Guest guest Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 >This is not a matter of elephants either being made to work or play >polo since those who can arrange elephant polo matches can jolly >well let the animals graze in open fields instead of keeping them >chained all the time or making them run after a ball. People who have actually seen elephant polo tend to take a different view. For example, this report by Judith Ritter, for the Toronto Globe & Mail in 2004-- >I watched teams from places such as Australia and Nepal ride >elephants that seemed to delight in chasing the ball down the field, >sometimes ignoring their riders and kicking the ball themselves with >their huge grey feet...In between matches, which commence with the >clang of a giant brass gong, the elephants lolled around on the >sidelines, tearing huge branches off trees in the encroaching >jungle. Now and then they wandered to the snack tables in search of >bananas, until called back by their Thai trainers. This is seriously different from the daily life and treatment of most working elephants. It is extremely unlikely that King Bhumibol Adulyadej of Thailand, a longtime animal advocate of distinguished concern over the years for elephants, birds, nonhuman primates, and street dogs, would lend his name and royal seal to the King's Cup if the elephants--the national symbols of Thailand--were in any way treated badly. Meanwhile, there is this allegation-- >the existence of elephant polo provides an incentive to exploit them >in other entertainment shows like circuses and temple congregations >for rituals. Circuses & the use of elephants to attract people to temples have been going for at least 3,000 years--in which regard, it is worth mentioning that the original source of temple elephants was retired working elephants, and this is still where many of them come from, with temples providing a variety of qualities of sanctuary care in absence of anyone else offering anything better for many of the captive elephants who can no longer work. A few provide good facilities; others are disasters. The documented history of elephant polo is only 25 years. The sum of all the elephants ever used in elephant polo is fewer than the circus or temple population of elephants on any given day. Elephant polo could disappear tomorrow, and have not the least effect on the endurance and success of circus and temple elephant keeping. Indeed, the likelihood that elephant polo will last another 25 years is substantially less than the likelihood that circuses and temples will each still have several hundred elephants each. If the goal is to eliminate cruelty to captive elephants, the logical places to begin would be with the daily lives of the many zoo elephants who still live in semi-isolation and close confinement, and the care and treatment of the average working elephant. Serious attention could also be given to improving the care and facilities given to temple elephants. These are in fact parts of the programs of at least three nonprofit elephant welfare organizations which receive funds from the King's Cup and other elephant polo tournaments. The King's Cup alone has produced about $175,000 in revenue for the Thai national elephant protection program. This is probably $175,000 which would not have been pulled out of rich toffs' pockets to help elephants in any other manner. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Meritt, these are the same elephants that one day was stationed at a PHAJAAN, where he was conitnuously beaten up until he " broke " . Do you understand the term " breaking an elephant " , do you under the psychological stress associated with this? I am sure the King is sympathetic to his animals. No doubt about it. Only thing is that no body has informed him of what goes behing the scenes, the true picture of the captive elephants. Only if he knew, I am confident he would want to stop this sport. Once he realised that this sport was getting popular around the world and there was more demand for all the currently working elephants which will only generate a greater demand, he would go out of his way to stop it. * " the original source of temple elephants was retired working elephants, and this is still where many of them come from, " * Very true Sir! Reminds me of what I did with my favourite pair of jeans as a kid. I held on to it, wore it when ever I could, but as I grew, I didnt want it anymore. Threw it away. Elephants cannot be treated as an old pair of jeans. * " Elephant polo could disappear tomorrow, and have not the least effect on the endurance and success of circus and temple elephant keeping. " * There is never a " success " to keeping captive elephants Sir! * " If the goal is to eliminate cruelty to captive elephants, the logical places to begin would be with the daily lives of the many zoo elephants who still live in semi-isolation and close confinement, and the care and treatment of the average working elephant. Serious attention could also be given to improving the care and facilities given to temple elephants. " * True I agree and I think you are also witness to the work a lot of us have been involved in this area. But to say elephant polo is not a place to start and more importantly an easy area that can be marked off is not acceptable. Meritt my point here is that circus and temple elephants, ok I will include logging too....for these elephants to be completely relieved is going to take time, like you said may be many years. But then why not nip a budding maddnes at its bud? At least one less avenue where there is scope for the use of elephants! Isnt that a simple logic which you are refusing to accept/ understand? Pablo. On 11/25/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >This is not a matter of elephants either being made to work or play > >polo since those who can arrange elephant polo matches can jolly > >well let the animals graze in open fields instead of keeping them > >chained all the time or making them run after a ball. > > People who have actually seen elephant polo tend to take a > different view. For example, this report by Judith Ritter, for the > Toronto Globe & Mail in 2004-- > > >I watched teams from places such as Australia and Nepal ride > >elephants that seemed to delight in chasing the ball down the field, > >sometimes ignoring their riders and kicking the ball themselves with > >their huge grey feet...In between matches, which commence with the > >clang of a giant brass gong, the elephants lolled around on the > >sidelines, tearing huge branches off trees in the encroaching > >jungle. Now and then they wandered to the snack tables in search of > >bananas, until called back by their Thai trainers. > > This is seriously different from the daily life and treatment > of most working elephants. It is extremely unlikely that King > Bhumibol Adulyadej of Thailand, a longtime animal advocate of > distinguished concern over the years for elephants, birds, nonhuman > primates, and street dogs, would lend his name and royal seal to > the King's Cup if the elephants--the national symbols of > Thailand--were in any way treated badly. > > Meanwhile, there is this allegation-- > > >the existence of elephant polo provides an incentive to exploit them > >in other entertainment shows like circuses and temple congregations > >for rituals. > > Circuses & the use of elephants to attract people to temples > have been going for at least 3,000 years--in which regard, it is > worth mentioning that the original source of temple elephants was > retired working elephants, and this is still where many of them come > from, with temples providing a variety of qualities of sanctuary > care in absence of anyone else offering anything better for many of > the captive elephants who can no longer work. A few provide good > facilities; others are disasters. > > The documented history of elephant polo is only 25 years. > The sum of all the elephants ever used in elephant polo is fewer than > the circus or temple population of elephants on any given day. > > Elephant polo could disappear tomorrow, and have not the > least effect on the endurance and success of circus and temple > elephant keeping. > > Indeed, the likelihood that elephant polo will last another > 25 years is substantially less than the likelihood that circuses and > temples will each still have several hundred elephants each. > > If the goal is to eliminate cruelty to captive elephants, > the logical places to begin would be with the daily lives of the many > zoo elephants who still live in semi-isolation and close confinement, > and the care and treatment of the average working elephant. > > Serious attention could also be given to improving the care > and facilities given to temple elephants. > > These are in fact parts of the programs of at least three > nonprofit elephant welfare organizations which receive funds from the > King's Cup and other elephant polo tournaments. The King's Cup alone > has produced about $175,000 in revenue for the Thai national elephant > protection program. This is probably $175,000 which would not have > been pulled out of rich toffs' pockets to help elephants in any other > manner. