Guest guest Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Dear Pablo, I was a little surprised that you say: " Look at the number of fatal and near fatal cases in Bangalore itself. Dogs are getting more ferocious by the day " . I am also not too sure about the correctness of the 25,000 bites per year but I am trying to get authentic figures. One point I would like to make is that of the 25 deaths from rabies in Bangalore city hospitals last year, all were shown to be from outside the City since there were no isolation hospitals in their areas. Regarding the first point: There has been one fatal case in the Bangalore Municipal Limit. The one yesterday is from outside the City Municipal Limits. In both cases, the common factor is that the areas where the incidents took place were (are) being used to dump slaughter house wastes. The rule is very simple: The number of dogs in any area is directly proportional to the amount of food available. If we do not want dogs in the area, limit the accessibility of food. Whether the food source is " illegal " meat stalls or " legal " meat stalls or any other source is immaterial. Solid waste management has to be an integral part of any dog control programme. Regarding point number two: Dogs are not getting more ferocious by the day. There is sufficient data available that neutering and spaying make an animal more docile / less aggresive. And, surprising as it may seem, there is some evidence that just vaccinating a dog against rabies makes it less prone to bite. That we have a serious problem on our hands is indisputable - the question is how do we tackle this? Neither killing / culling nor removing dogs to the outskirts of the city will work. More aggressive ABC/AR programmes will. You are absolutely correct in saying that an ABC programme will not lead to an immediate drop in dog populations but remember that the average life of a street dog may be about 3 years which means that if there were no additional births, one third of the numbers will reduce each year. A large number of dogs join the street dogs each year due to the irresponsible behaviour of pet owners who allow their dogs to breed and dump the new born in public places. S. Chinny Krishna aapn [aapn ]On Behalf Of Pablo Friday, March 02, 2007 11:50 AM aapn Fwd: Is CNVR (ABC) method a safe bet ? FYI ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Pablo <pablo.tachil Mar 2, 2007 10:17 AM Re: Is CNVR (ABC) method a safe bet ? eti vyas <etivyas Cc: , azam24x7, Rina Dev <rinarules, snehalbhattgspca, " Pradeep Dead Man Walking... " <wildcreeper, elephantvet, Jayasimha Horseshoe unlucky for horse <ngjayasimha, nilesh Hello All, http://news.indiamart.com/cgi-local/news-link.pl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmangalorea n%2Ecom%2Fnews%2Ephp%3Fnewstype%3Dbroadcast%26broadcastid%3D39861 http://news.indiamart.com/cgi-local/news-link.pl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmangalorea n%2Ecom%2Fnews%2Ephp%3Fnewstype%3Dbroadcast%26broadcastid%3D39861 Please go through these two articles. i think it is estimated that there were around 25000 bite cases in Bangalore alone last year with a dog population of around 70000. Dont those numbers startle you all? You might be wondering whats the relation to Eti's email!! Since Eti has brought out the topic of ABC programme and mentioned a lot valid concerns, I wish to ask experts in this field on this list if they are fully convinced if this programme has nothing to do with the changing psychology of the street dogs. Look at the number of fatal and almost fatal cases in Bangalore alone. Dogs are getting more ferocious by the day, attacking in packs. I am totally against SDFB's ideologies because I am a staunch believer in the fact that wiping out any species from a particular geographical location could be detrimental to that area itself. But then the figures they point out has to be noted. http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/07/02/stories/2003070208120300.htm Last time, after the 9 yeat old kid was mauled to death in Bangalore 2 months ago, there was a forum called upon - cops, civic authorities, animal activists and parents. End of the discussion, since the activists were opposing culling or in the least giving guarentee that the numbers would not increase through ABC programmes, the chief asked the activists to follow their own advice - adopt the animals and give them a better living. When asked to give their individual contact details, a huge percentage of the activists provided incorrect details and walked away. So now talking about practacality, what are the options we have??? >> Culling - which even i am against. i dont think we have any right to do that >> More effective ABC programmes? But even assuming that no dogs would breed, would that stop the present incidents of children being killed? Is any one trying to understand why of late there is an increase in dog bite cases? >> Relocation to city outskirts wherein we could drop food at some location daily so that they would not scavenge back into the city. The animal group's main issue is of not having sufficient space. This would solve that problem. Therefore I suggest relocating the packs observed to be dangerous to the city outskirts.....this way atleast they will not be culled and once the menace decreases people will be fine with the dogs around them. If we do not act on this, people's attitude to dogs will worsen only for them to recieve harsher treatment on the