RE: FW: Ever Wonder How Elephants Are Trained?

[Guest guest]

Dear Azam,

 

Merritt is a wonderful fund of knowledge, statistics, etc and a very

valuable member of AAPN, especially useful in that he makes controversial

statements which make us think deeply. He is also vegan which proves his

personal commitment. But what I, and I think the majority on this list,

cannot understand is that he approves of many types of animal exploitation.

Of course we are against cruel training methods - but what Merritt can't

seem to grasp is that we should be against all forms of exploitation,

whether or not physical violence is used.

 

I still believe that by far the most common method of training elephants

(and other wild animals) still to this day involves physical violence. Where

you have a situation of unequal power, you will have abuse.

 

But the real point is that we should not be exploiting them at all.

 

John.

 

 

> All methods of training and handling of captive elephants

> worldwide for human entertainment purpose should be condemned

> by the Animal People, rather glorify research on and

> circulate the so called " approved handling and training

> methods " , unless we love to see the gentle giants perform

> stupid human tricks.

>

> Circuses are no fun for animals ! They do not take part in

> the 'training'

> willingly.

> You force them, you instill fear in as many ways possible.

> You starve them, you make them realise that there is no GOD

> that exists, its only you the DEVIL. And the poor soul

> finally bows down.

>

> Azam

>

> On 5/7/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote:

> >

> > There are multiple styles and philosophies of captive elephant

> > handling and management, and much that is shown in the PETA

> videos is

> > both obsolete and far from universal.

> >

> > Elephant trainers and handlers have been at odds over what are the

> > best methods for at least 20 years or more, much like dog trainers,

> > with big divides over whether it is necessary or desirable to

> > establish " dominance " over the animal.

> >

> > For the past decade-plus the leading teacher of the " dominance "

> > approach to elephant handling in the U.S. & Europe was

> Scott Riddle,

> > who more-or-less succeeded Smokey Jones.

> >

> > Founded in 1994, Riddles' International School for Elephant

> Management

> > suspended operations in 2005, " because of lack of interest from

> > professional keepers, " as Cathy Frye of the Arkansas

> Democrat-Gazette

> > put it.

> >

> > Further particulars on current approved handling and

> training methods

> > are available from:

> >

> > The Elephant Managers Association:

> >

> > http://www.elephant-managers.com/

> >

> > The European Elephant Keepers and Managers Association:

> >

> > http://www.eekma.org/

> >

> > --

> > Merritt Clifton

> > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE

> > P.O. Box 960

> > Clinton, WA 98236

> >

> > Telephone: 360-579-2505

> > Fax: 360-579-2575

> > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com>

> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org

> >

> > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper

> providing original

> > investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in

> > 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at

> > more than 10,000 animal protection organizations.

> > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity.

> $24/year;

> > for free sample, send address.]

[Guest guest]

I was pretty reluctant to spend time writing this email as I am held up with

an on going elephant study in south India......to get just one person on

this group to over and over agian understand that he is his own paradox. But

then on request, I wish to share just 2 cents from the years of study I have

done on captive v/s wild elephant activities (and something which anyone who

has been involved in reality with elephants would vouch for)...

 

The equation is simple... There are 2 methods used to train living beings

with or above a degree of intelligence

(1) establish dominance - out of fear of the individual (trainer/ mahout),

tourture...(in this case) the elephant obliges to the tricks it is MADE to

perform.... be it stand on a stool on 2 legs, stand for hours at a temple

festival or a play a torturous game of elephant polo is blistering desert

heat!

(2) affection based training - provide an extra helping of fruits or

sugarcane if it were to listen to a master's (commanded) trick. Merrit,

before you (and others) who talk about " approved handling techniques "

written not by an elephant but another human, jump to this, I wish to ask

you what trick has an elephant performed by this sort of a training anywhere

in the world? Would an elephant stand on a stool for an extra helping of

fruits, would it stand for 16 hours on a tarred base in blistering heat for

a pat on its back, would it play a game of polo in desert heat becuse it is

afterall play time according to people like you, for a ball of jaggery?

