Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Hi Azam, Subhobroto, The reply from CITES in Switzerland seems pretty normal to me. They can only ask the CITES authorities in Thailand and India for information, and nothing more. Both CITES offices in Thailand and India however realize now someone is watching. They in Switzerland have done so, and therefore done all they can do for now. In many cases they will do nothing at all, so you got the better deal I presume. After the deal/exchange is done, and there is a complaint with some evidence or serious concerns attached they might investigate in a more serious way. I have witnessed that with the orangutan smuggling in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia they (John Sellar in particular) were very cooperative and acted slowly but surely. The fact that Cambodia never did a single thing against the importers, smugglers and zoo operators was not their fault as CITES is just a toothless paper tiger... We should campaign to give them those teeth, so countries that do not live up to the CITES agreement will be banned from all trade in wildlife for long periods. As far as I am concerned I feel Cambodia should be banned for at least a few years for allowing the trade to continue and letting the culprits get away with it so openly, it does tarnish the credibility of CITES so clearly. It is very common for zoos worldwide to use shipping-agents/intermediaries as most zoos do not have direct experiences in shipping animals, furthermore the consultants keep up-to-date lists of animals wanted and offered worldwide. These companies are dangerous as they in many cases don't care about ethics at all. As they are between the zoos they are hard to fight, the HKS had the guts last year to offer us to send the 50 orangutans back to Indonesia, for a price we probably could have bought an airplane. We should realize that zoo animals are exchanged legally and that the majority of people find this acceptable (not on this list, I know). What is a major issue however is the fact that zoos in developing countries are mostly badly run with hardly anyone looking in to their activities. I can as a matter of fact guarantee you all that Thai zoos are stocked up with illegally obtained and confiscated wildlife. These animals are taken from the wild and most under appendix 1 of CITES so they should in not be exported (being wild-caught and not captive bred.) but who will look in to this? Why run a zoo well and spend lots of money, when you can easily obtain substitute animals from the illegal network and mix them up with your legal stocks? The exporting zoo will have documents stating the animals were captive bred, easy to obtain in corrupted countries like India, Thailand and Cambodia. And to add to this the WAZA, SEAZA and other zoo organizations claim that they see ethics as one of the most important parts of their commitment to preserve wildlife, however they have never acted against some of their members that were found to have crossed the line badly (Taiping zoo, Malaysia and Safariworld, Thailand) showing us their real credibility. So far the show of responsibility by the zoo community. It seems to me that the zoo just can’t lose now, can they? I hope that in the future we will be able to push for proper monitoring systems, and I am afraid this will take decades. A good option would be to have a database of animal stocks with DNA details, so there is always proof of the legally bred animals and their family-history. To get this implemented might take a long time for all wildlife, but we should push hard for those that are seriously endangered and wanted on the market, such as the great apes. CITES can only work if the members state offices are cooperative and ethical. It is too easy to blame Switzerland; the corruption on the local levels is the biggest threat to the conservation of wildlife. We should monitor those who should monitor our country, as they will give the wrong facts to the CITES authority in Switzerland serving no one but themselves and their buddies, being detrimental to wildlife conservation. Cheers, Edwin Edwin Wiek WFFT www.wfft.org aapn [aapn ] On Behalf Of Thursday, 29 March, 2007 14:35 AZAM SIDDIQUI Cc: aapn Re: India-Thailand Zoo exchange Dear Azam, Thanks for posting this message. The reaction of CITES is a bit disappointing to say the least. It has also been brought to my attention that CITES has not been very helpful in the proposed Gorilla exchange between Rotterdam and Shanghai Zoo. Perhaps the salubrious surroundings of Switzerland are lulling them into a state of stupor. Anyway, there are always other means to pursue if they do not want to help. I have come across a consultancy company that is acting as the intermediary between Assam State Zoo and the Thailand Zoological Parks Association in this deal.Details can be found here : http://www.hksconsultants.com/download/hksbrochure/hksconsultancy_inprofessi onalzooservices.pdf The presence of an intermediary in a so called conservation breeding exchange is cause for concern. They have offices in Thailand, India and Vietnam. Regarding Guwahati Zoo, suspicions regarding animal