streets.... Believe me, I have witnessed in Bangalore when i was there the last week.....people stoning every dog away from around the house because they are scared that might be the " killer dog " . Gone will be those days when you would want to share your left over food with the dogs around your house. My interaction with dogs is by far lesser than you folks; and so its upto all of you, more precisely the orgs capable of financially supporting these causes to react before orgs like SDFB 'win' this on going battle! Thanks, Pabs On 3/2/07, eti vyas <etivyas wrote: > > Dear all, > Recently I came to know that AHF (Animal Help Foundation) is > doing Mass sterilization program in Ahemdabad in association with HSI. They > are doing it according to the (CNVR) Catch/Neuter/Vaccinate/Release method, > in it they release the dogs same day after the operation. And their plan is > to promote this technique in other cities of India like Delhi. > First lets know about this method in brief: > > CNVR brings the neutering clinic to the animals in the community. Based on > the model of WWII military M*A*S*H style hospitals where thousands of lives > were saved in tent hospitals, CNVR programs set-up the neutering clinic's in > a tent where a complete hospital and equipment are used to perform modern > asceptic neutering of dogs. In 2005 HSI proposed a partnership with Animal > Help Foundation and the Ahmedabad Municpal Corporation wherebye HSI provided > the capacity building and training to create 5 (mobile) MASH style field > clinics that will rotate through designated communities to achieve an 75% > sterilzation in each targeted area by using Catch-Neuter-Vaccinate-Relaease > (CNVR). With this method dogs are treated and released the same day back to > the area the dog was caught. Post surgery if the dog's fitness for release > is questionable the dog will remain in a kennel overnight at the field > clinic. > > Males, females and puppies over 8 weeks old are sterilized, monitored, > recovered and released back to the spot where they were picked up. CNVR > Field Clinics move from community to community once the saturation point (80 > – 90%) of the targeted area has reached.The dogs are released post surgery > on the same day. This method was introduced to Yudisthira – Bali Street Dogs > by Sherry Grant in 1998 with fellow veterinarian Dr. Listriani. Having > gained great interest from veterinarians from the UK, Australia, New Zealand > and the United States, veterinarians from around the world volunteered to > help refine and improve the CNVR method over the years to assure a program > that was completely safe, that used the most modern veterinarian surgical > proceedures and protocols – proving that like human medicine during WWII – > animals could safely receive medical attention, both surgical and otherwise, > in an environment that they feel safe because they are in their territory. > Thus, making a bricks and mortor clinic unnecessary to perform modern, safe, > sound and efficient ABC medicine. TODAY: This program is implemented in Bali > Indonesia; Phuket and Bangkok, Thailand; Sri Lanka and in 2006 in Ahmedabad, > Gujarat, India – where in one year a total of 45,011 dogs were neutered in > CNVR M*A*S*H Field Clinics – the largest single neutering project ever to be > launched anywhere in the world. > > First the incision site is no larger than 3 cetimeters and sutures are an > absorabable filament eg. Vicryl, maxon, dexon etc.Peritoneum and linnea > alba interrpted suture pattern using vicryl, dexon.Subcutaneous is > continuous suture pattern. Subdermal mattera with buried knot. > > ABC will vaccinate to protect the existing animals and people from rabies. > They seek to vaccinate and sterilize at least 75% of the dogs in a locality. > In actuality, they seek to vaccinate and sterilize 90-95% - in other words, > all they can catch or are brought to them. > > For details log on to website: > http://www.ahf.org.in/ > > > I have some questions regarding this method :- > > > 1) Every country has a different set of socio cultural, economic and > geographic condition. So, a method which suits one country will not > necessarily suit another country's requirements. Same is the case with CNVR > method. In india the stray dogs are not given due importance, they feed > themselves upon trash, unhealthy n rotten leftover food. So, the chances of > getting infection are more in India. Moreover post operative watch and care > is very crucial. Even if they do Flank spaying and if they use Xylagine and > ketamine for anesthesia which is ideal for them then too the dogs need > atleast 12-24 hours(and the time may be even more in winter season) to > recover fully from the drousiness. Releasing them the very same day means > there cannot be any check over the post operative state. And the dog is very > likely to get infected in the streets. When large number of animals come to > a shelter it is responsibility of the shelter management to take care of > every single animal from admission till discharge(release). And whenever > they perform a surgery or incission it is the vet's duty to take care of the > animal untill he is fit n fine. > > There are so many organisations in India who are doing ABC surgery from > long times but they still cannot claim that no infection will occur to the > animals(dogs). In developed countries like UK and America where a high > sterility is observed during ABC operations still the chances of infection > are more than 5% , what