Guest guest Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 'SHOULD' is not that serious an offence as members cracking JOKES on serious animal rights issues at times that are up for debate/ discussions on AAPN which MUST be dealt with strictly. We SHOULD understand that our members come from various cross sections of the society. From activists to editors, from the common man to the scientists. Each & every member's opinion is equally important & should be respected if it is in the interest of animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 Gosh if we start editing out words from our vocabulary based on an assumption that some may be tyrannical we are going to be in a world of hurt, but please replace every " should " I have uttered with " can " and that may be more politically correct and accurate. >Let us keep aapn for hard news / hard information / practical comment & >suggestions on ways to reduce the suffering of animals. Let's not and say we won't, as debate amongst workers in the field is one way to make sure things get done in a way that makes sense. But I do see the point, no point in preaching here, although it is interesting to read different opinions on different approaches, no matter how expressed... But if you all haven't noticed, there is a wide range and variation of approaches to animal welfare activism, just as there is amongst political activists, and a cross-over of philosophies, approaches, and actions is also evident. Instead of ignoring this phenomenon, I think it should all be out in the open and discussed. That debate and consensus (or not) will ultimately help animals. Humans have to blather and bleep, just as any other animal does in the wild... There is an interesting debate going on right now about zoos, pros and cons, and the story of the tiger incident in San Francisco trails only behind the tragedy in Pakistan (or perhaps the story of the demise of the last Hindu Kingdom on earth). I suppose there may always be two sides to this debate: to zoo or not to zoo, even amongst activists and others striving to help animals. But removing the word " should " is not going to help find the best solution. I think we should (read " can " ) close all zoos and captive breeding programs outside natural habitats and also repurpose all zoo funds to expand and preserve such natural habitats, and also return all animals to those natural habitats safely (not the bogus or underfunded ones cited so concisely by Merrit a post or two back). In the case of the Siberian Tiger, working with the governments of China, Russia, and Korea to make this happen does not seem like an impossible task. But call me crazy, no matter, my gut tells me it's the right thing to promote and to work towards. What if programs like the SSP developed by the AZA is not the right thing to do after all? Should we all just nod our heads and accept that some species only hope for survival is encapsulated in a plan that treats them as ornaments and as capital for the hundreds of AZA commercial members? Should we not debate and investigate? Don't we owe it the wildlife that has made our life on earth even possible to dig down to the roots of these problems to discover solutions instead of spraying the leaves for disease decades later? Or to be specific, should we not urge for a full investigation of our own reasoning behind our support for zoos? Merrit made a valid point: they help the animals there in the " here and now. " They may be better off under the AZA then in so-called " habitats " in America. The financial stability of valid habitats such as the Wild Animal Sanctuary outside Denver Colorado will always be jittery. Yet the way in which these issues are being dealt with is akin to spraying the leaves on a sick tree. What is at the root? (Use " habitats " as an example) Lack of legislation on the ownership of wildlife as pets, and the enforcement of current laws. Expulsions from over-crowded zoos. What is the root of that? Wild life taken from their natural habitat. What is the root of that? There is none left, or it's dwindling, or not safe for natural inhabitants, or even reasons more nefarious. What is the root of that? Unmanaged resources, lack of human controls, corruption, now even a changing climate. What is the root of that? Hmmmm....it all comes back to an awfully ugly and formidable root yes? But it's the one root that will either bring the planet back to life or kill it completely. So perhaps that's where the injections are needed. Who's up for that? Jigs, AN > AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 > Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:43:31 -0400 > John Edmundson <balathai > Cc: <aapn > > Re: " the tyranny of the shoulds " > > 'SHOULD' is not that serious an offence as members cracking JOKES on > serious animal rights issues at times that are up for debate/ > discussions on AAPN which MUST be dealt with strictly. > > We SHOULD understand that our members come from various cross sections > of the society. > From activists to editors, from the common man to the scientists. > > Each & every member's opinion is equally important & should be > respected if it is in the interest of animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 >'SHOULD' is