exchange programmes are valid since the Giraffes and the White Rhino were obtained via animal dealers. Very often these animals are considered to be surplus in reputed zoos which are just dumped anywhere else. American zoos have done this and so have European ones. This company named HKS Designer and Consultant International Company Limited has its offices in India, Thailand and Vietnam. Contacts : *Head Office (Bangkok): *HKS DESIGNER & CONSULTANT INTERNATIONAL CO.,LTD Bldg 1, 4th Floor, Thanormmitt Park, Soi Ramintra 55/8 Tha-rang, Bangkhen, Bangkok 10230 Thailand Tel : 02-945-6477-9* *Fax : 02-945-6480 *Office (India): *Address: No. 39/9 Street No.3, Rajendra Nagar, Dehradun, Uttaranchal 248001, India Tel: + 91 (135) 3290934; +91-9897018833 *Office (Vietnam): * Address: Room 215, 92 Nam Ky Khoi Nghia st, Dist 1, HCMC, Vietnam Tel: +84 8 8218692 *Email Id: *info http://www.hksconsultants.com/consultants/contactus.htm It is a bit early to speculate on their motives but as a consultancy company dealing with zoos in South Asia whose animal acquisition policies are highly dubious, conservation and animal welfare may not be at the top of their priority list. It is good to note that the Orang Utan deal is being cancelled but now the focus should be on the other animals and the legality and ethics of the entire exchange process as it is practised in India and other Asian countries. Ultimately, the zoo community must bear responsibility for any breach of law. It is great that you have brought this deal to light. Best wishes and kind regards, Sincerely, Ghosh On 3/25/07, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote: > > *Update on Assam-Thailand Zoo swap. > > * > > Dear all, > > Would like to share some update on the proposed animal exchange between ' > Thailand Zoological Park' and 'Assam State Zoo'. > > Smt. Maneka Gandhi was the first to give us some good news that the > Orangutans have been spared from the swap. > > She writes: > > * " No orangs will be allowed by CZA. The rest unfortunately will come in > for some " breeding " programme unless **Thailand** stops it seeing the > rubbish conditions of the Guwahati Zoo which is one of the worst kept in the > country. " ** * > > *Maneka Gandhi. > * > > I am sure Edwin Wiek of 'Wildlife Friends of Thailand, who was in Guwahati > in November`2005 to inspect the 'Assam State Zoo' along with a Thai-TV crew > following news of the Thai-Assam animal swap can be instrumental in letting > the Thai authorities know of the conditions of the 'Assam State Zoo' and if > it is feasible to bring here animals from Thailand and vice versa. > > Edwin is following up this Zoo exchange since 2005, when news about this > swap first broke in the media. > > Following is the message received from Edwin a few days back: > > * " I met with the minister of forestry in November 2005 in **Assam** and > visited > the zoo as well as we heard that Thai officials of the zoo authority > visited > the Guwahati zoo earlier that year to discuss an animal swap. > > I explained to them that the orangutans offered by the zoo in **Thailand** > were > illegally obtained animals, confiscated from slaughterhouses (3) and > others > were " donated (2) by illegal owners. The minister assured me that they > would > never allow the import of such animals as they should be returned to their > country of origin. (The minister said during that meeting that he wanted > illegally exported wildlife from **India** returned as well. > > We can now see that the Indian government does not care where the > " merchandise " comes from, as long as it " sells " . > > Make it very clear; these orangutans were poached from **Borneo** and > illegally > shipped to **Thailand**. Anyone accepting these animals is taking in > stolen > goods as payment for other animals. " > * > Edwin Wiek > > WFFT > > http://www.wfft.org > > * > * > > Following is the response by CITES to Ms. Anuradha Sawhney, Chief > functionary, PETA-India: > > Marcos.Silva [Marcos.Silva] > Thu 3/22/2007 10:53 > Anuradha Sawhney > Cc: Virginia.Rothenbuhler > Fw: Orangutans coming to India from Thailand in exchange for > endangered Indian wildlife > > > Dear Mr. Sawhney, > > Thank for your message dated 22/03/2007 on the above mentioned subject. > > We do not have information on the proposed trade that you refer to. We > have therefore shared your message with the Management Authorities of India > and Thailand. > > Unless we receive evidence that the proposed trade is not in accordance > with the Convention and relevant national legislation, we have no cause to > take any action on this matter. > > Thank you for your message and for your support of the CITES. > > Yours sincerely > > Marcos Silva > Senior Capacity Building Officer (Training) > CITES Secretariat > United Nations Environment Programme > Chemin des Anémones, CH-1219 Chatelaine > Geneva, Switzerland > > Tel.: (41 22) 917-8120 > Fax: (41 22) 797-3417 > E-mail: marcos.silva > URL: http://www.cites.org > > ----- Forwarded by INFO-CITES/UNEP/GVA/UNO on 22/03/2007 12:18 PM ----- > > " Anuradha Sawhney " <anuradhas > > 22/03/2007 12:12 PM > > To > <info > cc > Subject > Orangutans coming to