance, I'd like to see something that addresses the demand limitation

effects of prohibition re: the tigers, and see some free market analysis

that looks dispassionately on the likely result of removing the ban. To

that, I'd add questions like:

- Which economic spin off industries might the current ban be

forestalling?

- Which ones is it currently enabling?

- What happens after the ban is gone, but before breeding has a chance

to produce the tigers required to meet demand?

- Yet without the ban's removal, why breed for profit?

- How to resolve the catch 22?

- Even if we do resolve the catch 22, will there be enough tigers to

represent a solution, or will this just deliver a coup de grace to the wild

population?

- Any other experiments we could do, or ways to start small, in order

to refine our understanding of the changes? Any analogous situatons we can

point to?

- Or is it so late that we must simply act and try something new,

because delay could well mean total failure anyway?

That's what I mean when I say that free market ecologists will have to begin

to offer alternatives. That means full-fledged policy proposals that examine

and address angles like the ones I've suggested here, not just blanket

ideological arguments.

There's no shortage of work to do, and no shortage of gaps and failures in

the field. If free market greens do step up, therefore, all of us stand to

benefit. Including the tigers.

Tyger, Tyger, burning bright

In the forests of the night,

What immortal hand or eye

Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

*UPDATE:* The Tigers will need the help. Reader Ruth writes in with

this: " Indian

task force says tigers under

siege<http://news./s/nm/environment_india_tigers_dc> " .

" The task force said India would have to work with China to stop huge

illegal trade in tiger body parts. Tiger organs, teeth, bones and penises

are used in traditional Chinese medicine. "

Let's see, we're going to ask for help from a Top 3 nation on all the global

corruption reports, which happens to have a culture whose native medicine

tells people tiger parts will help them feel better/ live longer, and for

which people will therefore pay exorbitant sums and go to strenuous effort.

Yeah, that'll work.

The current approach can only end in one outcome.

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Comments

#1 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c1> from Ruth at 12:20

pm on Aug 02, 2005

Some constructive thinking. I suggest some kudos to WWF which has made it

more prestigious to wear their logo on a t-shirt than a fur on some one's

back.

#2 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c2> from

Grim<http://grimbeorn.blogspot.com/>at 1:04

pm on Aug 02, 2005

Why not provide an alternative market for tiger skins, etc.? We could breed

them here in the United States (who knew so many people did already?), as

many as you want, and sell them at market prices. The ones who are born wild

could continue to be protected vigorously, preferably by rangers with

shoot-on-sight authority.

In theory, the ready availability of tiger products at market prices,

combined with the immediate captial penalty for poaching, should undercut

the incentive to hunt wild tigers to the point that it isn't done.

Meanwhile, American men would have an all-new way to cut their teeth. You

wanna be a bronco buster? How about a tiger tamer? You wanna wrestle steers?

How about great big cats?

Seems like a win-win to me.

#3 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c3> from Finlay at 3:02

pm on Aug 02, 2005

There is a difference betwen 15,000 tigers living in captivity and 3,500 in

the wild. It's a lot easier to keep captive tigers than it is to maintain

the amount of wilderness requires to support that many wild tiger, so the

comparison is not apples to apples.

#4 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c4> from Tom

Volckhausen at 4:13 pm on Aug 02, 2005

The original posting focuses only on the tiger, but the real issue is

protecting the ecosystem of which the tiger is top predator and symbol.

Captive tigers in cages are a poor and lonely substitute for an intact

Indian forest with all its' other inhabitants. Successful examples of " free

market " ecosystem protection are rare to non-existent, while most of the

planet uses the government run national park approach with great success.

My suspicion is that " free market " approaches fit your ideology, so of

course you recommend them, but the simplest and most practical approach is

to define larger parks and natural reserves and protect them with adequate

enforcement. The " government-run " approach is working for the grizzly bear,

the buffalo, the grey wolf, etc.,etc. so why should India be any different?