 

Merrit, pardon me, but many a times from a lot of thigns you write (you

taking a snap of the poacher when he held the gun on your head to talking

about torture in circus training being an obsolete thing to giving U.S based

stats/ unassertive suggestions when we are talking of problems in Asia be it

on local dogs or poaching of rhinos), I get a feeling that your statements

are a mixture of fantasy + hallucination + over heard but partly heard info

+ unreliable sources giving you information. Its high time either you got to

the field, gathered the courage to sneak into a circus and witness the

torture or got a few days prior to an elephant polo game to get a sneak peek

of what the elephants are put through....either do that yourself or have a

more efficient team to update you with more accurate information!

 

This is a humble suggestion and I hope you would take this is an advice from

a friend!

 

Regards,

Pablo.

On 5/8/07, Dr John Wedderburn <john wrote:

>

> Dear Azam,

>

> Merritt is a wonderful fund of knowledge, statistics, etc and a very

> valuable member of AAPN, especially useful in that he makes controversial

> statements which make us think deeply. He is also vegan which proves his

> personal commitment. But what I, and I think the majority on this list,

> cannot understand is that he approves of many types of animal

> exploitation.

> Of course we are against cruel training methods - but what Merritt can't

> seem to grasp is that we should be against all forms of exploitation,

> whether or not physical violence is used.

>

> I still believe that by far the most common method of training elephants

> (and other wild animals) still to this day involves physical violence.

> Where

> you have a situation of unequal power, you will have abuse.

>

> But the real point is that we should not be exploiting them at all.

>

> John.

>

> > All methods of training and handling of captive elephants

> > worldwide for human entertainment purpose should be condemned

> > by the Animal People, rather glorify research on and

> > circulate the so called " approved handling and training

> > methods " , unless we love to see the gentle giants perform

> > stupid human tricks.

> >

> > Circuses are no fun for animals ! They do not take part in

> > the 'training'

> > willingly.

> > You force them, you instill fear in as many ways possible.

> > You starve them, you make them realise that there is no GOD

> > that exists, its only you the DEVIL. And the poor soul

> > finally bows down.

> >

> > Azam

> >

> > On 5/7/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl<anmlpepl%40whidbey.com>>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > There are multiple styles and philosophies of captive elephant

> > > handling and management, and much that is shown in the PETA

> > videos is

> > > both obsolete and far from universal.

> > >

> > > Elephant trainers and handlers have been at odds over what are the

> > > best methods for at least 20 years or more, much like dog trainers,

> > > with big divides over whether it is necessary or desirable to

> > > establish " dominance " over the animal.

> > >

> > > For the past decade-plus the leading teacher of the " dominance "

> > > approach to elephant handling in the U.S. & Europe was

> > Scott Riddle,

> > > who more-or-less succeeded Smokey Jones.

> > >

> > > Founded in 1994, Riddles' International School for Elephant

> > Management

> > > suspended operations in 2005, " because of lack of interest from

> > > professional keepers, " as Cathy Frye of the Arkansas

> > Democrat-Gazette

> > > put it.

> > >

> > > Further particulars on current approved handling and

> > training methods

> > > are available from:

> > >

> > > The Elephant Managers Association:

> > >

> > > http://www.elephant-managers.com/

> > >

> > > The European Elephant Keepers and Managers Association:

> > >

> > > http://www.eekma.org/

> > >

> > > --

> > > Merritt Clifton

> > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE

> > > P.O. Box 960

> > > Clinton, WA 98236

> > >

> > > Telephone: 360-579-2505

> > > Fax: 360-579-2575

> > > E-mail: anmlpepl

<anmlpepl%40whidbey.com><anmlpepl%40whidbey.com>

> > > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org

> > >

> > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper

> > providing original

> > > investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in

> > > 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at

> > > more than 10,000 animal protection organizations.

> > > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity.

> > $24/year;

> > > for free sample, send address.]

>

>

 

 

 

--

WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>But what I, and I think the majority on this list, cannot

>understand is that he approves of many types of animal exploitation.

 

 

I have never been one to give a damn what majorities think.

