Guest guest Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 I apologize for this rather long email but it was absolutely necessary for you...... and more so for the others who could get mis guided by your reply to Azam........ to understand how wrong you are! This Reminds me of a soldier who charged at his enemy thinking he had a whole army behind him....but when he did turn around, realised that the few men he thought were shouting in sync with him were nothing more than his own echo! Meritt, your agression seems to fade away like a tiger transforming into a kitten by the mention and rememberance of the poacher's encounter! And let me get one point clear here.... from what I understood of Azam's email, I dont think he was supporting Salman Khan's actions! We were trying to single out one of the few driving factor which attracts individuals and organizations alike...and in the case I'd mentioned......was that of the celebrity factor (* this applies to a certain section and does not include everyone here). Nothing more and nothing less! If certain factors are catching up with you causing difficulty in comprehending language, let me list out extracts from my earlier email and a few from Azam's: (1) Why does'nt all animal right violations recieve the same sort of support from individuals and organizations was the 1st concern! Elephant polo organized by Cartier (having top celebs like Shah rukh Khan as guests) was opposed on a grand scale by organizations at the venue (which Azam confirmed in his email to be PETA i suppose) but was given a cold shoulder barely a month later as it was a celeb-free event! I am told that lakhs of ruppees are spent on celebrity endorcements; recently few protesting that of animals in cages and circuses. The big question here is that having spent OUR FUNDS on some model (including pay cheques to the activists who probably spent hours at a celeb s doorstep trying to get an appointment)......are they not liable to act, raise a hue and cry for Bahadur? Are they not liable to act for elephants used in polo even in the absence of celebrity? Working in a corporate industry I completely understand the need for brand publicity which inturn ensures fund flow and in turn (hopefully) animal welfare....But wen the last of the processes is forgotten, it calls for corrective actions. So just to rephrase the Salman Khan topic that you thought you would use as the trump card in your reply is a shot mis(judged)fired! The mention of him in our emails was very sarcastic in nature (which apart from you the others seem to have understood)... atleast with that we were hoping these orgs to take action....be it Salman anywhere close to being in Jaipur or not! The intention was to push orgs in acting for Bahadur....period! And as far as Salman is concerned, if he were to be proved guilty, we all pray that he gets the max punishment that the law can impose and would also include a few other names like Pataudi, other ministers, etc whom people seem to have forgotten. Merrit our fight is against poachers and supporters of animal violation (including elephant polo) and we will continue to remain focussed no matter who it would be. No double standards unlike..... (2) Shooting of the poachers - Merrit, no 'human' human likes blood shed. I remember in many an emails you have voiced in favour of animals and animal sentiments to be treated to be equivalent to that of humans; and for which I have been very proud of you! But you are telling me now that if one of your relatives or neighbours is being hunted (murdered) time and again, and the law enforcement agencies spotted him, you would call them to let go of the maniac whose next target would probably be you? Well and I am not sure in what state of mind did the men whom you call poachers hold the gun on your face and let you take a pic of them! Pardon me, but it amused me! If you did that in Kaziranga, they would split your camera into 2 with their bullet and that which would be behind the camera too. We are all concerned about you Sir... please dont play that joke at Kaziranga! I have faced armed poachers in India myself (stalking for Tiger poachers)....but I have to give this one to you... I did not dare try something as ridiculous as clicking their snap.... they are deadly, grace of god that I got away alive and also managed to take them to task! Every nation including yours fights terror in all forms and if it was for a global cause, is there anything like it? Every living being on this planet is directly linked to the very existance of this planet... a concept which I assume you have atleast heard of andb dont need to explain to you! So here if there is a law enforcement agent terminating those individuals who could spell doom for you, me and everyone else and in turn gave you an extra day on the face of the earth, I see no reason not to believe it is a joyous event! Can you please explain why have crimes being dealt with terminating the criminals???.... a practise that has been ongoing since thousands of years now? You will get your answer! So Merrit..... WE ARE NOT HAPPY BECAUSE SOMEONE IS DEAD..... WE ARE HAPPY