Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 I am in touch with a lot of eminent experts from India on wildlife and veteran journalists with regards to the recent World Bank stand on Tiger farming. Most experts in India believe that any conservation initiative by the World Bank should be treated with skepticism. Specially with regards to the World Bank policies and stand on Tiger Farming the experts feel one has to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. Azam On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, < journalistandanimals wrote: > Dear all, > There have been some discussions on World Bank's policies on > tiger farming and also related issues concerning global warming and the > concomitant role of individuals and organisations. In this regard, I would > like to state that I was able to discuss some of these issues(not all > though) during a meeting I had with Mr Joseph Stiglitz, former Vice > President and Chief Economist of the World Bank two years ago. I > interviewed > Mr Stiglitz for a small article regarding his childhood but our discussions > went way beyond that(Article link here : > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/telekids/story_8570674.asp ) > During our meeting, Mr Stiglitz was savagely critical of some of the World > Bank's policies with reference to Asia. > Mr Stiglitz has written extensively on issues surrounding the World Bank's > policies that may be helpful in understanding their stance on the global > tiger trade and his personal stance on global warming and related issues. > Many of his articles can be accessed here : > ( http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/209/42796.html ) > An > article by Mr Stiglitz on global warming can be read here : > http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1115-27.htm > For a better understanding of World Bank economic policies that are > relevant to the tiger trade situation, I would recommend the book > *Stability > with Growth: Macroeconomics, Liberalization, and Developme*nt (Initiative > for Policy Dialogue Series C); by Joseph Eugene Stiglitz, Jose Antonio > Ocampo, Shari Spiegel, Ricardo Ffrench-Davis, and Deepak Nayyar; Oxford > University Press, 2006. > There is a strong economic argument against the viability of tiger farming > as compared to the conservation, animal welfare and animal rights ones. > Therefore these documents are worth perusing. > Best wishes and kind regards, > > > Joseph E. Stiglitz is especially well-known as a critic of the reigning > international economic policies and the institutions that enforce them – > the > International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the United States Treasury > Department. After a distinguished academic career on the faculty of MIT, > Yale and Stanford, Stiglitz joined the Clinton administration in 1993 as > member of the Council of Economic Advisors. He later was named the > Council's > Chairman. In 1997 he took the post of Senior Vice President and Chief > Economist at the World Bank Though a consummate political insider, Stiglitz > grew increasingly disillusioned with the failures of neo-liberal policy and > began to voice his thinking in public speeches. Increasingly outspoken, he > eventually was ousted from his World Bank post, allegedly on orders from US > Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Since leaving the bank, Stiglitz has > sharpened his criticism further, making embarrassing revelations about the > role of the IMF in the Russian loan scandal, among other things. In mid > 2001, he joined faculty of Columbia University and on 10 October 2001, it > was announced that he would be awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic Science. > > This section contains articles about Stiglitz's stormy career at the World > Bank, texts of some of his speeches and policy papers, media interviews and > other materials. Of the many senior staff who have resigned in disgust from > the World Bank over the years, Stiglitz has provided us with a deep and > intelligent critique. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hi, can someone please point to a link that clearly defines the ³recent World Bank stand on Tiger farming²? I asked my wife, she works there, and all she knows is that she ³heard something about it.² As one of the not-so ³senior staff who have resigned in disgust from the World Bank over the years² I¹d be interested and might be able to help decipher the gorp. Cheers, Jigs in Nepal On 7/16/09 2:15 PM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 wrote: > I am in touch with a lot of eminent experts from India on wildlife and > veteran journalists with regards to the recent World Bank stand on Tiger > farming. > > Most experts in India believe that any conservation initiative by the World > Bank should be treated with skepticism. > Specially with regards to the World Bank policies and stand on Tiger Farming > the experts feel one has to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. > > Azam > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, < > journalistandanimals wrote: > >> > Dear all, >> > There have been some discussions on World Bank's policies on >> > tiger farming and also related issues concerning global warming and the >> > concomitant role of individuals and organisations. In this regard, I would >> > like to state that I was able to discuss some of these issues(not all >> > though) during a meeting I had with Mr Joseph Stiglitz, former Vice >> > President and Chief Economist of the World Bank two years ago. I >> > interviewed >> > Mr Stiglitz for a small article regarding his childhood but our discussions >> > went way beyond that(Article link here : >> > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/telekids/story_8570674.asp ) >> > During our meeting, Mr Stiglitz was savagely critical of some of the World >> > Bank's policies with reference to Asia. >> > Mr Stiglitz has written extensively on issues surrounding the World Bank's >> > policies that may be helpful in understanding their stance on the global >> > tiger trade and his personal stance on global warming and related issues. >> > Many of his articles can be accessed here : >> > ( http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/209/42796.html ) >> > An >> > article by Mr Stiglitz on global warming can be read here : >> > http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1115-27.htm >> > For a better understanding of World Bank economic policies that are >> > relevant to the tiger trade situation, I would recommend the book >> > *Stability >> > with Growth: Macroeconomics, Liberalization, and Developme*nt (Initiative >> > for Policy Dialogue Series C); by Joseph Eugene Stiglitz, Jose Antonio >> > Ocampo, Shari Spiegel, Ricardo Ffrench-Davis, and Deepak Nayyar; Oxford >> > University Press, 2006. >> > There is a strong economic argument