Guest guest Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Dear Azam, I think you know this already but I would like to emphasise it again. Scott Riddle's elephant training methods have been called to question. He allegedly instituted a training method at Blackpool Zoo that involved goading elephants with electric cattle prods. I am attaching two reports that speak about his training techniques. One report says, " In a letter to the American Zoological Society dated December 1999, Pat Derby of PAWS writes: " The disturbing facts surrounding the deaths of zoo elephants associated with Scott Riddle are common knowledge in the elephant community and have been carefully hidden while Mr Riddle conducts his elephant training school and his consultant services to zoos throughout the world. " There is ample ground to question whether he has " embarked on a noble mission " for elephants in Assam. His consultancy in India is of special concern since very often in India we accept whatever comes from the West without properly considering what exactly it entails for us here. A comprehensive discussion on Scott Riddle's training methods can be found in the excellent study of the RSPCA and Oxford University on captive elephants in Europe by Ros Clubb and Georgia Mason. You can access the report online at http://www.hsi.org.au/news_library_events/Elephants%20in%20Zoos/RSPCA_European_Z\ oos_elephant_report.pdf Scott Riddle was recently featured in an Animal Planet programme that highlighted his work with elephants in a sanctuary he runs. One only hopes that the elephants under his care are not subjected to electric shocks to make them tractable. Thanks for bringing this item to our attention. Best wishes and warm regards, http://www.captiveanimals.org/elephants/epp.htm The elephant protection project Archive ** UPDATE: Scott Riddle has now been banned from visiting Blackpool Zoo and handling the elephants.<http://www.captiveanimals.org/elephants/eppupdate3.htm> In December 1999, the Captive Animals Protection Society revealed that Katie and Crumple, two female Asian elephants at Blackpool Zoo had been electric shocked during training. The elephants, like many zoo and safari park elephants in the UK, have been trained to perform tricks to entertain zoo visitors. In 1998, an Elephant Training Seminar was held at Blackpool Zoo. In charge, was Scott Riddle, an American elephant trainer. In a letter to the American Zoological Society dated December 1999, Pat Derby of PAWS writes: " The disturbing facts surrounding the deaths of zoo elephants associated with Scott Riddle are common knowledge in the elephant community and have been carefully hidden while Mr Riddle conducts his elephant training school and his consultant services to zoos throughout the world. " ** *The elephant handlers course* The Elephant Handlers Course was held at Blackpool Zoo in September 1998. It was attended by keepers from UK zoos and Safari parks. Representatives from Woburn, Whipsnade, Longleat and West Midlands Safari Parks and Twycross zoo attended. Blackpool zoos elephant keeping staff were also present. The curriculum included proper use of chains, proper use of rope, elephant training and elephant breeding. CAPS decided to investigate and expose the methods Scott Riddle use to train elephants. We put an investigator on the elephant handling course. Our investigator met Riddle and zoo manager Iain Valentine. In his office Valentine demonstrated with an elephant hook how to give the elephants a whack, because elephant training was about the trainer establishing the 'right' relationship to begin with. ** Our investigator kept a diary, in which it was noted that Scott Riddle was adamant that his work with the Blackpool elephants was not to be filmed in case 'something went wrong'. He said that the public wouldn't understand 'why we do it (train the elephants) this way'. During training the elephants urinated a lot. This seemed to be a reaction to the training/handling process. At one point when the elephants were taken out for a walk in the paddock, a Blackpool elephant keeper carried an electric shock device, a 4 feet long bright yellow hot shot (see pictures). Our investigator was told by another of the 'students' that 2 weeks before the course started Riddle had pulled down the elephants with ropes and a winch and they were shocked with the electric prods, to establish his authority. Riddle told students that the elephants did what he wanted because of his demeanor - some of the students did not know until later that week that it was the shocking treatment they had received and not his demeanor that made the elephants scared of Scott Riddle. Riddle was supposed to train elephants in other safari parks in 1999 but for some reason these training sessions were cancelled. At an elephant meeting held that week at the Zoo, some elephant keepers on the course would not discuss in front of others the training procedures they used on elephants. It was noted that the Chipperfield court case would put the spot light on zoo elephant trainers. ** In December 1999 CAPS was able to prove that the electric shock devices were used on the elephants. Blackpool Council