" Free Market " approaches were responsible for many (most?) of recent species

extinctions and collapse (North American cod fishery collapse as a result of

market competition, passenger pigeon market hunted to extinction, many

whale/fish species commercially harvested to population collapse and

possible extinction).

Tiger populations are being driven down by classical market dynamics. As

tigers become more scarce, supply of tiger parts for Asian

medicine/superstion declines against a rising demand. Moving along the

supply demand curves means that the last tiger should fetch an astronomical

price.

To paraphrase Amory Lovins " Markets make a good servant, a poor master, and

a lousy religion " .

#5 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c5> from PD Shaw at 4:28

pm on Aug 02, 2005

For an opposing view, consider the bears of Romania. In 1950, a few years

after going communist, Romania had about 860 bears. By 1988, the last year

of Ceausescu's dictatorship, there were 7,780 bears, or fifteen times as

many bears as are in the comparably sized Yellowstone Park bear sanctuary.

Free markets cannot be credited with these gains: it was Ceasusescu's

obsession with hunting and his willingness to put the resources of the State

into farming bears *and* the ban on private ownership of firearms.

This info is taken from an Atlantic Montly

article<http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200307/quammen>that may be

subscription only.

#6 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c6> from Joe

Katzman<http://windsofchange.net/>at 6:06

pm on Aug 02, 2005

PD Shaw, consider Ceaucescu's methods. Poor trade.

And Tom, the tiger is ecosystem-dependent as an apex predator. But even if

we preserved the ecosystem, looks like they're still toast given the current

demand for tiger parts and hence economic incentives.

As for the cod fishery, you're talking to a Canadian here. That was the

classic socialist " regulated commons " approach at work, driven by political

pressure not free market incentives. The fact that one can sell something

does not a free market make. Ownership, tradeability, et. al. are also

required - and solutions like tradeable permits based on science rather than

political decrees were suggested. But they were consistently rejected

because the politicians wanted to be seen as munificently pushing for catch

permits and hence jobs.

Which brings us to where we are today, with no cod fishery to speak of at

all. This kind of failure is hardly unique, and unless the field is expanded

to include free market critiques and solutions, we can expect more in this

pattern.

Sounds like there's someone protecting an ideology here, and it isn't me.

#7 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c7> from Rob

Lyman<http://roblyman.blogspot.com/>at 6:28

pm on Aug 02, 2005

*the simplest and most practical approach is to define larger parks and

natural reserves and protect them with adequate enforcement.*

That works fine in wealthy nations, but it's a failure in many poorer ones

due to lack of resources and attendant corruption. Apparently your

" solution " is already a failure in India, so re-proposing it is silly.

A " free-market " solution might be allowing tiger ranching, driving down the

market price of tiger parts. That takes the pressure off the wild tigers,

and taxes on it could fund your national parks and their rangers. It's at

least worth a thought instead of dismissal.

The bison and grizzly are both game species in the US, by the way, and if

the grey wolf makes a big comeback, it will end up being hunted as a

varmint. So we have more than just a " national park " approach going for us

there, too. To borrow your own phrase: " Why should India be any different? "

#8 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c8> from

GUYK<http://charmingjustcharming.blogspot.com/>at 8:27

pm on Aug 02, 2005

I have read that Tigers in India prefer to eat Indians over any other diet.

That well could be why their numbers are dwindling! It could be that the

Indians don't want to be the next meal for a Tiger.

#9 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c9> from PD Shaw at 8:40

pm on Aug 02, 2005

I guess one of the questions that we have to ask is why are we " saving " the

tiger or the blackbuck?

Personally, I find no value in canned hunt of any animal, so the fact that

an increasing proportion of exotic animals exist in U.S. hunting ranches

versus their natural habitats means nothing to me. Actually, I'm a little

hostile, but I digress.

I don't think we need to worry about tiger or blackbucks dying out, but some

of their dependent species may not be so lucky.

I agree with Tom that the reason to preserve the Tiger is to preserve the

ecosystem of which it is part. And I really know of no way to do that short

of control of the habitat. This is difficult in countries with weak

governments, poor economies and/or inadequate law enforcement. Westerners

interested in preserving the ecosystem need to make the contributions

necessary to buy the land and police the land. This seems doable in India,

probably an insane idea in parts of East Africa. The Nature Conservancy does

that type of work in this hemisphere.