not that serious an offence as members cracking JOKES on >serious animal rights issues at times that are up for debate/ >discussions on AAPN which MUST be dealt with strictly. Any idea that can't withstand the test of humor isn't worth having. (By way of pointing out that anyone who wishes to have a good laugh at me is quite welcome to, especially if I get to share it, let me note that I wrote a sports column for 10 years as Jackass Clifton; frequently point out my physical resemblance to a jackass in my presentations on fundraising, in the context of noting how advocates for various animals tend to mimic the behavior of the animals they defend, which tends to be self-defeating when advocating for feral cats; and for about 10 years produced a self-parody called Anal People every April 1. My theory is that anyone who wants to ruin my good reputation can go right ahead, if it can be located, or can even be established that I ever had one.) -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2007 Report Share Posted December 29, 2007 I propose Merritt to be the new Moderator of this group! I believe that Merritt will be fair / unbiased. Most of Azam's posts are very helpful / very informative - however I would like to reply to Azam's small % of very crazy posts. My full & frank response to Azam's last bout of temporary madness was " censored " by our current Moderator AKA " Dad " ! Posts by known criminals get past him! Posts from " Kill some - love some " groups in which he has a position get past him! It is time for a change at the top! Are there any other nominations? / volunteers for our next Moderator? aapn , Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >'SHOULD' is not that serious an offence as members cracking JOKES on > >serious animal rights issues at times that are up for debate/ > >discussions on AAPN which MUST be dealt with strictly. > > > Any idea that can't withstand the test of humor isn't worth having. > > > (By way of pointing out that anyone who wishes to have a good > laugh at me is quite welcome to, especially if I get to share it, > let me note that I wrote a sports column for 10 years as Jackass > Clifton; frequently point out my physical resemblance to a jackass > in my presentations on fundraising, in the context of noting how > advocates for various animals tend to mimic the behavior of the > animals they defend, which tends to be self-defeating when > advocating for feral cats; and for about 10 years produced a > self-parody called Anal People every April 1. My theory is that > anyone who wants to ruin my good reputation can go right ahead, if > it can be located, or can even be established that I ever had one.) > > > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2007 Report Share Posted December 29, 2007 On 12/28/07, John Edmundson <balathai wrote: > I propose Merritt to be the new Moderator of this group! > > I believe that Merritt will be fair / unbiased. > Well John you certainly have the freedom to open a fresh and plant Merritt as the moderator. Your blind love for Merritt and the respect towards him for the warehouse of vocabulary and statistics that he is not enough to qualify as the moderator of AAPN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2007 Report Share Posted December 29, 2007 > Any idea that can't withstand the test of humor isn't worth having. Why Sir? If some of us are striving hard to get serious issues as 'Elephant polo' etc, why JOKE or add HUMOUR and make fun of it. You are a senior animal person and moreover an Editor, does this attitude suit you? >anyone who wishes to have a good > laugh at me is quite welcome We joined AAPN not to laugh at fellow members, it must be avoided as far as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2007 Report Share Posted December 29, 2007 >I propose Merritt to be the new Moderator of this group! >I believe that Merritt will be fair / unbiased. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have a more than fulltime job already, & have no interest in taking over John Wedderburn's project of the past many years. I will point out, though, that the humane cause has always grown by division, much like the reproduction of cells, & that inevitably as organizations and projects expand, portions break off to take their own direction. attracting their own supporters and participants. Sooner or later, some AAPN participants will start their own lists to pursue other focuses, e.g. on particular nations or topics, or to introduce other modes of operation that they believe will be more successful. This will tend to bring more people into discussions of the issues, & in the long run will benefit the cause. -- Merritt Clifton Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE P.O. Box 960 Clinton, WA 98236 Telephone: 360-579-2505 Fax: 360-579-2575 E-mail: anmlpepl Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; for free sample, send address.