who own the zoo admitted in a letter that the goads had been used. The Director of Community Services says " The goads were used once or twice during training... the voltage discharge will give no long term damage " . CAPS has taken advice from elephant experts and Veterinary Surgeons who disagree. Dr Bill Jordan, retired wildlife vet and elephant expert says: " Amnesty International believes the cruellest method to torture people is with electricity - the same is true for animals " . Iain Valentine the zoo manager denied the electric shock devices were used. In a letter to Irene Boyne he said " The use of electric goads is not permitted " . He also lied in a letter to Joan Humble MP. Valentine said " I could not contemplate when stretching would be used in elephant training! " Yet on the undercover video whilst in his office he tells our investigator that the elephants are doing a bit of stretching! Diane Westwood VN, Executive Director of CAPS has worked in the zoo industry and is a qualified Veterinary Nurse. She says: " We are appalled that Katie and Crumple have been treated in this way. Elephants are extremely special, intelligent and sensitive animals. To torture these animals using electric shock devices so that they can perform circus type tricks for zoo visitors is an utter disgrace " . *.* The video footage, filmed undercover, shows the elephants being trained to life their feet and head, hold sticks in their mouths and are jabbed with elephant hooks in the shoulder and head. Keepers from other zoos and safari parks take it in turns to climb up and sit on one of the elephants. The elephants urinate frequently, and vocalise – particularly when they are forced to hold a stick in their mouths. On day 4 Scott Riddle admitted damaging Katie's mouth by pulling on the hook. Also on Day 4 our investigator counted 18 'holes' in Katie's face, Crumples also had blood on her face. Blackpool zoo elephant keepers can clearly be seen jabbing the elephants with elephant hooks on film. This investigation was given massive coverage in national press and media. We hope that the public remember what they have read when they see performing elephants in zoos. Pat Simpson, CAPS Director and Blackpool resident is horrified. She has demanded a public inquiry into the treatment of elephants at Blackpool Zoo. Blackpool Council are investigating. The CAPS Elephant Protection Project will continue. We will not stop, until the abuse of captive elephants in zoos and circuses has ceased. *Legislation* In California a bill was introduced to offer some protection to captive elephants. The bill states 'It shall be a misdemeanor for any owner or manager of an elephant to engage in abusive behaviour toward the elephant, which behaviour shall include; depravation of food, water and rest; use of electricity; physical punishment resulting in damage, scarring or breakage of skin; insertion of any instrument into any bodily orifice.' CAPS has asked our government to introduce similar legislation. Please help us by writing to your MP. *Elephant training* ** A retired elephant keeper summarised elephant training. It includes: *Chaining* – to establish initial dominance over elephants, they are chained for long periods. Chains are attached to one or both front and back legs and sometimes around the neck. The animal is sometimes ''stretched' - this is where the elephant lowers down onto its sternum. It is an unnatural position, one that elephants do not assume for any length of time through choice. If forced to stay in this position for any length of time circulation can be affected and it can be fatal. *Beating* – To further 'break' elephants during training sessions they are beaten with implements. *Electric shocks* – once elephants are broken to a training schedule, electric shock devices, sometimes called 'hotshots' are applied to force the elephant into the desired routine. *Ankus or elephant hook* – jabbed into sensitive areas such as the chin, ears, mouth and feet. The training of an elephant relies on domination. The elephant is beaten into a low social rank and is kept there. This becomes a never ending battle between the elephant and trainer and is why so many elephant trainers are killed. Elephant training relies on the application of pain and restraint. It is not just a one off process either. It carries on throughout the elephant's life. ** ** ** *.* *.* *.* *Suggested Reading* For more information on the treatment of captive elephants read *Keepers of the Ark* by R J Ryan, available from www.amazon.com. This is the true story of how elephants were cared for, handled, and trained during the time the author worked as an elephant keeper at the San Diego Wild Animal Park. For the first time, the public can get a behind the scenes look at the daily life of captive elephants. The author, R J Ryan, says " This book was written as a promise to the elephants that I worked with that one day their story would be told. The names of most of the participants were changed because it is a universal story of how these beautiful and passive animals are treated and what they endure on a daily basis throughout the world. It is my hope that their