(TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

[Guest guest]

Tiger temple sues conservationists and newspaper reporter over complaints of

illegal wildlife possession, animal torture and alleged illegal trade in

tigers with foreign countries without permit.

 

 

 

Three local conservationists are being handed over by police to court on

Wednesday the 3rd of February at 10:00AM at the provincial court of

Kanchanaburi Province. The three are being accused of defamation by the

infamous Tiger Temple after a news article in the Thai Post newspaper in

April 2009 where accusation were made about animal torture, illegal wildlife

trade and possession taking place at the tiger temple. All three

conservationists and animal welfare experts were quoted in this article as

having a derogatory opinion of the tiger temple.

 

 

 

At the Tiger temple (Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua Yannasampanno, Kanchanaburi)

hundreds of foreign tourists daily visit the zoo to see and make pictures

with the tigers. Entrance fee is 500 baht (15 US dollars) per person while

making " special photos " costs 1,000 baht (30 dollars) extra. For a morning

experience people pay 4,500 baht (120 US dollars) per person to feed the

cubs and watch the cub-exercise session.

 

 

 

At least a dozen tigers are being dragged from their small enclosures every

afternoon down to a sun-backed hot valley to pose with tourists. These

tigers are extremely lethargic and allegations have been made that they are

being been drugged. When tigers are not obedient before, during or after the

photo-session they are sprayed by the keepers with urine from bottles in

their eyes and faces and/or hit with wooden sticks on their backs and heads.

All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild is

considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. In the past

years several tigers from the tiger temple have mysteriously disappeared

once mature, and some when there were excess cubs. The copy of a contract

was found in 2008 where the tiger temple agreed to send tigers to an illegal

tiger farm in Laos, signed by the tiger farmer, the abbot of the temple and

a member of the temple board. The export or exchange of protected wildlife

such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES

(Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species). The Department of

National Parks, Plants and Wildlife has never issued a permit to the tiger

temple to exchange or export tigers. As a matter of fact the tigers at the

temple have been confiscated in 2002 as they were illegally obtained, but

were allowed to stay at the temple as the authorities had no shelter

available to care for the tigers while the authorities were looking in to

the legal case. A zoo permit was issued on a plot of land next to the temple

on the name of a commercial enterprise in July 2009, however nothing has

been built there to this date and the tigers are currently still being

exploited on temple grounds.

 

 

 

Comments and complaints made by many conservationists and animal welfare

activists were made to make people aware about the torture, illegal trade

and the real value to conservation and to make a stop to the suffering of

animals.

 

 

 

 

 

People being charged:

 

Edwin Wiek

 

Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand (WFFT)

 

Tel: 08-90600906

 

edwin.wiek

 

Web: www.wfft.org <http://www.wfft.org/>

 

 

 

Dr. Surapon Duangkae

 

Wildlife Fund Thailand under Royal Patronage

 

Tel: 08-67790454

 

suraponwft

 

 

 

Mr. Sawan Sangbunlang

 

Thai Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

 

Tel: 08-19347374

 

info

 

Web: www.thaispca.org <http://www.thaispca.org/>

 

 

 

Websites on the tiger temple:

 

www.tigertempletruths.org <http://www.tigertempletruths.org/> (informative

website)

 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=293971072672 (discussion group)

 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=95165464756 (discussion group)

 

CITES website www.cites.org <http://www.cites.org/>

 

 

 

Edwin Wiek

 

Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

Amphoe Thayang

76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

Mobile: +66-8-90600906

<http://www.wfft.org/> http://www.wfft.org

SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

(All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild is

considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. )

 

As much as I sympathise with you Edwin, I must say again that I do not

and never will do, to this racist hybridisation theory. BIOLOGISTS

DO NOT KNOW WHAT DEFINES A HYBRID AND THEY SHOULD HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND THE

HONESTY TO ADMIT THIS LIMITATION OF THE SCIENCE RATHER THAN CONSTANTLY

PREACH HATRED FOR HYBRID ANIMALS. ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE HYBRID, SO ACCORDING

TO THIS THEORY SAVING HUMANS IS A CONSERVATION CRIME, RIGHT? I AM ABSOLUTELY

AMAZED AND ASTOUNDED AT THE DEAFENING SILENCE OF ANIMAL PROTECTIONISTS ON

THIS HYBRIDISATION ISSUE. THIS KIND OF PREJUDICED HATE MONGERING CAN ONLY BE

TERMED AS SHAMEFUL AND DESPICABLE.