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 >Do you understand the term " breaking an elephant " , do you under the >psychological stress associated with this? This topic has not the slightest relevance to elephant polo. The elephant polo elephants were captured and " broken " many years before they were ever introduced to elephant polo, sometimes several decades earlier. If any elephants are ever captured to play elephant polo, perhaps this subject might be relevant--but right now & for the past several generations, elephants have been captured chiefly to reduce crop damage, and " broken " or sold to zoos chiefly because there is not much else that can be done with them short of killing them for meat and ivory. >I am sure the King is sympathetic to his animals. No doubt about it. >Only thing is that no body has informed him of what goes behing the >scenes The king has lived about 80 years in frequent close proximity to elephants, beginning long before elephant capture & training methods became controversial and somewhat concealed. I suspect the king knows a lot more about elephants, and every aspect of their capture, training, and care, than most & perhaps all of the people on this list. >If elephant polo is led to grow, there would be more >matches around the world (easy comparison would be the game of cricket) If elephant polo follows the trajectory of cricket, it will very soon be dead almost everywhere but in India. Cricket only half a century ago was still the second most played participant sport and second most popular spectator sport in the world. It has now virtually vanished as both, especially relative to other professional sports, e.g. baseball, basketball, soccer, & hockey. Outside of India, more people run marathons than play cricket, & probably more people watch paint dry. There are several basic requirements for a sport to develop a large following. One is that it must have a broad participant base, to create fan identification This is never going to happen with elephant polo. It simply cannot be played in enough places by enough people. Another basic requirement of a successful sport is that it must be played with frequency and continuity, to build dramatic tension over the outcomes of games and seasons. Elephant polo is played only a few times a year. Most popular sports have a star system, generate gambling interest, and can be watched often on TV at night. Elephant polo is nowhere close to accomplishing any of this. If elephant polo could be compared to any successful professional sporting event, it might be the America's Cup yacht race. Millionaires subsidized this event entirely from their own pockets and hardly anyone else paid any attention from 1851 until media magnate Ted Turner became involved nearly 120 years later. Yacht racing then boomed, relatively speaking, for about 25 years--which means it just barely got into the mainstream sports pages, and has now receded to the very last sports page when covered at all. And there are still a heck of a lot more yachters out there than people who will ever ride an elephant or watch polo (almost unknown in most of the world) in any form. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 > The elephant polo elephants were captured and " broken " many years > before they were ever introduced to elephant polo, sometimes several > decades earlier. Introduced several decades earlier, and yet the ellies can't get their voices heard by the 'ANIMAL PEOPLE' which claims to be the largest and perhaps the oldest circulated animal news mag. HELLO ALL YOU FUNDING AGENCIES FOR ANIMAL WELFARE ARE YOU RETIRED THAT YOU WANT ANIMALS TO BEG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 * " This topic has not the slightest relevance to elephant polo. The elephant polo elephants were captured and " broken " many years before they were ever introduced to elephant polo, sometimes several decades earlier. " * Meritt I wish there was another language in which I could explain this to you. Cant you get a simple point that if elephant polo had to becomes popular, the currently working elephants may get occupied in this and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would go through the phajaan. * " long before elephant capture & training methods became controversial and somewhat concealed. " * It got concealed because the methods were that brutal. Not sure if you have had a chance to see this but I have and therefore its evident why it had to be concealed. So here you are giving an opportunity for more elephants to go through this. * " The rest of your email " * The logic is simple. Curb a growing maddness...thats easier than curbing a well established maddness such as temple elephants or circuses. We are neways working on the temple elephants and circus elephants domain....i dont see why are you so reluctant to fight against this growing madness believing that you claim to be some1 who has some feelings for the jumbos. Pablo. On 11/25/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >Do you understand the term " breaking an elephant " , do you under the > >psychological stress associated with this? > > This topic has not the slightest relevance to elephant polo. > The elephant polo elephants were captured and " broken " many years > before they were ever introduced to elephant polo, sometimes several > decades earlier. > > If any elephants are ever captured to play elephant polo, > perhaps this subject might be relevant--but right now & for the past > several generations, elephants have been captured chiefly to reduce > crop damage, and " broken " or sold to zoos chiefly because there is > not much else that can be done with them short of killing them for > meat and ivory. > > >I am sure the King is sympathetic to his animals. No doubt about it. > >Only thing is that no body has informed him of what goes behing the > >scenes > > The king has lived about 80 years in frequent close proximity > to elephants, beginning long before elephant capture & training > methods became controversial and somewhat concealed. I suspect the > king knows a lot more about elephants, and every aspect of their > capture, training, and care, than most & perhaps all of the people > on this list. > > >If elephant polo is led to grow, there would be more > >matches around the world (easy comparison would be the game of cricket) > > If elephant polo follows the trajectory of cricket, it will > very soon be dead almost everywhere but in India. > > Cricket only half a century ago was still the second most > played participant sport and second most popular spectator sport in > the world. It has now virtually vanished as both, especially > relative to other professional sports, e.g. baseball, basketball, > soccer, & hockey. > > Outside of India, more people run marathons than play > cricket, & probably more people watch paint dry. > > There are several basic requirements for a sport to develop a > large following. One is that it must have a broad participant base, > to create fan identification This is never going to happen with > elephant polo. It simply cannot be played in enough places by enough > people. > > Another basic requirement of a successful sport is that it > must be played with frequency and continuity, to build dramatic > tension over the outcomes of games and seasons. Elephant polo is > played only a few times a year. > > Most popular sports have a star system, generate gambling > interest, and can be watched often on TV at night. Elephant polo is > nowhere close to accomplishing any of this. > > If elephant polo could be compared to any successful > professional sporting event, it might be the America's Cup yacht > race. Millionaires subsidized this event entirely from their own > pockets and hardly anyone else paid any attention from 1851 until > media magnate Ted Turner became involved nearly 120 years later. > Yacht racing then boomed, relatively speaking, for about 25 > years--which means it just barely got into the mainstream sports > pages, and has now receded to the very last sports page when covered > at all. > > And there are still a heck of a lot more yachters out there > than people who will ever ride an elephant or watch polo (almost > unknown in most of the world) in any form. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 >i dont see why are you so reluctant to fight against this growing >madness believing that you claim to be some1 who has some feelings >for the jumbos. I believe anyone who would begrudge an already long-captive elephant a day of light work on green grass, instead of another long day of plodding or standing on pavement, doesn't really give a damn about elephant well-being at all. Fighting elephant polo is not really a matter of fighting against elephant abuse, elephant capture, or anything with any realistic chance of growing or spreading much more than it already has. What fighting elephant polo is really about is a handful of frustrated and not very persuasive activists trying to hit a perceived soft, small, and easy symbolic target, instead of going after the real issues: the elephant capture and training process, the clandestine trade in " nuisance " elephants who are illegally removed from the wild and entered into commerce, the often poor treatment of temple and circus elephants, and the dreary lives of most urban working and begging elephants. All of these are problems that involve many hundreds of elephants, and that practically anyone can see, right in your own back yards -- unlike elephant polo, which is played in only four venues in the world, all of them rather expensive to visit. Elephant polo has only the most tangential connection with any of the real issues. It raises funds to help address the real issues. It puts Upper Class Twit of the Year candidates to marginally useful work for a change. Most observers -- as opposed to people who merely react to the concept -- come away believing the elephants rather enjoy it. And it is exactly the sort of trivial focus that serious elephant abusers in seriously elephant-abusing industries would want activists to be preoccupied with, if they were organized enough to have a defense strategy. If I was a working elephant, I'd trade the whole anti-elephant polo crusade for a sack of peanuts and consider it a steal. But I would be quite appreciative of some activists who would now and then picket an abusive temple, or make a public issue of restricting elephant tourist routes to dirt roads instead of asphalt, concrete, and cobblestones. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 > There are several basic requirements for a sport to develop a large following. One is that it must have a broad participant base, to create fan identification< One such requirement for a sport to develop a large following or die down is the media and press publicity. And the following link below from 'The Guardian Unlimited' a reputed media agency says it all. n the report titled " 50 sporting things you must do before you die " , it holds 'Elephant Polo' on the Top 20 spot. It may be noted that this news report is dated : April 4, 2004, that is when protests against elephant polo was unheard of and it was made to look more of of a charitable cause or fun without harm, and so you see with no protests from animal people, the media took it as OK. Link: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,1182710,00.html Please note in the above news report that this is what follows after elephant polo is promoted: *Four other sports with animals* 1. Play golf among kangaroos at the Anglesea course in Victoria, Australia. 2. Take part in an ostrich race, at the BC Ranch in Montana, USA. 3. Try the 150-metre camel sprints at the Pyramids of Giza, Egypt. 4. Go to watch the snail racing in Staffordshire. Snails compete in three disciplines: the 'Half-Yard Sprint', the 'Three-Yard Endurance' or the challenging 'One-Yard Steeplechase'. Fortunately it was not too late before the masses started realizing as to how wrong the elephant polo circus was for captive elephants after we had an army of expert opinions flowing in since last year. Thankfully the sensible international and local media agencies after proper investigations and cross checking the evidence submitted by the experts contacted them in person and then went all out in defense of the animals. Please check the positive media news reports links against elephant polo here: http://www.stopelephantpolo.com Azam On Nov 25, 2007 10:57 PM, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > >Do you understand the term " breaking an elephant " , do you under the > >psychological stress associated with this? > > > This topic has not the slightest relevance to elephant polo. > The elephant polo elephants were captured and " broken " many years > before they were ever introduced to elephant polo, sometimes several > decades earlier. > > If any elephants are ever captured to play elephant polo, > perhaps this subject might be relevant--but right now & for the past > several generations, elephants have been captured chiefly to reduce > crop damage, and " broken " or sold to zoos chiefly because there is > not much else that can be done with them short of killing them for > meat and ivory. > > >I am sure the King is sympathetic to his animals. No doubt about it. > >Only thing is that no body has informed him of what goes behing the > >scenes > > > The king has lived about 80 years in frequent close proximity > to elephants, beginning long before elephant capture & training > methods became controversial and somewhat concealed. I suspect the > king knows a lot more about elephants, and every aspect of their > capture, training, and care, than most & perhaps all of the people > on this list. > > >If elephant polo is led to grow, there would be more > >matches around the world (easy comparison would be the game of cricket) > > If elephant polo follows the trajectory of cricket, it will > very soon be dead almost everywhere but in India. > > Cricket only half a century ago was still the second most > played participant sport and second most popular spectator sport in > the world. It has now virtually vanished as both, especially > relative to other professional sports, e.g. baseball, basketball, > soccer, & hockey. > > Outside of India, more people run marathons than play > cricket, & probably more people watch paint dry. > > There are several basic requirements for a sport to develop a > large following. One is that it must have a broad participant base, > to create fan identification This is never going to happen with > elephant polo. It simply cannot be played in enough places by enough > people. > > Another basic requirement of a successful sport is that it > must be played with frequency and continuity, to build dramatic > tension over the outcomes of games and seasons. Elephant polo is > played only a few times a year. > > Most popular sports have a star system, generate gambling > interest, and can be watched often on TV at night. Elephant polo is > nowhere close to accomplishing any of this. > > If elephant polo could be compared to any successful > professional sporting event, it might be the America's Cup yacht > race. Millionaires subsidized this event entirely from their own > pockets and hardly anyone else paid any attention from 1851 until > media magnate Ted Turner became involved nearly 120 years later. > Yacht racing then boomed, relatively speaking, for about 25 > years--which means it just barely got into the mainstream sports > pages, and has now receded to the very last sports page when covered > at all. > > And there are still a heck of a lot more yachters out there > than people who will ever ride an elephant or watch polo (almost > unknown in most of the world) in any form. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > > -- United against elephant polo http://www.freewebs.com/elephantpolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 >This is the most important of all the points, in my opinion ! > and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would >go through the phajaan. This is simply not paying attention to reality. Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. No one can figure out any way to put enough to useful work to keep hundreds of mahouts from begging with their elephants in the streets, and to keep many alcohol-addicted ex-logging elephants from being abandoned in any convenient patch of woods, after being replaced by tractors. Temples mostly don't want more elephants, though they don't want to be without any elephants. There are not enough sanctuary spaces for even a fraction of all the elephants now in captivity, and there is precious little wild habitat left into which one might contemplate returning even a few elephants successfully. There is, accordingly, not the slightest likelihood of elephant polo ever becoming successful enough to require additional captures from the wild. This is like expecting India to run short of street dogs to the point of having to give them fertility drugs. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Meritt, my friend, I think you need to get your figures and facts right! Your reply has once again been one that is completely lacking of any sort of research or thought. * " Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. " * COMPLETELY FALSE! Meritt, let me disprove your sentence and your reply by citing just one small example. Let me take India as an example since your emails point to Her. Have you heard of what is known as the Sonepoor Mela that happens in the north-northeastern part of India? It is around this time that it happens. Infact it goes on as we talk. DO you even have a clue of how many elephants fresh out of the wild - broken are waiting to be sold or are already sold this year? These elephants are not being bought to be released into sanctury.....it is going into some form of captivity related activity. Give me sometime and I will confirm the exact numbers (in hundreds) once my sources give me the information. *If there was an abundance, this situation would not have come around*. Pablo On 11/26/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >This is the most important of all the points, in my opinion ! > > and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would > >go through the phajaan. > > This is simply not paying attention to reality. > > Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. > No one can figure out any way to put enough to useful work to keep > hundreds of mahouts from begging with their elephants in the streets, > and to keep many alcohol-addicted ex-logging elephants from being > abandoned in any convenient patch of woods, after being replaced by > tractors. > > Temples mostly don't want more elephants, though they don't > want to be without any elephants. > > There are not enough sanctuary spaces for even a fraction of > all the elephants now in captivity, and there is precious little > wild habitat left into which one might contemplate returning even a > few elephants successfully. > > There is, accordingly, not the slightest likelihood of > elephant polo ever becoming successful enough to require additional > captures from the wild. > > This is like expecting India to run short of street dogs to > the point of having to give them fertility drugs. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 * " What fighting elephant polo is really about is a handful of frustrated and not very persuasive activists trying to hit a perceived soft, small, and easy symbolic target, instead of going after the real issues: the elephant capture and training process, the clandestine trade in " nuisance " elephants who are illegally removed from the wild and entered into commerce, the often poor treatment of temple and circus elephants, and the dreary lives of most urban working and begging elephants. " * Meritt you can go ahead and call us frustrated and not very persuasive ignoring all the other work we are doing with regards to temple elephants and captivity related activities.............. but I atleast dont feel that we are of the types feeling happy that a country starving for money (some poor country) is now having money pumped in by rich tycoons and businessmen investing into flesh trade and then saying " it doesn hurt because the country is getting money to take care of these very people " . You are justifying that elephants humans captured against their will are now forced to do stupid activities on the pretext that they are going to benefit. I am not even going into what actually goes out for the elephants from all this. Give me a break Meritt! Your ideas may be popular with the masses. But we, the so called " frustrated and the less persuasive lot " will continue to fight all forms of captivity in elephants and elephant polo will definitly continue to remain in our hit list because we just dont sit and write editorials.... we see the plight the captive elephants go through and understand what it means by letting one more form of captivity related activity to grow and flourish! I think who would be frustrated is someone who knew he was going to get something out of all this and suddenly see that its in threat because there is someone now opposing to it happening. On 11/26/07, Pablo <pablo.tachil wrote: > > Meritt, my friend, I think you need to get your figures and facts right! > Your reply has once again been one that is completely lacking of any sort of > research or thought. > > * " Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. " * > COMPLETELY FALSE! > > Meritt, let me disprove your sentence and your reply by citing just one > small example. Let me take India as an example since your emails point to > Her. Have you heard of what is known as the Sonepoor Mela that happens in > the north-northeastern part of India? It is around this time that it > happens. Infact it goes on as we talk. DO you even have a clue of how many > elephants fresh out of the wild - broken are waiting to be sold or are > already sold this year? These elephants are not being bought to be released > into sanctury.....it is going into some form of captivity related activity. > Give me sometime and I will confirm the exact numbers (in hundreds) once my > sources give me the information. *If there was an abundance, this > situation would not have come around*. > > Pablo > On 11/26/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > > > >This is the most important of all the points, in my opinion ! > > > and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would > > >go through the phajaan. > > > > This is simply not paying attention to reality. > > > > Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. > > No one can figure out any way to put enough to useful work to keep > > hundreds of mahouts from begging with their elephants in the streets, > > and to keep many alcohol-addicted ex-logging elephants from being > > abandoned in any convenient patch of woods, after being replaced by > > tractors. > > > > Temples mostly don't want more elephants, though they don't > > want to be without any elephants. > > > > There are not enough sanctuary spaces for even a fraction of > > all the elephants now in captivity, and there is precious little > > wild habitat left into which one might contemplate returning even a > > few elephants successfully. > > > > There is, accordingly, not the slightest likelihood of > > elephant polo ever becoming successful enough to require additional > > captures from the wild. > > > > This is like expecting India to run short of street dogs to > > the point of having to give them fertility drugs. > > > > -- > > Merritt Clifton > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > > P.O. Box 960 > > Clinton, WA 98236 > > > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > > Fax: 360-579-2575 > > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > > for free sample, send address.] > > > > > > > > -- > WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 > I believe anyone who would begrudge an already long-captive elephant a day of light work on green grass, instead of another long day of plodding or standing on pavement, doesn't really give a damn about elephant well-being at all< At what cost ?? Would you do that in case of human beings?? Would amnesty international or any other human rights organisation allow slaves to be used as domestic servants or for any other purposes for ENTERTAINMENT of other human beings ??? THE FIGHT IS ON, AND SHALL ONLY GET STRONGER AND MORE STRONGER. We made a difference as a minority, as UNITED AGAINST ELEPHANT POLO WE SHALL ACHIEVE A CHANGE. On Nov 26, 2007 12:43 PM, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > >i dont see why are you so reluctant to fight against this growing > >madness believing that you claim to be some1 who has some feelings > >for the jumbos. > > I believe anyone who would begrudge an already long-captive > elephant a day of light work on green grass, instead of another long > day of plodding or standing on pavement, doesn't really give a damn > about elephant well-being at all. > > Fighting elephant polo is not really a matter of fighting > against elephant abuse, elephant capture, or anything with any > realistic chance of growing or spreading much more than it already > has. > > What fighting elephant polo is really about is a handful of > frustrated and not very persuasive activists trying to hit a > perceived soft, small, and easy symbolic target, instead of going > after the real issues: the elephant capture and training process, > the clandestine trade in " nuisance " elephants who are illegally > removed from the wild and entered into commerce, the often poor > treatment of temple and circus elephants, and the dreary lives of > most urban working and begging elephants. > > All of these are problems that involve many hundreds of > elephants, and that practically anyone can see, right in your own > back yards -- unlike elephant polo, which is played in only four > venues in the world, all of them rather expensive to visit. > > Elephant polo has only the most tangential connection with > any of the real issues. It raises funds to help address the real > issues. It puts Upper Class Twit of the Year candidates to > marginally useful work for a change. Most observers -- as opposed to > people who merely react to the concept -- come away believing the > elephants rather enjoy it. > > And it is exactly the sort of trivial focus that serious > elephant abusers in seriously elephant-abusing industries would want > activists to be preoccupied with, if they were organized enough to > have a defense strategy. > > If I was a working elephant, I'd trade the whole > anti-elephant polo crusade for a sack of peanuts and consider it a > steal. > > But I would be quite appreciative of some activists who would > now and then picket an abusive temple, or make a public issue of > restricting elephant tourist routes to dirt roads instead of asphalt, > concrete, and cobblestones. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > -- United against elephant polo http://www.freewebs.com/elephantpolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Well I guess I am not the only one annoyed by Merritt's bizarre logic, use of silly statistics and when all else fails, even personal insults when confronted with his pacifist attitude. Both in this case and in the case of the Shrimp report regarding rendered pets from California winding up in Asian seafood products being sold back to Americans, Merritt has sounded more like a government lobbyist then an animal activist. I mean come on, how can one be seriously be criticized for going after soft targets like Elephant Polo when you have a budget that is 1/1000 or less then any funded project in America concerned with, say, keeping lead out of pet toys. To sidetrack an issue by saying X should not be a target because Y is more beneficial as a whole is just wrong. Elephants who play polo are not happy elephants, regardless of their brethren at the temple or in the zoo. As someone who has seen the situation in Chitwan and sees working elephants on the streets of Kathmandu all the time, I would not recommend tackling the problems in Zoos over the problems of Polo elephants first and foremost, as this may wind up not helping any of these animals at all. Polo workers are not better off on grass with a bag of peanuts. They are all animals being held in captivity through no fault of their own, and that's just wrong. As Pablo mentions, since there is no place for them to go: the zoos are full and the temples are overcrowded, it makes (insane) sense that humans would devise another way to enslave them instead of preserving their natural habitat, which would be preventive instead of reactive care. Elephants live for a very long time and take up a lot of space, so underlying this debate on how to treat Polo, Zoo, or Temple elephants (whichever you prefer) is the fact that if allowed to reproduce, there is little space left for the elephant in the modern world to live a natural life. So what to do? Turn them into sporting goods? Through a lot of hard work activists have somewhat prevented them from winding up on coffee tables, hanging on Pub walls, and in necklaces and rings worn by the the rich and famous - but now where are we going to put them all - if not poaching them? The national reserve of Nepal has turned into a war zone where no one is looking out for anything but themselves, yet the Polo games still go on. The industrialization of Thailand and India runs unchecked from an Elephant's point of view. Mad bulls that run amuck are shot dead for their tenacity and frustration over the stupidity of human beings. Yet activists in countries like America, who raise billions per year for their own self-inflicted pet crisis, criticize others for speaking out on pet " rendering " and inevitable human consumption, or when trying to stop Elephants from being made to play silly games for the amusement of others. Have we all gone mad? aapn , Pablo <pablo.tachil wrote: > > * " What fighting elephant polo is really about is a handful of > frustrated and not very persuasive activists trying to hit a > perceived soft, small, and easy symbolic target, instead of going > after the real issues: the elephant capture and training process, > the clandestine trade in " nuisance " elephants who are illegally > removed from the wild and entered into commerce, the often poor > treatment of temple and circus elephants, and the dreary lives of > most urban working and begging elephants. " * > > Meritt you can go ahead and call us frustrated and not very persuasive > ignoring all the other work we are doing with regards to temple elephants > and captivity related activities.............. but I atleast dont feel that > we are of the types feeling happy that a country starving for money (some > poor country) is now having money pumped in by rich tycoons and businessmen > investing into flesh trade and then saying " it doesn hurt because the > country is getting money to take care of these very people " . You are > justifying that elephants humans captured against their will are now forced > to do stupid activities on the pretext that they are going to benefit. I am > not even going into what actually goes out for the elephants from all this. > > Give me a break Meritt! Your ideas may be popular with the masses. But we, > the so called " frustrated and the less persuasive lot " will continue to > fight all forms of captivity in elephants and elephant polo will definitly > continue to remain in our hit list because we just dont sit and write > editorials.... we see the plight the captive elephants go through and > understand what it means by letting one more form of captivity related > activity to grow and flourish! > > I think who would be frustrated is someone who knew he was going to get > something out of all this and suddenly see that its in threat because there > is someone now opposing to it happening. > > > On 11/26/07, Pablo <pablo.tachil wrote: > > > > Meritt, my friend, I think you need to get your figures and facts right! > > Your reply has once again been one that is completely lacking of any sort of > > research or thought. > > > > * " Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. " * > > COMPLETELY FALSE! > > > > Meritt, let me disprove your sentence and your reply by citing just one > > small example. Let me take India as an example since your emails point to > > Her. Have you heard of what is known as the Sonepoor Mela that happens in > > the north-northeastern part of India? It is around this time that it > > happens. Infact it goes on as we talk. DO you even have a clue of how many > > elephants fresh out of the wild - broken are waiting to be sold or are > > already sold this year? These elephants are not being bought to be released > > into sanctury.....it is going into some form of captivity related activity. > > Give me sometime and I will confirm the exact numbers (in hundreds) once my > > sources give me the information. *If there was an abundance, this > > situation would not have come around*. > > > > Pablo > > On 11/26/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > > > > > >This is the most important of all the points, in my opinion ! > > > > and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would > > > >go through the phajaan. > > > > > > This is simply not paying attention to reality. > > > > > > Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. > > > No one can figure out any way to put enough to useful work to keep > > > hundreds of mahouts from begging with their elephants in the streets, > > > and to keep many alcohol-addicted ex-logging elephants from being > > > abandoned in any convenient patch of woods, after being replaced by > > > tractors. > > > > > > Temples mostly don't want more elephants, though they don't > > > want to be without any elephants. > > > > > > There are not enough sanctuary spaces for even a fraction of > > > all the elephants now in captivity, and there is precious little > > > wild habitat left into which one might contemplate returning even a > > > few elephants successfully. > > > > > > There is, accordingly, not the slightest likelihood of > > > elephant polo ever becoming successful enough to require additional > > > captures from the wild. > > > > > > This is like expecting India to run short