Guest guest Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Hi, I have been reading this chain of emails going around about a remark made by our very own Mr. Meritt and Azam and Shubroto pitching in against the same. Azam you claim yourself to be someone trained in elephant welfare under Mrs. Sheldrick's supervision and Shubroto, I believe you are someone who has a decent experience in animal welfare and a fair amount of knowledge on animal psychology. Then why the hell are you both debating with an editor who has just listed down news of elephant deaths in the order of their frequency of occurance. I am sure that is what and is the only thing Meritt was pointing to in his email. Of course even he has atleast heard from majority of the renowned researchers and scientists that psychologically and most of the times physically for the elephants..... the blood-sport called elephant polo is not just a nightmare but a curse which if he were given an option to list out another rating, could fall into the top spot of " HAS TO BE BANNED SPORT/CIRCUS " . The fight for elephant polo still wages folks! I did see emails from all corners of the globe with an urge to redesign our war against the pro-elephantpolo lobby! Thanks, Pablo. On 11/22/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >*<1. When was the survey for top 10 or top 100 etc etc threats to > >animal & well-being carried out? Is anyone aware of any such survey, > >or results? > > Just on the subject of elephants, & just in Asia, the top > 10 sources of human-associated mortality in recent years appear to > be-- > > 1) Ivory poaching. > > 2) Electrocutions by fencing. > > 3) Collisions with trains. > > 4) Collisions with motor vehicles. > > 5) Shooting to halt rampages. > > 6) Drought caused in part by human diversion of water sources. > > 7) Foot & leg injuries caused by excessive standing or > walking on paved surfaces. > > 8) Being fed or otherwise consuming inappropriate objects > at temples & zoos. > > 9) Accidentally ingesting agricultural pesticides. > > 10) Injuries suffered on the job in connection with logging, > road-building, etc. > > This does not include habitat destruction, which is a causal > factor in most of the above, or exposure to human diseases, such as > tuberculosis, which also pass elephant-to-elephant, or any of the > effects of warfare, many of which contribute to mortality. > > Neither does the above include forest fires and floods, also > significant causes of elephant mortality and also largely the result > of human activity. > > Depending on how one defines " human-associated, " the list > could probably be expanded to 15 or 20 total categories, many of > them involving hundreds of elephants. > > Elephant polo would not be among the top 10, 15, or 20, > though, because elephant polo has not yet killed any elephants. > Perhaps some elephants may eventually die from some cause associated > with elephant polo, but after 30-odd years it is a bit surprising > that it has not happened yet, if elephant polo is to be considered a > serious threat to elephant well-being. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 >I am sure that is what and is the only thing Meritt was pointing to >in his email. Of course even he has atleast heard from majority of >the renowned researchers and scientists that psychologically and >most of the times physically for the elephants..... the blood-sport >called elephant polo is not just a nightmare but a curse which if he >were given an option to list out another rating, could fall into the >top spot of " HAS TO BE BANNED SPORT/CIRCUS " . Actually, I have not heard a word to that effect from anyone who has not already staked out a hard-and-fast position against the idea that elephants who are already captive should be given anything to do besides stand around. The debate over elephant polo is not to be confused with the debate over whether or not elephants should be captured, because no elephant has ever been captured expressly for elephant polo, or even with elephant polo as a possible mentioned destination, and no elephant has ever been used in elephant polo who was not already a longtime captive working elephant. Neither is the debate over elephant polo to be confused with such hypothetical alternatives as polo-playing or going to a sanctuary: the sanctuaries to which they might go do not yet exist. If some day they do, polo-playing or sanctuary might be an actual set of choices. The sole here-and-now real issue involving elephant polo is whether these few dozen elephants are going to be used to play polo for 10 minutes at a stretch on grass once in a while, or continue to spend all day every day either hauling tourists through traffic on hot pavement, or waiting to haul tourists on hot pavement if any tourists show up. Any other discussion about this is just so much more hot air rising over hot parts of the world, possibly sufficient to raise a vulture a few extra inches on the thermal current--if any vultures survive in those regions. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 <Azam you claim yourself to be someone trained in elephant welfare under Mrs. Sheldrick's supervision> Dear Pablo, I do not claim to be trained in elephant welfare, it is a hard fact that I was with Daphne, and did spend some quality time in trying to play surrogate mother to the orphaned ellies there and observe the work that she and her trust have been doing with regards to elephant orphans being rescued, rehabilitated and made ready for release. Having said that, it certainly does not qualify me to be called an 'elephant welfare expert'. Dame Dr. Daphne Sheldrick has spent a lifetime in researching, understanding elephnts and is considered a 'Living legend, and an authority on elephants and rhinocerous. Therefore you see I am still a learner, and I believe so are you or despite having a few stints in wildlife we still DO NOT QUALIFY AS EXPERTS. This is the sole reason that we need as many genuine experts on this subject to come out all out against elephant polo. A healthy argument is always welcome, and I am game for it. That clears misconceptions and helps us understand a