Guest guest Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Dear John Edmundson, Forgive me if my points did not make my stance on several issues cogent. I also apologise if any of my statements have appeared as attacking you for that was not my intention. You raise many important questions which I will try to address in order: 1) My post on WWF and Titan was made consciously keeping in mind the collaboration between Cartier, Help in Suffering and Elephant Family a couple of years ago. I wanted people to know the nature of relationships between animal organizations and corporate groups and although the organizations in the message were of Indian origin, I thought it was relevant for a general appraisal of such partnerships. 2) Milk and veganism : I admit that I am a vegetarian but not a vegan. But as I said earlier, most human beings are flawed and I am one of them; I am no saint. I have however cut down on my milk consumption. Also, from a purely medical and health point of view, I am not convinced that a vegan diet is the best one for humans. Having said that, I state that I have admiration for people who are vegans having given up on all animal products; I hope that I can become a vegan one day. The debate on veganism and vegetarianism versus a meat eating diet has some grey areas to say the least. Please take a look at this article entitled 'The Evolution of Diet' by zoologist Desmond Morris at this link here : http://www.healthspan.co.uk/articles/the_evolution_of_diet_a1021.aspx I have come across many non vegetarian people who work sincerely for animal welfare. Also, it is widely accepted that vegetarianism is of several types, eg., ovo vegetarianism which permits eating of eggs or lacto vegetarianism that allows consuming milk and milk products. In my view a change in diet could be done gradually and in steps. Thus a shift from a diet including meat and fish to one excluding meat and fish but including eggs is a step forward. By the same token, a diet excluding meat, fish and eggs but including milk is also a positive step. And ultimately a diet that excludes all animal products is an ideal one. Please keep informed that there are some kinds of vegetarianism in India that not only exclude animal rpoducts but plant products like onions too. So I feel that my diet as a lacto vegetarian one, although not perfectly in tune with a classical animal rights position, is one that is adjacent to it. I am aware of the slaughterhouse conditions in Kolkata and have written about it and talked to the city mayor regarding the issue. Here is the link to my article : http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/atleisure/story_8571304.asp So I am just as concerned as you are about the ill treatment of animals destined for slaughter. 2) Humane slaughter : Perhaps you missed the AAPN debate on humane slaughter in the aftermath of the last Asia for Animals conference. I have protested humane slaughter at AfA conferences in Singapore, Madras and Bali and have written about it on AAPN and Excalibur, the newsletter of People for Animals. Thus I am in agreement with you that slaughter can never be humane. If you want, I can send you my writings on the issue. 3) Is Titan humane? Honestly I do not know but if they have leather products they should certainly make a move away from it. But if using leather is inhumane then all producers of jeans trousers are inhumane too since these clothes have leather tags. Leather is used in a wide variety of products and I think that all companies that use leather are not aware of the cruelty involved in leather production. 4) Is WWF humane? I think we have had this debate before. I was a member of the WWF endorsed Nature Club in my school. I definitely learnt humane lessons during my association with them. But that is not to say I approve of their position on culling and animal experimentation. I have mentioned this before. However, please keep informed that several of India's notable animal welfare workers are former WWF staff. They do excellent work for species preservation and habitat protection. The lesson here is that no organization is perfect ; you would not work with anyone if any were. Your point about the Slimbridge Bird Sanctuary is well made and well taken. I have noticed the same thing at Jersey Zoo where they serve venison to trainees at the International Training Centre. As a vegetarian I was spared that during my tenure there. I emphasise that different opinions make the world a better place. I learnt it at the last AfA conference where I met two zoo directors, one of whom was pro culling of elephants. He told me, " I would love to keep in touch with you although we may not agree about culling. " He is taking over as the director of a British zoo soon but wants to discuss the zoo's flaws with an anti zoo organization. I welcome such upright moves. In conclusion, what I am simply saying is this : AAPN should include views from all kinds of people working for animals, be it welfare, rights or conservation. I may not agree with you but I will defend your right to say what you feel is right. I also will defend the right to people to make funding appeals on AAPN or any other listserve. As for myself writing garbage on this forum is concerned, John Wedderburn has the liberty to delete my posts if he concurs with you. The delete button is always near as Jigme has said. Thank you for expressing your thoughts. Best wishes and warm regards, Warmly, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 you write - " ...............vegetarianism is of several types, eg., ovo vegetarianism which permits eating of eggs or lacto vegetarianism that allows consuming milk