Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Kim, I am following this thread with amazement that there is a serious debate over the ³quality² of a species, based on human beings meddling with the environment - and then placing an abstraction of ³purity² on top of it all. It just looks stupid from here. Following this logic environmentalists might as well scorn birds, as after all they are just hybrid dinosaurs. But the culprits here are the idiot zoo keepers, who should all just be thrown in a pool of hungry hybrid alligators. Why ALL zoos in Asia shouldn¹t be immediately shutdown is just beyond me. Put the existing animals out of their misery by swift execution, and then use their hair and bones to make historical dioramas, turning each zoo into a museum of artefact's, that¹s what I say. Make it illegal to capture any animal from it¹s current home, and pass laws and build fences or do whatever it takes to preserve their habitats - immediately. Is that so hard? There is no justification for building concentration camps for animals, and then start complaining about the genetic product coming from the camps. The idiocy of humans has gone from laughable to deplorable, and it¹s time something is done to make things right. I sat at the Singapore AFA during a session on the Kathmandu Zoo, while an animal welfare ³colleague² flipped thru a slideshow of the ³before² and ³after² improvements of the zoo, and thru statements that at the time seemed disturbing, and after getting back home to Kathmandu and doing research of my own, found to be outright lies. But as a presenter myself, I sat quietly and with respect, still seething. If this is what is allowed at animal welfare conferences then I think I¹ve been to my last. It¹s just wrong. I don¹t have a degree relating to the environment, conservation, or genetics, but I have enough of a brain to recognise right and wrong. Complicity in the stupidity and the arrogance of our ³scientists² should not be tolerated by the layperson. We are beyond that. I say immediately discredit all those that study animals in cages, just as those ³scientists² at Auschwitz were finally brought to justice and discredited for their misdeeds. Refuse to listen to the crap that comes from their mouths and is printed on research paper. Call them on it. Stop capture and cage. If the bird has a broken wing and is struggling on the ground, try and fix the wing & relieve the pain, but then let it go free. Anything more is just idiot compassion. Capturing animals for study is just dirty science and an exercise in human brutality. Need a blood sample? Okay, get one and get out. Little harm done there. But collecting and breeding in the name of environmentalism or conservation is animal Nazism at it¹s worst. Condoning the practise with the argument, well, we have all these animals from zoos or other crazy human follies we have to care for now...is just horse shit. Living organisms die. Let them die with dignity, not live an artificial life in a small human-manufactured environment that is nothing more then a jail cell in reality. I think if we, as a collective society, and see this simple fact and understand this simple tenant, then humanity will have advanced one notch up the totem pole to enlightenment. Cheers, Jigs KTM, Nepal Kim Bartlett <anpeople Sun, 8 Jun 2008 12:53:39 -0700 <aapn > hybrids Euros and those of Euro descent may be offended but Asians may agree with the theory that Homo sapiens hybridized with Neanderthals when they colonized Europe. Those who interpret DNA evidence say this didn't happen, but I maintain they are misinterpreting the DNA - as (I am convinced) they have done with canine DNA which purports to show that dogs evolved from wolves rather than both species evolving from a common ancestor, which makes more sense, or even that wolves evolved from dogs, which also makes more sense than the opposite. It is only within Europeans or Euro descendants that you have multi-colored hair and eyes, and it is known from physical evidence that Neanderthals had red hair. Hybridization is one of the engines of evolution, and so is species migration and species extinction, so I say the so-called environmentalists who want to purge hybrids and " alien species " are actually anti-nature. Kim >It is wrong to say that hybrids have genetic anomalies. Hybrids have >in many way better resistance and power to fight with infection etc. >We can agree that much study is required. > >Dr.Sandeep K.Jain > >--- On Sun, 8/6/08, > & lt;<journalistandanimals%40gmail.com>journalistandanimals <journalistandanimals%40gmail.com> & gt; >wrote: > > > & lt;<journalistandanimals%40gmail.com>journalistandanimals <journalistandanimals%40gmail.com> & gt; > Hybrid lion welfare at Tirupati Zoo ><aapn%40>aapn <aapn%40> >Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 12:30 PM > >Dear colleagues, >I bring to your notice a news item about >hybrid lions at Tirupati Zoo that appeared in yesterday's Telegraph >newspaper(7th June, 2008)(attached). Speaking on the welfare of the hybrid >lions, the article states: ' " These animals are not wildlife; so no >particular effort is made to promote their well-being, " said the chief >conservator of forests, S.K. Das.' The article also mentions : > " According to >wildlife experts, hybrid animals tend to have genetic anomalies and if >allowed to breed, weaken the gene pool of the species. " >Coming in the aftermath of the comment of the Central Zoo Authority Member >Secretary disowning responsibility for the death of a Giraffe in captivity >citing foreign origin as a cause, the theme of this article gathers added >interest. I submit the following: >1) Scientists and conservation biologists the world over are still unsure as >to how beneficial or harmful hybridisation is for a particular gene pool. >There is a very potent scientific view that far from weakening a gene pool, >hybridisation may actually invigorate the gene pool of a particular species.. >Noted proponents of hybridisation include tiger experts Michael Bleyman and >Billy Arjan Singh. >2) The hybrid animals were brought into this world by the whims of human >beings, they did not choose their hybrid status. To deny them all round >animal welfare measures to promote their well being