 

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:19 PM, <edwin.wiek wrote:

 

>

>

> Tiger temple sues conservationists and newspaper reporter over complaints

> of

> illegal wildlife possession, animal torture and alleged illegal trade in

> tigers with foreign countries without permit.

>

> Three local conservationists are being handed over by police to court on

> Wednesday the 3rd of February at 10:00AM at the provincial court of

> Kanchanaburi Province. The three are being accused of defamation by the

> infamous Tiger Temple after a news article in the Thai Post newspaper in

> April 2009 where accusation were made about animal torture, illegal

> wildlife

> trade and possession taking place at the tiger temple. All three

> conservationists and animal welfare experts were quoted in this article as

> having a derogatory opinion of the tiger temple.

>

> At the Tiger temple (Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua Yannasampanno, Kanchanaburi)

> hundreds of foreign tourists daily visit the zoo to see and make pictures

> with the tigers. Entrance fee is 500 baht (15 US dollars) per person while

> making " special photos " costs 1,000 baht (30 dollars) extra. For a morning

> experience people pay 4,500 baht (120 US dollars) per person to feed the

> cubs and watch the cub-exercise session.

>

> At least a dozen tigers are being dragged from their small enclosures every

> afternoon down to a sun-backed hot valley to pose with tourists. These

> tigers are extremely lethargic and allegations have been made that they are

> being been drugged. When tigers are not obedient before, during or after

> the

> photo-session they are sprayed by the keepers with urine from bottles in

> their eyes and faces and/or hit with wooden sticks on their backs and

> heads.

> All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

> commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

> hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild is

> considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. In the

> past

> years several tigers from the tiger temple have mysteriously disappeared

> once mature, and some when there were excess cubs. The copy of a contract

> was found in 2008 where the tiger temple agreed to send tigers to an

> illegal

> tiger farm in Laos, signed by the tiger farmer, the abbot of the temple and

> a member of the temple board. The export or exchange of protected wildlife

> such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES

> (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species). The Department

> of

> National Parks, Plants and Wildlife has never issued a permit to the tiger

> temple to exchange or export tigers. As a matter of fact the tigers at the

> temple have been confiscated in 2002 as they were illegally obtained, but

> were allowed to stay at the temple as the authorities had no shelter

> available to care for the tigers while the authorities were looking in to

> the legal case. A zoo permit was issued on a plot of land next to the

> temple

> on the name of a commercial enterprise in July 2009, however nothing has

> been built there to this date and the tigers are currently still being

> exploited on temple grounds.

>

> Comments and complaints made by many conservationists and animal welfare

> activists were made to make people aware about the torture, illegal trade

> and the real value to conservation and to make a stop to the suffering of

> animals.

>

> People being charged:

>

> Edwin Wiek

>

> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand (WFFT)

>

> Tel: 08-90600906

>

> edwin.wiek <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org>

>

> Web: www.wfft.org <http://www.wfft.org/>

>

> Dr. Surapon Duangkae

>

> Wildlife Fund Thailand under Royal Patronage

>

> Tel: 08-67790454

>

> suraponwft <suraponwft%40gmail.com>

>

> Mr. Sawan Sangbunlang

>

> Thai Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

>

> Tel: 08-19347374

>

> info <info%40thaispca.org>

>

> Web: www.thaispca.org <http://www.thaispca.org/>

>

> Websites on the tiger temple:

>

> www.tigertempletruths.org <http://www.tigertempletruths.org/> (informative

> website)

>

> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=293971072672 (discussion group)

>

> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=95165464756 (discussion group)

>

> CITES website www.cites.org <http://www.cites.org/>

>

> Edwin Wiek

>

> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

> 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

> Amphoe Thayang

> 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

> Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

> Mobile: +66-8-90600906

> <http://www.wfft.org/> http://www.wfft.org

> SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

> FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

> http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

>

>

[Guest guest]

Historically, the obsessive concern of many conservationists

with the " purity " of genetic lines traces back to pre-Darwinian

times, and to the obsession of bastard nobility with denying their

own bastardy.

