Elephant Family standpoint on elephant issues as discussed on Saturday, 28th February, 2009

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Well, this is my submission on the meeting between me and my

friend who is close to Elephant Family in London(she requested me not to

name her on AAPN) on Saturday. The meeting as I expected went off smoothly

without a hitch. We exchanged views cordially and several topics came up and

elephant polo was discussed too. She gave me a lot of information that

Elephant Family has shared with her recently and I am placing them one by

one in the hope that it clears some way for better understanding. At the

outset, I made it very clear that this meeting in no way diminished my

opposition to elephant polo and also that I was speaking only in an

individual capacity and not as a representative of all elephant polo

opponents.

I am placing the points made by Elephant Family first as enumerated by my

friend and submitting my rejoinders in response:

 

1) Elephant Family did not organize the elephant polo match in Jaipur.

It was organized by Cartier and Mark Shand represented Cartier and not

Elephant Family. They only provided free veterinary care for the polo

playing animals.

 

 

 

2) Elephant Family would appreciate it if the opponents of Elephant Polo

could acknowledge the good work they are doing in Jaipur with Help In

Suffering..

 

 

 

3) Mark Shand is entitled to a ‘considered position’ on elephant polo.

 

 

 

4) Elephant Family has raised a lot of money for saving elephants in

Asia.

 

 

 

5) Elephant Family does not have an official stance on stray dogs and an

Elephant Family representative has made it clear that Mark Shand’s comments

on killing and beating and eating dogs are ‘indeed disagreeable.' Bhaiti,

Mark Shand’s dog, was a “beloved companion” and “he was absolutely

devastated when he passed away in 2004.”

 

 

 

6) Elephant Family would like to explore options for mutual cooperation

on some issues with opponentsof elephant polo.

 

 

 

7) Elephant Family and Mark Shand have been subject to vicious threats

and abusive emails and telephone calls from people identifying themselves as

elephant polo opponents who have vowed to physically assault him and tear

down his office in Gower Street. Would I be in a position to ask AAPN

members to refrain from such attacks and threats?

 

 

 

8) Elephant Family is currently preparing a set of policy documents on

different elephant issues that would include their position on elephants in

captivity.

 

 

 

9) It is time to move on from the Cartier event in 2006 since it was a

one time event. There are other issues to address.

 

 

 

10) Elephant Family would prefer to see “a lively debate” on elephant polo

without rancour or malice.

 

 

 

My personal responses :

 

1) I would love to believe this but media reports and the official

Cartier statement made before the match suggests otherwise. The policy

statement on elephant polo as circulated by Elephant Family clearly mentions

the name of Mark Shand as a defender of Elephant Polo as a trustee of

Elephant Family. The Cartier statement, a copy of which is available on the

anti elephant polo website clearly says the match was organised in

partnership with Elephant Family. So right now I am not convinced that

Elephant Family did not organize the elephant polo match. If they are coming

up with a new policy document, it would be interesting to see their stance

on elephant polo after the Cartier match.

 

 

 

2) I have already acknowledged the good work of Elephant Family in

Jaipur and elsewhere and would not mind doing so again. I however cannot

agree to the notion of making elephants playing games for fundraising under

any circumstances, it is totally unacceptable. I would also appreciate it if

Elephant Family acknowledges the good work of opponents of elephant polo to

save elephants. Mark Shand has gone on record to say that the opponents of

elephant polo have done precious little to save the animal. Mark Shand needs

to check his facts before making such statements. I would gladly give him

proof that shows that many of the organizations that opposed elephant polo

have done sterling work to help elephants in India and elsewhere. Such

blanket statements from Mark Shand have not really encouraged better

understanding between opponents and proponents of elephant polo. The anti

elephant polo website devotes substantial space to pro elephant polo

arguments. Mark Shand and Elephant Family should take note of this too.

 

 

 

3) The opposition to elephant polo as outlined on

www.stopelephantpolo.com is also a considered position. We have to agree to

disagree on this.