BECAUSE SOMEONE GOT A LIFE TODAY (the rhinos) AND SOME OTHERS (we and our future generation) HAVE A HOPE TO SEE TOMORROW! Its all about perspective. Be more positive in life! Like I have mentioned before, do not react based on personal vendetta on a forum where we hope to stand united to bring a difference in the lives of our fellow beings who are unable to express themselves. Thanks, Pablo. On 4/24/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > >It is time we discussed and analyzed where exactly we lack !!! > > Most certainly. > > >Indeed, Salman Khan`s actions have always spoken better than words. > > Yes. Here we have a fellow who for years got away with > poaching of the most flagrant and least defensible sort, not for > food, nor to feed his family, but merely for the thrill of blasting > the life out of other beings. > > After getting caught, and prosecuted, through the > extraordinary actions of thousands of Bishnoi who pressured the > authorities to bring him to justice, this gent spent eight years > defying & thwarting justice in every manner that he could pay lawyers > to perform. > > We now have the spectacle of certain people who seem to lack > either the memory or the wisdom of the elephants they purport to > defend, rushing to embrace a poacher of notoriety trailing only that > of Sansar Chand and the late Veerappan, while trashing Christine > Townend, who has dedicated her entire life to animal rights & > welfare. > > What is the difference in their perspective on elephants, > the issue at hand? > > Christine Townend works to provide hands-on care to > elephants, among other species. She believes a bit of elephant polo > on grass is a nice break from standing or working on hot cement. > > Salman Khan's one known claim to activism on behalf of > elephants was posing for a World Wildlife Fund calendar, at the very > same time that the World Wildlife Fund was endorsing culling > elephants in Kruger National Park, South Africa. > > Further to lacking perspective-- > > >Some good news folks !! > >Two poachers have been killed near Kaziranga National Park in Assam this > >morning. > > I wouldn't consider that good news, even if I had killed the > poachers myself while they were pointing their guns at me, & yes, I > did have poachers point guns at me a couple of times when I was doing > anti-poaching work in Quebec. (I photographed one in the act, & > informed the other two that they could either put their guns down or > carry them out of the woods in a most awkward and uncomfortable > manner.) > > It is always bad news to have to resort to violence, even > when there are no alternatives. It is bad news that there are > poachers in the vicinity of Kaziranga National Park. It is bad news > that there are poachers at all. > > It is also bad news, especially bad news, that people who > purport to be animal defenders rejoice in this type of killing. > Perhaps it was necessary, but even in necessity, it was no cause > for rejoicing. > > Every poacher who is killed has family & friends, who may > avenge him, or turn to poaching themselves, if not engaged in it > already, to make up for the lost family income. > > Shooting poachers to protect elephants turned out to be very > bad & self-defeating policy in Kenya, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe more > than 20 years ago, with the ultimate effect in each nation of > encouraging the poachers to arm ever more heavily, and make renewed > efforts to infiltrate, bribe, and suborn the anti-poaching forces. > > In Kenya, the major poaching factions aligned themselves > with the same Somali militias as al Qaida and Hamas. In Zimbabwe, > trying to distinguish the poachers from the Robert Mugabe government > is now no easy task. > > Respect for animal life includes respect for human life. > Humans may be exceptionally dangerous great apes, but we are great > apes nonetheless, and exulting in harm done to each other differs not > at all in principle from exulting vicariously in the killings of a > Salman Khan. > > Which does raise the question, what if the Bishoi had killed > Salman Khan instead of bringing him to trial? > > Would those now simultaneously praising Salman Khan and > praising killing poachers have exulted at that? > > If so, why would a man allegedly worthy of hanging nine > years ago now be deemed worthy of praise, after eight years evading > justice? > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 Dear Mr Clifton, Thanks for your message. I would be most grateful if you could clarify an issue you have raised in your letter. You say, " In Kenya, the major poaching factions aligned themselves with the same Somali militias as al Qaida and Hamas. " Please correct me if I am mistaken, but as I understand, Hamas is a Shia group and al Qaida is a Sunni group and they have very different objectives and political goals. They have never cooperated with each other for any common cause. It would therefore come as a revelation if these two factions were to unite in aiding poaching of animals in Somalia or anywhere else for that matter since they would make for strange bedfellows. Maybe you