 

As the economic effects of the Industrial Revolution came to

dethrone hereditary nobility, many of the nobles of northern Europe

reinvented themselves as preservationists of nature, including

notions of the alleged pure and noble Nordic master race that would

keep them in charge of society.

 

Ironically it was a bastard sergeant who carried this concept

to the farthest extreme. Some of his pre-World War II followers

became some of the most prominent conservationists in post-war

England, with considerable enduring influence.

 

Meanwhile, geese and other wildlife conspicuously avoid

goose-stepping in ranked formation, mostly doing everything they can

to avoid the effects of inbreeding to which some attribute the

decline of hereditary nobility, despite their initial advantage of a

near-monopoly on wealth, political influence, and command of

military might.

 

In the end, the practical difference between genetically

" pure " nobility and inbred hillbillies is that the former maintain

delusions of grandeur, while the latter produce better music.

 

The practical difference between genetically " pure " wildlife

and " hybrids " is that the former tend to be close to extinction due

to insufficiently broad gene pools, while the latter are

misleadingly equated with the also excessively inbred " hybrids " who

are produced by the billions on factory farms.

 

To a remarkable extent, some of the rarest species share

genetic defects with some of the most abundant, in either case

because they lack the benefits of " hybrid vigor, " produced by mixing

& mingling gene pools as most animals & humans prefer to do.

 

 

--

Merritt Clifton

Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE

P.O. Box 960

Clinton, WA 98236

 

Telephone: 360-579-2505

Fax: 360-579-2575

E-mail: anmlpepl

Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org

 

[Your donations help to support ANIMAL PEOPLE, the leading

independent nonprofit newspaper providing original investigative

coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our

global readership includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000

animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation

with any other entity. Free online; $24/year by post; for free

sample, please send postal address.]

[Guest guest]

Ha, but the new tigers and other wildlife sing better no? Enjoyed this

post, thx...

Jigs

 

 

 

 

Merritt Clifton <anmlpepl

Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:42:15 -0800

AAPN List <aapn >

Re: (TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

 

 

 

 

 

 

Historically, the obsessive concern of many conservationists

with the " purity " of genetic lines traces back to pre-Darwinian

times, and to the obsession of bastard nobility with denying their

own bastardy.

 

As the economic effects of the Industrial Revolution came to

dethrone hereditary nobility, many of the nobles of northern Europe

reinvented themselves as preservationists of nature, including

notions of the alleged pure and noble Nordic master race that would

keep them in charge of society.

 

Ironically it was a bastard sergeant who carried this concept

to the farthest extreme. Some of his pre-World War II followers

became some of the most prominent conservationists in post-war

England, with considerable enduring influence.

 

Meanwhile, geese and other wildlife conspicuously avoid

goose-stepping in ranked formation, mostly doing everything they can

to avoid the effects of inbreeding to which some attribute the

decline of hereditary nobility, despite their initial advantage of a

near-monopoly on wealth, political influence, and command of

military might.

 

In the end, the practical difference between genetically

" pure " nobility and inbred hillbillies is that the former maintain

delusions of grandeur, while the latter produce better music.

 

The practical difference between genetically " pure " wildlife

and " hybrids " is that the former tend to be close to extinction due

to insufficiently broad gene pools, while the latter are

misleadingly equated with the also excessively inbred " hybrids " who

are produced by the billions on factory farms.

 

To a remarkable extent, some of the rarest species share

genetic defects with some of the most abundant, in either case

because they lack the benefits of " hybrid vigor, " produced by mixing

& mingling gene pools as most animals & humans prefer to do.