story will touch you the way they touched me and that you will forever look upon them with different eyes. " http://archives.foodsafety.ksu.edu/animalnet/1999/12-1999/an-12-13-99-01.txt ZOO DEFENDS USE OF `HOTSHOT' PRODS TO TRAIN ELEPHANTS December 12, 1999 PA News/ Electronic Telegraph Electric goads, prohibited under European guidelines and deplored by animal welfare organisations, are, according to these stories, being used on elephants at one of Britain's leading zoos. Blackpool Zoo, which has four Asian elephants, was cited as saying that the goads - known as " hotshots " - are " an integral part " of its elephant management programme. These stories explained that keepers routinely carry the implements when working in close proximity to Katie, Crumple, India and Tara, the zoo's four elephants, and especially when the animals are being moved from their enclosures to fields for grazing. The elephants are, these stories say, trained by Scott Riddle, an American elephant consultant whose use of goads has caused controversy in the United States. He has conducted a training seminar for British elephant handlers from a number of zoos and safari parks. These stories further explained that the use of electric goads breaches guidelines issued by the European Association of Zoos, of which Blackpool Zoo is a member. The Captive Animals Preservation Society, an animal welfare group, brought the issue to light, during an undercover investigation during which the society secretly filmed two of the zoo's handlers carrying the goads. One was described as " four feet long with two prongs at the end. " Diane Westwood, the society's spokesman, was quoted as saying, " We are appalled that elephants have been treated in this way. This could cause long-term damage. " The society was cited as being concerned that use of the goads has coincided with a rise in the number of " circus-type performances " by elephants at a number of zoos. These stories explained that Blackpool puts on a regular elephant show, at the end of which the animals use their trunks to unfurl a banner saying, " Thank you for watching the Elephant Encounter. " Mrs Westwood was quoted as saying, " We believe that the prongs are being used partly because more is being asked of the elephants to make them more like circus performers. " The zoo was cited as denying using the prods at first. A spokesman, Williams, was quoted as telling The Telegraph, " Carrying them and using them are two different things. " However, he later was cited as admitting that keepers did use the implements, stressing it was only " for the safety of the keepers, the public and the elephants. " Blackpool borough council, which owns and licenses the zoo, also was cited as confirming that the goads had been used during " training. " Iain Valentine, the manager of Blackpool Zoo, was cited as defending the use of the hotshots, describing them as " an integral part " of its elephant management programme and claiming that many other zoos had the goads but denied their use for publicity reasons. He was also cited as saying that the rods have to be available to meet health and safety regulations, adding, " The piece of equipment is seen as an important safety tool when keepers are working in close proximity to an elephant and especially when elephants are being moved from their enclosures to fields for grazing. " Mr Valentine was cited as admitting that in " untrained-hands " the use of hotshots could be abused, as could other safety equipment such as elephant hooks. He said that within the draft European guidelines, which govern elephant management, their use is not permitted. But he added that he felt this document would be amended as more collections adopted the same methods as used at Blackpool. He was quoted as saying, " The most important aspects of elephant management therefore are staff safety and animal welfare. I, along with fellow zoo curators and directors, but more importantly elephant keepers, believe that the hotshot is an essential, modern piece of equipment which is used every day in the agricultural industry and is, when in trained hands, an additional safety measure. " He was further cited as acknowledging that the zoo had broken European guidelines but added that recommendations governing the goads would " undoubtedly be amended as more and more collections adopt the same methods that exist at Blackpool Zoo. " Other leading British zoos did not agree. Molly Badham, director of Twycross Zoo, was cited as saying that she would not use them in any circumstances, adding, " Elephants are intelligent and sensitive creatures and the way to handle them is with a system of rewards and incentives. They have good memories and if you are cruel to an elephant then one day he will get you back. " A London Zoo spokesman was quoted as saying, " We do have an electric goad but it's kept in a cupboard in the keeper's mess and would never be brought out except in extreme circumstances. We would certainly never consider allowing our elephant staff to carry it around the zoo with them. " An RSPCA spokesman, Emma Nutbrown, was quoted as saying, " We are very concerned. These goads are frightening for