Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 One of the natural models for change I sometimes use to understand or explain the process for social change is plant succession. On bare rock, you get the pioneer plants, lichen and mosses, that create the conditions where the next generation of plants, still small and shallow rooted, can establish themselves. And then that next generation creates the conditions where slightly larger and a little deeper rooted third generation of plants can be established. And it goes on like this for hundreds of years until you get the climatic old-growth forests that support a great diversity of life. The life of David Brower can show how this works in the process for social change. Starting with the Sierra Club, making change with that organization as far as the Sierra Club would go before becoming entrenched, Brower went on to found Friends of the Earth to make change beyond what the Sierra Club would do. Without the groundwork already done by the Sierra Club, an organization like the Friends of the Earth might not have been as successful. But there was still a limit to how far Friends of the Earth would go, so to go beyond that Brower went on to found the Earth Island Institute. And there are people who have gone beyond all this, and there are parallel processes for advancing peace, social justice and other related values. Many of us as vegans and vegetarians are in on the continuing processes of advancing these values. I've been a vegetarian and an activist for over 30 years, and I've seen lots of advancement that makes being vegetarian or vegan easier. I've also come to see " veganism " as an ideal to which no one in this society can live up to 100%, but which still has meaning for minimizing harm and bettering human society. Two value logic doesn't give us a useful language to describe how an unattainable ideal can still have a meaning and a benefit, but the multivalued form of " fuzzy " logic does, even if we're vague about our calculations. We can estimate that so-and-so is 99% vegan, even estimate that an ovo lacto vegetarian is something like 90% vegan, so we can talk about a common path we're all on, so talk about unity in action, not so much " you're not a vegan because you..... " As each person steps on the path, it makes it easier for all of us to go beyond our previous limits. A 99% vegan might then be able to become 99.9% vegan... , " linda " <lindai81@c...> wrote: > > For me, after moving to being a vegan from an ethical and moral basis I began to also be more and more aware of a lot of other things that I needed to do from an ethical basis. Annoying as hell though...it keeps growing, being ignorant was sure easier. In wanting to preserve life one ends up seeing how one must not participate in the destruction of it through one's own actions. So, to preserve the earth's life and the future generations I have had to stop buying non-organic products as much as possible which includes GMO foods of course. However, the Lotus Garden restaurant that I brag about, although totally vegan, is not organic I believe. Have I given it up? No. No matter how hard one tries how can one live totally in line with the idea of doing no harm? Amy? ~PT~? Shawn? Bron? Anyone? Maybe that is a question for the new year. > linda > > > southernflower@g... > I realize that some vegetarians do not eat the way they do for ethical > reasons, but others of us who do are helped by such information. :>) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 This was a wonderful analogy and the entire post was too. Thank you. Very helpful indeed...never thought about it in these terms but absolutely meaningful. I try to stay focussed at this point on what it is that I am self-compelled to do so that I don't get discouraged by what I see happening in the world, but this indeed puts that into perspective and I just simply become a particle in all of the other particles which eventually make up a whole (don't laugh, bad analogy I know). It is kind of silly that I didn't really use that when in view of every other change that society or the world has ever undergone it happened in small increments until it became a whole. Will we prevent the destruction of life on earth as we know it? The earth will heal itself, but maybe without us. linda - Tom One of the natural models for change I sometimes use to understand or explain the process for social change is plant succession. On bare rock, you get the pioneer plants, lichen and mosses, that create the conditions where the next generation of plants, still small and shallow rooted, can establish themselves. And then that next generation creates the conditions where slightly larger and a little deeper rooted third generation of plants can be established. And it goes on like this for hundreds of years until you get the climatic old-growth forests that support a great diversity of life. The life of David Brower can show how this works in the process for social change. Starting with the Sierra Club, making change with that organization as far as the Sierra Club would go before becoming entrenched, Brower went on to found Friends of the Earth to make change beyond what the Sierra Club would do. Without the groundwork already done by the Sierra Club, an organization like the Friends of the Earth might not have been as successful. But there was still a limit to how far Friends of the Earth would go, so to go beyond that Brower went on to found the Earth Island Institute. And there are people who have gone beyond all this, and there are parallel processes for advancing peace, social justice and other related values. Many of us as vegans and vegetarians are in on the continuing processes of advancing these values. I've been a vegetarian and an activist for over 30 years, and I've seen lots of advancement that makes being vegetarian or vegan easier. I've also come to see " veganism " as an ideal to which no one in this society can live up to 100%, but which still has meaning for minimizing harm and bettering human society. Two value logic doesn't give us a useful language to describe how an unattainable ideal can still have a meaning and a benefit, but the multivalued form of " fuzzy " logic does, even if we're vague about our calculations. We can estimate that so-and-so is 99% vegan, even estimate that an ovo lacto vegetarian is something like 90% vegan, so we can talk about a common path we're all on, so talk about unity in action, not so much " you're not a vegan because you..... " As each person steps on the path, it makes it easier for all of us to go beyond our previous limits. A 99% vegan might then be able to become 99.9% vegan... , " linda " <lindai81@c...