can throw some more light on this. I would also be grateful if you could share some statistics on the success or failure of 'shoot to kill' policies in preventing poaching in national parks in Asia compared to those in Africa. Thanks. Best wishes and kind regards, On 4/24/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >It is time we discussed and analyzed where exactly we lack !!! > > Most certainly. > > >Indeed, Salman Khan`s actions have always spoken better than words. > > Yes. Here we have a fellow who for years got away with > poaching of the most flagrant and least defensible sort, not for > food, nor to feed his family, but merely for the thrill of blasting > the life out of other beings. > > After getting caught, and prosecuted, through the > extraordinary actions of thousands of Bishnoi who pressured the > authorities to bring him to justice, this gent spent eight years > defying & thwarting justice in every manner that he could pay lawyers > to perform. > > We now have the spectacle of certain people who seem to lack > either the memory or the wisdom of the elephants they purport to > defend, rushing to embrace a poacher of notoriety trailing only that > of Sansar Chand and the late Veerappan, while trashing Christine > Townend, who has dedicated her entire life to animal rights & > welfare. > > What is the difference in their perspective on elephants, > the issue at hand? > > Christine Townend works to provide hands-on care to > elephants, among other species. She believes a bit of elephant polo > on grass is a nice break from standing or working on hot cement. > > Salman Khan's one known claim to activism on behalf of > elephants was posing for a World Wildlife Fund calendar, at the very > same time that the World Wildlife Fund was endorsing culling > elephants in Kruger National Park, South Africa. > > Further to lacking perspective-- > > >Some good news folks !! > >Two poachers have been killed near Kaziranga National Park in Assam this > >morning. > > I wouldn't consider that good news, even if I had killed the > poachers myself while they were pointing their guns at me, & yes, I > did have poachers point guns at me a couple of times when I was doing > anti-poaching work in Quebec. (I photographed one in the act, & > informed the other two that they could either put their guns down or > carry them out of the woods in a most awkward and uncomfortable > manner.) > > It is always bad news to have to resort to violence, even > when there are no alternatives. It is bad news that there are > poachers in the vicinity of Kaziranga National Park. It is bad news > that there are poachers at all. > > It is also bad news, especially bad news, that people who > purport to be animal defenders rejoice in this type of killing. > Perhaps it was necessary, but even in necessity, it was no cause > for rejoicing. > > Every poacher who is killed has family & friends, who may > avenge him, or turn to poaching themselves, if not engaged in it > already, to make up for the lost family income. > > Shooting poachers to protect elephants turned out to be very > bad & self-defeating policy in Kenya, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe more > than 20 years ago, with the ultimate effect in each nation of > encouraging the poachers to arm ever more heavily, and make renewed > efforts to infiltrate, bribe, and suborn the anti-poaching forces. > > In Kenya, the major poaching factions aligned themselves > with the same Somali militias as al Qaida and Hamas. In Zimbabwe, > trying to distinguish the poachers from the Robert Mugabe government > is now no easy task. > > Respect for animal life includes respect for human life. > Humans may be exceptionally dangerous great apes, but we are great > apes nonetheless, and exulting in harm done to each other differs not > at all in principle from exulting vicariously in the killings of a > Salman Khan. > > Which does raise the question, what if the Bishoi had killed > Salman Khan instead of bringing him to trial? > > Would those now simultaneously praising Salman Khan and > praising killing poachers have exulted at that? > > If so, why would a man allegedly worthy of hanging nine > years ago now be deemed worthy of praise, after eight years evading > justice? > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 >You say, " In Kenya, the major poaching factions aligned themselves >with the same Somali militias as al Qaida and Hamas. " Please >correct me if I am mistaken, but as I understand, Hamas is a Shia >group and al Qaida is a Sunni group and they have very different >objectives and political goals. They have never cooperated with each >other for any common cause. That is correct. They do not cooperate with each other any more than the ethnic Irish mobsters led by Bugs Moran cooperated with the ethnic Italian mobsters led by Al Capone in Chicago during the Roaring Twenties, and like the Chicago mobsters of that place and time, they do sometimes kill each other in territorial disputes. Nonetheless, both are engaged in the same kinds of criminal traffic in the same region, & long have been. Hamas appears to have been