 

--

Merritt Clifton

Editor, ANIMAL PEOPLE

P.O. Box 960

Clinton, WA 98236

 

Telephone: 360-579-2505

Fax: 360-579-2575

E-mail: anmlpepl <anmlpepl%40whidbey.com>

Web: www.animalpeoplenews.org

 

[Your donations help to support ANIMAL PEOPLE, the leading

independent nonprofit newspaper providing original investigative

coverage of animal protection worldwide, founded in 1992. Our

global readership includes the decision-makers at more than 10,000

animal protection organizations. We have no alignment or affiliation

with any other entity. Free online; $24/year by post; for free

sample, please send postal address.]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Subhobroto,

 

 

 

Nobody preaches hatred against hybrid animals, what a complete nonsense,

what have you been smoking? The point is that the TT is saying it can

release the tigers back into the wild which means the tigers in its care

have conservation value. And the answer is they don't have any value for

conservation because they don't boost the gene pool and they can't

interbreed with wild tigers. You here believe they have value because they

are animals and they have a right to live. That's a different argument but

it's not a conservation argument however an animal welfare argument. When

people decide to breed hybrids for the sake of conservation of the wild

population they are fooling themselves and others alike. What's next? Ligers

breeding for India? Or what about Zedonks for the African continent?

Introduction of new species while we can hardly protect those that are there

already makes no (scientific) sense!

 

 

 

I also do not need your sympathy, but the tigers do. Somehow I do feel that

the saving of people is unnecessary from a scientific point of view however,

but I will not deny them the right to live either.

 

 

 

Edwin Wiek

 

Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

Amphoe Thayang

76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

Mobile: +66-8-90600906

<http://www.wfft.org/> http://www.wfft.org

SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

 

_____

 

aapn [aapn ] On Behalf Of

 

Wednesday, February 03, 2010 11:55 AM

AAPN List

Re: (TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

 

 

 

 

 

(All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild is

considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. )

 

As much as I sympathise with you Edwin, I must say again that I do not

and never will do, to this racist hybridisation theory. BIOLOGISTS

DO NOT KNOW WHAT DEFINES A HYBRID AND THEY SHOULD HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND THE

HONESTY TO ADMIT THIS LIMITATION OF THE SCIENCE RATHER THAN CONSTANTLY

PREACH HATRED FOR HYBRID ANIMALS. ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE HYBRID, SO ACCORDING

TO THIS THEORY SAVING HUMANS IS A CONSERVATION CRIME, RIGHT? I AM ABSOLUTELY

AMAZED AND ASTOUNDED AT THE DEAFENING SILENCE OF ANIMAL PROTECTIONISTS ON

THIS HYBRIDISATION ISSUE. THIS KIND OF PREJUDICED HATE MONGERING CAN ONLY BE

TERMED AS SHAMEFUL AND DESPICABLE.

 

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:19 PM, <edwin.wiek (AT) wfft (DOT)

<edwin.wiek%40wfft.org> org> wrote:

 

>

>

> Tiger temple sues conservationists and newspaper reporter over complaints

> of

> illegal wildlife possession, animal torture and alleged illegal trade in

> tigers with foreign countries without permit.

>

> Three local conservationists are being handed over by police to court on

> Wednesday the 3rd of February at 10:00AM at the provincial court of

> Kanchanaburi Province. The three are being accused of defamation by the

> infamous Tiger Temple after a news article in the Thai Post newspaper in

> April 2009 where accusation were made about animal torture, illegal

> wildlife

> trade and possession taking place at the tiger temple. All three

> conservationists and animal welfare experts were quoted in this article as

> having a derogatory opinion of the tiger temple.

>

> At the Tiger temple (Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua Yannasampanno, Kanchanaburi)

> hundreds of foreign tourists daily visit the zoo to see and make pictures

> with the tigers. Entrance fee is 500 baht (15 US dollars) per person while

> making " special photos " costs 1,000 baht (30 dollars) extra. For a morning

> experience people pay 4,500 baht (120 US dollars) per person to feed the

> cubs and watch the cub-exercise session.

>

> At least a dozen tigers are being dragged from their small enclosures

every

> afternoon down to a sun-backed hot valley to pose with tourists. These

> tigers are extremely lethargic and allegations have been made that they

are

> being been drugged. When tigers are not obedient before, during or after

> the

> photo-session they are sprayed by the keepers with urine from bottles in

> their eyes and faces and/or hit with wooden sticks on their backs and

> heads.