the elephants and there is evidence that they can cause mental suffering as well as physical pain. " On 1/20/08, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote: > > I would like to refer to the editorial of the current 'Animal People' > issue > : > *Elephant polo debate overshadows introduction of microchipping*Link: > http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/07/11/elephantpolodebate11_07.html > It may be noted that Scott and Heidi Riddle along with officials and vets > from United Kingdom's Blackpool Zoo embarked on a noble mission to > microchip > the elephants of northeastern region of India. > I did meet them whilst they carried out micro chipping of at least a dozen > captive elephants at a camp organised at the Assam State Zoo in Guwahati > city here. > I also got a chance record and interview of him and he said that this > process shall continue with the help of the State wildlife departments and > very shortly all the captive elephants will be micro chipped. > > It continued for some days/month and I attended another such camp in > Guwahati where an odd dozen of elephants were micro chipped by local > officials. > > Sadly for some reasons this trend seemed to discontinue. > > And soon we busted a racket of four adult elephants being smuggled out of > Assam state destined for Bihar on a broad gauge parcel wagon of the > railways > in Guwahati. > This was detected by the officials of the Railway Police as one of the > elephant was not micro chip embedded and also there was no certificates > from > the Forest deptt for their journey into Bihar. > The reason that was given by the attendents of the elephants was that the > elephants were taken for some 'Puja' to Bihar and will be brought back > after > it is over. > After a few days I am told that the elephants were allowed to be sent to > Bihar by the forest department, reasons not known. > > That was one odd incident where fortunately the smugglers got detected, > experts believe that Assam elephants that are smuggled out generally are > taken to Bihar for the Asia`s largest animal market where buyers from > Bollywood, South India`s temples, circus etc assemble, and or is taken > from > Bihar to Nepal. > > As you can see that the concept of micro chipping in India dates back to > 2002 when it was perhaps first introduced, maybe some states even started > of > earlier than that. > Yet there has been no debate carried out at least within India to 'WHY' > and > for 'WHAT' reasons the micro chipping trend has been stopped in the states > where it was started bringing so much hope to end the smuggling of > elephants. > Is it just lack of funds, or is this due to the vested interest of the > elephant smuggling lobby which perhaps includes high profile politicians, > brokers etc that is the reason for this failure? > It needs to be probed at the highest level, this is one of the MOST > important points of debate and discussion if at all we are seriously > concerned about conserving the elephant of India. > > On the other hand, 'ELEPHANT POLO' debate is something very different and > can NEVER be the reason for Micro chipping of elephants to get OVER > SHADOWED. > > I cannot see any link between the two as of now. > > Micro chipping of elephants in India is an old issue, while elephant polo > debate is just a year old baby. > > Having said that I would be glad if we can get some fresh inputs on the > micro chipping status and the success/ failures in specific states of > India. > > Lets focus on it, > > Azam > > P.S: Please find an archive news report on the micro chipping of elephants > in North east India below. > > Link: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020831/biz.htm#7 > > *Microchips implanted in 17 elephants* > > Chariduar (Assam), August 30 > Altogether 17 domestic elephants were implanted with microchips at > Chariduar > Forest Range in Assam today by United Kingdom's Blackpool Zoo animal > experts > and veterinary doctors from the state and Arunachal Pradesh to identify > and > monitor their movements, top forest official said. > > This was the third and last camp for implanting the silicon chips, after > the > ones in Delhi and Guwahati under Project Elephant by two experts from > Blackpool Zoo and sponsored by the centre, state Chief Conservator of > Forest > (Wildlife) Sonadhar Doley said here. > > Two domesticated pachyderms Rajeswari and her calf Suman were the first to > be fixed with the microchips, which would also identify and monitor other > implanted elephants' movement. > > He said the chips were implanted in 12 elephants from south west forest > division and five from Nameri National Park but no animal turned up from > Arunachal Pradesh due to long distance, non-availability of food on the > way, > difficult terrain and adverse weather conditions. > > Blackpool Zoo Director Iain Valentine and Scott Riddle, Director of Riddle > Elephant and Wildlife Sanctuary UK, said the zoo, under Project Elephant, > had implanted 28 elephants in Delhi, 14 in Guwahati, besides 17 here > today. > A sum of £ 8,000 had been spent for the implantation, including £ 5,500 > for > equipment in the state, Mr Valentine said. * PTI* > > -- > United against elephant polo > http://www.stopelephantpolo.