 

 

 

4) Agreed, but it would be better to raise money to save animals by not

making them play games and perform circus acts. The opponents have also

raised massive amounts to save elephants in India and Africa. Mark Shand

should be aware of this.

 

 

 

5) Elephant Family’s statement on Mark Shand’s abusive and vicious

comments on dogs is the most positive development in this whole exchange. By

distancing themselves from his stated position to kill all stray dogs they

have acted responsibly. It also puts an end to the debate on whether Mark

Shand was correctly quoted or misquoted regarding his comments on dogs in

“Queen of The Elephants’ and ‘The River Dog.’ The quotes were and are

perfectly placed, some of them are open to interpretation, but the quotes on

dogs are not and not the one where he speaks about jabbing a spear into the

leg of Tara, his elephant. But I thoroughly appreciate that Ms Ruth Powys,

Operational Director of Elephant Family, has gone on record and stated

that Mark Shand's views on dogs are " indeed disagreeable.” Thank you Ms

Powys for an honest admission, my compliments. Many others will appreciate

her honesty on this issue too. It is a huge relief to note that Elephant

family is not condoning cruelty to dogs.

 

 

 

6) As an elephant polo opponent, I would also like to seek mutual

cooperation on other issues like culling, habitat and corridor protection,

captivity and other issues in India and elsewhere in Asia. Also ivory trade.

 

 

 

7) If Elephant Family has been subject to threats and abuse, that is

unfortunate. However they are not attributable to any particular campaigner.

The opposition to elephant polo encompasses a wide spectrum of animal

organizations, some are more militant than others. I could of course, issue

a statement on AAPN asking people to refrain from threatening Elephant

Family and Mark Shand, but to my knowledge no message on AAPN has threatened

or abused Elephant Family. AAPN is a moderated group where such initiatives

on elephant polo opposition have not been encouraged. I have also invited

members of Elephant Family to to AAPN to better understand the

opposition to elephant polo. Here, I want to add that I have personally

received threats for opposing elephant polo in the form of anonymous phone

calls so maybe Elephant Family would consider encouraging their supporters

to refrain from such activities. It would be much appreciated by all

opponents of elephant polo. If someone wants to talk to me on the phone

regarding elephant polo, he need not be anonymous for I have nothing to

hide.

 

 

 

8) We are all looking forward to perusing Elephant Family’s policies on

elephants on different issues. This is a positive step.

 

 

 

9) It is indeed time to move on from the Cartier event but it has to be

stated for the record, that it was an act of animal abuse and opposition to

elephant polo and circuses remains steadfast and resolute. Elephant polo has

been and is being opposed wherever it is taking place, it is an important

animal cruelty issue for campaigners like me. I also remain sceptical of

Cartier’s human rights record and therefore their intentions to promote

animal welfare in Jaipur and elsewhere. Corporate social responsibility must

be considered before any endorsement of any charitable activity.

 

 

 

10) The suggestion of “a lively debate” on elephant polo was suggested by me

and others two years ago when this issue first got noticed. It was never

taken up by Elephant Family or Mark Shand personally. Had it been seriously

considered at the time, a lot of vitriol could have been avoided. Elephant

polo has been debated very extensively on AAPN and on other internet forums.

Nevertheless, it would be worthwhile debating it again if Elephant Family is

willing to engage in it directly. AAPN could be one forum. Better still, a

conference, where an Elephant Family proponent of elephant polo speaks for

as long as he/she likes in favour of the event and allows an opponent to

respond. I recognise some elephant polo opponents hold a different view and

respect their standpoint.

 

 

 

My friend will forward this response of mine to Elephant Family. I look

forward to their response and any other unresolved issues that may crop up

will be gladly addressed.

 

My friend has obtained a lot of literature from Elephant Family on their

work, if anyone is interested to read them and would like me to share them,

I am happy to.