India from Thailand in exchange for endangered Indian > wildlife > > Dear Sir, > > > We are writing to you from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > (PETA) India to share our concern about the proposal of the Thailand > Zoological Park Organisation to send > five orang-utans to the Assam state zoo in the North east of India in > exchange for an endangered Indian Rhino. How can Thailand send Orangutans > that have been stolen from another country and that country is demanding > their return? > > They also plan to send two clouded leopards, one stump-tailed macaque and > three binturongs to this same zoo. > > There is international concern about this exchange and we hope that CITES > will ask some questions of Thai authorities. > > We await your response. > > Sincerely, > > Anuradha Sawhney > > Chief functionary > PETA India > > -------- ---------------------------- > > The Assam Thai Zoo swap ( Archives ) > > Following is the response from CITES to a letter from Shirley McGreal of > IPPL with regards to the zoo swap in 2005: > ** " John Sellar " <john.sellar Add to Contacts<http://mail.animail.net/caremail/noframes/mailer/t_mailer.asp?whatt odo=t_addalias & EditType=NewA & NICKNAME=John+Sellar & EMAILADDRESS=john%2Esellar %40unep%2Ech> > *Date:* Tue, Aug 30 2005 3:12:43 PM +0200 > *Cc:* " azam siddiqui " <azamsiddiqui > > Dear Ms McGreal, > > The CITES Management Authority of Thailand has advised me that there has > been no application to export orangutans from Thailand Zoological Park . > > Yours sincerely, > > *John M. Sellar > Anti-smuggling, Fraud and Organized Crime/La lutte contre la contrebande, > la fraude et le crime organisé/**Anticontrabando, fraude y delincuencia > organizada ** > **CITES** Secretariat/Secretaría **CITES**/Secrétariat **CITES** * > *International Environment House > Chemin des Anémones > 1219 Châtelaine - Geneva > Switzerland/Suiza/Suisse * > > *tel. (+4122) 917 8139 > tel (+4122) 917 8293 (direct) > fax (+4122) 797 3417 > email: john.sellar * > > *CITES** Secretariat Web site: www.cites.org * > > *The information contained in this message may be confidential, and is > intended only for the use of the individual or organization named above. If > the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please notify the > Secretariat as soon as possible.* > > > > > ** Shirley McGreal [smcgreal] > *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2005 3:35 PM > *To:* John Sellar > *Cc:* azam siddiqui > *Subject:* RE: Thailand planning to swap orangutans for rare Indian > wildlife > Mr. Sellar, it looks like Thailand is using some of its stolen orangutans > as " trading cards " to obtain rare wildlife from remote northeastern India. > How can Thailand trade stolen orangutans when the Government of Indonesia > has requested their return? This message is being copied to concerned groups > active in Assam who initially contacted IPPL about this situation. I hope > that CITES can ask some questions of Thai authorities. Shirley McGreal > > *Link: > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050730/asp/guwahati/story_5050818.asp > > **Assam Zoo plans animal swap > > July 29: *The Assam State Zoo will receive chimpanzees and orang-utans > from Thailand Zoological Park in exchange of a male rhino if the discussions > held today receive the Central Zoo Authority's seal of approval. > > Officials of the state forest department and the Thailand Zoological Park > Organisation today agreed to exchange the animals in a meeting at the Assam > State Zoo. > > Besides three chimpanzees and two orang-utans, Thailand has also agreed to > give one female clouded leopard, three binturongs (bearcat), one pig-tailed > macaque and two female stumped macaques all Schedule I animals. > > Assam chief wildlife warden M.C. Malakar, who attended the meeting, said > the state forest department is waiting for the final nod on the exchange > plan from the Central Zoo Authority in New Delhi. Malakar and the Thai > delegates have already met their officials. > > Sources said the final clearance might take some time as several aspects, > such as health of the animals, need to be considered. Once the green signal > comes through, the two sides will chalk out the modalities and sign a > memorandum of understanding. > > The representatives also discussed wildlife conservation in their > respective countries and the support received from their governments. > > The Thai team agreed to provide technical training in designing zoo > enclosures and in other areas of wildlife conservation. A conservation > programme on common species of Assam and Thailand is also on the cards. Led > by its director-general Sophan Dumnoi, the Thailand Zoological Park > Organisation team comprises Suriya Sangpong, Thanapat Pongtamon, Kravee > Kreethapon and Ratna Kumar Duraisingam. > > Dr. Shirley McGreal, Chairwoman > International Primate Protection League > PO Box 766 > Summerville, SC 29484, USA > Phone - 843-871-2280, Fax- 843-871-7988 > E-mail - smcgreal, Web: www.ippl.org > > > > Finally may I once again request you all to write to the following > authorities with regards to the proposed Zoo swap considering