and milk products. " . I am not very expert about " ..ism's " . I cannot comprehend your use of these words - " permits " & " allows " . Commercial dairy, flesh & egg production involve incredible cruelty to animals - do you know of some deity / force / committee / individual which " permits " / " allows " this cruelty? + + " ...and there is in general good reason to suppose that in several respects the gods could all benefit from instruction by us human beings. We humans are - more humane. " - a quote from Friedrich Nietzsche - who was, amongst other things, reputedly " kind to horses " ! + + You write - " In my view a change in diet could be done gradually and in steps. " - here I disagree with you entirely - why prolong the suffering of the eaten & the eater? - this is support of torture. I hold that blood (egg / dairy / flesh) consumption is simply an addiction which harms animals & harms the health of the addicted individual - a single addiction - it does not need to be complicated with complex terminology or broken up into sub-categories. With intelligence & some will-power it can quickly be overcome. + + you write - " I think that all companies that use leather are not aware of the cruelty involved in leather production. " - I doubt that very much - I suspect that they know very well but simply do not care about the fact that the animals were tortured & then killed. Groups such as WWF-India continue on & industrialists such as Titan manage to sell their bloodstained products because the " 80% " are hungry for their stories / products. + + I like your Press Artickles - once you start to write & publish articles explaining the direct links between - dairy animal parts refined foods cooking oils & diabetes strokes cancers other degenerative diseases - there will be a shift to herbivorous / frugivorous eating in the city of Kolkata. This will be very, very good news for animals. + + Howard Lyman - http://www.madcowboy.com/ <http://www.madcowboy.com/> - quotes - " 80% of people are brain dead and cannot be reached by reason " - " Do not think that because you saw ten people today and only two of them had a clue of what you were talking about that today was a failure. That's an absolute, 100% successful day. " . + + Focus on the 20%. + + Desmond Morris - I appreciate his art very much - however......................Desmond Morris also writes strictly for the 'herd " - the " 80% " . + + Robert Sussman's book, " Man the Hunted: Primates, Predators and Human Evolution, " nicely bebunks the " hunter gatherer " theory - http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/4582.html <http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/4582.html> + + " Guide to Sports Nutrition " is a much better read than Desmond Morris & much better for animals - single page format - http://www.organicathlete.org/book/export/html/173 <http://www.organicathlete.org/book/export/html/173> - in booklet form - http://www.organicathlete.org/%5Bbook-raw%5D/guide <http://www.organicathlete.org/%5Bbook-raw%5D/guide> + + In the UK / US we will soon be at 3% of plant eaters. + + Kolkata - including the suburbs - 15 million plus souls - with just 3% of them transcending dairy & flesh it would become......................................... + + Rabindranatha Tagore PATISAR, _22nd March 1894._ As I was sitting at the window of the boat, looking out on the river, I saw, all of a sudden, an odd-looking bird making its way through the water to the opposite bank, followed by a great commotion. I found it was a domestic fowl which had managed to escape impending doom in the galley by jumping overboard and was now trying frantically to win across. It had almost gained the bank when the clutches of its relentless pursuers closed on it, and it was brought back in triumph, gripped by the neck. I told the cook I would not have any meat for dinner. I really must give up animal food. We manage to swallow flesh only because we do not think of the cruel and sinful thing we do. There are many crimes which are the creation of man himself, the wrongfulness of which is put down to their divergence from habit, custom, or tradition. But cruelty is not of these. It is a fundamental sin, and admits of no argument or nice distinctions. If only we do not allow our heart to grow callous, its protest against cruelty is always clearly heard; and yet we go on perpetrating cruelties easily, merrily, all of us--in fact, any one who does not join in is dubbed a crank. How artificial is our apprehension of sin! I feel that the highest commandment is that of sympathy for all sentient beings. Love is the foundation of all religion. The other day I read in one of the English papers that 50,000 pounds of animal carcasses had been sent to some army station in Africa, but the meat being found to have gone bad on arrival, the consignment was returned and was eventually auctioned off for a few pounds at Portsmouth. What a shocking waste of life! What callousness to its true worth! How many living creatures are sacrificed only to grace the dishes at a dinner-party, a large proportion of which will leave the table untouched! So long as we are unconscious of our cruelty we may not be to blame. But if, after our pity is aroused, we persist in throttling our feelings simply in order to join others in their preying upon life, we insult all that is good in us. I have decided to try a vegetarian diet. + + http://www.fullbooks.com/Glimpses-of-Bengal2.html <http://www.fullbooks.com/Glimpses-of-Bengal2.html> - I suspect that, like M. K. Gandhi, Rabindranatha Tagore had also read some of Henry S. Salt's books / pamphlets. aapn , " " wrote: > > Dear John Edmundson, > > Forgive me