 

 

 

Hope this clears some issues that have been at the heart of the tussle

between opponents of elephant polo and Elephant Family and Mark Shand. If

any of you want to clarify some other issues, please do contact them

directly and address your concerns on AAPN.

 

 

 

Many thanks.

 

 

 

Best wishes and kind regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[From Moderator:

1. Thank you, Shubho, for this important contribution.

2. In para 7 of the defence of Elephant Family, there is the complaint of

" vicious threats and abusive emails and telephone calls " ; and in para 7 of your

riposte you state, " AAPN is a moderated group where such initiatives on elephant

polo opposition have not been encouraged. " It is true that posts calling for

abusive behaviour would be rejected by the Moderator - but I can assure everyone

that no such post has ever been sent to AAPN.

John.]

[Guest guest]

Dear Shubho,

 

Good to read the mail and indeed thanks for your initiative in helping

'Elephant Family' with their stand on the above issue.

 

It is certainly going to help this movement if 'Elephant Family' joins the

anti-elephant polo movement.

It cannot come at a better time than now.

As you can see even AWBI which had given a go ahead to the Cartier Cup Polo

in 2006 has done a complete U-turn and issued a caution to the very

government of Rajasthan which was a party to organising the gala event in

2006.

There was already a court case regarding 'Elephant Polo' in Rajasthan High

Court filed on behalf of PFA by Mr. Naresh Kadyan and now with PETA India

serving the legal notice through eminent advocate Raj Panjwani, things are

very much in our favour and the day is not far that elephant polo and other

events involving animals in entertainment could be a thing of the past.

And yes, if 'Elephant Family' too feels that such events and activities hold

no conservational values and distances itself from further being party to

them, it is just wonderful for us.

It would ensure that we have another voice joining a family which has stood

united against elephant polo.

 

My knowledge of 'Elephants' and 'Elephant Welfare' is extremely poor, and

this is the reason why I look up to those who have spent lifetimes studying

both the animal and the welfare whenever there is a crisis involving either.

So I leave it to you so that you may forward the views of 'Elephant Family'

to the experts.

 

As regards, the abusive hate mails and telephone calls.

I think it is best if someone can assign an investigative agency to probe

the matter.

Now a days it is not too difficult to trace the sender which can zero down

from the country to the town/ village to the very computer/ laptop where

such emails have originated from.

Ironically yesterday I replied to Ms Ruth Powys I am not sure if that is the

real Ruth Powys).

I do not have anything to hide and so I am copying her mail and my response

for AAPN members.

There have been a lot of gentlemen and ladies introducing them as animal

people who have showed incredible interest and sympathy in the kind of work

I have been doing in the past, some have gone to the extent

of labelling fancy adjectives to provoke me as well.

But it would be stupid of me to enter into a discussion or debate without

confirming the identity of the person. So I just ignore

them. There are better things I got to do than waste time and energy in

getting mentally challenged over hate mails.

 

But yes, I would still say that it is best to take professional IT

assistance from an agency and sorting out such issues before making

allegations. It is a little juvenile to do so in a forum such as AAPN.

 

I personally do not acknowledge any postings/ emails/ phone calls to qualify

for a response or reaction unless the identity of the sender is known.

 

One may note that all the statements/ comments/ advice on the website:

http://www.stopelephantpolo.com bears the name and email of the sender with

their consent and this is what has been the reason that today we have been able

to make such wonderful progress.

 

If it was any Tom, Dick or Harry or for that matter or a dozen of fake/

anonymous people crying out loud 'STOP ELEPHANT POLO' do you think this

movement would have been taken seriously by any corner of the society??

 

Lastly I personally do never respond to any such hate mails, but I had to do

so when last night I saw a dozen of emails from Ruth Powys.

I only pray that having replied to that mail it turns out to be the real Ruth

Powys and not someone who has lured me into a spam world.