 

I didn't give a damn when I fought gangs of bullies ever day

as the only vegetarian in grade school, didn't give a damn when I

refused to dissect animals in 1966, & didn't give a damn when as a

farm beat reporter for rural Quebec newspapers, years before there

was a visible animal rights movement, I began exposing factory

farming, trapping, & dog-chaining, among other abuses, often

putting my job on the line to print the news & raise hell.

 

Majority opinion is frequently if not always based on

group-think, reactively going along with what others believe just

because that is what others believe, instead of really opening one's

eyes & ears, paying attention to life, and using one's own

intelligence.

 

Majority opinion among people who nominally hold ethical

perspectives similar to mine can just as easily be wrong as majority

opinion among folks on the other side of the fence, for precisely

the same reason: the tendency to look around to see what everyone

else is doing & do what will be socially acceptable, rather than

becoming fully informed.

 

Becoming fully informed is much more work than just going

along with the crowd. Believing what one's peer group believes is

ever so much easier. Instead of having to go to the effort of

investigating, questioning sources, and thinking for oneself, one

can be much better accepted by blindly accepting " conventional

wisdom, " even if " conventional wisdom " is as much an oxymoron as

" military intelligence. "

 

But some of us are just not wired that way.

 

Several years ago I belatedly learned, much to my surprise,

that the first question almost all people ask themselves, when

confronted with any new object, idea, or situation, is how they

feel about it.

 

That surprised me, because I took the same online survey

that confirmed this, which involved following a multiple choice

verbal maze, and I didn't get around to the aspects that involved

defining my feelings until last among the options. My first concerns

were verifying, validating, and quantifying the information: is

this true? Why is it true? Who says? Does it have another possible

interpretation?

 

Even having a feeling about the subject matter never occurred

to me, until the last set of questions insisted that I should.

 

At the recent Asia for Animals conference in Chennai, Marc

Bekoff showed slides of various animals' emotional behavior, and

pointed out the stupidity of people who fail to observe it, while

purporting to be objective scientists.

 

This was all very clear to me back when I made not eating

meat not only the way of life I had grown up with, but an ethical

creed, and when I refused to dissect, with no outside encouragement

whatever until after the fact. Simple observation showed that

animals valued their lives. I had no need to take their lives. That

ended the issue, no matter how many times my lunch was trashed or

how many " F " grades I got.

 

Conversely, one could exhibit a great many slides of animals

who are purportedly being " exploited, " according to many activists,

yet who plainly do enjoy their work and even take obvious pride in

it, regardless of how they came to be doing it.

 

For example, one afternoon in 1978 I photographed an old

farmer named Donald Sherrer, who still ploughed and hauled stones

with a team of horses he had kept for 30 years. While Sherrer paused

to talk with me, he let the horses go unattended, and they kept

right on dragging the disk harrow to the end of Sherrer's 40 acres,

then paused and waited for him.

 

Several years later, Sherrer died in the night. The

community found out because one horse stood at his door while the

other went to a neighbor's house to try to get help.

 

Obviously most working horses are exploited, treated as

machinery and then sold for meat. But not all, and it is doing the

Donald Sherrers of the world, and their horses, a considerable

injustice to assert that their partnership is in the same category as

the relationship of working horse and human that more often prevails.

If every horse user developed the kind of relationship with the

horses that Sherrer had, terming the use of working horses

" exploitation " would be a gross misnomer.

 

Over the years I have seen many examples of comparable

relationships, involving animals of many different species, in many

situations.

 

Working with an animal usually is exploitation because

usually the handler is maintaining a master-and-slave relationship

with the animal--but that is not how working with animals has to be,

any more than human and human can only work in master-and-slave

relationships.

 

Working for a living often involves exploiting or being

exploited, and at one time probably the majority of human workers

were slaves; but the most successful working relationships are based

on mutual choice, whether as equal partnerships, or

master-and-apprentice, or simply boss who appreciates good employees

and employees who respect a good boss.

 

Animals, like humans, mostly have to work for a living. In

nature they have traditional and habitual ways of working, called

grazing, browsing, hunting, and watching out for predators and

parasites.

 

Outside a natural environment, animals are often capable of

learning other ways, and just as humans who leave the farm for the

big city often never choose to go back, many an animal develops a

preference for a learned way of life that involves fewer risks and

more food.