against the viability of tiger farming >> > as compared to the conservation, animal welfare and animal rights ones. >> > Therefore these documents are worth perusing. >> > Best wishes and kind regards, >> > >> > >> > Joseph E. Stiglitz is especially well-known as a critic of the reigning >> > international economic policies and the institutions that enforce them – >> > the >> > International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the United States Treasury >> > Department. After a distinguished academic career on the faculty of MIT, >> > Yale and Stanford, Stiglitz joined the Clinton administration in 1993 as >> > member of the Council of Economic Advisors. He later was named the >> > Council's >> > Chairman. In 1997 he took the post of Senior Vice President and Chief >> > Economist at the World Bank Though a consummate political insider, Stiglitz >> > grew increasingly disillusioned with the failures of neo-liberal policy and >> > began to voice his thinking in public speeches. Increasingly outspoken, he >> > eventually was ousted from his World Bank post, allegedly on orders from US >> > Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Since leaving the bank, Stiglitz has >> > sharpened his criticism further, making embarrassing revelations about the >> > role of the IMF in the Russian loan scandal, among other things. In mid >> > 2001, he joined faculty of Columbia University and on 10 October 2001, it >> > was announced that he would be awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic Science. >> > >> > This section contains articles about Stiglitz's stormy career at the World >> > Bank, texts of some of his speeches and policy papers, media interviews and >> > other materials. Of the many senior staff who have resigned in disgust from >> > the World Bank over the years, Stiglitz has provided us with a deep and >> > intelligent critique. >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hi Jigs, Please find the following press release issued by the World Bank HQ in Washington DC with regards to the recent stand taken by the organisation on 'Tiger farming'. This was posted on AAPN but I am reposting it again. The contact details of Ms. Getanjali Chopra is there who is looking after this matter. Maybe she can help you with more details. Cheers !! Azam http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:21796440~pagePK:6425\ 7043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html New Global Initiative Sets Out to Reverse Decline inTiger Numbers *Press Release:* No.2008/357/EXC *Contacts: *In Washington: World Bank: Geetanjali Chopra: (202) 473 0243 gchopra National Zoo Public Affairs (202) 633-3055 International Tiger Coalition: Sarah Janicke: (301) 442-3741 *WASHINGTON, June 9, 2008* ─ A worldwide alliance oftiger conservationists, scientists and celebrities have joined forces with the World Bank Group and the Global Environment Facility (GEF) to help save wild tigers. Tiger numbers have declined from more than 100,000 a century ago to around 4,000 today. The decline is driven by a loss of prey and habitat due to uncontrolled development and poaching for the black-market trade intiger skins and bones. " *Nothing short of global action will bring back wild tigers*, " said *Grace Ge Gabriel,*spokesperson for the InternationalTiger Coalition (ITC). “*The ITC applauds the World Bankfor focusing the eyes of the world on wild tigers and their needs*. " The health of the tiger population is an indicator of biodiversity and a barometer of sustainability. Since tigers are at the top of the food chain, the conservation of wild tigers also means the preservation of the habitats in which they live and the prey populations that support them. " *Tigers occupy only 7% of their historical range and about 40% less than they did just a decade ago. Business-as-usual is not sustaining wild tigers today,†said* *John Seidensticker*, Head, Conservation Ecology Center, Smithsonian's National Zoo. “*All signs point to an impending tiger range collapse. I am pleased and encouraged that the World Bank and others are joining in our collaborative effort to find the ways and means so that wild tigers and no species are left behind in this time of unprecedented global economic expansion that threatens biodiversity* " The new Tiger Conservation Initiative, launched today at the Smithsonian’s National Zoo in Washington D.C., brings together many of the global experts who have been studying the decline of tiger populations and the many national and international NGOs which have been fighting to save tigers. " *Just as with many of the other challenges of sustainability—such as climate change, pandemic disease, or poverty—the crisis facing tigers overwhelms local capabilities and transcends national boundaries*, " said World Bank Group President *Robert B. Zoellick*. " *This is a problem that cannot be handled by individual nations alone. It requires an alliance of strong local commitment backed by deep international support*. " *Harrison Ford,* board member of Conservation International, who is putting his celebrity status behind thetiger initiative said: “*By committing to help wild tigers, theWorld Bank is sounding its intention to be a global leader in biodiversity conservation. I commend this commitment and look forward to seeing it in action*.†The Tiger Conservation Initiative will start with a series of dialogues in tiger range countries to find out what has worked locally to protect the tigers. The World Bank and its partners will assess the financing needs of tigerconservation and work with governments and the private sector to find innovative funding sources and mobilize new resources for the species’ protection. * " The countries in the range of the tiger are amongst the most important for GEF globally in delivering global biodiversity benefits. By partnering with them in a major effort to conserve quality habitat, this initiative will be pursuing outcomes in conservation, ecosystem services, and livelihoods* " said *Monique Barbut*, CEO and Chairman, Global Environment Facility. On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Jigs Gaton <herojig wrote: > Hi, can someone please point to a link that clearly defines the “recent > World Bank stand on Tiger farming� I asked my wife, she works there, and > all she knows is that she “heard something about it.