 

regards,

 

Azam

 

 

 

 

 

<azam24x7toRuth Powys <ruth.powys

dateMon, Mar 2, 2009 at 5:50 PMsubjectRe: FW: ELEPHANT TORTURE FAMILY!!

mailed-bygmail.com

hide details 5:50 PM (15 hours ago)

Reply

Dear Ruth,

This is the ONLY email which I decided to open from a series the mails you

forwarded to me.

Reason being it all went to my spam mail box and I still do not know if I am

writing to the real Ruth Powys or in the process have infected my email id

by opening a spam.

 

There is no doubt that someone is playing a prank on you and others.

 

I do not know if I did the right thing by opening this mail but certainly

this is and any other messages that have been forwarded by you (I have seen

the 1st few words and have not opened the same) seen to contain vulgarity

and indecent matter.

I have no idea who is generating them.

 

With due respect to the work 'Elephant Family' has been doing I do not have

anything against exchanging emails etc in the interest of animal work.

 

You wrote:

>I would be grateful if you could ask your group to kindly refrain from the

vile language and personal attacks<

 

I do not think that there is anybody I know who would indulge in such cheap

tactics of attacking someone anonymously or in disguise.

 

Having said this, I appreciate you contacting me with the forwarded mails

(although I have opened just this one, also lucky I checked by spam mail

box, as all of them were piled up here).

 

Best wishes,

 

Azam Siddiqui

 

- Hide quoted text -

 

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 5:03 AM, Ruth Powys <ruth.powys

wrote:

 

> Dear Azam,

>

> I would like to draw your attention to the emails i, and each member of the

> elephant family team, have recieved over the weekend, which I will be

> forwarding on to you shortly. Apologies in advance for polluting your in

> box, but after two and a half years of this filth, I really have had enough

> and very much want to open lines of communication with you and

> so we can conclude and move on.

>

> I'm sure you do not condone the approach taken, and I would be grateful if

> you could ask your group to kindly refrain from the vile language and

> personal attacks.

>

>

> With best wishes,

>

> Ruth

>

>

> Mariam Bevan [mariambevan <mariambevan]

> Sat 28/02/2009 10:17

> Ruth Powys; Edwina Kinsella-Bevan; Carly Vincent; Jo Cary-Elwes; Mary

> Powys; Marie Chambers

> Cc: macshand; macshand

> ELEPHANT TORTURE FAMILY!!

>

>

>

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 10:47 PM, <

journalistandanimals wrote:

 

> Dear all,

> Well, this is my submission on the meeting between me and my

> friend who is close to Elephant Family in London(she requested me not to

> name her on AAPN) on Saturday. The meeting as I expected went off smoothly

> without a hitch. We exchanged views cordially and several topics came up

> and

> elephant polo was discussed too. She gave me a lot of information that

> Elephant Family has shared with her recently and I am placing them one by

> one in the hope that it clears some way for better understanding. At the

> outset, I made it very clear that this meeting in no way diminished my

> opposition to elephant polo and also that I was speaking only in an

> individual capacity and not as a representative of all elephant polo

> opponents.

> I am placing the points made by Elephant Family first as enumerated by my

> friend and submitting my rejoinders in response:

>

> 1) Elephant Family did not organize the elephant polo match in Jaipur.

> It was organized by Cartier and Mark Shand represented Cartier and not

> Elephant Family. They only provided free veterinary care for the polo

> playing animals.

>

>

>

> 2) Elephant Family would appreciate it if the opponents of Elephant

> Polo

> could acknowledge the good work they are doing in Jaipur with Help In

> Suffering..

>

>

>

> 3) Mark Shand is entitled to a ‘considered position’ on elephant polo.

>

>

>

> 4) Elephant Family has raised a lot of money for saving elephants in

> Asia.

>

>

>

> 5) Elephant Family does not have an official stance on stray dogs and

> an

> Elephant Family representative has made it clear that Mark Shand’s comments

> on killing and beating and eating dogs are ‘indeed disagreeable.' Bhaiti,

> Mark Shand’s dog, was a “beloved companion” and “he was absolutely

> devastated when he passed away in 2004.”