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 >I think you know this already< Oh, yes. I know most of the allegations against Scott. What I meant was the effort that he and Blackwell Zoo etc took to come over here and donate microchip readers, chips by launching the project. Just that much I was pointing at, and that indeed was a noble gesture to be able to aid a region which often finds excuses of not being able to do the needful due lack of funds. Azam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Dear Azam, Apart from Scott Riddle's alleged abusive elephant training methods, the role of the Blackpool Zoo director Iain Valentine in dealing with captive elephants has also been called into question. It is quite easy for individuals who have have had their work censured in developed countries to pass them on to developing countries where very few people would object to their involvement in any project. If they are executing a project on microchipping elephants in India it is best done with caution. Maybe you can make an enquiry if Riddle and Valentine are also teaching elephant training in Assam. Last month I saw an elephant at Guwahati Zoo which had both its front legs chained. I asked the keeper why the animal was tied in that position and he told me it was done because the elephant was dangerous. If there are 'dangerous' elephants in Guwahati Zoo, there is a possibility that Scott Riddle and Iain Valentine might suggest violent training methods to restrain the animals. Microchipping seems a good project but as the maxim goes, " If you sup with the devil you need a long spoon. " Warm regards, On 1/20/08, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote: > > >I think you know this already< > > Oh, yes. I know most of the allegations against Scott. > What I meant was the effort that he and Blackwell Zoo etc took to come > over here and donate microchip readers, chips by launching the > project. > > Just that much I was pointing at, and that indeed was a noble gesture > to be able to aid a region which often finds excuses of not being able > to do the needful due lack of funds. > > Azam > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 >Last month I saw an elephant at Guwahati Zoo which had both its front legs chained< Infact Carol Buckly had also raised objection to the chaining of elephant calves at the Assam state Zoo. She was appalled to see the ellies being chained and suggested other alternatives and recommendations which I did pass on to the authorities. But animal people are never taken seriously, and who better than you can understand this. Isn't it frustrating that after inspecting over 50 odd Zoos even you have failed to bring any respite to the animals imprisoned at zoos of India. Take the Alipore Zoo for example in Kolkata city where you are based at the moment. It is one of the worst managed zoos in the world, if I may say so. This despite the city being a metropolis and home to some of the nation`s leading animal welfare organisations and experts. >there is a possibility that Scott Riddle and Iain Valentine might suggest violent training methods to restrain the animals.< My friend, if you can recall what Assam`s Elephant trainer and someone who has been tagged as the 'Queen of Elephants' Ms. Parbati Barua had done with the tusker in the name of capturing in Chattisgarh, which was documented on video and had won a Green Oscar for filmmaker Mike Pandey, I do not think any method of elephant training can be more brutal and violent than that. Sometimes it is our people who send out the wrong signal to the west, and not always they. But fair enough, your suspicion is indeed valid. This certainly needs to be looked upon. regards, Azam On Jan 21, 2008 12:38 PM, wrote: > Dear Azam, > Apart from Scott Riddle's alleged abusive elephant > training methods, the role of the Blackpool Zoo director Iain Valentine in > dealing with captive elephants has also been called into question. It is > quite easy for individuals who have have had their work censured > in developed countries to pass them on to developing countries where very > few people would object to their involvement in any project. If they are > executing a project on microchipping elephants in India it is best done with > caution. Maybe you can make an enquiry if Riddle and Valentine are also > teaching elephant training in Assam. Last month I saw an elephant at > Guwahati Zoo which had both its front legs chained. I asked the keeper why > the animal was tied in that position and he told me it was done because the > elephant was dangerous. If there are 'dangerous' elephants in Guwahati Zoo, > there is a possibility that Scott Riddle and Iain Valentine might suggest > violent training methods to restrain the animals. Microchipping seems a good > project but as the maxim goes, " If you sup with the devil you need a long > spoon. " > Warm regards, > > > > > On 1/20/08, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote: > > > >I think you know this already< > > > > Oh, yes. I know most of the allegations against Scott. > > What I meant was the