†As one of the not-so > “senior staff who have resigned in disgust from the World Bank over the > years†I’d be interested and might be able to help decipher the gorp. > Cheers, > Jigs in Nepal > > > On 7/16/09 2:15 PM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 wrote: > > I am in touch with a lot of eminent experts from India on wildlife and > veteran journalists with regards to the recent World Bank stand on Tiger > farming. > > Most experts in India believe that any conservation initiative by the World > Bank should be treated with skepticism. > Specially with regards to the World Bank policies and stand on Tiger > Farming > the experts feel one has to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. > > Azam > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, < > journalistandanimals wrote: > > > Dear all, > > There have been some discussions on World Bank's policies on > > tiger farming and also related issues concerning global warming and the > > concomitant role of individuals and organisations. In this regard, I > would > > like to state that I was able to discuss some of these issues(not all > > though) during a meeting I had with Mr Joseph Stiglitz, former Vice > > President and Chief Economist of the World Bank two years ago. I > > interviewed > > Mr Stiglitz for a small article regarding his childhood but our > discussions > > went way beyond that(Article link here : > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/telekids/story_8570674.asp ) > > During our meeting, Mr Stiglitz was savagely critical of some of the > World > > Bank's policies with reference to Asia. > > Mr Stiglitz has written extensively on issues surrounding the World > Bank's > > policies that may be helpful in understanding their stance on the global > > tiger trade and his personal stance on global warming and related issues. > > Many of his articles can be accessed here : > > ( http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/209/42796.html ) > > An > > article by Mr Stiglitz on global warming can be read here : > > http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1115-27.htm > > For a better understanding of World Bank economic policies that are > > relevant to the tiger trade situation, I would recommend the book > > *Stability > > with Growth: Macroeconomics, Liberalization, and Developme*nt (Initiative > > for Policy Dialogue Series C); by Joseph Eugene Stiglitz, Jose Antonio > > Ocampo, Shari Spiegel, Ricardo Ffrench-Davis, and Deepak Nayyar; Oxford > > University Press, 2006. > > There is a strong economic argument against the viability of tiger > farming > > as compared to the conservation, animal welfare and animal rights ones. > > Therefore these documents are worth perusing. > > Best wishes and kind regards, > > > > > > Joseph E. Stiglitz is especially well-known as a critic of the reigning > > international economic policies and the institutions that enforce them ˆ > > > the > > International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the United States > Treasury > > Department. After a distinguished academic career on the faculty of MIT, > > Yale and Stanford, Stiglitz joined the Clinton administration in 1993 as > > member of the Council of Economic Advisors. He later was named the > > Council's > > Chairman. In 1997 he took the post of Senior Vice President and Chief > > Economist at the World Bank Though a consummate political insider, > Stiglitz > > grew increasingly disillusioned with the failures of neo-liberal policy > and > > began to voice his thinking in public speeches. Increasingly outspoken, > he > > eventually was ousted from his World Bank post, allegedly on orders from > US > > Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Since leaving the bank, Stiglitz has > > sharpened his criticism further, making embarrassing revelations about > the > > role of the IMF in the Russian loan scandal, among other things. In mid > > 2001, he joined faculty of Columbia University and on 10 October 2001, it > > was announced that he would be awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic > Science. > > > > This section contains articles about Stiglitz's stormy career at the > World > > Bank, texts of some of his speeches and policy papers, media interviews > and > > other materials. Of the many senior staff who have resigned in disgust > from > > the World Bank over the years, Stiglitz has provided us with a deep and > > intelligent critique. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Dear Jigme, Please check these links : http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:21796122~pagePK:6425\ 7043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:21796178~pagePK:6425\ 7043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html http://www.panda.org/wwf_news/?169902/World-Bank-debunks-tiger-farming-benefits Since your wife works there, maybe she can talk to someone directly about this and enlighten us further? It is a bit of a hot potato, is it not? :-) Best wishes and kind regards, On 7/17/09, Jigs Gaton <herojig wrote: > > Hi, can someone please point to a link that clearly defines the “recent > World Bank stand on Tiger farming� I asked my wife, she works there, and > all she knows is that she “heard something about it.†As one of the not-so > “senior staff who have resigned in disgust from the World Bank over the > years†I’d be interested and might be able to help decipher the gorp. > Cheers, > Jigs in Nepal > > > On 7/16/09 2:15 PM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 wrote: > > I am in touch with a lot of eminent experts from India on wildlife and > veteran journalists with regards to the recent World Bank stand on Tiger > farming. > > Most experts in India believe that any conservation initiative by the World > Bank should be treated with skepticism. > Specially with regards to the World Bank policies and stand on Tiger > Farming > the experts feel one has to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. > > Azam > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, < > journalistandanimals wrote: > > > Dear all, > > There have been some discussions on World Bank's policies on > > tiger farming and also related issues concerning global warming and the > > concomitant role of individuals and organisations. In this regard, I > would > > like to state that I was able to discuss some of these issues(not all > > though) during a meeting I had with Mr Joseph Stiglitz, former Vice > > President and Chief Economist of the World Bank two years ago. I > > interviewed > > Mr Stiglitz for a small article regarding his childhood but our > discussions > > went way beyond that(Article link here : > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/telekids/story_8570674.asp ) > > During our meeting, Mr Stiglitz was savagely critical of some of the > World > > Bank's policies with reference to Asia. > > Mr Stiglitz has written extensively on issues surrounding the World > Bank's > > policies that may be helpful in understanding their stance on the global > > tiger trade and his personal stance on global warming and related issues. > > Many of his articles can be accessed here : > > ( http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/209/42796.html ) > > An > > article by Mr Stiglitz on global warming can be read here : > > http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1115-27.htm > > For a better understanding