of street dogs to > > > the point of having to give them fertility drugs. > > > > > > -- > > > Merritt Clifton > > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > > > P.O. Box 960 > > > Clinton, WA 98236 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Dear Jigme, I understand your emotions against Meritt! May be resorting to abuse and flinging insults at people on a public forum is just a reflection of the way he has been brought up. But the reason I dont care too much about that is because here the focus of discussion is about the elephants (and other animals at other times). You have very rightly pointed out the various issues with regards to elephants and the scenario about the pets. Jigme this is exactly the point I have been trying to put across to him. How can you afford to let one form of captivity grow claiming that it helps the elephants...... when it is so easy to curb a budding menace. That way we have one less topic to waste time on and again return full focus on temple and circus elephants or elephants that need to be saved from poaching. Thanks, Pablo. On 11/26/07, Jigme Gaton <herojig wrote: > > Well I guess I am not the only one annoyed by Merritt's bizarre logic, > use of silly statistics and when all else fails, even personal insults when > confronted with his pacifist attitude. Both in this case and in the case of > the Shrimp report regarding rendered pets from California winding up in > Asian seafood products being sold back to Americans, Merritt has sounded > more like a government lobbyist then an animal activist. I mean come on, how > can one be seriously be criticized for going after soft targets like > Elephant Polo when you have a budget that is 1/1000 or less then any funded > project in America concerned with, say, keeping lead out of pet toys. To > sidetrack an issue by saying X should not be a target because Y is more > beneficial as a whole is just wrong. Elephants who play polo are not happy > elephants, regardless of their brethren at the temple or in the zoo. As > someone who has seen the situation in Chitwan and sees working elephants on > the streets of Kathmandu all the time, I would not recommend tackling the > problems in Zoos over the problems of Polo elephants first and foremost, as > this may wind up not helping any of these animals at all. Polo workers are > not better off on grass with a bag of peanuts. They are all animals being > held in captivity through no fault of their own, and that's just wrong. As > Pablo mentions, since there is no place for them to go: the zoos are full > and the temples are overcrowded, it makes (insane) sense that humans would > devise another way to enslave them instead of preserving their natural > habitat, which would be preventive instead of reactive care. Elephants live > for a very long time and take up a lot of space, so underlying this debate > on how to treat Polo, Zoo, or Temple elephants (whichever you prefer) is the > fact that if allowed to reproduce, there is little space left for the > elephant in the modern world to live a natural life. So what to do? Turn > them into sporting goods? Through a lot of hard work activists have somewhat > prevented them from winding up on coffee tables, hanging on Pub walls, and > in necklaces and rings worn by the the rich and famous - but now where are > we going to put them all - if not poaching them? The national reserve of > Nepal has turned into a war zone where no one is looking out for anything > but themselves, yet the Polo games still go on. The industrialization of > Thailand and India runs unchecked from an Elephant's point of view. Mad > bulls that run amuck are shot dead for their tenacity and frustration over > the stupidity of human beings. Yet activists in countries like America, who > raise billions per year for their own self-inflicted pet crisis, criticize > others for speaking out on pet " rendering " and inevitable human consumption, > or when trying to stop Elephants from being made to play silly games for the > amusement of others. Have we all gone mad? > > aapn <aapn%40>, Pablo <pablo.tachil > wrote: > > > > * " What fighting elephant polo is really about is a handful of > > frustrated and not very persuasive activists trying to hit a > > perceived soft, small, and easy symbolic target, instead of going > > after the real issues: the elephant capture and training process, > > the clandestine trade in " nuisance " elephants who are illegally > > removed from the wild and entered into commerce, the often poor > > treatment of temple and circus elephants, and the dreary lives of > > most urban working and begging elephants. " * > > > > Meritt you can go ahead and call us frustrated and not very persuasive > > ignoring all the other work we are doing with regards to temple > elephants > > and captivity related activities.............. but I atleast dont feel > that > > we are of the types feeling happy that a country starving for money > (some > > poor country) is now having money pumped in by rich tycoons and > businessmen > > investing into flesh trade and then saying " it doesn hurt because the > > country is getting money to take care of these very people " . You are > > justifying that elephants humans captured against their will are now > forced > > to do stupid activities on the pretext that they are going to benefit. I > am > > not even going into what actually goes out for the elephants from all > this. > > > > Give me a break Meritt! Your ideas may be popular with the masses. But > we, > > the so called " frustrated and the less persuasive lot " will continue to > > fight all forms of captivity in elephants and elephant polo will > definitly > > continue to remain in our hit list because we just dont sit and write > > editorials.... we see the plight the captive elephants go through and > > understand what it means by letting one more form of captivity related > > activity to grow and flourish! > > > > I think who would be frustrated is someone who knew he was going to get > > something out of all this and suddenly see that its in threat because > there > > is someone now opposing to it happening. > > > > > > On 11/26/07, Pablo <pablo.tachil wrote: > > > > > > Meritt, my friend, I think you need to get your figures and facts > right! > > > Your reply has once again been one that is completely lacking of any > sort of > > > research or thought. > > > > > > * " Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. " * > > > COMPLETELY FALSE! > > > > > > Meritt, let me disprove your sentence and your reply by citing just > one > > > small example. Let me take India as an example since your emails point > to > > > Her. Have you heard of what is known as the Sonepoor Mela that happens > in > > > the north-northeastern part of India? It is around this time that it > > > happens. Infact it goes on as we talk. DO you even have a clue of how > many > > > elephants fresh out of the wild - broken are waiting to be sold or are > > > already sold this year? These elephants are not being bought to be > released > > > into sanctury.....it is going into some form of captivity related > activity. > > > Give me sometime and I will confirm the exact numbers (in hundreds) > once my > > > sources give me the information. *If there was an abundance, this > > > situation would not have come around*. > > > > > > Pablo > > > On 11/26/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > > > > > > > >This is the most important of all the points, in my opinion ! > > > > > and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would > > > > >go through the phajaan. > > > > > > > > This is simply not paying attention to reality. > > > > > > > > Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. > > > > No one can figure out any way to put enough to useful work to keep > > > > hundreds of mahouts from begging with their elephants in the > streets, > > > > and to keep many alcohol-addicted ex-logging elephants from being > > > > abandoned in any convenient patch of woods, after being replaced by > > > > tractors. > > > > > > > > Temples mostly don't want more elephants, though they don't > > > > want to be without any elephants. > > > > > > > > There are not enough sanctuary spaces for even a fraction of > > > > all the elephants now in captivity, and there is precious little > > > > wild habitat left into which one might contemplate returning even a > > > > few elephants successfully. > > > > > > > > There is, accordingly, not the slightest likelihood of > > > > elephant polo ever becoming successful enough to require additional > > > > captures from the wild. > > > > > > > > This is like expecting India to run short of street dogs to > > > > the point of having to give them fertility drugs. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Merritt Clifton > > > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > > > > P.O. Box 960 > > > > Clinton, WA 98236 > > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Hello all, I am afraid that I need to agree with Merrit on the elephant polo issue on some points and I feel that the accusation on his address that he does not think nor has any research to back his story up is insulting. First of all it has never been proven that any elephant is taken out of the forest (for the sole purpose) of being trained for elephant polo. Most elephants are taken out for other (more) profitable things like street begging and for the use in elephant camps to entertain tourists (f.e. Thai elephant camps and Indian trekking through national parks). To claim that elephants are poached and their spirits broken for the (sole) use in elephant polo is just not true. I actually feel that instead (or besides) fighting elephant polo we should focus more on the begging elephants, walking day after day in the burning full sun on hot roads through fast traffic or the walks with tourists hour after hour on a day seems to me a much bigger issue of animal welfare. Merrit is also right to state that the captive elephants are in a state of overabundance, too many are being kept in captivity without a serving proper financial purpose but strangely also too many are still added from the wild. The value of elephants is still rising even though it gets harder to make money out of them by the owners, a direct result from lack of enforcement of the wildlife protection laws in almost all range countries. Main reason is for this that baby elephants are always a nice addition to a collection of elephants at a (tourist) camp or as begging elephant, who does not feel sorry for them? Bottom-line is that we should start with fighting the worst abuse first and that this is definitely not the elephant polo. I would like to see all these people that worry so much about the elephant's wellbeing would do something constructive there. What is the alternative for the elephants that are used in polo? Are these elephants playing polo every week or only once or twice a year? Where these elephants wild caught or not? How do we stop the poaching of elephants from the wild? Should any person have the right to own an elephant at all? Re the Thai Kings concern about animals. He is not at all involved with the elephant polo in Thailand. It is called the " King's cup " ; just like some hotels are called Royal this-or-that. it doesn't mean they are associated with the royal family at all. Edwin Wiek WFFT founder and director Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand www.wfft.org <http://www.wfft.org/> _____ aapn [aapn ] On Behalf Of Pablo Monday, 26 November, 2007 18:59 Merritt Clifton Cc: aapn Re: The King's Cup * " What fighting elephant polo is really about is a handful of frustrated and not very persuasive activists trying to hit a perceived soft, small, and easy symbolic target, instead of going after the real issues: the elephant capture and training process, the clandestine trade in " nuisance " elephants who are illegally removed from the wild and entered into commerce, the often poor treatment of temple and circus elephants, and the dreary lives of most urban working and begging elephants. " * Meritt you can go ahead and call us frustrated and not very persuasive ignoring all the other work we are doing with regards to temple elephants and captivity related activities.............. but I atleast dont feel that we are of the types feeling happy that a country starving for money (some poor country) is now having money pumped in by rich tycoons and businessmen investing into flesh trade and then saying " it doesn hurt because the country is getting money to take care of these very people " . You are justifying that elephants humans captured against their will are now forced to do stupid activities on the pretext that they are going to benefit. I am not even going into what actually goes out for the elephants from all this. Give me a break Meritt! Your ideas may be popular with the masses. But we, the so called " frustrated and the less persuasive lot " will continue to fight all forms of captivity in elephants and elephant polo will definitly continue to remain in our hit list because we just dont sit and write editorials.... we see the plight the captive elephants go through and understand what it means by letting one more form of captivity related activity to grow and flourish! I think who would be frustrated is someone who knew he was going to get something out of all this and suddenly see that its in threat because there is someone now opposing to it happening. On 11/26/07, Pablo <pablo.tachil@ <pablo.tachil%40gmail.com> gmail.com> wrote: > > Meritt, my friend, I think you need to get your figures and facts right! > Your reply has once again been one that is completely lacking of any sort of > research or thought. > > * " Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. " * > COMPLETELY FALSE! > > Meritt, let me disprove your sentence and your reply by citing just one > small example. Let me take India as an example since your emails point to > Her. Have you heard of what is known as the Sonepoor Mela that happens in > the north-northeastern part of India? It is around this time that it > happens. Infact it goes on as we talk. DO you even have a clue of how many > elephants fresh out of the wild - broken are waiting to be sold or are > already sold this year? These elephants are not being bought to be released > into sanctury.....it is going into some form of captivity related activity. > Give me sometime and I will confirm the exact numbers (in hundreds) once my > sources give me the information. *If there was an abundance, this > situation would not have come around*. > > Pablo > On 11/26/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl (AT) whidbey (DOT) <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> com> wrote: > > > > >This is the most important of all the points, in my opinion ! > > > and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would > > >go through the phajaan. > > > > This is simply not paying attention to reality. > > > > Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. > > No one can figure out any way to put enough to useful work to keep > > hundreds of mahouts from begging with their elephants in the streets, > > and to keep many alcohol-addicted ex-logging elephants from being > > abandoned in any convenient patch of woods, after being replaced by > > tractors. > > > > Temples mostly don't want more elephants, though they don't > > want to be without any elephants. > > > > There are not enough sanctuary spaces for even a fraction of > > all the elephants now in captivity, and there is precious little > > wild habitat left into which one might contemplate returning even a > > few elephants successfully. > > > > There is, accordingly, not the slightest likelihood of > > elephant polo ever becoming successful enough to require additional > > captures from the wild. > > > > This is like expecting India to run short of street dogs to > > the point of having to give them fertility drugs. > > > > -- > > Merritt Clifton > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > > P.O. Box 960 > > Clinton, WA 98236 > > > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > > Fax: 360-579-2575 > > E-mail: anmlpepl (AT) whidbey (DOT) <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> com <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > > for free sample, send address.] > > > > > > > > -- > WOCON: http://groups. <http://groups.google.co.inwocon> google.co.inwocon > -- WOCON: http://groups. <http://groups.google.co.inwocon> google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Dear Edwin, This is something that Meritt said " *This is seriously different from the daily life and treatment of most working elephants. It is extremely unlikely that King Bhumibol Adulyadej of Thailand, a longtime animal advocate of distinguished concern over the years for elephants, birds, nonhuman primates, and street dogs, would lend his name and royal seal to the King's Cup if the elephants--the national symbols of Thailand--were in any way treated badly. " * But according to you its just a name that the tournament has. I didnt judge his research here. And I didnt get a response to the fact that if elephants are in such abundance, why do we still have Sonepur melas happening in the country? Why are still elephants being captured in the country and bought mostly by the same people when they already have elephants in abundance. By debating if