effort that he and Blackwell Zoo etc took to come > > over here and donate microchip readers, chips by launching the > > project. > > > > Just that much I was pointing at, and that indeed was a noble gesture > > to be able to aid a region which often finds excuses of not being able > > to do the needful due lack of funds. > > > > Azam > > > > -- United against elephant polo http://www.stopelephantpolo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Dear Azam, Thanks for expressing your views. The zoo issue in India is too big for one individual or organisation to tackle. But the Indian Zoo Inquiry has made some impact since I was informed it was taken as a reference in a Supreme Court case in 2006 that banned the breeding of some animals in captivity in India. It has been acknowledged as a useful document to aid further zoo research too. The campaign to shift Alipore Zoo goes on and the zoo is likely to be shifted within the next few years. Regarding Parbati Baruah, yes I know about the case you are talking about. But the trend of developed countries to misuse power in developing countries remains a reality nevertheless. And therefore I remain sceptical about Scott Riddle's project in Assam. If he admits his wrongdoings in the past, his work in Assam could be seen as genuine. But if he defends his abusive elephant training methods and advocates microchipping at the same time, I am not convinced his motive behind microchipping is laudable. Best wishes and wam regards, On 1/21/08, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote: > > >Last month I saw an elephant at Guwahati Zoo which had both its front > legs chained< > > Infact Carol Buckly had also raised objection to the chaining of elephant > calves at the Assam state Zoo. She was appalled to see the ellies being > chained and suggested other alternatives and recommendations which I did > pass on to the authorities. > But animal people are never taken seriously, and who better than you can > understand this. > Isn't it frustrating that after inspecting over 50 odd Zoos even you have > failed to bring any respite to the animals imprisoned at zoos of India. > > Take the Alipore Zoo for example in Kolkata city where you are based at > the moment. > It is one of the worst managed zoos in the world, if I may say so. This > despite the city being a metropolis and home to some of the nation`s leading > animal welfare organisations and experts. > > >there is a possibility that Scott Riddle and Iain Valentine might suggest > violent training methods to restrain the animals.< > > My friend, if you can recall what Assam`s Elephant trainer and someone who > has been tagged as the 'Queen of Elephants' Ms. Parbati Barua had done with > the tusker in the name of capturing in Chattisgarh, which was documented on > video and had won a Green Oscar for filmmaker Mike Pandey, I do not think > any method of elephant training can be more brutal and violent than that. > Sometimes it is our people who send out the wrong signal to the west, and > not always they. > > But fair enough, your suspicion is indeed valid. This certainly needs to > be looked upon. > > regards, > > Azam > > > > On Jan 21, 2008 12:38 PM, < > journalistandanimals wrote: > > > Dear Azam, > > Apart from Scott Riddle's alleged abusive elephant > > training methods, the role of the Blackpool Zoo director Iain Valentine in > > dealing with captive elephants has also been called into question. It is > > quite easy for individuals who have have had their work censured > > in developed countries to pass them on to developing countries where very > > few people would object to their involvement in any project. If they are > > executing a project on microchipping elephants in India it is best done with > > caution. Maybe you can make an enquiry if Riddle and Valentine are also > > teaching elephant training in Assam. Last month I saw an elephant at > > Guwahati Zoo which had both its front legs chained. I asked the keeper why > > the animal was tied in that position and he told me it was done because the > > elephant was dangerous. If there are 'dangerous' elephants in Guwahati Zoo, > > there is a possibility that Scott Riddle and Iain Valentine might suggest > > violent training methods to restrain the animals. Microchipping seems a good > > project but as the maxim goes, " If you sup with the devil you need a long > > spoon. " > > Warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > On 1/20/08, AZAM SIDDIQUI <azam24x7 wrote: > > > > > >I think you know this already< > > > > > > Oh, yes. I know most of the allegations against Scott. > > > What I meant was the effort that he and Blackwell Zoo etc took to come > > > > > > over here and donate microchip readers, chips by launching the > > > project. > > > > > > Just that much I was pointing at, and that indeed was a noble gesture > > > to be able to aid a region which often finds excuses of not being able > > > > > > to do the needful due lack of funds. > > > > > > Azam > > > > > > > > > > -- > United against elephant polo > http://www.stopelephantpolo.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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