of World Bank economic policies that are > > relevant to the tiger trade situation, I would recommend the book > > *Stability > > with Growth: Macroeconomics, Liberalization, and Developme*nt (Initiative > > for Policy Dialogue Series C); by Joseph Eugene Stiglitz, Jose Antonio > > Ocampo, Shari Spiegel, Ricardo Ffrench-Davis, and Deepak Nayyar; Oxford > > University Press, 2006. > > There is a strong economic argument against the viability of tiger > farming > > as compared to the conservation, animal welfare and animal rights ones. > > Therefore these documents are worth perusing. > > Best wishes and kind regards, > > > > > > Joseph E. Stiglitz is especially well-known as a critic of the reigning > > international economic policies and the institutions that enforce them ˆ > > the > > International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the United States > Treasury > > Department. After a distinguished academic career on the faculty of MIT, > > Yale and Stanford, Stiglitz joined the Clinton administration in 1993 as > > member of the Council of Economic Advisors. He later was named the > > Council's > > Chairman. In 1997 he took the post of Senior Vice President and Chief > > Economist at the World Bank Though a consummate political insider, > Stiglitz > > grew increasingly disillusioned with the failures of neo-liberal policy > and > > began to voice his thinking in public speeches. Increasingly outspoken, > he > > eventually was ousted from his World Bank post, allegedly on orders from > US > > Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Since leaving the bank, Stiglitz has > > sharpened his criticism further, making embarrassing revelations about > the > > role of the IMF in the Russian loan scandal, among other things. In mid > > 2001, he joined faculty of Columbia University and on 10 October 2001, it > > was announced that he would be awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic > Science. > > > > This section contains articles about Stiglitz's stormy career at the > World > > Bank, texts of some of his speeches and policy papers, media interviews > and > > other materials. Of the many senior staff who have resigned in disgust > from > > the World Bank over the years, Stiglitz has provided us with a deep and > > intelligent critique. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Thanks for that Azam, so far I see nothing about the World Bank doing any Tiger Farming, but I read a lot of activist claims or headlines like ¡ÈWorld Bank's policies on tiger farming.¡É I am not a big fan of much past and present work done by the World Bank, but activists need to be fair in their work as well. So where are these World Bank Tiger Farms? Cheers, Jigs On 7/17/09 10:01 AM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 wrote: > Hi Jigs, > > Please find the following press release issued by the World Bank HQ in > Washington DC with regards to the recent stand taken by the organisation on > 'Tiger farming'. > > This was posted on AAPN but I am reposting it again. > > The contact details of Ms. Getanjali Chopra is there who is looking after this > matter. Maybe she can help you with more details. > > Cheers !! > > Azam > > > http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:21796440~pagePK:64 > 257043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html > > New Global Initiative Sets Out to Reverse Decline inTiger?Numbers > > Press Release:?No.2008/357/EXC? > ? > Contacts: > In Washington: > > World?Bank: > > Geetanjali Chopra: (202) 473 0243 > gchopra <gchopra > > National Zoo Public Affairs (202) 633-3055 > > > International?Tiger?Coalition: > > Sarah Janicke: (301) 442-3741 > > ??WASHINGTON, June 9, 2008?¨¡???A worldwide alliance oftiger?conservationists, > scientists and celebrities have joined forces with the?World?Bank?Group and > the Global Environment Facility (GEF) to help save wild tigers. > > ? > > Tiger?numbers have declined from more than 100,000 a century ago to around > 4,000 today. The decline is driven by a loss of prey and habitat due to > uncontrolled development and poaching for the black-market trade intiger?skins > and bones. > > ? > > " Nothing short of global action will bring back wild tigers, " said?Grace Ge > Gabriel,spokesperson for the InternationalTiger?Coalition (ITC). ¡ÈThe?ITC > applauds the?World?Bankfor focusing the eyes of the?world?on wild tigers and > their needs. " > > ? > > The health of the?tiger?population is an indicator of biodiversity and a > barometer of sustainability. Since tigers are at the top of the food chain, > the conservation of wild tigers also means the preservation of the habitats in > which they live and the prey populations that support them. > > ? > > " Tigers occupy only 7% of their historical range and about 40% less than they > did just a decade ago. Business-as-usual is not sustaining wild tigers today,¡É > said?John Seidensticker, Head, Conservation Ecology Center, Smithsonian's > National Zoo.???¡ÈAll signs point to an impending?tiger?range collapse.??I am > pleased and encouraged that the?World?Bank?and others are joining in our > collaborative effort to find the ways and means so that wild tigers and no > species are left behind in this time of unprecedented global economic > expansion that threatens biodiversity " ? > > ? > > The new?Tiger?Conservation Initiative, launched today at the Smithsonian¡Çs > National Zoo in Washington D.C., brings together many of the global experts > who have been studying the decline of?tiger?populations and the many national > and international NGOs which have been fighting to save tigers. > > ? > > " Just as with many of the other challenges of sustainability¡½such as climate > change, pandemic disease, or poverty¡½the crisis facing tigers overwhelms local > capabilities and transcends national boundaries, " said?World?Bank?Group > President?Robert B. Zoellick. " This is a problem that cannot be handled by > individual nations alone.??It requires an alliance of strong local commitment > backed by deep international support. " > > ? > > Harrison Ford,?board member of Conservation International, who is putting his > celebrity status behind thetiger?initiative said:??¡ÈBy committing to help wild > tigers, theWorld?Bank?is sounding its intention to be a global leader in > biodiversity conservation.??I commend this commitment and look forward to > seeing it in action.