> All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

> commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

> hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild

is

> considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. In the

> past

> years several tigers from the tiger temple have mysteriously disappeared

> once mature, and some when there were excess cubs. The copy of a contract

> was found in 2008 where the tiger temple agreed to send tigers to an

> illegal

> tiger farm in Laos, signed by the tiger farmer, the abbot of the temple

and

> a member of the temple board. The export or exchange of protected wildlife

> such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES

> (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species). The Department

> of

> National Parks, Plants and Wildlife has never issued a permit to the tiger

> temple to exchange or export tigers. As a matter of fact the tigers at the

> temple have been confiscated in 2002 as they were illegally obtained, but

> were allowed to stay at the temple as the authorities had no shelter

> available to care for the tigers while the authorities were looking in to

> the legal case. A zoo permit was issued on a plot of land next to the

> temple

> on the name of a commercial enterprise in July 2009, however nothing has

> been built there to this date and the tigers are currently still being

> exploited on temple grounds.

>

> Comments and complaints made by many conservationists and animal welfare

> activists were made to make people aware about the torture, illegal trade

> and the real value to conservation and to make a stop to the suffering of

> animals.

>

> People being charged:

>

> Edwin Wiek

>

> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand (WFFT)

>

> Tel: 08-90600906

>

> edwin.wiek (AT) wfft (DOT) <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org> org

<edwin.wiek%40wfft.org>

>

> Web: www.wfft.org <http://www.wfft. <http://www.wfft.org/> org/>

>

> Dr. Surapon Duangkae

>

> Wildlife Fund Thailand under Royal Patronage

>

> Tel: 08-67790454

>

> suraponwft (AT) gmail (DOT) <suraponwft%40gmail.com> com

<suraponwft%40gmail.com>

>

> Mr. Sawan Sangbunlang

>

> Thai Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

>

> Tel: 08-19347374

>

> info (AT) thaispca (DOT) <info%40thaispca.org> org <info%40thaispca.org>

>

> Web: www.thaispca.org <http://www.thaispca <http://www.thaispca.org/>

..org/>

>

> Websites on the tiger temple:

>

> www.tigertempletruths.org <http://www.tigertem

<http://www.tigertempletruths.org/> pletruths.org/> (informative

> website)

>

> http://www.facebook <http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=293971072672>

..com/group.php?gid=293971072672 (discussion group)

>

> http://www.facebook <http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=95165464756>

..com/group.php?gid=95165464756 (discussion group)

>

> CITES website www.cites.org <http://www.cites. <http://www.cites.org/>

org/>

>

> Edwin Wiek

>

> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

> 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

> Amphoe Thayang

> 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

> Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

> Mobile: +66-8-90600906

> <http://www.wfft. <http://www.wfft.org/> org/> http://www.wfft.

<http://www.wfft.org> org

> SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

> FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook

<http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

..com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

> http://www.facebook <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

..com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Edwin,

Thank you for responding since Since coming to Delhi I

have been smoking a lot of cigarettes but I would not say it has affected my

thinking much.(Please don't tell my mother, she detests smoking.)

 

Kindly permit me to expand. What is a hybrid ? All tigers originate in

Siberia and therefore the genetic makeup, whatever may be the case for these

animals in Thailand is irrelevant to the argument at hand for either

conservation or welfare.

 

You say nobody preaches hatred against hybrid animals, well many zoo

community members do. There have been several cases in which notable zoo

figures have advocated the systematic extermination of hybrid animals.

Kindly see this link for full story:

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2116207.ece

 

(Extract : Harry Schram, the executive director of the European Association

of Zoos and Aquaria (EAZA), said he was unconcerned about zoos killing

healthy animals and selling them for stuffing.

 

He admitted EAZA zoos were being actively encouraged to kill unwanted

animals, including tigers, that could not be rehomed elsewhere and

especially if their bloodlines were not pure. So-called “hybrid” tigers,

which result from crossing two or more of the subspecies, make up the

majority of the 10,000 captive tigers worldwide.

 

“For hybrid tigers it is almost impossible, they take up the space, they tie

up keeper time and food that could be invested in endangered species, so we

are certainly not encouraging our members to keep these animals when there

is an alternative of euthanasia,” said Schram.