 

All animals? Of course not.

 

Most animals?

 

Subtract those who are kept in miserable confinement for the

purpose of eventually being butchered.

 

Now look at the remainder. See how they " vote with their

feet. " Or wings. Those who abscond at the first opportunity & do

not promptly return are almost certainly unhappy in captivity, and

might be considered exploited.

 

Those who do not abscond, or at least do not stay away, are

making a different sort of choice.

 

I recently conducted an unintentional experiment of that

sort. I caught five feral cats who lived beneath my house, had all

five sterilized and vaccinated, and brought them into the house for

their post-surgical recovery.

 

24 hours later, they had ripped out two screens. Three had

escaped, exiting right beside an untouched bowl of canned food and

an untouched bowl of kibble, plus a bowl of water. Two, neither

easily handled at that point, had not escaped, even though I found

them both sleeping in the breeze through the open screens. Those

kitties had opted to become my house cats.

 

Am I exploiting them? I don't think so. Respecting an

animal's rights begins with respecting the animals' own choices. My

cats Callie and Hobbs chose to live indoors with me. Alley, Oops,

and King Guz did not. Keeping them inside as house cats would be

exploiting them, because they were here against their will, but

Callie and Hobbs, even though they arrived against their will,

decided when offered a choice that life as a house cat isn't all that

terrible, even if they do have to put up with me for at least 10-12

hours a day.

 

Is elephant-keeping like keeping house cats?

 

Obviously an elephant has the strength and intelligence to be

extremely dangerous if the elephant is genuinely unhappy with any

situation.

 

Equally obviously, elephants generally demonstrate quite a

lot of patience with humans, especially considering how badly most

elephants captured from the wild have been treated.

 

Yet also obviously, elephants do not all choose to return to

wild ways of living, even when given the chance. Many of the most

dangerous elephants are those who were released after becoming at

least half habituated, who still want the food that humans gave

them, and sometimes the alcohol that they were given to keep them

working.

 

Probably taking those elephants into captivity in the first

place was exploitation--but would it be exploitation to take an

already habituated elephant back into captivity, give him something

to do, and give him an evening bucket of beer for good behavior?

 

I don't think so. Exploitation is not what one does with an

animal, but why and how one does it: an attitude, not an action.

 

 

 

--

Merritt Clifton

Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE

P.O. Box 960

Clinton, WA 98236

 

Telephone: 360-579-2505

Fax: 360-579-2575

E-mail: anmlpepl

Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org

 

[ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing

original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide,

founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the

decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations.

We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year;

for free sample, send address.]

[Guest guest]

>(2) affection based training - provide an extra helping of fruits or

>sugarcane if it were to listen to a master's (commanded) trick. Merrit,

>before you (and others) who talk about " approved handling techniques "

>written not by an elephant but another human, jump to this, I wish to ask

>you what trick has an elephant performed by this sort of a training anywhere

>in the world?

 

 

One of the most famous elephant acts of all time was the

roller-skating duo of Tara the elephant and trainer Carol Buckley,

who never hit an animal for any reason.

 

Buckley eventually decided that life on the road was not good

for elephants, & founded the Elephant Sanctuary at Hohenwald,

Tennessee, where Tara is now among the matriarchs.

 

 

Incidentally, I suspect I have visited & often been behind

the scenes at dozens more traveling elephant acts, zoos, & other

facilities where elephants are kept than the overwhelming majority of

people who post on this subject. Almost certainly I have talked with

more elephant trainers and keepers, & I suspect I am the only one

who ever regularly read The Journal of the Elephant Keepers

Association.

 

I first visited an elephant act (and found much to criticize

about it) in 1972, & had been critical of the San Francisco Zoo

elephant facilities (recently emptied of elephants and closed) since

childhood.

 

 

 

--

Merritt Clifton

Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE

P.O. Box 960

Clinton, WA 98236

 

Telephone: 360-579-2505

Fax: 360-579-2575

E-mail: anmlpepl

Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org

 

[ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing

original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide,

founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the

decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations.

We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year;

for free sample, send address.]