¡É > > ? > > The?Tiger?Conservation Initiative will start with a series of dialogues > in?tiger?range countries to find out what has worked locally to protect the > tigers. The?World?Bank?and its partners will assess the financing needs > of?tigerconservation and work with governments and the private sector to find > innovative funding sources and mobilize new resources for the species¡Ç > protection. > > ? > > " The countries in the range of the?tiger?are amongst the most important for > GEF globally in delivering global biodiversity benefits. By partnering with > them in a major effort to conserve quality habitat, this initiative will be > pursuing outcomes in conservation, ecosystem services, and livelihoods " > said?Monique Barbut, CEO and Chairman, Global Environment Facility. > > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Jigs Gaton <herojig wrote: >> Hi, can someone please point to a link that clearly defines the ¡Èrecent World >> Bank stand on Tiger farming¡É? I asked my wife, she works there, and all she >> knows is that she ¡Èheard something about it.¡É ?As one of the not-so ¡Èsenior >> staff who have resigned in disgust from the World Bank over the years¡É I¡Çd be >> interested and might be able to help decipher the gorp. Cheers, >> Jigs in Nepal >> >> >> On 7/16/09 2:15 PM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 >> <http://azam24x7 > > wrote: >> >>> I am in touch with a lot of eminent experts from India on wildlife and >>> veteran journalists with regards to the recent World Bank stand on Tiger >>> farming. >>> >>> Most experts in India believe that any conservation initiative by the World >>> Bank should be treated with skepticism. >>> Specially with regards to the World Bank policies and stand on Tiger Farming >>> the experts feel one has to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. >>> >>> Azam >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, < >>> journalistandanimals <http://journalistandanimals > > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> > Dear all, >>>> > ???????????There have been some discussions on World Bank's policies on >>>> > tiger farming and also related issues concerning global warming and the >>>> > concomitant role of individuals and organisations. In this regard, I >>>> would >>>> > like to state that I was able to discuss some of these issues(not all >>>> > though) during a meeting I had with Mr Joseph Stiglitz, former Vice >>>> > President and Chief Economist of the World Bank two years ago. I >>>> > interviewed >>>> > Mr Stiglitz for a small article regarding his childhood but our >>>> discussions >>>> > went way beyond that(Article link here : >>>> > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/telekids/story_8570674.asp ) >>>> > During our meeting, Mr Stiglitz was savagely critical of some of the >>>> World >>>> > Bank's policies with reference to Asia. >>>> > ?Mr Stiglitz has written extensively on issues surrounding the World >>>> Bank's >>>> > policies that may be helpful in understanding their stance on the global >>>> > tiger trade and his personal stance on global warming and related issues. >>>> > Many of his articles can be accessed here : >>>> > ( http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/209/42796.html ) >>>> > An >>>> > article by Mr Stiglitz on global warming can be read here : >>>> > http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1115-27.htm >>>> > ?For a better understanding of World Bank economic policies that are >>>> > relevant to the tiger trade situation, I would recommend the book >>>> > *Stability >>>> > with Growth: Macroeconomics, Liberalization, and Developme*nt (Initiative >>>> > for Policy Dialogue Series C); by Joseph Eugene Stiglitz, Jose Antonio >>>> > Ocampo, Shari Spiegel, Ricardo Ffrench-Davis, and Deepak Nayyar; Oxford >>>> > University Press, 2006. >>>> > ?There is a strong economic argument against the viability of tiger >>>> farming >>>> > as compared to the conservation, animal welfare and animal rights ones. >>>> > Therefore these documents are worth perusing. >>>> > ?Best wishes and kind regards, >>>> > >>>> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????? >>>> > Joseph E. Stiglitz is especially well-known as a critic of the reigning >>>> > international economic policies and the institutions that enforce them ¡° >>> >>>> > the >>>> > International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the United States >>>> Treasury >>>> > Department. After a distinguished academic career on the faculty of MIT, >>>> > Yale and Stanford, Stiglitz joined the Clinton administration in 1993 as >>>> > member of the Council of Economic Advisors. He later was named the >>>> > Council's >>>> > Chairman. In 1997 he took the post of Senior Vice President and Chief >>>> > Economist at the World Bank Though a consummate political insider, >>>> Stiglitz >>>> > grew increasingly disillusioned with the failures of neo-liberal policy >>>> and >>>> > began to voice his thinking in public speeches. Increasingly outspoken, >>>> he >>>> > eventually was ousted from his World Bank post, allegedly on orders from >>>> US >>>> > Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Since leaving the bank, Stiglitz has >>>> > sharpened his criticism further, making embarrassing revelations about >>>> the >>>> > role of the IMF in the Russian loan scandal, among other things. In mid >>>> > 2001, he joined faculty of Columbia University and on 10 October 2001, it >>>> > was announced that he would be awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic >>>> Science. >>>> > >>>> > This section contains articles about Stiglitz's stormy career at the >>>> World >>>> > Bank, texts of some of his speeches and policy papers, media interviews >>>> and >>>> > other materials. Of the many senior staff who have resigned in disgust >>>> from >>>> > the World Bank over the years, Stiglitz has provided us with a deep and >>>> > intelligent critique. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Dear Jigs, World Bank is not doing any Tiger Farming activity. They had taken a stand recently against tiger farming in some parts of the world. Please see the following website: http://www.globaltigerinitiative.org/ <http://www.globaltigerinitiative.org/> 2009/7/17 Jigs Gaton <herojig > Thanks for that Azam, so far I see nothing about the World Bank doing any > Tiger Farming, but I read a lot of activist claims or headlines like “World > Bank's policies on tiger farming.†I am not a big fan of much past and > present work done by the World Bank, but activists need to be fair in their > work as well. So where are these World Bank Tiger Farms? Cheers, > Jigs > > > On 7/17/09 10:01 AM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 wrote: > > Hi Jigs, > > Please find the following press release issued by the World Bank HQ in > Washington DC with regards to the recent stand taken by the organisation on > 'Tiger farming'. > > This was posted on AAPN but I am reposting it again. > > The contact details of Ms. Getanjali Chopra is there who is looking after > this matter. Maybe she can help you with more details. > > Cheers !! > > Azam > > > * > http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:21796440~pagePK:6425\ 7043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html > * > * > New Global Initiative Sets Out to Reverse Decline inTiger?Numbers > * > *Press Release:*?No.2008/357/EXC? > ? > *Contacts: > *In Washington: > > World?Bank: > > Geetanjali Chopra: (202) 473 0243 > gchopra <gchopra<gchopra> > > > National Zoo Public Affairs (202) 633-3055 > > > International?Tiger?Coalition: > > Sarah Janicke: (301) 442-3741 > > ??