is thus just plain >wrong. >3) It is by now an accepted fact that the overwhelming majority of the >human species is of hybrid origin, ie., a mix of races. If hybridisation in >animals is to be shunned and hybrid animals discriminated against, how >should we treat ourselves? >An animal's genetic status should not determine how well it should be >treated for it has the same right to life as pure breed creatures. I request >you all to write to the Central Zoo Authority at ><cza%40nic.in>cza <cza%40nic.in> asking them to >request the Tirupati Zoo authorities to take proper measures for the welfare >of the hybrid rescued circus lions. >It is unfortunate that the international zoo community treats hybrid >animals as beings of lesser importance than pure breed animals. Such an >undertaking defies logic since captive pure breed animals are unlikely to be >released in the wild anyway and also because no average zoo visitor would >know the difference between a hybrid and a pure breed animal. >Warm regards, > > ><http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080607/jsp/nation/story_9377597.jsp>http://www. telegraphindia.com/1080607/jsp/nation/story_9377597.jsp >Saturday , June 7 , 2008 > >* Rescued from circus whip, left to die in neglect >G.S. RADHAKRISHNA * > >*Hyderabad, June 6:* The lions at Tirupati's Sri Venkateswara Zoo live >under >a caste system. > >Some are pampered, allowed as much sex as they want, and are hailed as the >finest of the Asian breed. The other set survives in jam-packed same-sex >cages, fed but not cared for, denied copulation rights, objects of pity that >is mixed with contempt. > >These 70 were " rescued " from circuses across India seven years ago >after the >Supreme Court banned circuses from training or exhibiting bears, monkeys, >tigers, panthers and lions. > >At their new home, the ringmaster's whip no longer cuts into their skin, >but >they live under concentration-camp conditions. The 14 females are kept apart >from the 56 males because India's wildlife laws do not allow sex between >hybrid animals - or between hybrid and " pure " breeds. > > " We were instructed by the central zoo authority that we must not >encourage >regeneration of these hybrid animals, " said A.V. Joseph, the state's >principal conservator of forests (wildlife). > > " We keep these animals tranquillised most of the time so they don't >get >violent for lack of sex, " zoo warden Raghupati said. > >Sources explained that circus lions tend to be hybrids of the Asiatic and >African varieties, probably because the owners buy animals from both groups >and interbreed them. According to wildlife experts, hybrid animals tend to >have genetic anomalies and if allowed to breed, weaken the gene pool of the >species. > >*At the zoo, styled a wildlife park, they are seen as impostors. " These >animals are not wildlife; so no particular effort is made to promote their >well-being, " said the chief conservator of forests, S.K. Das.* > >* " But we don't starve them of food or medicare although these circus >animals >eat more than those captured from the wild - about 8kg of meat every >day, " >warden Raghupati said.* > >*So the zoo is feeding them and waiting for them to die. " The zoo >authorities in Delhi said these animals must be allowed to live as long as >they can. That's all, " a forest official said.* > >The females are aged between 8 and 14 years but most of the males are over >15. " The average life span of wild lions is less than 15 but those in >captivity live for 20-25 years, " said Praveen Bhargav, a trustee of NGO >Wildlife First. > >There is a campaign afoot for mercy killing of the over-20s who cannot move >well any more. > >Besides, there's the fear of poachers. Memories of Sakhi, an eight-year-old >tiger that was killed and skinned in the Hyderabad zoo, is fresh in >everyone's mind. > > " Instead of letting them rot and die at Tirupati, the animals might as >well >be distributed among the country's smaller zoos so that, at least, children >can learn about wildlife, " said Imran Siddiqui, founder of the Tiger >Conservation Society in Hyderabad. > >Some of the lions ferried to the zoo - from circuses such as Rambo (Surat), >Grand National (Mumbai), Venus (Bihar), Apollo (Varanasi) and Royal (Kerala) >- have already died. > >A few tigers were also brought there but only one survives. When there were >more, they were denied sex, too. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Edwin, I would rather there not be ANY breeding of animals - not in zoos, not for purported reintroduction to the wild, not for pets, not for meat, and not for any other human purpose. But if hybrids exist in captivity, then people have a moral obligation to take care of them, and if they exist in the wild, people should leave them alone. If hybrids escape captivity and are able to survive in the wild, more power to them, and if they are able to pass on their genes via reproduction with similar species, then they obviously have a place in nature. Kim >Hi Kim, > >Why would any European be offended? If it was the Asian that >travelled there and hybridized with the Neanderthaler they both >should be ashamed of themselves, naughty naughty! It doesn't matter >that the Japanese are actually migrated Koreans, Indians are >actually Russians and that the real pure Americans are very hard to >find nowadays as they somehow did not want to hybridize with the >Europeans... > >A hybrid bear (Malayan Sun bear with Asiatic Black bear) was found >in the wild in Cambodia a few years ago, in Thailand there is a >group of Rhesus macaques that have hybridized with pig-tails in the >wild. I am sure there are more examples. But this is all in the >wild. I don't think people (and especially not professional zoos) >should hybridize animals in captivity, why create more species if we >cannot even protect the ones we have already. Besides this we don't >know enough about the risks yet, what happens if these hybrids >escape a zoo and get to live in the wild? > >Edwin Wiek > -- Kim Bartlett, President of Animal People, Inc. Postal mailing address: P.O. Box 960, Clinton WA 98236 U.S.A. email <ANPEOPLE web-site: http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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