lot. Debating with the editor here is extremely important because 'Animal People' is a globally circulated newspaper. In the past too it carried write ups defending elephant polo lobby. Things can go horribly wrong if the Editor is not corrected as he somehow is made to feel that all is good about 'Elephant Polo'. Somebody has to do that, and I would be happy to keep shut if you volunteer to take on Mr. Merritt Clifton and help him understand the wrongs involved in elephant polo. Our work here is to generate awareness on this wrong thing. The fact that it is WRONG, has been PROVED last year itself: See the following page of expert comments: http://www.freewebs.com/elephantpolo/expertcomments.htm Yes, perhaps it may take another dozen of years before we find an end to this, but the process which was started last year, 35 years after it went unnoticed and unchallenged is showing good results. The experts are coming out in large numbers, more and more people are butting in, I am thankful to you too Pablo for taking interest on 'Elephant Polo' despite the hectic schedule of shuttling between nations and national parks. Cheers !! Azam On 11/24/07, Pablo <pablo.tachil wrote: > > Hi, > > I have been reading this chain of emails going around about a remark made > by our very own Mr. Meritt and Azam and Shubroto pitching in against the > same. > > Azam you claim yourself to be someone trained in elephant welfare under > Mrs. Sheldrick's supervision and Shubroto, I believe you are someone who has > a decent experience in animal welfare and a fair amount of knowledge on > animal psychology. Then why the hell are you both debating with an editor > who has just listed down news of elephant deaths in the order of their > frequency of occurance. > > I am sure that is what and is the only thing Meritt was pointing to in his > email. Of course even he has atleast heard from majority of the renowned > researchers and scientists that psychologically and most of the times > physically for the elephants..... the blood-sport called elephant polo is > not just a nightmare but a curse which if he were given an option to list > out another rating, could fall into the top spot of " HAS TO BE BANNED > SPORT/CIRCUS " . > > The fight for elephant polo still wages folks! I did see emails from all > corners of the globe with an urge to redesign our war against the > pro-elephantpolo lobby! > > Thanks, Pablo. > > > On 11/22/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl > wrote: > > > > >*<1. When was the survey for top 10 or top 100 etc etc threats to > > >animal & well-being carried out? Is anyone aware of any such survey, > > >or results? > > > > Just on the subject of elephants, & just in Asia, the top > > 10 sources of human-associated mortality in recent years appear to > > be-- > > > > 1) Ivory poaching. > > > > 2) Electrocutions by fencing. > > > > 3) Collisions with trains. > > > > 4) Collisions with motor vehicles. > > > > 5) Shooting to halt rampages. > > > > 6) Drought caused in part by human diversion of water sources. > > > > 7) Foot & leg injuries caused by excessive standing or > > walking on paved surfaces. > > > > 8) Being fed or otherwise consuming inappropriate objects > > at temples & zoos. > > > > 9) Accidentally ingesting agricultural pesticides. > > > > 10) Injuries suffered on the job in connection with logging, > > road-building, etc. > > > > This does not include habitat destruction, which is a causal > > factor in most of the above, or exposure to human diseases, such as > > tuberculosis, which also pass elephant-to-elephant, or any of the > > effects of warfare, many of which contribute to mortality. > > > > Neither does the above include forest fires and floods, also > > significant causes of elephant mortality and also largely the result > > of human activity. > > > > Depending on how one defines " human-associated, " the list > > could probably be expanded to 15 or 20 total categories, many of > > them involving hundreds of elephants. > > > > Elephant polo would not be among the top 10, 15, or 20, > > though, because elephant polo has not yet killed any elephants. > > Perhaps some elephants may eventually die from some cause associated > > with elephant polo, but after 30-odd years it is a bit surprising > > that it has not happened yet, if elephant polo is to be considered a > > serious threat to elephant well-being. > > > > -- > > Merritt Clifton > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > > P.O. Box 960 > > Clinton, WA 98236 > > > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > > Fax: 360-579-2575 > > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > > for free sample, send address.] > > > > > > > > -- > WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon -- United against elephant polo http://www.freewebs.com/elephantpolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Shubroto, I believe you are someone who has a decent experience in animal welfare and a fair amount of knowledge on animal psychology. Then why the hell are you both debating with an editor who has just listed down news of elephant deaths in the order of their frequency of occurance. (My experience includes training at Jersey Zoo and projects in UK and India. And whatever little experience I have dictates me to point out that elephant polo is wrong. The fact that elephants have not died playing the sport is no valid excuse to keep it going. Animals that survive long in captivity can have miserable lives. And a healthy debate is always welcome. I have no problems discussing issues with people having different opinions. As I said, the elephant polo issue is as much about corporate responsibility as it is about animal welfare, a fact that has consistently been ignored by the editor of Animal People. This is not a matter of elephants either being made to work or play polo since those who can arrange elephant polo matches can jolly well let the animals graze in open fields instead of keeping them chained all the time or making them run after a ball. It is only the profit factor that prevents them from trying out such a scheme. And the existence of elephant polo provides an