*WASHINGTON, June 9, 2008*?─???A worldwide alliance > oftiger?conservationists, scientists and celebrities have joined forces with > the?World?Bank?Group and the Global Environment Facility (GEF) to help save > wild tigers. > > ? > > Tiger?numbers have declined from more than 100,000 a century ago to around > 4,000 today. The decline is driven by a loss of prey and habitat due to > uncontrolled development and poaching for the black-market trade > intiger?skins and bones. > > ? > > " *Nothing short of global action will bring back wild tigers*, " said?*Grace > Ge Gabriel,*spokesperson for the InternationalTiger?Coalition (ITC). “*The?ITC > applauds the?World?Bankfor focusing the eyes of the?world?on wild tigers and > their needs*. " > > ? > > The health of the?tiger?population is an indicator of biodiversity and a > barometer of sustainability. Since tigers are at the top of the food chain, > the conservation of wild tigers also means the preservation of the habitats > in which they live and the prey populations that support them. > > ? > > " *Tigers occupy only 7% of their historical range and about 40% less than > they did just a decade ago. Business-as-usual is not sustaining wild tigers > today,†said*?*John Seidensticker*, Head, Conservation Ecology Center, > Smithsonian's National Zoo.???“*All signs point to an > impending?tiger?range collapse.??I am pleased and encouraged that > the?World?Bank?and others are joining in our collaborative effort to find > the ways and means so that wild tigers and no species are left behind in > this time of unprecedented global economic expansion that threatens > biodiversity* " ? > > ? > > The new?Tiger?Conservation Initiative, launched today at the Smithsonian’s > National Zoo in Washington D.C., brings together many of the global experts > who have been studying the decline of?tiger?populations and the many > national and international NGOs which have been fighting to save tigers. > > ? > > " *Just as with many of the other challenges of sustainability—such as > climate change, pandemic disease, or poverty—the crisis facing tigers > overwhelms local capabilities and transcends national boundaries*, " > said?World?Bank?Group President?*Robert B. Zoellick*. " *This is a problem > that cannot be handled by individual nations alone.??It requires an alliance > of strong local commitment backed by deep international support*. " > > ? > > *Harrison Ford,*?board member of Conservation International, who is > putting his celebrity status behind thetiger?initiative said:??“*By > committing to help wild tigers, theWorld?Bank?is sounding its intention to > be a global leader in biodiversity conservation.??I commend this commitment > and look forward to seeing it in action*.†> > ? > > The?Tiger?Conservation Initiative will start with a series of dialogues > in?tiger?range countries to find out what has worked locally to protect the > tigers. The?World?Bank?and its partners will assess the financing needs > of?tigerconservation and work with governments and the private sector to > find innovative funding sources and mobilize new resources for the species’ > protection. > > ? > > * " The countries in the range of the?tiger**?are amongst the most important > for GEF globally in delivering global biodiversity benefits. By partnering > with them in a major effort to conserve quality habitat, this initiative > will be pursuing outcomes in conservation, ecosystem services, and > livelihoods* " said?*Monique Barbut*, CEO and Chairman, Global Environment > Facility. > > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Jigs Gaton <herojig wrote: > > Hi, can someone please point to a link that clearly defines the > “recent World Bank stand on Tiger farming� I asked my wife, she works > there, and all she knows is that she “heard something about it.†?As one of > the not-so “senior staff who have resigned in disgust from the World Bank > over the years†I’d be interested and might be able to help decipher the > gorp. Cheers, > Jigs in Nepal > > > On 7/16/09 2:15 PM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 < > http://azam24x7 > > wrote: > > I am in touch with a lot of eminent experts from India on wildlife and > veteran journalists with regards to the recent World Bank stand on Tiger > farming. > > Most experts in India believe that any conservation initiative by the World > Bank should be treated with skepticism. > Specially with regards to the World Bank policies and stand on Tiger > Farming > the experts feel one has to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. > > Azam > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, < > journalistandanimals <http://journalistandanimals > > > wrote: > > > Dear all, > > ???????????There have been some discussions on World Bank's policies on > > tiger farming and also related issues concerning global warming and the > > concomitant role of individuals and organisations. In this regard, I > would > > like to state that I was able to discuss some of these issues(not all > > though) during a meeting I had with Mr Joseph Stiglitz, former Vice > > President and Chief Economist of the World Bank two years ago. I > > interviewed > > Mr Stiglitz for a small article regarding his childhood but our > discussions > > went way beyond that(Article link here : > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/telekids/story_8570674.asp ) > > During our meeting, Mr Stiglitz was savagely critical of some of the > World > > Bank's policies with reference to Asia. > > ?Mr Stiglitz has written extensively on issues surrounding the World > Bank's > > policies that may be helpful in understanding their stance on the global > > tiger trade and his personal stance on global warming and related issues. > > Many of his articles can be accessed here : > > ( http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/209/42796.html ) > > An > > article by Mr Stiglitz on global warming can be read here : > > http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1115-27.htm > > ?For a better understanding of World Bank economic policies that are > > relevant to the tiger trade situation, I would recommend the book > > *Stability > > with Growth: Macroeconomics, Liberalization, and Developme*nt (Initiative > > for Policy Dialogue Series C); by Joseph Eugene Stiglitz, Jose Antonio > > Ocampo, Shari Spiegel, Ricardo Ffrench-Davis, and Deepak Nayyar; Oxford > > University Press, 2006. > > ?There is a strong economic argument against the viability of tiger > farming > > as compared to the conservation, animal welfare and animal rights ones. > > Therefore these documents are