Guest guest Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 I personally have come across numerous incidents of beatings of circus animals. And I have read of and seen videos of many more. Instilling fear by beatings is still the standard method of coercing wild animals to perform. I believe what trainers learned from the Berosini case was that they had to make sure that no one saw them do it. I think it is naive to believe otherwise. John. > I know a lot of people who teach animals to perform in > various ways, but last heard of any who favored beating them > for any reason nearly 20 years ago, in 1988, when Las Vegas > entertainer Bobby Berosini was exposed for allegedly beating > orangutans at almost the same time that the San Diego Zoo was > exposed for beating an elephant named Dunda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Dear Shermaine Sanders, Thanks for bringing to light just yet another incident wherein forced un-elephant like activities are detested by the poor creatures only to be punished....and punished badly BY SOME HUMANS WHO THINK THE ELEPHANTS ENJOY HUMAN ACTIVITIES... I know that among us also, unfortunately we have a lot of people who think quite like the devils running those (and similar) 'shows'....who think activities done by an elephant such as painting or doing a math calculation or playing polo is something that the elephant enjoys doing and these men would go out of their ways to ensure these sort of activities blossom. May be the cheetah's state would be justified with ideas like giving it tread mill practise to run faster, along side them in some marathon across the Savanna. Dear Dr. John....you just hit the nail on the head- " Instilling fear by beatings is still the standard method of coercing wild animals to perform. I believe what trainers learned from the Berosini case was that they had to make sure that no one saw them do it. I think it is naive to believe otherwise. John. " Describes in one sentence what lies behind an Elephant (wild animal) 'performing' in any human event. It is force and fear because of which they are doing so.... Fantastic! This is a war cry to all those people who back humanly forced, un-elephant like activities and still justify it for purely and ONLY personal gains and benefits....... to sit up and take notice and understand that you are no different from the man beating the elephant for not 'enjoying' the math calculation (which Shermaine witnessed) and likewise the many other incidents most of us have witnessed. This leaves no element of doubt that elephants (and other WILD animals) do not naturally enjoy human games and entertainments....thereby I once again plead to all the members here to put in efforts in rehabilitating the captive elephants (to some sanctury wherein they would play their elephant (wild animal) games to their heart's fill and also we should spend the remaining effort in ensuring their safety there rather than suggesting them to be sent for a game of polo because it is *'better'* than carrying tourists up a hill or standing in the hot sun. If someone has anymore doubts, like before I would suggest you to get out of your plush apartments, from your a/c cabins and go to the wild and see the games the elephants play and enjoy! Thanks, Pablo. On 12 Apr 2007 12:54:45 -0700, Dr John Wedderburn <john wrote: > > I personally have come across numerous incidents of beatings of circus > animals. And I have read of and seen videos of many more. Instilling fear > by > beatings is still the standard method of coercing wild animals to perform. > I > believe what trainers learned from the Berosini case was that they had to > make sure that no one saw them do it. I think it is naive to believe > otherwise. > John. > > > I know a lot of people who teach animals to perform in > > various ways, but last heard of any who favored beating them > > for any reason nearly 20 years ago, in 1988, when Las Vegas > > entertainer Bobby Berosini was exposed for allegedly beating > > orangutans at almost the same time that the San Diego Zoo was > > exposed for beating an elephant named Dunda. > > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 >Dogs are fundamentally different in that they are pack animals and >programmed to please and they readily come to regard humans as members of >the pack. This is a conventional belief, but I've known a heck of a lot of other animals who on their own learned to do all sorts of unusual things to please their favorite people--horses, cows, pigs, ducks, chickens, parrots, even cats, contrary to their reputation. Operant conditioning just formalizes that type of learning process, and turns it into a systematic teaching method. > > What happens if an animal is punished for repeatedly >> choosing wrong behaviors is learn that nothing seems to be >> the right choice. >> Eventually that animal will give up trying, and will never >> learn any tricks at all. >I don't think anyone is claiming that reward training is not used by these >bastards. They train by carrot and stick. Plenty of stick first then make >them hungry and then give them rewards for learning intricate steps. But two-thirds of that process is just wasting time & effort. Neither the stick nor making the animals hungry is necessary at all. Merely the pleasure of being rewarded is sufficient to induce learning, and learning occurs most readily for animals, as well as humans, in an emotionally secure environment. This is not yet well-understood even of human education, unfortunately, but we're getting there. The kind of thrashings I routinely got back in school would today be illegal, & didn't teach me a damned thing except how to stick pencils in my back pocket in such a manner as to break pointers, rulers, yardsticks, etc. I didn't quite figure out out to break a canoe paddle over my butt, but worked on it diligently as a problem worthy of solution. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 > > This is a conventional belief, but I've known a heck > > of a lot of other animals who on their own learned to do all >> sorts of unusual things to please their favorite >> people--horses, cows, pigs, ducks, chickens, parrots, >> even cats, contrary to their reputation. >What about elephants? Was speaking of people & animals I've known personally & of whom I can say for certain that what the animal learned to do was not taught deliberately. I have known several elephant trainers, one of whom quit to become a fellow journalist after having children, & they have told me about things their elephants learned on their own & did to help them, but I didn't actually see them do it. > > But two-thirds of that process is just wasting time & effort. > > Neither the stick nor making the animals hungry is necessary at all. >The sadists who gravitate to this kind of job don't think it is a waste of >time and effort - they enjoy it! Must observe that sadism is among the most counterproductive of human proclivities. Why work that damned hard to get one's rocks off? Sadistic behavior in animal training is self-rewarding, in the sense that it causes the animal to fail repeatedly, and ultimately give up, thereby giving the sadist ever more pretext for sadism--but it is utterly ineffective in teaching and motivating, and a sadistic performance trainer will eventually become an ex-performance trainer, because the animals will no longer perform in a satisfactory manner. Sadistic dog trainers can get away with it for much longer, because they typically only have each dog for a few days. In most of the many cases which have been brought to justice in recent years, the whole picture of what the trainer was doing has only come out when many of the dogs' people were able to make contact with each other and fit the pieces they knew together. Usually no one client knew fully what the trainer had been doing. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 > Sadistic behavior in animal training is self-rewarding, > in the sense that it causes the animal to fail repeatedly, > and ultimately give up, thereby giving the sadist ever more > pretext for sadism--but it is utterly ineffective in teaching > and motivating, and a sadistic performance trainer will > eventually become an ex-performance trainer, because the > animals will no longer perform in a satisfactory manner. Unfortunately I don't think sadists are self terminating in that way. Even a sadist can learn at what points rewards work better. He can also learn that his sadism must be hidden. So he keeps his job. John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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