 

“I am probably more concerned about the species issue than about the

individual animal but I know in the UK things are a little bit different in

that there are lots of feelings about animals as individuals.” )

 

Colin Tudge, writing in 'Last Animals At the Zoo' categorically stated that

we ought to kill at least some hybrid animals for " conservation. " He cited

spider monkeys as an example.

Let me cite another example. At one point of time, it was discovered that

Orang Utans in USA were hybrids between Sumatran and Bornean. This led to

many institutions dumping their animals on roadside slum menageries despite

the fact that almost no visitor would notice the difference. Is that hate

mongering or not considering that Orang Utans were classified as a single

species at some point of time? Talking about release of hybrid animals, I

have absolutely no issues if hybrid(SumatranX Bornean) Orang Utans are

released in the wild.

 

You say the Thai temple tigers do not boost the gene pool and they cannot

breed with wild tigers. Where is the evidence that this is so ? Who has

carried the genetic study of the Thai tigers I would like to know and what

research lies at the bottom of this claim?

 

If a captive tiger cannot add to the gene pool, how could Billy Arjan

Singh's Tara(Bengal X Siberian) survive in Dudhwa and produce healthy

offspring?

 

Ligers are a different matter because lions and tigers do not interact in

the wild and it would be perhaps unethical and cruel to breed these crosses

and release them in the wild in India where they did not exist before. Same

for Zeedonks.

 

But all tigers are descended from a common Siberian stock and it does not

matter if the animals are hybrid or pure bred.

 

I have said it, and I am saying it again, that there is no hard and fast

definition of what a species is, because the general definition of a species

as a group of inidviduals capable of breeding with one another breaks down

in several cases. It is popularly said that hybrids are incapable of

breeding and are sterile. This is not always true for there have been

fertile mules and many, many hybrid tigers have reproduced. Also

Tigons(Tiger X Lion) have bred with male lions in Alipore Zoo.

 

Please also note that hybridisation occurs naturally in the wild and is part

of an evolutionary process and it was observed by Charles Darwin himself

when he indulged in experiments on cross breeding pigeons. Pretty common in

wild birds. See here :

 

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Auk/v115n02/p0281-p0283.pdf

I would also like to add that hybridisation may at some point of time be an

option to save an otherwise pure species. This happened in the case of the

Dusky Seaside Sparrow in Florida when it was suggested to the US Fish and

Wildlife Service to mate the last remaining specimens with a related species

to save it from extinction. A comprehensive account is given in Gerald

Durrell's book, 'The Ark's Anniversary' and you will also get stuff on this

aspect of hybridisation on the net. It has also been suggested that the

Asiatic Lion is so genetically crippled that it may only survive by the

introduction of African genes. I have already posted the paper written on

this by geneticist Nicky Xavier and this view was echoed when I was taught

by Michael Buford of the Institute of Zoology in London.

 

I would tend to agree with you that artificial introductions of species are

better avoided, especially when those species would never meet in the wild

in natural circumstances. But in the case of tigers I disagree because it

has been widely reported that due to Billy Arjan Singh's introduction of

Siberian genes in Dudhwa, the noble Bengal blood has been tainted. Many

conservationists regret this mixture which they view as pollution of genes,

I rejoice in it since I see it as invigoration of existing genetic make up.

Carl Sagan, who knew as much biology as any existing biologist, once

commented, " Biology as a subject is more like history than physics. " What an

apt description, since physics, chemistry and mathematics tend to be exact

sciences whereas biology is not.

 

Some more examples for you and everyone to mull. Florida Panther in USA.

There is a debate going on for many years as to how different or similar

that animal is from pumas found elsewhere. I say, how does it matter? If

that animal is going through a genetic bottleneck, allow it to hybridise

with pumas from other regions so it can be saved.

 

African Elephants. African Bush Elephant and African Forest Elephant.

Previously subspecies, now considered as separate species. Leopards. Many

subspecies, no consensus. Asian Elephants. Suggestions of different species

and subspecies in Sri Lanka and Indonesia. African Lions. Pathera leo leo

and Panthera leo massaica.

 

Taxonomy is a funny exercise. Animals get named and renamed by scientists,

definitions change and all of a sudden species get clumped together or are

split as the case may be. In many cases such moves are purely arbitrary.