> wrote: > > For me, after moving to being a vegan from an ethical and moral basis I began to also be more and more aware of a lot of other things that I needed to do from an ethical basis. Annoying as hell though...it keeps growing, being ignorant was sure easier. In wanting to preserve life one ends up seeing how one must not participate in the destruction of it through one's own actions. So, to preserve the earth's life and the future generations I have had to stop buying non-organic products as much as possible which includes GMO foods of course. However, the Lotus Garden restaurant that I brag about, although totally vegan, is not organic I believe. Have I given it up? No. No matter how hard one tries how can one live totally in line with the idea of doing no harm? Amy? ~PT~? Shawn? Bron? Anyone? Maybe that is a question for the new year. > linda > > > southernflower@g... > I realize that some vegetarians do not eat the way they do for ethical > reasons, but others of us who do are helped by such information. :>) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Tom, Thoughtful analogy and post. Measured and even writing. Are you perchance an author? I think you should strongly consider the idea, if you aren't right now. :>) I'm with you in your philosophy, I think. We, as vegans and vegetarians, do the best we can...and it's a journey...it's a journey all the time, toward what I think of as " Not Perfect But Better " . Vegetarians and vegans are on the path, just at different points of the path. Sometimes we might get very passionate about a certain rock or flower or stream that we see at our level of the path--to the extent that we can't see that someone else on the path has never experienced that particular object in the way we have. Maybe they've never even seen it before; maybe it's a totally new thing to them. So it might take them time to get to where they appreciate the object that we are so passionate about on the path. Ideally we could all be 100 percent vegans, but that ain't happenin' in this world, as you point out so eloquently--so we do the best we can, where we are on the path, and we try to help each other and to support each other wherever we are too. I confess that in my zeal sometimes I forget this very important point, and I thank you, Tom, for pointing it out so graciously and tactfully. If I've hurt anyone's feelings by misplaced zeal, I apologize to you most sincerely. I wouldn't hurt anybody for the world, but it does happen as I am certainly very imperfect. Thanks again, Tom. You've got a real talent in your writing and it was sure a blessing to me this evenin'. :>) Bron On 1/10/06, Tom <antipreophogistiii wrote: > > One of the natural models for change I sometimes use to understand > or explain the process for social change is plant succession. On > bare rock, you get the pioneer plants, lichen and mosses, that > create the conditions where the next generation of plants, still > small and shallow rooted, can establish themselves. And then that > next generation creates the conditions where slightly larger and a > little deeper rooted third generation of plants can be established. > And it goes on like this for hundreds of years until you get the > climatic old-growth forests that support a great diversity of life. > > The life of David Brower can show how this works in the process for > social change. Starting with the Sierra Club, making change with > that organization as far as the Sierra Club would go before becoming > entrenched, Brower went on to found Friends of the Earth to make > change beyond what the Sierra Club would do. Without the groundwork > already done by the Sierra Club, an organization like the Friends of > the Earth might not have been as successful. But there was still a > limit to how far Friends of the Earth would go, so to go beyond that > Brower went on to found the Earth Island Institute. > > And there are people who have gone beyond all this, and there are > parallel processes for advancing peace, social justice and other > related values. Many of us as vegans and vegetarians are in on the > continuing processes of advancing these values. > > I've been a vegetarian and an activist for over 30 years, and I've > seen lots of advancement that makes being vegetarian or vegan > easier. I've also come to see " veganism " as an ideal to which no one > in this society can live up to 100%, but which still has meaning for > minimizing harm and bettering human society. Two value logic doesn't > give us a useful language to describe how an unattainable ideal can > still have a meaning and a benefit, but the multivalued form > of " fuzzy " logic does, even if we're vague about our calculations. > We can estimate that so-and-so is 99% vegan, even estimate that an > ovo lacto vegetarian is something like 90% vegan, so we can talk > about a common path we're all on, so talk about unity in action, not > so much " you're not a vegan because you..... " As each person steps > on the path, it makes it easier for all of us to go beyond our > previous limits. A 99% vegan might then be able to become 99.9% > vegan... > > , " linda " <lindai81@c...> > wrote: > > > > For me, after moving to being a vegan from an ethical and moral > basis I began to also be more and more aware of a lot of other > things that I needed to do from an ethical basis. Annoying as hell > though...it keeps growing, being ignorant was sure easier. In > wanting to preserve life one ends up seeing how one must not > participate in the destruction of it through one's own actions. So, > to preserve the earth's life and the future generations I have had > to stop buying non-organic products as much as possible which > includes GMO foods of course. However, the Lotus Garden restaurant > that I brag about, although totally vegan, is not organic I believe. > Have I given it up? No. No matter how hard one tries how can one > live totally in line with the idea of doing no harm? Amy? ~PT~? > Shawn? Bron? Anyone? Maybe that is a question for the new year. > > linda > > > > > > southernflower@g... > > I realize that some vegetarians do not eat the way they do for > ethical > > reasons, but others of us who do are helped by such > information. :>) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 , " linda " <lindai81@c...