#10 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c10> from Rob

Lyman<http://roblyman.blogspot.com/>at 9:20

pm on Aug 02, 2005

PD, Tom,

The linked article seems to suggest that the problem isn't habitat

destruction, but illegal hunting. Enforcement, at the moment, doesn't seem

to be working, for whatever reason. So private hunting ranches (to which I

am also mildly hostile) and straightforward tiger ramching may be a key

parts of the solution.

#11 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c11> from PD

Shaw at 10:32

pm on Aug 02, 2005

*The linked article seems to suggest that the problem isn't habitat

destruction, but illegal hunting.*

Well, I'd argue that the linked article from the Liberty Institute ignores

the issue of habitat destruction and offers a cure for illegal hunting. One

of the other links (if you click around a bit) has this

FAQ<http://www.saveindiastigers.co.uk/saving-tiger-faqs.html>:

What is the biggest threat the tiger faces?

By far the biggest threat is habitat destruction. Poachers are last in

line.

Depends on how you define the problem. Frankly, I'm concerned with

preserving tiger habitat, tigers being incidental to that. If tiger farming

can be used to help reduce demand for tiger and thus defray the cost of

enforcing tiger preserves, then great. But the vision of tiger farms as the

sole cure, leaves me quite cold. I am not interested in a policy that saves

tigers by converting them all into livestock.

But I also believe that tiger poaching is an independent harm that is

harmful to good government and good economics.

#12 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c12> from Tom

Volckhausen at 12:25 am on Aug 03, 2005

Responding to

" the simplest and most practical approach is to define larger parks and

natural reserves and protect them with adequate enforcement.

That works fine in wealthy nations, but it's a failure in many poorer ones

due to lack of resources and attendant corruption. Apparently your

" solution " is already a failure in India, so re-proposing it is silly. "

Actually my solution of " larger parks and adequate enforcement " clearly has

not been implemented. If the enforcement and protected habitat was

" adequate " by definition the tiger would not be threatened. Agreed that

corruption is an issue, but many less-developed nations have had very good

success with the traditional national park approach (examples include Kenya,

Costa Rica,etc).

Responding to Joe's points about cod fishing, unregulated market competition

for natural resources (the tragedy of the commons) frequently ends in the

destruction of the resource. For the cod fishery to survive the surfeit of

boats and fisherman, government regulation was required. The cod collapse

was a simple case of inadequate and inept government regulation, which can

be fixed by competent and fair regulation rather than relying on some

mythical, nonexistent " free market " approach (I would be curious to see even

one example of a " free market " protecting ecosystems and endangered

species).

On the other hand, every state in the US regulates hunting and fishing to

preserve those natural resources. Most nations regulate and control fishing

within national waters. That is just one of a myriad examples of government

regulation properly functioning to protect natural resources.

Relying on solutions such as parks and government regulation/enforcement

which have uncountable numbers of successful implementations strikes me as

pragmatism rather than ideology.

#13 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c13> from Robin

Roberts <http://robinroberts.blogspot.com/> at 12:49 am on Aug 03, 2005

Tom, most of the countries who have had success with the national park

concept have found ways to commercialize the wildlife - hunting, tourism

etc.

#14 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c14> from Joe

Katzman<http://windsofchange.net/>at 1:57

am on Aug 03, 2005

Tom Volckhausen believes that competent government regulation is something

to reasonably expect, even when all of the incentives in place and

experience point the other way. But he thinks the free market is " mythical "

and has no place as a useful component and critique of proposed approaches.

Tells you all you need to know, doesn't it?

Like I said, there's an ideology shill here... and Tom, you're it.