Yes, I do believe the tigers in the Thailand Tiger Temple have intrinsic

value, pure bred, hybrid, lame, blind, genetically defective or whatever the

case may be. I also do not see cut and dried distinctions between animal

rights, animal welfare and conservation. This is not to say that there are

no legitimate causes for concern regarding the management of that

institution, there certainly are and ideally tigers should never be

incarcerated at all, in a temple or anywhere else. So if your work is

challenging that aspect of tiger survival, I am in complete concurrence.

 

I am really grateful to you and Merritt for writing on this since this is a

topic close to my heart and I think it is one of the biggest moral issues

facing humanity, ie., the question whether some individuals are genetically

superior to others and on what basis and if that perceived superiority makes

the other groups less entitled to compassion.

 

May I also add that the word 'hybrid' is often substituted for 'mongrel' and

you will doubtless realise that it has a pejorative connotation since

mongrels are considered to be genetically impure. Pedigree dogs and stray

dogs and the difference in treatment. One pure, the other impure.

 

Of course you do not need my sympathy. You deserve my respect. Just as all

life does,

not only from me but from all human beings.

 

If there is any other aspect of hybridisation you wish to discuss, I would

be happy to do so.

 

Best regards,

 

 

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 2:48 PM, <edwin.wiek wrote:

 

> Hi Subhobroto,

>

>

>

> Nobody preaches hatred against hybrid animals, what a complete nonsense,

> what have you been smoking? The point is that the TT is saying it can

> release the tigers back into the wild which means the tigers in its care

> have conservation value. And the answer is they don't have any value for

> conservation because they don't boost the gene pool and they can't

> interbreed with wild tigers. You here believe they have value because they

> are animals and they have a right to live. That's a different argument but

> it’s not a conservation argument however an animal welfare argument. When

> people decide to breed hybrids for the sake of conservation of the wild

> population they are fooling themselves and others alike. What’s next? Ligers

> breeding for India? Or what about Zedonks for the African continent?

> Introduction of new species while we can hardly protect those that are there

> already makes no (scientific) sense!

>

>

>

> I also do not need your sympathy, but the tigers do. Somehow I do feel that

> the saving of people is unnecessary from a scientific point of view however,

> but I will not deny them the right to live either.

>

>

>

> Edwin Wiek

>

> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

> 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

> Amphoe Thayang

> 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

> Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

> Mobile: +66-8-90600906

> http://www.wfft.org

> SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

> FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

>

> ------------------------------

>

> ** aapn [aapn ] *On Behalf Of

*

> Ghosh

> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 03, 2010 11:55 AM

> *To:* AAPN List

> *Subject:* Re: (TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

>

>

>

>

>

> (All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

> commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

> hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild is

> considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. )

>

> As much as I sympathise with you Edwin, I must say again that I do not

> and never will do, to this racist hybridisation theory.

> BIOLOGISTS

> DO NOT KNOW WHAT DEFINES A HYBRID AND THEY SHOULD HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND

> THE

> HONESTY TO ADMIT THIS LIMITATION OF THE SCIENCE RATHER THAN CONSTANTLY

> PREACH HATRED FOR HYBRID ANIMALS. ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE HYBRID, SO ACCORDING

> TO THIS THEORY SAVING HUMANS IS A CONSERVATION CRIME, RIGHT? I AM

> ABSOLUTELY

> AMAZED AND ASTOUNDED AT THE DEAFENING SILENCE OF ANIMAL PROTECTIONISTS ON

> THIS HYBRIDISATION ISSUE. THIS KIND OF PREJUDICED HATE MONGERING CAN ONLY

> BE

> TERMED AS SHAMEFUL AND DESPICABLE.

>

> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:19 PM, <edwin.wiek<edwin.wiek%40wfft.org>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Tiger temple sues conservationists and newspaper reporter over complaints

> > of

> > illegal wildlife possession, animal torture and alleged illegal trade in

> > tigers with foreign countries without permit.