>

>

>

> 6) Elephant Family would like to explore options for mutual cooperation

> on some issues with opponentsof elephant polo.

>

>

>

> 7) Elephant Family and Mark Shand have been subject to vicious threats

> and abusive emails and telephone calls from people identifying themselves

> as

> elephant polo opponents who have vowed to physically assault him and tear

> down his office in Gower Street. Would I be in a position to ask AAPN

> members to refrain from such attacks and threats?

>

>

>

> 8) Elephant Family is currently preparing a set of policy documents on

> different elephant issues that would include their position on elephants in

> captivity.

>

>

>

> 9) It is time to move on from the Cartier event in 2006 since it was a

> one time event. There are other issues to address.

>

>

>

> 10) Elephant Family would prefer to see “a lively debate” on elephant polo

> without rancour or malice.

>

>

>

> My personal responses :

>

> 1) I would love to believe this but media reports and the official

> Cartier statement made before the match suggests otherwise. The policy

> statement on elephant polo as circulated by Elephant Family clearly

> mentions

> the name of Mark Shand as a defender of Elephant Polo as a trustee of

> Elephant Family. The Cartier statement, a copy of which is available on the

> anti elephant polo website clearly says the match was organised in

> partnership with Elephant Family. So right now I am not convinced that

> Elephant Family did not organize the elephant polo match. If they are

> coming

> up with a new policy document, it would be interesting to see their stance

> on elephant polo after the Cartier match.

>

>

>

> 2) I have already acknowledged the good work of Elephant Family in

> Jaipur and elsewhere and would not mind doing so again. I however cannot

> agree to the notion of making elephants playing games for fundraising under

> any circumstances, it is totally unacceptable. I would also appreciate it

> if

> Elephant Family acknowledges the good work of opponents of elephant polo to

> save elephants. Mark Shand has gone on record to say that the opponents of

> elephant polo have done precious little to save the animal. Mark Shand

> needs

> to check his facts before making such statements. I would gladly give him

> proof that shows that many of the organizations that opposed elephant polo

> have done sterling work to help elephants in India and elsewhere. Such

> blanket statements from Mark Shand have not really encouraged better

> understanding between opponents and proponents of elephant polo. The anti

> elephant polo website devotes substantial space to pro elephant polo

> arguments. Mark Shand and Elephant Family should take note of this too.

>

>

>

> 3) The opposition to elephant polo as outlined on

> www.stopelephantpolo.com is also a considered position. We have to agree

> to

> disagree on this.

>

>

>

> 4) Agreed, but it would be better to raise money to save animals by not

> making them play games and perform circus acts. The opponents have also

> raised massive amounts to save elephants in India and Africa. Mark Shand

> should be aware of this.

>

>

>

> 5) Elephant Family’s statement on Mark Shand’s abusive and vicious

> comments on dogs is the most positive development in this whole exchange.

> By

> distancing themselves from his stated position to kill all stray dogs they

> have acted responsibly. It also puts an end to the debate on whether Mark

> Shand was correctly quoted or misquoted regarding his comments on dogs in

> “Queen of The Elephants’ and ‘The River Dog.’ The quotes were and are

> perfectly placed, some of them are open to interpretation, but the quotes

> on

> dogs are not and not the one where he speaks about jabbing a spear into the

> leg of Tara, his elephant. But I thoroughly appreciate that Ms Ruth Powys,

> Operational Director of Elephant Family, has gone on record and stated

> that Mark Shand's views on dogs are " indeed disagreeable.” Thank you Ms

> Powys for an honest admission, my compliments. Many others will appreciate

> her honesty on this issue too. It is a huge relief to note that Elephant

> family is not condoning cruelty to dogs.