#15 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c15> from Rob

Lyman<http://roblyman.blogspot.com/>at 2:52

am on Aug 03, 2005

*If the enforcement and protected habitat was " adequate " by definition the

tiger would not be threatened.*

Well, OK, but that's rather circular. My point wasn't that national parks

can't ever work, but that the preconditions for their success (lots of money

for enforcement, absence of corruption) may not be present in the tiger's

natural range, and thus the solution may not be practical. I can't say I

know enough about India to have an informed opinion

PD, I agree with you on canned hunts, exotic farming, ecosystem protection,

etc. But note that ecosystem protection is easier when you have someone

funding it, such as hunters buying licenses; every state maintains (and

improves) public lands for hunters seeking game species, and there is

frankly an overabundance of many game species in the US today. Note also

that legal hunters are annoyed by--and tend to report--poachers who try to

get a free ride.

So I think there's room for some thinking beyond " build a preserve and

surround it with rangers.'

#16 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c16> from Robin

Roberts <http://robinroberts.blogspot.com/> at 3:18 am on Aug 03, 2005

Not to mention, Rob, that in the US much of the wildlife management is

funded by sportsmen - even non-game wildlife - between hunting and fishing

licenses and Pittman-Robertson Act funds.

#17 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c17> from lpdbw at 7:37

am on Aug 03, 2005

Blake. Cool.

#18 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c18> from PD Shaw at 4:13

pm on Aug 03, 2005

Hunting's cool.

In my homestate, the State Conservation Police don't just protect public

lands, they enforce wrongful timber cutting and illegal hunting on private

lands too. So, its not the creation of preserves that generate the need for

enforcement, but the creation of laws and the willingness to see them

enforced. Does India protect private property rights as well?

The model I would use is the Emiquon

Project<http://nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/illinois/preserves/art\

1112.html>,

in which 7,000 acres of prime farmland along the Illinois river was

purchased by an environmental group in order to flood it and return it to a

wetland habitat. Private money is funding it. There will probably be little,

if any, public access. What's sort of interesting about the project is how

unpopular it is. The local farmers are aghast that some of the best farmland

in the world is being wasted. Local government doesn't want to lose the tax

money. The government simply couldn't do this project with that kind of

opposition.

#19 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c19> from Tom

Volckhausen at 4:18 pm on Aug 03, 2005

Joe,

My quote is " mythical, nonexistent " free market " approach " in which I was

referring to free market approaches to ecosystem and species conservation.

As before, I can list thousands of examples of government operated parks and

refuges, along with hunting and fishing regulations serving to protect

ecosystems and threatened species.

Can you give one successful example of a " free market " approach to

ecosystem/species conservation?

Not to be dogmatic, I clearly recognize that there should be market support

for conservation, whether thru sales of forest products, income from

guiding/tourism, etc. But, the core need is for adequate reserves,

adequately protected, and I have seen no evidence of a " free market

approach " which replaces clearly defined and enforced reserve areas.

I also acknowledge that much government regulation is inept, but the fix for

bad regulation is good regulation, not de-regulation as the US savings and

loan debacle, Enron, and many other examples show. Examples of successful

government regulation are so ubiquitous that we ignore them as fish might

ignore the sea. No one thinks it remarkable that Fish and Game departments

in almost the whole industrialized world maintain optimum population levels

of so many species.

Before messing around with some undefined " free market approach " India needs

to fix its' reserve system and that process seems to be underway. The World

Wildlife Fund and the Nature Conservancy are helping by adding protected

lands and equipment.

#20 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c20> from Randall

Parker <http://futurepundit.com/> at 2:43 am on Aug 04, 2005

Human population growth is a big problem for the wildlife of India. As human

growth pushes into wild places the size of habitats shrinks. Birth control

of humans would go a long way toward protecting other species. But don't

expect that to happen.

India has a higher population density than the United States. India has 1.08

billion

people<http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html#People>and

2.973 million sq km of land whereas the United States has 296 million

people<http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People>and

9.161 million sq km of land. So India has about 10 times the population

density. of course they are going to wipe out species and as their

population continues to grow more species are going to bite the dust.

#21 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c21> from Robert

M at 3:55

am on Aug 04, 2005

The songs of experience and innocence on these pages.