can u think of the surgeries being performed in > Indian climate and situations? Especially in case of large male dog > casteration, chances of swelling and infection are quite common. In fact due > to this problem many organisations do not casterate big male dogs. So, I am > not convinced that this method is a safe bet for the innocent dogs esp. > large males and females. > > 2) They say both Male and female and puppies over 8 weeks old are > sterilized, monitored, recovered and released back to the spot from where > they were picked up. As far as I have observed Rabies vaccine cannot be > given to a pup before 12 weeks, so do you leave the young pups(less than 12 > weeks) only after neutering without vaccinating them against Rabies? > > 3) The vets get training at the CNVR M*A*S*H Field Clinics. As they learn > to operate on the street dogs, they in a way experiment and learn at the > same time on them. There are great chances that such dogs might develop some > complications post surgery. With my experience in Help In Suffering, Jaipur > I can say that when ever new vets come for training in ABC the number of > post operative complications increases manyfold and some dogs stay for more > than 7-10 days because of the infections. And as a rule it is our prime duty > to look after the animals until they recover fully. In most cases the dogs > show signs of infections after a day or two of the surgery. But, if we > release them on the same day or even after a night we cannot make sure > whether the dog is fit. There is no one to look after the dog once he is > released back in the streets on the same day. Who bothers in a crowded city > if the dog has some pain, infection or discomfort afterwards ? > 4) If you want to do large scale ABC program then you must have a big > setup with a lot of kennels. For example - Marwar Animal trust , Jodhpur is > doing it in a very efficient way. They operate 1000 dogs per month in a very > systematic and safe manner. They have a lot of kennels. Flank spaying is > practised by Marwar Animal Trust, HIS, DGAS, JeevAshram etc but still they > monitor the dogs for 2-3 days as the symptoms of infection show after 2 > days. This method of same day release is adopted only in Pet dogs because > they live in safe, hygienic places, they get better food and the owner can > keep a watch on his pet and tell the vets in case of any infection or > discomfort. > > 5) Being a welfare organisation it is our fundamental duty to do the best > job. Success is in doing a task with full dedication And what matters the > most is quality and not the quantity of output. We should not run behind a > pre-set target as the dogs are living souls and not a commodity. Achieving > the target should not be our soul aim. When you catch an animal it is your > fundamental duty to release him back in a healthy state. I have seen some of > the best vets of India, performing surgeries but no one can assure a 100% > infection or complication free operation. Leaving a dog(or any other animal) > in pain and discomfort will not serve any good to any of us. If we cannot > give them proper attention and care during and especially after the > neutering then it is a crime like mass killing of dogs. > > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 We also belong to same Society and your concern is genuine.The AWOs with lot of work done br them and research have found that only ABC is the solution to check the Dog Population and Rabies too.It has been proved in Jaipur, Chennai, kalimpong and other part of Country as well this has been adopted worldwide. The Number of dogs depends upon availability of food i.e. Garbage and leftoverfood.The open dumping of waste is one of the major cause of increasing dogs.This is to be donene by MCs with public Support. THe ABC Rules were notified by Govt. of India ,When Maneka Gandhi was union Minister in Indian Govt.It was made mandatory for all the local Bodies to provide infrastructure and make steering Committees for this purpose with involvement of Animal welfare Organisations.The Municipal corporations are sluggish in adopting the Programme of ABC and poor people have to bear the brunt. Let all the persons who are really serious about this problem to force their elected representatives to get it implemented because it also concerns with human welfare. Regards, Dr.Sandeep K.Jain Former Member,Animal welfare Boerd of India (Ministry of Environment & Forests,Govt. of India.) & State Coordinator,People For Animals ,Punjab. Pablo <pablo.tachil wrote: FYI ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Pablo Mar 2, 2007 10:17 AM Re: Is CNVR (ABC) method a safe bet ? eti vyas Cc: , azam24x7, Rina Dev , snehalbhattgspca, " Pradeep Dead Man Walking... " , elephantvet, Jayasimha Horseshoe unlucky for horse , nilesh Hello All, http://news.indiamart.com/cgi-local/news-link.pl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmangalorean%2E\ com%2Fnews%2Ephp%3Fnewstype%3Dbroadcast%26broadcastid%3D39861 http://news.indiamart.com/cgi-local/news-link.pl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmangalorean%2E\ com%2Fnews%2Ephp%3Fnewstype%3Dbroadcast%26broadcastid%3D39861 Please go through these two articles. i think it is estimated that there were around 25000 bite cases in Bangalore alone last year with a dog population of around 70000. Dont those numbers startle you all? You might be wondering whats the relation to Eti's email!! Since Eti has brought out the topic of ABC programme