> wrote: > > It is kind of silly that I didn't really use that when in view of every other change that society or the world has ever undergone it happened in small increments until it became a whole. We are products of our culture. Studies show that we naturally think in terms of fuzzy logic, but we're taught to analyze everything in terms of two-value logic as we're growing up. This ends up working, I think, like the removal of words in the language in the novel 1984, making it difficult for us to put into words the truths we are seeing, making it difficult for us to unite to change our society for the common good. It'll take conscious re-learning the principles of fuzzy logic for us to undo what we're taught. Some east asian cultures have always seen things in terms of shades of grey. Japan has readily incorporated fuzzy logic into its artificial intelligence technology and has lept way ahead of the US, but it's still hard to find courses in fuzzy logic in American universities. The point is: don't be hard on yourself. Shifting our modes of thinking is another thing we all in western society need practice on... > Will we prevent the destruction of life on earth as we know it? The earth will heal itself, but maybe without us. That is a hard question. But I think most vertibrate species have their fate tied up with ours, so our only option is to try to get the best out of human society. Every person that turns onto this path improves our chances.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 , <southernflower@g...> wrote: > > Tom, > Thoughtful analogy and post. Measured and even writing. Are you perchance an author? I think you should strongly consider the idea, if you aren't right now. :>) I've never been paid for writing, but I have written things published here and there, mainly letters to the editor. What I wrote about yesterday is something I've thought about for some time - years even - so I have developed something of a language to talk about those ideas - and then I was rolling along on what I call " caffeine consciousness " .... > > I'm with you in your philosophy, I think. We, as vegans and vegetarians, do > the best we can...and it's a journey...it's a journey all the time, toward > what I think of as " Not Perfect But Better " . Vegetarians and vegans are on > the path, just at different points of the path. Sometimes we might get very > passionate about a certain rock or flower or stream that we see at our level > of the path--to the extent that we can't see that someone else on the path > has never experienced that particular object in the way we have. Maybe > they've never even seen it before; maybe it's a totally new thing to them. > So it might take them time to get to where they appreciate the object that > we are so passionate about on the path. Ideally we could all be 100 percent > vegans, but that ain't happenin' in this world, as you point out so > eloquently--so we do the best we can, where we are on the path, and we try > to help each other and to support each other wherever we are too. I confess > that in my zeal sometimes I forget this very important point, and I thank > you, Tom, for pointing it out so graciously and tactfully. > > If I've hurt anyone's feelings by misplaced zeal, I apologize to you most > sincerely. I wouldn't hurt anybody for the world, but it does happen as I > am certainly very imperfect. Again, as I responded to Linda, we're products of our culture, so don't be hard on yourself. Positive reinforcement of ourselves as we make our breakthroughs is a far more important thing to do.... > > Thanks again, Tom. You've got a real talent in your writing and it was sure a blessing to me this evenin'. :>) Thank you for your compliment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 You're welcome, Tom. And your graciousness is most appreciated. Caffeine consciousness or no, you've got a way with words and ideas. :>) Bron On 1/11/06, Tom <antipreophogistiii wrote: > > , <southernflower@g...> > wrote: > > > > Tom, > > Thoughtful analogy and post. Measured and even writing. Are you > perchance an author? I think you should strongly consider the idea, > if you aren't right now. :>) > > I've never been paid for writing, but I have written things > published here and there, mainly letters to the editor. What I wrote > about yesterday is something I've thought about for some time - > years even - so I have developed something of a language to talk > about those ideas - and then I was rolling along on what I > call " caffeine consciousness " .... > > > > > I'm with you in your philosophy, I think. We, as vegans and > vegetarians, do > > the best we can...and it's a journey...it's a journey all the > time, toward > > what I think of as " Not Perfect But Better " . Vegetarians and > vegans are on > > the path, just at different points of the path. Sometimes we might > get very > > passionate about a certain rock or flower or stream that we see at > our level > > of the path--to the extent that we can't see that someone else on > the path > > has never experienced that particular object in the way we have. > Maybe > > they've never even seen it before; maybe it's a totally new thing > to them. > > So it might take them time to get to where they appreciate the > object that > > we are so passionate about on the path. Ideally we could all be > 100 percent > > vegans, but that ain't happenin' in this world, as you point out so > > eloquently--so we do the best we can, where we are on the path, > and we try > > to help each other and to support each other wherever we are too. > I confess > > that in my zeal sometimes I forget this very important point, and > I thank > > you, Tom, for pointing it out so graciously and tactfully. > > > > If I've hurt anyone's feelings by misplaced zeal, I apologize to > you most > > sincerely. I wouldn't hurt anybody for the world, but it does > happen as I > > am certainly very imperfect. > > Again, as I responded to Linda, we're products of our culture, so > don't be hard on yourself. Positive reinforcement of ourselves as we > make our breakthroughs is a far more important thing to do.... > > > > > Thanks again, Tom. You've got a real talent in your writing and it > was sure a blessing to me this evenin'. :>) > > Thank you for your compliment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 , <southernflower@g...> wrote: > > You're welcome, Tom. And your graciousness is most appreciated. > > Caffeine consciousness or no, you've got a way with words and ideas. :>) ditto, what she said, Tom. Very eloquent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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