involved in trafficking rhino horn first, going back into the 1980s. Al Qaida saw the money to be made from trafficking in wildlife parts, & several years later found their own Somali militias to work with. > I would also be grateful if you could share some statistics on the success >or failure of 'shoot to kill' policies in preventing poaching in national >parks in Asia compared to those in Africa. Shoot-to-kill anti-poaching edicts prevailed in Zimbabwe, Kenya, South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, and Zambia from 1984 into the early 1990s. At least 160 alleged poachers were killed in Zimbabwe and 130 in Kenya, with no data available from the other shoot-to-kill nations. The first problem with the shoot-to-kill policies was that they gave anyone carrying anything that might look like a weapon cause to flee from anyone resembling a ranger or landowner. Among the " poachers " at constant risk were truck drivers lightly armed for self-defense against bandits--or lions and leopards if obliged to sleep outdoors after a breakdown. Serious poachers meanwhile improved their armament and shot back at the rangers. During the shoot-to-kill years, many international nonprofit organizations funded private anti-poaching militias. ANIMAL PEOPLE extensively examined the history of private anti-poaching militias in an April 1999 cover feature entitled " Can mercenary management stop poaching in Africa? " The weight of experience involving at least seven militias funded by private conservationists between the mid-1980s and the present indicates that they do not increase respect for law and order, may provide cover for covert operations to destabilize governments, import weapons and equipment which easily disappear without a trace (including helicopters), and in some instances hire individuals whose chief interest in fighting poachers may be to reduce the competition. Over time, ANIMAL PEOPLE found, the short-term achievements of anti-poaching militias were offset by catastrophic failures, especially at the political level after mercenaries abused the public trust. I'll be happy to forward " Mercenary management " to anyone interested. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 Having heard all you guys and keeping the the poached Rhinos and the remaining vulnerable ones in mind, I personally think the Government of Assam will keep up with this policy and they use Anti-Terrorist Laws for this action and not Wildlife Laws. Unfortunately the Rhino horn has become so valuable that only drastic action, such as 'shoot-at-sight' orders, will keep poachersat bay....and the Rhinos alive. We can cry though for a few loved ones lost in the process. Its a WAR after all, you cannot expect Soldiers battling a War to carry 'roses' !! Yes, it is sad that valuable lives may be lost in the process. But a soft approach towards the protection of destitute animals...NO way ! Azam On 4/26/07, Merritt Clifton < anmlpepl wrote: > > >You say, " In Kenya, the major poaching factions aligned themselves > >with the same Somali militias as al Qaida and Hamas. " Please > >correct me if I am mistaken, but as I understand, Hamas is a Shia > >group and al Qaida is a Sunni group and they have very different > >objectives and political goals. They have never cooperated with each > >other for any common cause. > > That is correct. They do not cooperate with each other any > more than the ethnic Irish mobsters led by Bugs Moran cooperated with > the ethnic Italian mobsters led by Al Capone in Chicago during the > Roaring Twenties, and like the Chicago mobsters of that place and > time, they do sometimes kill each other in territorial disputes. > > Nonetheless, both are engaged in the same kinds of criminal > traffic in the same region, & long have been. Hamas appears to have > been involved in trafficking rhino horn first, going back into the > 1980s. Al Qaida saw the money to be made from trafficking in > wildlife parts, & several years later found their own Somali > militias to work with. > > > I would also be grateful if you could share some statistics on the > success > >or failure of 'shoot to kill' policies in preventing poaching in national > >parks in Asia compared to those in Africa. > > Shoot-to-kill anti-poaching edicts prevailed in Zimbabwe, > Kenya, South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, and Zambia from 1984 into > the early 1990s. At least 160 alleged poachers were killed in > Zimbabwe and 130 in Kenya, with no data available from the other > shoot-to-kill nations. > > The first problem with the shoot-to-kill policies was that > they gave anyone carrying anything that might look like a weapon > cause to flee from anyone resembling a ranger or landowner. > > Among the " poachers " at constant risk were truck drivers > lightly armed for self-defense against bandits--or lions and leopards > if obliged to sleep outdoors after a breakdown. Serious poachers > meanwhile improved their armament and shot back at the rangers. > > During the shoot-to-kill years, many international nonprofit > organizations funded private anti-poaching militias. ANIMAL PEOPLE > extensively examined the history of private anti-poaching militias in > an April 1999 cover feature entitled " Can mercenary management stop > poaching in Africa? " > > The weight of experience involving at least seven militias > funded by private conservationists between the mid-1980s and the > present indicates that they do not increase respect for law and > order, may provide cover for covert operations to destabilize > governments, import weapons and equipment which easily disappear > without a trace (including helicopters), and in some instances hire > individuals whose chief interest in fighting poachers may be to > reduce the competition. > > Over time, ANIMAL PEOPLE found, the short-term achievements > of anti-poaching militias were offset by catastrophic failures, > especially at the political level after mercenaries abused the public > trust. > > I'll be happy to forward " Mercenary management " to anyone interested. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 >Having heard all you guys and keeping the the poached Rhinos >and the remaining vulnerable ones in mind, I personally think the >Government of Assam will keep up with this policy and they use >Anti-Terrorist Laws for this action and not Wildlife Laws. I would suspect that the most lucrative branches of poaching in Assam are associated with the rebel factions. They have the firearms, the presence in the bush, the covert contacts, and the need for the ready cash from illicit sources. Probably the traffic would run through Myanmar and China. Historically, governments have been reluctant to recognize poaching as a major source of support for armed opponents, but examples of cases where it was may be traced all the way back to Robin Hood, who poached in support of his tax revolt against King John and John's agent, the Sheriff of Nottingham. >Unfortunately the Rhino horn has become so valuable that only >drastic action, such as 'shoot-at-sight' orders, will keep poachers >at bay....and the Rhinos alive. This, however, is reading the situation upside down and backward. " Shoot-to-kill " orders have never kept poachers at bay, especially poachers of ideological motivation. Certainly this is not what happened in many different parts of Africa. Instead, what happened was that many innocent people were shot by mistake, making enemies (and poachers or friends of poachers) of their families and friends. This is what happened back in Sherwood Forest, too. Hanging, burning, boiling, drawing-and-quartering, and disemboweling poachers just kept making more & more friends & allies for Robin Hood. The more public the executions, the more the public covertly supported Robin Hood. What finally brought Robin Hood out of the forest was bringing him into the political system. Meanwhile, like other serious poachers, Robin Hood responded to the increasing efforts of the Sheriff of Nottingham and King John to kill him by redoubling his efforts to kill their soldiers. Anyone familiar with even the Walt Disney cartoon version of the Robin Hood story would not have made the mistakes that African governments made in introducing shoot-to-kill anti-poaching policies 20 years ago. Unfortunately, those mistakes were made, more elephants and rhinos were poached than ever, and the poaching gangs became stronger than ever, weakened only after CITES finally banned international trade in elephant ivory and rhino horn. Those prohibitions did not end the poaching, but they slowed it down far more than shooting at suspected poachers ever had. > We can cry though for a few loved ones lost in the process. Its a >WAR after all, you cannot expect Soldiers battling a War to carry >'roses' !! People who advocate for handling animal issues as a " war " should study war first. How many wars every really end, and how long does it take? How many people & animals are killed in the perpetual effort of either side to extirpate the other? How long will the losers plot revenge? At least two major conflicts have now been going on, with only sporadic intermissions, for 2,000 years. Many others have been simmering for decades, at least. The last thing you want to happen to the wildlife of Assam is for the animals to become the objects of warfare. What happens to the objects of warfare is that they get bombed, strafed, raped, and burned. What really needs to be done is bringing an end to the warfare already underway. What that requires is exactly the same thing that finally stopped Robin Hood: the poachers and rebels have to feel that they have more to gain from cooperating with the system than from fighting it. This is much more easily achieved when the issues are purely economic and political, not mixed up with perceived needs for vengeance. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 >Do you suppose that the word 'war' could be used metaphorically to >describe a movement? A successful political or cultural movement is exactly the opposite of a war, in that it induces change by winning cooperation instead of trying to compel it by threat. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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