and mentioned a lot valid concerns, I wish to ask experts in this field on this list if they are fully convinced if this programme has nothing to do with the changing psychology of the street dogs. Look at the number of fatal and almost fatal cases in Bangalore alone. Dogs are getting more ferocious by the day, attacking in packs. I am totally against SDFB's ideologies because I am a staunch believer in the fact that wiping out any species from a particular geographical location could be detrimental to that area itself. But then the figures they point out has to be noted. http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/07/02/stories/2003070208120300.htm Last time, after the 9 yeat old kid was mauled to death in Bangalore 2 months ago, there was a forum called upon - cops, civic authorities, animal activists and parents. End of the discussion, since the activists were opposing culling or in the least giving guarentee that the numbers would not increase through ABC programmes, the chief asked the activists to follow their own advice - adopt the animals and give them a better living. When asked to give their individual contact details, a huge percentage of the activists provided incorrect details and walked away. So now talking about practacality, what are the options we have??? >> Culling - which even i am against. i dont think we have any right to do that >> More effective ABC programmes? But even assuming that no dogs would breed, would that stop the present incidents of children being killed? Is any one trying to understand why of late there is an increase in dog bite cases? >> Relocation to city outskirts wherein we could drop food at some location daily so that they would not scavenge back into the city. The animal group's main issue is of not having sufficient space. This would solve that problem. Therefore I suggest relocating the packs observed to be dangerous to the city outskirts.....this way atleast they will not be culled and once the menace decreases people will be fine with the dogs around them. If we do not act on this, people's attitude to dogs will worsen only for them to recieve harsher treatment on the streets.... Believe me, I have witnessed in Bangalore when i was there the last week.....people stoning every dog away from around the house because they are scared that might be the " killer dog " . Gone will be those days when you would want to share your left over food with the dogs around your house. My interaction with dogs is by far lesser than you folks; and so its upto all of you, more precisely the orgs capable of financially supporting these causes to react before orgs like SDFB 'win' this on going battle! Thanks, Pabs On 3/2/07, eti vyas wrote: > > Dear all, > Recently I came to know that AHF (Animal Help Foundation) is > doing Mass sterilization program in Ahemdabad in association with HSI. They > are doing it according to the (CNVR) Catch/Neuter/Vaccinate/Release method, > in it they release the dogs same day after the operation. And their plan is > to promote this technique in other cities of India like Delhi. > First lets know about this method in brief: > > CNVR brings the neutering clinic to the animals in the community. Based on > the model of WWII military M*A*S*H style hospitals where thousands of lives > were saved in tent hospitals, CNVR programs set-up the neutering clinic's in > a tent where a complete hospital and equipment are used to perform modern > asceptic neutering of dogs. In 2005 HSI proposed a partnership with Animal > Help Foundation and the Ahmedabad Municpal Corporation wherebye HSI provided > the capacity building and training to create 5 (mobile) MASH style field > clinics that will rotate through designated communities to achieve an 75% > sterilzation in each targeted area by using Catch-Neuter-Vaccinate-Relaease > (CNVR). With this method dogs are treated and released the same day back to > the area the dog was caught. Post surgery if the dog's fitness for release > is questionable the dog will remain in a kennel overnight at the field > clinic. > > Males, females and puppies over 8 weeks old are sterilized, monitored, > recovered and released back to the spot where they were picked up. CNVR > Field Clinics move from community to community once the saturation point (80 > – 90%) of the targeted area has reached.The dogs are released post surgery > on the same day. This method was introduced to Yudisthira – Bali Street Dogs > by Sherry Grant in 1998 with fellow veterinarian Dr. Listriani. Having > gained great interest from veterinarians from the UK, Australia, New Zealand > and the United States, veterinarians from around the world volunteered to > help refine and improve the CNVR method over the years to assure a program > that was completely safe, that used the most modern veterinarian surgical > proceedures and protocols – proving that like human medicine during WWII – > animals could safely receive medical attention, both surgical and otherwise, > in an environment that they feel safe because they are in their territory. > Thus, making a bricks and mortor clinic unnecessary to perform modern, safe, > sound and efficient ABC medicine. TODAY: This program is implemented in Bali > Indonesia; Phuket and Bangkok, Thailand; Sri Lanka and in 2006 in Ahmedabad, > Gujarat, India – where in one year a total of 45,011 dogs were neutered in > CNVR M*A*S*H Field Clinics – the largest single neutering project ever to be > launched anywhere in the world. > > First the