>

>

>

> 6) As an elephant polo opponent, I would also like to seek mutual

> cooperation on other issues like culling, habitat and corridor protection,

> captivity and other issues in India and elsewhere in Asia. Also ivory

> trade.

>

>

>

> 7) If Elephant Family has been subject to threats and abuse, that is

> unfortunate. However they are not attributable to any particular

> campaigner.

> The opposition to elephant polo encompasses a wide spectrum of animal

> organizations, some are more militant than others. I could of course, issue

> a statement on AAPN asking people to refrain from threatening Elephant

> Family and Mark Shand, but to my knowledge no message on AAPN has

> threatened

> or abused Elephant Family. AAPN is a moderated group where such initiatives

> on elephant polo opposition have not been encouraged. I have also invited

> members of Elephant Family to to AAPN to better understand the

> opposition to elephant polo. Here, I want to add that I have personally

> received threats for opposing elephant polo in the form of anonymous phone

> calls so maybe Elephant Family would consider encouraging their supporters

> to refrain from such activities. It would be much appreciated by all

> opponents of elephant polo. If someone wants to talk to me on the phone

> regarding elephant polo, he need not be anonymous for I have nothing to

> hide.

>

>

>

> 8) We are all looking forward to perusing Elephant Family’s policies on

> elephants on different issues. This is a positive step.

>

>

>

> 9) It is indeed time to move on from the Cartier event but it has to be

> stated for the record, that it was an act of animal abuse and opposition to

> elephant polo and circuses remains steadfast and resolute. Elephant polo

> has

> been and is being opposed wherever it is taking place, it is an important

> animal cruelty issue for campaigners like me. I also remain sceptical of

> Cartier’s human rights record and therefore their intentions to promote

> animal welfare in Jaipur and elsewhere. Corporate social responsibility

> must

> be considered before any endorsement of any charitable activity.

>

>

>

> 10) The suggestion of “a lively debate” on elephant polo was suggested by

> me

> and others two years ago when this issue first got noticed. It was never

> taken up by Elephant Family or Mark Shand personally. Had it been seriously

> considered at the time, a lot of vitriol could have been avoided. Elephant

> polo has been debated very extensively on AAPN and on other internet

> forums.

> Nevertheless, it would be worthwhile debating it again if Elephant Family

> is

> willing to engage in it directly. AAPN could be one forum. Better still, a

> conference, where an Elephant Family proponent of elephant polo speaks for

> as long as he/she likes in favour of the event and allows an opponent to

> respond. I recognise some elephant polo opponents hold a different view and

> respect their standpoint.

>

>

>

> My friend will forward this response of mine to Elephant Family. I look

> forward to their response and any other unresolved issues that may crop up

> will be gladly addressed.

>

> My friend has obtained a lot of literature from Elephant Family on their

> work, if anyone is interested to read them and would like me to share them,

> I am happy to.

>

>

>

> Hope this clears some issues that have been at the heart of the tussle

> between opponents of elephant polo and Elephant Family and Mark Shand. If

> any of you want to clarify some other issues, please do contact them

> directly and address your concerns on AAPN.

>

>

>

> Many thanks.

>

>

>

> Best wishes and kind regards,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [From Moderator:

> 1. Thank you, Shubho, for this important contribution.

> 2. In para 7 of the defence of Elephant Family, there is the complaint of

> " vicious threats and abusive emails and telephone calls " ; and in para 7 of

> your riposte you state, " AAPN is a moderated group where such initiatives on

> elephant polo opposition have not been encouraged. " It is true that posts

> calling for abusive behaviour would be rejected by the Moderator - but I can

> assure everyone that no such post has ever been sent to AAPN.

> John.]

>

>

> ---

>

> For more information on Asian animal issues, please use the search feature

> on the AAPN website: http://www.aapn.org/ or search the list archives at:

> aapn

> Please feel free to send any relevant news or comments to the list at

> aapn! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

 

 

--

http://www.stopelephantpolo.com

http://www.freewebs.com/azamsiddiqui