your > experiences in Thai, Indonesian and Indian Zoo conditions and animal > exchanges. > > With the information that is creeping in it certainly does not seem that > this particular deal is healthy. > > > > Write to: > > > > 1. *The Secretary** > *Government of India, Ministry of Environment & Forests > Paryavaran Bhavan, CGO Complex, Lodhi Road > *New Delhi - 110 003. (**INDIA**). * > Telephone:+91-11-24361147 > E-mail: envisect > <envisect?subject=Response+from+MoEF+Website> > > > 2. The Member Secretary , Central Zoo Authority > Annexe-VI, Bikaner House, > Shahjahan Road, New Delhi-110011 > > Phone # 91-011-23381585,23073072,23070375 > Fax # 91-011-23386012 cza NEW!!! cza<cza+> > > > 3. All Thai embassy contacts in India here: http://www.thaiemb.org.in/community/thai_government_agencies.asp > > > Royal Thai Embassy, New Delhi > > Email : thaidel > > Mr. Wanna Pherngmak , Royal Thai Consulate-General , Kolkata Email: thaiccu > > > Miss Madurapochana Ittarong , Royal Thai Consulate-General , Mumbai , > thaimub > > Mr. Suphot Yanthukij , Royal Thai Consulate-General, Chennai , > thaicnn > > http://www.thaiembassy.org/ > > Regards, > > Azam Siddiqui > > > -------- -------------------------------- > On 3/22/07, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > Please find attached below two news reports. > > The first one is a fresh news report of the Thai-Assam zoo exchange > > (swapping a Male Rhino from India for Orangutans, Binturongs, Clouded > > Leopards and Stump Tailed Macaques) getting a go ahead. > > The second report which is an editorial archive published in 2005 has > > highlighted the vested interests involved in this long pending animal > > exchange deal. > > > > > > I know most of us will agree to the fact that the proposed animal > > exchange between the Thailand Zoological Park and the Assam state zoo which > > has been an issue of concern for many years now needs to be blocked > > considering the fact that there is a strong possibility of the Orangutans > > being smuggled from Indonesia. The improper housing facility of the Thai Zoo > > and other factors. > > > > I have received overwhelming letters of protest from people all across, > > but it will be much better if we collectively work on this, share and > > exchange information and stuff on how each one of us plans to take up this > > matter as time is short. > > > > I am sure most of us have written to the concerned authorities in > > Thailand, India CITES etc too. > > > > I would be great to know the official reactions of each one so that I > > can go to the press and the media here. > > The press has a very important role to play as far as getting this > > animal exchange stopped is concerned. > > By giving them our reactions we can also help them in getting out the > > reactions from the authorities such as the Central Zoo authority etc. > > > > I would appreciate we communicate between ourselves, exchange emails > > asap and please do send me your letters of protest as to why you feel that > > this deal is controversial and needs to be stopped. > > > > Thanking you, > > > > Azam Siddiqui > > > > > > ------ ---------------------------- > > > > Link: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070320/asp/guwahati/story_7538075.asp > > > > > > *Zoo nod to animal swap- Thailand to give 10 animals & a bird for a > > rhino > > > > A STAFF REPORTER* > > > > March 19: After a gap of three long years, the Central Zoo Authority > > (CZA) has given its nod to the first-ever animal exchange plan of the > > Assam state zoo with a foreign counterpart — the Thailand Zoological > > Park Organisation. > > > > The plan was mooted in 2004 after two officials of the state zoo > > visited Dusit and Khekhow zoos in Thailand and discussed the idea of > > animal exchange. The two had visited Thailand to attend a training > > programme. The Thailand Zoological Park Organisation had also > > presented a draft memorandum to the officials. > > > > " The CZA has given the green signal after examining the proposal from > > both sides, " said its member secretary B.R. Sharma, who was in the > > city to attend a two-day meeting on initiating conservation breeding > > in endemic endangered species in the region. > > > > The meeting ended yesterday. > > > > He said many issues had to be considered before giving the clearance > > to an animal exchange plan, especially when it is with a foreign zoo, > > and hence the process took so much time. > > > > Under the animal exchange plan, the state zoo will hand over a male > > rhino and receive two clouded leopards, five orang-utans, one > > stump-tailed macaque and three binturongs. > > > > The only hitch was over giving away a rhino, since it is the state > > animal, but the zoo finally agreed to do so after considering all > > related issues, said an official of the zoo. > > > > At the meeting, the CZA also gave the state zoo the responsibility to > > initiate conservation breeding of golden langur, serow and sun bear. > > > > Officials from the various zoos across the region were present at the > > meeting, which discussed various issues related to conservation > > breeding. They also suggested