if my points did not make my > stance on several issues cogent. I also apologise if any of my statements > have appeared as attacking you for that was not my intention. You raise many > important questions which I will try to address in order: > > > > 1) My post on WWF and Titan was made consciously keeping in mind the > collaboration between Cartier, Help in Suffering and Elephant Family a > couple of years ago. I wanted people to know the nature of relationships > between animal organizations and corporate groups and although the > organizations in the message were of Indian origin, I thought it was > relevant for a general appraisal of such partnerships. > > > > 2) Milk and veganism : I admit that I am a vegetarian but not a vegan. But > as I said earlier, most human beings are flawed and I am one of them; I am > no saint. I have however cut down on my milk consumption. Also, from a > purely medical and health point of view, I am not convinced that a vegan > diet is the best one for humans. Having said that, I state that I have > admiration for people who are vegans having given up on all animal products; > I hope that I can become a vegan one day. The debate on veganism and > vegetarianism versus a meat eating diet has some grey areas to say the > least. Please take a look at this article entitled 'The Evolution of Diet' > by zoologist Desmond Morris at this link here : > http://www.healthspan.co.uk/articles/the_evolution_of_diet_a1021.aspx > > I have come across many non vegetarian people who work sincerely for animal > welfare. Also, it is widely accepted that vegetarianism is of several types, > eg., ovo vegetarianism which permits eating of eggs or lacto vegetarianism > that allows consuming milk and milk products. In my view a change in diet > could be done gradually and in steps. Thus a shift from a diet including > meat and fish to one excluding meat and fish but including eggs is a step > forward. By the same token, a diet excluding meat, fish and eggs but > including milk is also a positive step. And ultimately a diet that excludes > all animal products is an ideal one. Please keep informed that there are > some kinds of vegetarianism in India that not only exclude animal rpoducts > but plant products like onions too. So I feel that my diet as a lacto > vegetarian one, although not perfectly in tune with a classical animal > rights position, is one that is adjacent to it. > > > > I am aware of the slaughterhouse conditions in Kolkata and have written > about it and talked to the city mayor regarding the issue. Here is the link > to my article : > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/atleisure/story_8571304.asp > > So I am just as concerned as you are about the ill treatment of animals > destined for slaughter. > > > > 2) Humane slaughter : Perhaps you missed the AAPN debate on humane slaughter > in the aftermath of the last Asia for Animals conference. I have protested > humane slaughter at AfA conferences in Singapore, Madras and Bali and have > written about it on AAPN and Excalibur, the newsletter of People for > Animals. Thus I am in agreement with you that slaughter can never be humane. > If you want, I can send you my writings on the issue. > > > > 3) Is Titan humane? Honestly I do not know but if they have leather products > they should certainly make a move away from it. But if using leather is > inhumane then all producers of jeans trousers are inhumane too since these > clothes have leather tags. Leather is used in a wide variety of products and > I think that all companies that use leather are not aware of the cruelty > involved in leather production. > > > > 4) Is WWF humane? I think we have had this debate before. I was a member of > the WWF endorsed Nature Club in my school. I definitely learnt humane > lessons during my association with them. But that is not to say I approve of > their position on culling and animal experimentation. I have mentioned this > before. However, please keep informed that several of India's notable animal > welfare workers are former WWF staff. They do excellent work for species > preservation and habitat protection. The lesson here is that no organization > is perfect ; you would not work with anyone if any were. > > Your point about the Slimbridge Bird Sanctuary is well made and well taken. > I have noticed the same thing at Jersey Zoo where they serve venison to > trainees at the International Training Centre. As a vegetarian I was spared > that during my tenure there. > > I emphasise that different opinions make the world a better place. I > learnt it at the last AfA conference where I met two zoo directors, one of > whom was pro culling of elephants. He told me, " I would love to keep in > touch with you although we may not agree about culling. " He is taking over > as the director of a British zoo soon but wants to discuss the zoo's flaws > with an anti zoo organization. I welcome such upright moves. > > In conclusion, what I am simply saying is this : AAPN should include views > from all kinds of people working for animals, be it welfare, rights or > conservation. I may not agree with you but I will defend your right to say > what you feel is right. I also will defend the right to people to make > funding appeals on AAPN or any other listserve. > > As for myself writing garbage on this forum is concerned, John Wedderburn > has the liberty to delete my posts if he concurs with you. The delete button > is always near as Jigme has said. Thank you for expressing your thoughts. > > Best wishes and warm regards, > > > > Warmly, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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