worth perusing. > > ?Best wishes and kind regards, > > > > ?????????????????????????????????????????????? > > Joseph E. Stiglitz is especially well-known as a critic of the reigning > > international economic policies and the institutions that enforce them ˆ > > > the > > International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the United States > Treasury > > Department. After a distinguished academic career on the faculty of MIT, > > Yale and Stanford, Stiglitz joined the Clinton administration in 1993 as > > member of the Council of Economic Advisors. He later was named the > > Council's > > Chairman. In 1997 he took the post of Senior Vice President and Chief > > Economist at the World Bank Though a consummate political insider, > Stiglitz > > grew increasingly disillusioned with the failures of neo-liberal policy > and > > began to voice his thinking in public speeches. Increasingly outspoken, > he > > eventually was ousted from his World Bank post, allegedly on orders from > US > > Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Since leaving the bank, Stiglitz has > > sharpened his criticism further, making embarrassing revelations about > the > > role of the IMF in the Russian loan scandal, among other things. In mid > > 2001, he joined faculty of Columbia University and on 10 October 2001, it > > was announced that he would be awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic > Science. > > > > This section contains articles about Stiglitz's stormy career at the > World > > Bank, texts of some of his speeches and policy papers, media interviews > and > > other materials. Of the many senior staff who have resigned in disgust > from > > the World Bank over the years, Stiglitz has provided us with a deep and > > intelligent critique. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Thx Shub, that¡Çs a relief. I hope activists who are linking Worldbank + Tiger Farming read this. I was thinking that we would soon have tigers where they are not needed and no tigers where they belong, considering the WB¡Çs track record on farming in general. But a careful eye is needed no matter what the WB is up to in regards to tigers, as if history repeats, they might all wind up under water (see WB + Large Dam Projects in India). Cheers, Jigs in Nepal Ps. I will tell the shri mati this as she works @ the wb and is clueless. On 7/17/09 11:41 AM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 wrote: > Dear Jigs, > > World Bank is not doing any Tiger Farming activity. > They had taken a stand recently against tiger farming in some parts of the > world. > Please see the following website: > > http://www.globaltigerinitiative.org/ > <http://www.globaltigerinitiative.org/> > > 2009/7/17 Jigs Gaton <herojig >> Thanks for that Azam, so far I see nothing about the World Bank doing any >> Tiger Farming, but I read a lot of activist claims or headlines like ¡ÈWorld >> Bank's policies on tiger farming.¡É I am not a big fan of much past and >> present work done by the World Bank, but activists need to be fair in their >> work as well. So where are these World Bank Tiger Farms? Cheers, >> Jigs >> >> >> On 7/17/09 10:01 AM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 >> <http://azam24x7 > > wrote: >> >>> Hi Jigs, >>> >>> Please find the following press release issued by the World Bank HQ in >>> Washington DC with regards to the recent stand taken by the organisation on >>> 'Tiger farming'. >>> >>> This was posted on AAPN but I am reposting it again. >>> >>> The contact details of Ms. Getanjali Chopra is there who is looking after >>> this matter. Maybe she can help you with more details. >>> >>> Cheers !! >>> >>> Azam >>> >>> >>> http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:21796440~pagePK: >>> 64257043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html >>> >>> New Global Initiative Sets Out to Reverse Decline inTiger?Numbers >>> >>> Press Release:?No.2008/357/EXC? >>> ? >>> Contacts: >>> In Washington: >>> >>> World?Bank: >>> >>> Geetanjali Chopra: (202) 473 0243 >>> gchopra <http://gchopra (AT) worldbank (DOT) org> >>> <gchopra >>> >>> National Zoo Public Affairs (202) 633-3055 >>> >>> >>> International?Tiger?Coalition: >>> >>> Sarah Janicke: (301) 442-3741 >>> >>> ??WASHINGTON, June 9, 2008?¨¡???A worldwide alliance >>> oftiger?conservationists, scientists and celebrities have joined forces with >>> the?World?Bank?Group and the Global Environment Facility (GEF) to help save >>> wild tigers. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Tiger?numbers have declined from more than 100,000 a century ago to around >>> 4,000 today. The decline is driven by a loss of prey and habitat due to >>> uncontrolled development and poaching for the black-market trade >>> intiger?skins and bones. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> " Nothing short of global action will bring back wild tigers, " said?Grace Ge >>> Gabriel,spokesperson for the InternationalTiger?Coalition (ITC). ¡ÈThe?ITC >>> applauds the?World?Bankfor focusing the eyes of the?world?on wild tigers and >>> their needs. " >>> >>> ? >>> >>> The health of the?tiger?population is an indicator of biodiversity and a >>> barometer of sustainability. Since tigers are at the top of the food chain, >>> the conservation of wild tigers also means the preservation of the habitats >>> in which they live and the prey populations that support them. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> " Tigers occupy only 7% of their historical range and about 40% less than >>> they did just a decade ago. Business-as-usual is not sustaining wild tigers >>> today,¡É said?John Seidensticker, Head, Conservation Ecology Center, >>> Smithsonian's National Zoo.???¡ÈAll signs point to an impending?tiger?range >>> collapse.??I am pleased and encouraged that the?World?Bank?and others are >>> joining in our collaborative effort to find the ways and means so that wild >>> tigers and no species are left behind in this time of unprecedented global >>> economic expansion that threatens biodiversity " ? >>> >>> ? >>> >>> The new?Tiger?Conservation Initiative, launched today at the Smithsonian¡Çs >>> National Zoo in Washington D.C., brings together many of the global experts >>> who have been studying the decline of?tiger?populations and the many >>> national and international NGOs which have been fighting to save tigers. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> " Just as with many of the other challenges of sustainability¡½such as climate >>> change, pandemic disease, or poverty¡½the crisis facing tigers overwhelms >>> local capabilities and transcends national boundaries, " >>> said?World?Bank?Group President?Robert B. Zoellick. " This is a problem that >>> cannot be handled by individual nations alone.??It requires an alliance of >>> strong local commitment backed by deep international support. " >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Harrison Ford,?board member of Conservation International, who is putting >>> his celebrity status behind thetiger?initiative said:??