incision site is no larger than 3 cetimeters and sutures are an > absorabable filament eg. Vicryl, maxon, dexon etc.Peritoneum and linnea > alba interrpted suture pattern using vicryl, dexon.Subcutaneous is > continuous suture pattern. Subdermal mattera with buried knot. > > ABC will vaccinate to protect the existing animals and people from rabies. > They seek to vaccinate and sterilize at least 75% of the dogs in a locality. > In actuality, they seek to vaccinate and sterilize 90-95% - in other words, > all they can catch or are brought to them. > > For details log on to website: > http://www.ahf.org.in/ > > > I have some questions regarding this method :- > > > 1) Every country has a different set of socio cultural, economic and > geographic condition. So, a method which suits one country will not > necessarily suit another country's requirements. Same is the case with CNVR > method. In india the stray dogs are not given due importance, they feed > themselves upon trash, unhealthy n rotten leftover food. So, the chances of > getting infection are more in India. Moreover post operative watch and care > is very crucial. Even if they do Flank spaying and if they use Xylagine and > ketamine for anesthesia which is ideal for them then too the dogs need > atleast 12-24 hours(and the time may be even more in winter season) to > recover fully from the drousiness. Releasing them the very same day means > there cannot be any check over the post operative state. And the dog is very > likely to get infected in the streets. When large number of animals come to > a shelter it is responsibility of the shelter management to take care of > every single animal from admission till discharge(release). And whenever > they perform a surgery or incission it is the vet's duty to take care of the > animal untill he is fit n fine. > > There are so many organisations in India who are doing ABC surgery from > long times but they still cannot claim that no infection will occur to the > animals(dogs). In developed countries like UK and America where a high > sterility is observed during ABC operations still the chances of infection > are more than 5% , what can u think of the surgeries being performed in > Indian climate and situations? Especially in case of large male dog > casteration, chances of swelling and infection are quite common. In fact due > to this problem many organisations do not casterate big male dogs. So, I am > not convinced that this method is a safe bet for the innocent dogs esp. > large males and females. > > 2) They say both Male and female and puppies over 8 weeks old are > sterilized, monitored, recovered and released back to the spot from where > they were picked up. As far as I have observed Rabies vaccine cannot be > given to a pup before 12 weeks, so do you leave the young pups(less than 12 > weeks) only after neutering without vaccinating them against Rabies? > > 3) The vets get training at the CNVR M*A*S*H Field Clinics. As they learn > to operate on the street dogs, they in a way experiment and learn at the > same time on them. There are great chances that such dogs might develop some > complications post surgery. With my experience in Help In Suffering, Jaipur > I can say that when ever new vets come for training in ABC the number of > post operative complications increases manyfold and some dogs stay for more > than 7-10 days because of the infections. And as a rule it is our prime duty > to look after the animals until they recover fully. In most cases the dogs > show signs of infections after a day or two of the surgery. But, if we > release them on the same day or even after a night we cannot make sure > whether the dog is fit. There is no one to look after the dog once he is > released back in the streets on the same day. Who bothers in a crowded city > if the dog has some pain, infection or discomfort afterwards ? > 4) If you want to do large scale ABC program then you must have a big > setup with a lot of kennels. For example - Marwar Animal trust , Jodhpur is > doing it in a very efficient way. They operate 1000 dogs per month in a very > systematic and safe manner. They have a lot of kennels. Flank spaying is > practised by Marwar Animal Trust, HIS, DGAS, JeevAshram etc but still they > monitor the dogs for 2-3 days as the symptoms of infection show after 2 > days. This method of same day release is adopted only in Pet dogs because > they live in safe, hygienic places, they get better food and the owner can > keep a watch on his pet and tell the vets in case of any infection or > discomfort. > > 5) Being a welfare organisation it is our fundamental duty to do the best > job. Success is in doing a task with full dedication And what matters the > most is quality and not the quantity of output. We should not run behind a > pre-set target as the dogs are living souls and not a commodity. Achieving > the target should not be our soul aim. When you catch an animal it is your > fundamental duty to release him back in a healthy state. I have seen some of > the best vets of India, performing surgeries but no one can assure a 100% > infection or complication free operation. Leaving a dog(or any other animal) > in pain and discomfort will not serve any good to any of us. If we cannot > give them proper attention and care during and especially after the > neutering then it is a crime like mass killing of dogs. > > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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