incentive to exploit them in other entertainment shows like circuses and temple congregations for rituals. The editor of Animal People is defending the indefensible by sanitising this activity.) On 11/22/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >*<1. When was the survey for top 10 or top 100 etc etc threats to > >animal & well-being carried out? Is anyone aware of any such survey, > >or results? > > Just on the subject of elephants, & just in Asia, the top > 10 sources of human-associated mortality in recent years appear to > be-- > > 1) Ivory poaching. > > 2) Electrocutions by fencing. > > 3) Collisions with trains. > > 4) Collisions with motor vehicles. > > 5) Shooting to halt rampages. > > 6) Drought caused in part by human diversion of water sources. > > 7) Foot & leg injuries caused by excessive standing or > walking on paved surfaces. > > 8) Being fed or otherwise consuming inappropriate objects > at temples & zoos. > > 9) Accidentally ingesting agricultural pesticides. > > 10) Injuries suffered on the job in connection with logging, > road-building, etc. > > This does not include habitat destruction, which is a causal > factor in most of the above, or exposure to human diseases, such as > tuberculosis, which also pass elephant-to-elephant, or any of the > effects of warfare, many of which contribute to mortality. > > Neither does the above include forest fires and floods, also > significant causes of elephant mortality and also largely the result > of human activity. > > Depending on how one defines " human-associated, " the list > could probably be expanded to 15 or 20 total categories, many of > them involving hundreds of elephants. > > Elephant polo would not be among the top 10, 15, or 20, > though, because elephant polo has not yet killed any elephants. > Perhaps some elephants may eventually die from some cause associated > with elephant polo, but after 30-odd years it is a bit surprising > that it has not happened yet, if elephant polo is to be considered a > serious threat to elephant well-being. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Vultures definitly (unfortunately) seems to be struggling here but moving a few longitudes to my left, there seem to be others riding on different 'currents' and they definitly seem to be soaring higher by the day not able/ wanting/ willing to come down to see ground realities. Well my dear friend Meritt seems to miss so many points out here- * " The debate over elephant polo is not to be confused with the debate over whether or not elephants should be captured, because no elephant has ever been captured expressly for elephant polo, or even with elephant polo as a possible mentioned destination, and no elephant has ever been used in elephant polo who was not already a longtime captive working elephant. " * *Meritt, dont tell me you still dont get the point. Ok I will consider the fact that you are an editor and probably know nothing/ or dont care a fish about the psychological aspects of elephants ......but then take this simple logic my friend. If elephant polo is led to grow, there would be more matches around the world (easy comparison would be the game of cricket) meaning these elephants are going to be occupied for longer periods meaning now the work which these elephants used to do (rides, transportation, etc) is short of them and the demand increases meaning more elephants will be captured from the wild.* The rest of the paras all null out with this Sir! Apart from that I think Azam and Shubroto have briefly listed their experience with regards to elephants and as I had mentioned, as my seniors they are also supporting the same cause which from my 10 years of working quite closely with elephants know that 1) it is psychologically taxing for an elephant to take commands and do something he/she does not like to (evident from elephants going bersek during the games) and from a common man's stand point 2) with this game being allowed to grow, you are only creating more demand to the capture of more elephants. Thanks, Pablo On 11/24/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >I am sure that is what and is the only thing Meritt was pointing to > >in his email. Of course even he has atleast heard from majority of > >the renowned researchers and scientists that psychologically and > >most of the times physically for the elephants..... the blood-sport > >called elephant polo is not just a nightmare but a curse which if he > >were given an option to list out another rating, could fall into the > >top spot of " HAS TO BE BANNED SPORT/CIRCUS " . > > Actually, I have not heard a word to that effect from anyone > who has not already staked out a hard-and-fast position against the > idea that elephants who are already captive should be given anything > to do besides stand around. > > The debate over elephant polo is not to be confused with the > debate over whether or not elephants should be captured, because no > elephant has ever been captured expressly for elephant polo, or even > with elephant polo as a possible mentioned destination, and no > elephant has ever been used in elephant polo who was not already a > longtime captive working elephant. > > Neither is the debate over elephant polo to be confused with > such hypothetical alternatives as polo-playing or going to a > sanctuary: the sanctuaries to which they might go do not yet exist. > If some day they do, polo-playing or sanctuary might be an actual > set of choices. > > The sole here-and-now real issue involving elephant polo is > whether these few dozen elephants are going to be used to play polo > for 10 minutes at a stretch on grass once in a while, or continue to > spend all day every day either hauling tourists through traffic on > hot pavement, or waiting to haul tourists on hot pavement if any > tourists show up. > > Any other discussion about this is just so much more hot air > rising over hot parts of the world, possibly sufficient to raise a > vulture a few extra inches on the thermal current--if any vultures > survive in those regions. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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