¡ÈBy committing to >>> help wild tigers, theWorld?Bank?is sounding its intention to be a global >>> leader in biodiversity conservation.??I commend this commitment and look >>> forward to seeing it in action.¡É >>> >>> ? >>> >>> The?Tiger?Conservation Initiative will start with a series of dialogues >>> in?tiger?range countries to find out what has worked locally to protect the >>> tigers. The?World?Bank?and its partners will assess the financing needs >>> of?tigerconservation and work with governments and the private sector to >>> find innovative funding sources and mobilize new resources for the species¡Ç >>> protection. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> " The countries in the range of the?tiger?are amongst the most important for >>> GEF globally in delivering global biodiversity benefits. By partnering with >>> them in a major effort to conserve quality habitat, this initiative will be >>> pursuing outcomes in conservation, ecosystem services, and livelihoods " >>> said?Monique Barbut, CEO and Chairman, Global Environment Facility. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Jigs Gaton <herojig >>> <http://herojig > > wrote: >>>> Hi, can someone please point to a link that clearly defines the >>>> ¡Èrecent World Bank stand on Tiger farming¡É? I asked my wife, she works >>>> there, and all she knows is that she ¡Èheard something about it.¡É ?As one of >>>> the not-so ¡Èsenior staff who have resigned in disgust from the World Bank >>>> over the years¡É I¡Çd be interested and might be able to help decipher the >>>> gorp. Cheers, >>>> Jigs in Nepal >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/16/09 2:15 PM, " AZAM SIDDIQUI " <azam24x7 >>>> <http://azam24x7 > <http://azam24x7 > > wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am in touch with a lot of eminent experts from India on wildlife and >>>>> veteran journalists with regards to the recent World Bank stand on Tiger >>>>> farming. >>>>> >>>>> Most experts in India believe that any conservation initiative by the >>>>> World >>>>> Bank should be treated with skepticism. >>>>> Specially with regards to the World Bank policies and stand on Tiger >>>>> Farming >>>>> the experts feel one has to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. >>>>> >>>>> Azam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM, < >>>>> journalistandanimals <http://journalistandanimals > >>>>> <http://journalistandanimals > > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> > Dear all, >>>>>> > ???????????There have been some discussions on World Bank's policies on >>>>>> > tiger farming and also related issues concerning global warming and the >>>>>> > concomitant role of individuals and organisations. In this regard, I >>>>>> would >>>>>> > like to state that I was able to discuss some of these issues(not all >>>>>> > though) during a meeting I had with Mr Joseph Stiglitz, former Vice >>>>>> > President and Chief Economist of the World Bank two years ago. I >>>>>> > interviewed >>>>>> > Mr Stiglitz for a small article regarding his childhood but our >>>>>> discussions >>>>>> > went way beyond that(Article link here : >>>>>> > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/telekids/story_8570674.asp ) >>>>>> > During our meeting, Mr Stiglitz was savagely critical of some of the >>>>>> World >>>>>> > Bank's policies with reference to Asia. >>>>>> > ?Mr Stiglitz has written extensively on issues surrounding the World >>>>>> Bank's >>>>>> > policies that may be helpful in understanding their stance on the >>>>>> global >>>>>> > tiger trade and his personal stance on global warming and related >>>>>> issues. >>>>>> > Many of his articles can be accessed here : >>>>>> > ( http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/209/42796.html ) >>>>>> > An >>>>>> > article by Mr Stiglitz on global warming can be read here : >>>>>> > http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1115-27.htm >>>>>> > ?For a better understanding of World Bank economic policies that are >>>>>> > relevant to the tiger trade situation, I would recommend the book >>>>>> > *Stability >>>>>> > with Growth: Macroeconomics, Liberalization, and Developme*nt >>>>>> (Initiative >>>>>> > for Policy Dialogue Series C); by Joseph Eugene Stiglitz, Jose Antonio >>>>>> > Ocampo, Shari Spiegel, Ricardo Ffrench-Davis, and Deepak Nayyar; Oxford >>>>>> > University Press, 2006. >>>>>> > ?There is a strong economic argument against the viability of tiger >>>>>> farming >>>>>> > as compared to the conservation, animal welfare and animal rights ones. >>>>>> > Therefore these documents are worth perusing. >>>>>> > ?Best wishes and kind regards, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????? >>>>>> > Joseph E. Stiglitz is especially well-known as a critic of the reigning >>>>>> > international economic policies and the institutions that enforce them ¡° >>>>> >>>>>> > the >>>>>> > International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the United States >>>>>> Treasury >>>>>> > Department. After a distinguished academic career on the faculty of >>>>>> MIT, >>>>>> > Yale and Stanford, Stiglitz joined the Clinton administration in 1993 >>>>>> as >>>>>> > member of the Council of Economic Advisors. He later was named the >>>>>> > Council's >>>>>> > Chairman. In 1997 he took the post of Senior Vice President and Chief >>>>>> > Economist at the World Bank Though a consummate political insider, >>>>>> Stiglitz >>>>>> > grew increasingly disillusioned with the failures of neo-liberal policy >>>>>> and >>>>>> > began to voice his thinking in public speeches. Increasingly outspoken, >>>>>> he >>>>>> > eventually was ousted from his World Bank post, allegedly on orders >>>>>> from US >>>>>> > Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. Since leaving the bank, Stiglitz has >>>>>> > sharpened his criticism further, making embarrassing revelations about >>>>>> the >>>>>> > role of the IMF in the Russian loan scandal, among other things. In mid >>>>>> > 2001, he joined faculty of Columbia University and on 10 October 2001, >>>>>> it >>>>>> > was announced that he would be awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic >>>>>> Science. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > This section contains articles about Stiglitz's stormy career at the >>>>>> World >>>>>> > Bank, texts of some of his speeches and policy papers, media interviews >>>>>> and >>>>>> > other materials. Of the many senior staff who have resigned in disgust >>>>>> from >>>>>> > the World Bank over the years, Stiglitz has provided us with a deep and >>>>>> > intelligent critique. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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