#22 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c22> from

Ruth<http://ruthcalvo/>at 5:31

pm on Aug 08, 2005

As discussed with Joe earlier, referencing

http://news./s/nm/environment_india_tigers_dc which reports:

> " The task force said India would have to work with China to stop huge

illegal trade in tiger body parts. Tiger organs, teeth, bones and penises

are

used in traditional Chinese medicine. "

Actually, I'm concluding that we've found the ideal use for cloning. Instead

of the S. Koreans producing the Seoul Afghan Hound (recent cloned puppy),

why not, for profit,

" Tiger organs, teeth, bones and penises " for all those Chinese whose

perceived

deficiencies are calling out for them? If you consider that valuable cow

embryos are implanted into rabbits to get them over the Canadia/US border

without

paying duties, that amount of imagination could certainly farm tiger body

parts

for what evidently is a considerable demand?

#23 <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007266.php#c23> from Joe

Katzman<http://windsofchange.net/>at 3:44

pm on Aug 20, 2005

Tom V (#19)... just because you haven't bothered to research it doesn't make

it mythical. Take a look at

Nepal,<http://www.perc.org/publications/percreports/march2000/nepal.php>for

instance. It's not the only example I've seen by any means. Within

this

page alone, I rather liked this shrimp farming

example<http://www.perc.org/publications/percreports/sept2004/shrimp.php>that

implemented the production

as an ecosystem <http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007152.php> model

we've talked about here (result: mangrove habitat enhancement, not just

mitigation of damage) - and in the same vein, how about alligator ranching

in

Idaho?<http://www.perc.org/publications/percreports/dec2002/alligators.php>You

know, I can remember when they were actually a threatened species.

Free market approaches to conservation are gaining steam in this area for

precisely the same reasons it has made inroads elsewhere: because

traditional liberal-left solutions are clearly failing. This doesn't render

traditional approaches utterly useless, but it does suggest to most sensible

people that perhaps there are more things in heaven and earth than are

dreamt of in your philosophy.

On which topic... The Philanthropy Foundation has a new guidebook

out<http://www.perc.org/publications/books/soaringhigh.php>re:

market-based environmentalism foundations et. al., and a broader

overview can be found

here.<http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/mehan200508190821.asp>

Finally, Ruth (#22) may be on to something. It certainly beats pinning our

hopes on asking for help from a Top 3 nation on all the global corruption

reports, which happens to have a culture whose native medicine tells people

tiger parts will help them feel better/ live longer, and for which people

will therefore pay exorbitant sums and go to strenuous effort.

Yeah, that'll work.

And soon, we may need to leverage that alligator ranching expertise with

crocodiles as well, thanks to blood properties that may have very real

health benefits. <http://news./s/nm/crocodile_blood_dc> Think of

the scope of the HIV threat. Now consider where it's concentrated, and the

kinds of belief systems and political systems prevalent in those areas.

Throw in the inevitable crossover between science and folklore as word of

this research leaks out. Finally, map to the range of many crocodiles.

The prediction isn't difficult. Depressing, yes, but not difficult.

I guess I'm disappointed by this kind of traditional gatekeeper/ " la la la I

can't hear you " liberal-left stance when confronted by challenges to its

orthodoxies. Challenges that note the fact that the interests and goals it

claims to represent are not being given priority, and indeed are being

sacrificed to its politics. Disappointed - but not surprised.

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Pablo <pablo.tachil

Apr 19, 2007 11:29 AM

Re: (CN - IN) Barun Mitra waxes eloquent on sustainable use

of tiger parts

AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7

Cc: , aapn

Hello Shubroto,

I am unable to open the links for some reason! Pardon my ignorance about

people and organizations.....but Firstly who is Barun Mitra??? Is he a

reformed poacher whose sentiments still reside in the poaching community or

is he some *money-ONLY *oriented businessman involved in skin trade???

*

"

But tigers are a renewable resource. They breed very easily in captivity. In

fact, China has, over the past decade or so, almost perfected the art of