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2007 Report Share Posted December 29, 2007 Being the junior most amongst you all (in age), I probably have not reached a level to judge anybody's efforts in this field. So be it Meritt or John, I believe we should not be forgetting why we are all actively participating in a forum such as this. All of us are invloved actively in field work almost all day long but still try and find time to post interesting articles (interesting being a very relative term here), debate posts (which might look to some as direct assault),etc....but end of the day someway or the other, the animals stood to gain....may be just a miniscule but then atleast that. Having said that, its my humble request not to bring in confusion and instability into this forum at this point of time. If debates are seen as setting up the stage for a cold war, then we ourselves defeat the purpose of this forum. John, It would be great if you could continue moderating the posts like you have been doing......and more importantly donig it so wonderfully. Like Shubroto and Nilesh have mentioned, I see NO reason why there needs to be a change Btw Merry X-Mas and a Happy New Yr to you all! Thanks, Pablo. On 12/29/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > >I propose Merritt to be the new Moderator of this group! > >I believe that Merritt will be fair / unbiased. > > Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have a more than > fulltime job already, & have no interest in taking over John > Wedderburn's project of the past many years. > > I will point out, though, that the humane cause has always > grown by division, much like the reproduction of cells, & that > inevitably as organizations and projects expand, portions break off > to take their own direction. attracting their own supporters and > participants. > > Sooner or later, some AAPN participants will start their own > lists to pursue other focuses, e.g. on particular nations or topics, > or to introduce other modes of operation that they believe will be > more successful. > > This will tend to bring more people into discussions of the > issues, & in the long run will benefit the cause. > > -- > Merritt Clifton > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > P.O. Box 960 > Clinton, WA 98236 > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > Fax: 360-579-2575 > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > for free sample, send address.] > > -- WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 Well, I suppose I'm wrong. I've been listening to this site for about ten or so years and only thought of it as the creation of John (Wedderburn); all the rest of us using it as more or less guests. I think he makes the best moderator for the same reason I believe in animal rights, and vegetarianism. It seems to me incongruent for someone to like animals but dislike people or like people but like dislike animals. John, being a doctor, and putting up with what he does, certainly indicates he likes both. I also feel the different points of view expressed here are really a very good thing. (though of course it would be nicer if they were presented in a more informative, less combative manner.) ;-)) I hope you're a superman and can keep it up forever, or as long as it's needed John. thanks. :-) - " Pablo " <pablo.tachil " Merritt Clifton " <anmlpepl; " Dr John Wedderburn " <john Cc: <aapn >; " john edmundson " <balathai; " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:18 AM Re: Re: " the tyranny of the shoulds " > Being the junior most amongst you all (in age), I probably have not reached > a level to judge anybody's efforts in this field. So be it Meritt or John, I > believe we should not be forgetting why we are all actively participating in > a forum such as this. All of us are invloved actively in field work almost > all day long but still try and find time to post interesting articles > (interesting being a very relative term here), debate posts (which might > look to some as direct assault),etc....but end of the day someway or the > other, the animals stood to gain....may be just a miniscule but then atleast > that. > > Having said that, its my humble request not to bring in confusion and > instability into this forum at this point of time. If debates are seen > as setting up the stage for a cold war, then we ourselves defeat the purpose > of this forum. > > John, > It would be great if you could continue moderating the posts like you have > been doing......and more importantly donig it so wonderfully. Like Shubroto > and Nilesh have mentioned, I see NO reason why there needs to be a change > > Btw Merry X-Mas and a Happy New Yr to you all! > > Thanks, Pablo. > > > On 12/29/07, Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl wrote: > > > > >I propose Merritt to be the new Moderator of this group! > > >I believe that Merritt will be fair / unbiased. > > > > Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have a more than > > fulltime job already, & have no interest in taking over John > > Wedderburn's project of the past many years. > > > > I will point out, though, that the humane cause has always > > grown by division, much like the reproduction of cells, & that > > inevitably as organizations and projects expand, portions break off > > to take their own direction. attracting their own supporters and > > participants. > > > > Sooner or later, some AAPN participants will start their own > > lists to pursue other focuses, e.g. on particular nations or topics, > > or to introduce other modes of operation