elephant polo needs to be banned or not in no ways implied that our focus has shifted from the temple or begging or circus elephants. But to say that work with blinkers on ONLY in that field is something we cannot agree upon. NO ONE SAID you need to shift focus from temple/ begging elephants. All we said is why give chance for another concern to develop! Thanks, Pablo. On 11/27/07, Edwin Wiek <edwin.wiek wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > I am afraid that I need to agree with Merrit on the elephant polo issue on > some points and I feel that the accusation on his address that he does not > think nor has any research to back his story up is insulting. > > > > First of all it has never been proven that any elephant is taken out of > the forest (for the sole purpose) of being trained for elephant polo. Most > elephants are taken out for other (more) profitable things like street > begging and for the use in elephant camps to entertain tourists (f.e. Thai > elephant camps and Indian trekking through national parks). To claim that > elephants are poached and their spirits broken for the (sole) use in > elephant polo is just not true. > > > > I actually feel that instead (or besides) fighting elephant polo we should > focus more on the begging elephants, walking day after day in the burning > full sun on hot roads through fast traffic or the walks with tourists hour > after hour on a day seems to me a much bigger issue of animal welfare. > Merrit is also right to state that the captive elephants are in a state of > overabundance, too many are being kept in captivity without a serving proper > financial purpose but strangely also too many are still added from the wild. > The value of elephants is still rising even though it gets harder to make > money out of them by the owners, a direct result from lack of enforcement of > the wildlife protection laws in almost all range countries. Main reason is > for this that baby elephants are always a nice addition to a collection of > elephants at a (tourist) camp or as begging elephant, who does not feel > sorry for them? > > > > Bottom-line is that we should start with fighting the worst abuse first > and that this is definitely not the elephant polo. I would like to see all > these people that worry so much about the elephant's wellbeing would do > something constructive there. What is the alternative for the elephants that > are used in polo? Are these elephants playing polo every week or only once > or twice a year? Where these elephants wild caught or not? How do we stop > the poaching of elephants from the wild? Should any person have the right to > own an elephant at all? > > > > Re the Thai Kings concern about animals. He is not at all involved with > the elephant polo in Thailand. It is called the " King's cup " ; just like some > hotels are called Royal this-or-that… it doesn't mean they are associated > with the royal family at all. > > > > > > Edwin Wiek > > WFFT founder and director > > Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand > > www.wfft.org ------------------------------ > > ** aapn [aapn ] *On Behalf Of * > Pablo > *Sent:* Monday, 26 November, 2007 18:59 > *To:* Merritt Clifton > *Cc:* aapn > *Subject:* Re: The King's Cup > > > > * " What fighting elephant polo is really about is a handful of > frustrated and not very persuasive activists trying to hit a > perceived soft, small, and easy symbolic target, instead of going > after the real issues: the elephant capture and training process, > the clandestine trade in " nuisance " elephants who are illegally > removed from the wild and entered into commerce, the often poor > treatment of temple and circus elephants, and the dreary lives of > most urban working and begging elephants. " * > > Meritt you can go ahead and call us frustrated and not very persuasive > ignoring all the other work we are doing with regards to temple elephants > and captivity related activities.............. but I atleast dont feel > that > we are of the types feeling happy that a country starving for money (some > poor country) is now having money pumped in by rich tycoons and > businessmen > investing into flesh trade and then saying " it doesn hurt because the > country is getting money to take care of these very people " . You are > justifying that elephants humans captured against their will are now > forced > to do stupid activities on the pretext that they are going to benefit. I > am > not even going into what actually goes out for the elephants from all > this. > > Give me a break Meritt! Your ideas may be popular with the masses. But we, > the so called " frustrated and the less persuasive lot " will continue to > fight all forms of captivity in elephants and elephant polo will definitly > continue to remain in our hit list because we just dont sit and write > editorials.... we see the plight the captive elephants go through and > understand what it means by letting one more form of captivity related > activity to grow and flourish! > > I think who would be frustrated is someone who knew he was going to get > something out of all this and suddenly see that its in threat because > there > is someone now opposing to it happening. > > On 11/26/07, Pablo <pablo.tachil <pablo.tachil%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > Meritt, my friend, I think you need to get your figures and facts right! > > Your reply has once again been one that is completely lacking of any > sort of > > research or thought. > > > > * " Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. " * > > COMPLETELY FALSE! > > > > Meritt, let me disprove your sentence and your reply by citing just one > > small example. Let me take India as an example since your emails point > to > > Her. Have you heard of what is known as the Sonepoor Mela that happens > in > > the north-northeastern part of India? It is around this time that it > > happens. Infact it goes on as we talk. DO you even have a clue of how > many > > elephants fresh out of the wild - broken are waiting to be sold or are > > already sold this year? These elephants are not being bought to be > released > > into sanctury.....it is going into some form of captivity related > activity. > > Give me sometime and I will confirm the exact numbers (in hundreds) once > my > > sources give me the information. *If there was an abundance, this > > situation would not have come around*. > > > > Pablo > > On 11/26/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl<anmlpepl%40whidbey.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > >This is the most important of all the points, in my opinion ! > > > > and more elephants will be captured as replacements and they would > > > >go through the phajaan. > > > > > > This is simply not paying attention to reality. > > > > > > Reality is that captive elephants are in huge overabundance. > > > No one can figure out any way to put enough to useful work to keep > > > hundreds of mahouts from begging with their elephants in the streets, > > > and to keep many alcohol-addicted ex-logging elephants from being > > > abandoned in any convenient patch of woods, after being replaced by > > > tractors. > > > > > > Temples mostly don't want more elephants, though they don't > > > want to be without any elephants. > > > > > > There are not enough sanctuary spaces for even a fraction of > > > all the elephants now in captivity, and there is precious little > > > wild habitat left into which one might contemplate returning even a > > > few elephants successfully. > > > > > > There is, accordingly, not the slightest likelihood of > > > elephant polo ever becoming successful enough to require additional > > > captures from the wild. > > > > > > This is like expecting India to run short of street dogs to > > > the point of having to give them fertility drugs. > > > > > > -- > > > Merritt Clifton > > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > > > P.O. Box 960 > > > Clinton, WA 98236 > > > > > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > > > Fax: 360-579-2575 > > > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com><anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > > > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > > > > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > > > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > > > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > > > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > > > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > > > for free sample, send address.] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon > > > > -- > WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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