tips to improve the state zoo. > > > > Since the state zoo does not have a sun bear, the Central Zoo > > Authority has agreed to help it procure one from another zoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ - > > > > > > > > Link: http://www.ecoterra.org.uk/sites/background-info.htm > > > > > > > > *EDITORIAL: END INHUMANE WILDLIFE TRADE* > > > > The Nation, published on July 24, 2005 > > > > Controversial elephant deal with Australia belies even worse abuses > > fuelled by greed and corruption > > > > The elephant-exchange deal between Thailand's Zoological Park > > Organisation (ZPO) and two Australian zoos has drawn the ire of > > wildlife-conservation activists in both countries. However, the crux of the > > dispute is much more than hair-splitting technicalities over the prohibition > > of cross-border trade in wild animals under the Convention on International > > Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna (Cites). It highlights > > Thailand's > > shabby record with regard to its own indigenous wildlife. > > > > The deal finally got the green light from Canberra last week, and eight > > elephants currently housed in Kanchanaburi will soon be on their way to > > Sydney's Taronga Park Zoo and the Melbourne Zoo. > > > > The " exchange " has been condemned by wildlife groups in both countries, > > who say the elephants should remain in their native habitat and not be sent > > abroad. Local activists say the agreement is linked to a bilateral > > animal-exchange accord signed in Canberra last year and to arrangements to > > secure Australian animals for the Chiang Mai Night Safari, a pet project of > > Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who hails from that northern city. > > > > Thailand is a signatory to Cites. Elephants are listed as an endangered > > species, and trade is allowed only under exceptional conditions, such as for > > scientific study. > > > > Ian Campbell, Australian minister for the environment and heritage, said > > the approval was consistent with both the Australian Environment Protection > > and Biodiversity Conservation Act of 1999 and Cites. He insisted that the > > elephant importation would be part of a breeding programme that represents > > Australia's contribution to the preservation of the species. > > > > But wildlife activists claim the justification cited by Canberra was an > > afterthought and a dishonest move to get around Cites, as the original plan > > was to acquire the animals simply for exhibition at the two public zoos in > > Australia. > > > > The transaction calls for a cash payment and in-kind contributions from > > Australia in the form of 10 indigenous Australian species, koalas, kangaroos > > and other marsupials. Conservationists say they fear that such a move could > > set a dangerous precedent. > > > > It is an important debate, because of the treasured status here of > > elephants and the reality that Thailand has difficulty managing their > > welfare. The Kingdom has about 3,000 captive elephants and 1,600 in the > > wild, but their natural habitat has dwindled. > > > > At present, most domesticated elephants are used for taking tourists on > > jungle treks or performing in shows. Unfortunately, many, along with their > > mahouts, are out of work and must roam the streets of Bangkok and other > > cities, begging for their keep. > > > > The elephant deal is done, but many other dubious and troubling animal > > " exchanges " are looming, and they have the potential to generate far greater > > controversy. > > > > Thailand needs to get its priorities straight. There is no denying that > > Thailand is a flagrant offender of Cites rules and has consistently failed > > with wildlife-conservation programmes, thanks to the widespread corruption > > that fosters the notoriously lax law enforcement. > > > > *Meanwhile, Thai zoo officials are reportedly scouring the world for up > > to 1,500 animals for the Chiang Mai Night Safari. The most contentious deal > > is with the Kenyan government, to capture 300 wild animals. Wildlife groups > > everywhere have voiced outrage. > > > > There was also news last week in a **Calcutta** newspaper of Thai > > authorities offering wildlife officials in the northern Indian state of > > **Assam** another " exchange " : three chimpanzees and two orang utans for > > one male Indian rhino. ** > > > > The Thai government should be very careful about trading in orang utans, > > animals that are not native to **Thailand**, given that Indonesian > > officials and wildlife groups have been lobbying for the return of dozens of > > them from a private tourist facility in **Bangkok**. DNA tests proved > > beyond all doubt last year that more than 40 orang utans at Safari World > > were indeed Indonesian and not bred in captivity as claimed by the > > park-owner. * > > > > The government would be very wise to ease concerns about its wildlife > > exchanges by returning the Safari World orang utans to Indonesia as promised > > and treading very carefully in its contentious animal deal with Kenya. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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