that they believe will be > > more successful. > > > > This will tend to bring more people into discussions of the > > issues, & in the long run will benefit the cause. > > > > -- > > Merritt Clifton > > Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE > > P.O. Box 960 > > Clinton, WA 98236 > > > > Telephone: 360-579-2505 > > Fax: 360-579-2575 > > E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com> > > Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org > > > > [ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing > > original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide, > > founded in 1992. Our readership of 30,000-plus includes the > > decision-makers at more than 10,000 animal protection organizations. > > We have no alignment or affiliation with any other entity. $24/year; > > for free sample, send address.] > > > > > > > > -- > WOCON: http://groups.google.co.inwocon > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Laughter is an essential part of helping animals. I do not see anyone laughing " at " fellow Members Azam. 2 quotes - " If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide. " - Mohandas Gandhi " Pain is inevitable...suffering is optional. " - Sandy Bachom - recovering alcoholic aapn , " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 wrote: > > > Any idea that can't withstand the test of humor isn't worth having. > > Why Sir? > > If some of us are striving hard to get serious issues as 'Elephant > polo' etc, why JOKE or add HUMOUR and make fun of it. > > You are a senior animal person and moreover an Editor, does this > attitude suit you? > > >anyone who wishes to have a good > > laugh at me is quite welcome > > We joined AAPN not to laugh at fellow members, it must be avoided as > far as possible. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 >Laughter is an essential part of helping animals.< Yes, well said John. Lest we forget, that it was our best friends who taught the art of 'laughter' to the Gandhis and the Bachoms. Here is to you. A recent study has found that laughter was not developed first by humans but by the apes as orangutans have a sense of empathy and mimicry which is an essential part of the behaviour. On that happy note, wish you all at AAPN a fun filled New Year !! Azam --\ -------------------------------- Link: http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1142757 * Laughter 'developed by apes, not humans'* PTI Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:02 IST LONDON: No character sketch of a movie villain is generally complete without a signature evil laugh. But have you ever wondered how laughter evolved? If a study is to be believed, the behaviour started before we split from our close biological cousins -- the apes. A team of international researchers has carried out the study and found that laughter was not developed first by humans but by the apes as orangutans have a sense of empathy and mimicry which is an essential part of the behaviour, 'The Daily Telegraph' reported on Wednesday. According to lead researcher Dr Marina Davila Ross of the University of Portsmouth, " What is clear now is the building blocks of positive emotional contagion and empathy that refer to rapid involuntary facial mimicry in humans evolved prior to humankind. " The team came to the conclusion after analysing the way facial expressions were picked up and copied by a group of 25 orangutans at four primate centres around the world. When one of the orangutans displayed an open, gaping mouth - the equivalent of laughter -- the researchers examined the response of its playmate. Dr Ross explained that often the playmate displayed the same expression less than half a second later, suggesting the mimicry was an involuntary display. According to Dr Ross, the findings shed new light on empathy and its importance for animals which live in groups. " It revealed that empathy of positive emotions or contagious laughter evolved before humans. " The results of the study have been published in the latest edition of the 'Biology Letters' journal. --\ ------------------------ On Dec 31, 2007 8:30 AM, John Edmundson < balathai wrote: > Laughter is an essential part of helping animals. > > I do not see anyone laughing " at " fellow Members Azam. > > 2 quotes - > > " If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed > suicide. " - Mohandas Gandhi > > " Pain is inevitable...suffering is optional. " - Sandy Bachom - > recovering alcoholic > > > aapn <aapn%40>, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " > <azam24x7 wrote: > > > > > Any idea that can't withstand the test of humor isn't worth > having. > > > > Why Sir? > > > > If some of us are striving hard to get serious issues as 'Elephant > > polo' etc, why JOKE or add HUMOUR and make fun of it. > > > > You are a senior animal person and moreover an Editor, does this > > attitude suit you? > > > > >anyone who wishes to have a good > > > laugh at me is quite welcome > > > > We joined AAPN not to laugh at fellow members, it must be avoided as > > far as possible. > > > > > -- United against elephant polo http://www.freewebs.com/elephantpolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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