> >

> > Three local conservationists are being handed over by police to court on

> > Wednesday the 3rd of February at 10:00AM at the provincial court of

> > Kanchanaburi Province. The three are being accused of defamation by the

> > infamous Tiger Temple after a news article in the Thai Post newspaper in

> > April 2009 where accusation were made about animal torture, illegal

> > wildlife

> > trade and possession taking place at the tiger temple. All three

> > conservationists and animal welfare experts were quoted in this article

> as

> > having a derogatory opinion of the tiger temple.

> >

> > At the Tiger temple (Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua Yannasampanno, Kanchanaburi)

> > hundreds of foreign tourists daily visit the zoo to see and make pictures

> > with the tigers. Entrance fee is 500 baht (15 US dollars) per person

> while

> > making " special photos " costs 1,000 baht (30 dollars) extra. For a

> morning

> > experience people pay 4,500 baht (120 US dollars) per person to feed the

> > cubs and watch the cub-exercise session.

> >

> > At least a dozen tigers are being dragged from their small enclosures

> every

> > afternoon down to a sun-backed hot valley to pose with tourists. These

> > tigers are extremely lethargic and allegations have been made that they

> are

> > being been drugged. When tigers are not obedient before, during or after

> > the

> > photo-session they are sprayed by the keepers with urine from bottles in

> > their eyes and faces and/or hit with wooden sticks on their backs and

> > heads.

> > All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

> > commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

> > hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild

> is

> > considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. In the

> > past

> > years several tigers from the tiger temple have mysteriously disappeared

> > once mature, and some when there were excess cubs. The copy of a contract

> > was found in 2008 where the tiger temple agreed to send tigers to an

> > illegal

> > tiger farm in Laos, signed by the tiger farmer, the abbot of the temple

> and

> > a member of the temple board. The export or exchange of protected

> wildlife

> > such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES

> > (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species). The Department

> > of

> > National Parks, Plants and Wildlife has never issued a permit to the

> tiger

> > temple to exchange or export tigers. As a matter of fact the tigers at

> the

> > temple have been confiscated in 2002 as they were illegally obtained, but

> > were allowed to stay at the temple as the authorities had no shelter

> > available to care for the tigers while the authorities were looking in to

> > the legal case. A zoo permit was issued on a plot of land next to the

> > temple

> > on the name of a commercial enterprise in July 2009, however nothing has

> > been built there to this date and the tigers are currently still being

> > exploited on temple grounds.

> >

> > Comments and complaints made by many conservationists and animal welfare

> > activists were made to make people aware about the torture, illegal trade

> > and the real value to conservation and to make a stop to the suffering of

> > animals.

> >

> > People being charged:

> >

> > Edwin Wiek

> >

> > Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand (WFFT)

> >

> > Tel: 08-90600906

> >

> > edwin.wiek <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org> <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org>

>

> >

> > Web: www.wfft.org <http://www.wfft.org/>

> >

> > Dr. Surapon Duangkae

> >

> > Wildlife Fund Thailand under Royal Patronage

> >

> > Tel: 08-67790454

> >

> > suraponwft <suraponwft%40gmail.com> <suraponwft%40gmail.com>

>

> >

> > Mr. Sawan Sangbunlang

> >

> > Thai Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

> >

> > Tel: 08-19347374

> >

> > info <info%40thaispca.org> <info%40thaispca.org>

>

> >

> > Web: www.thaispca.org <http://www.thaispca.org/>

> >

> > Websites on the tiger temple:

> >

> > www.tigertempletruths.org <http://www.tigertempletruths.org/>

> (informative

> > website)

> >

> > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=293971072672 (discussion group)

> >

> > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=95165464756 (discussion group)

> >

> > CITES website www.cites.org <http://www.cites.org/>

> >

> > Edwin Wiek

> >

> > Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

> > 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

> > Amphoe Thayang

> > 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

> > Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

> > Mobile: +66-8-90600906

> > <http://www.wfft.org/> http://www.wfft.org

> > SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

> > FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

> > http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

We all deserve the right to live except the " cigarrettes " .

 

On 2/3/10, edwin.wiek <edwin.wiek wrote:

> Hi Subhobroto,

>

>

>

> Nobody preaches hatred against hybrid animals, what a complete nonsense,

> what have you been smoking? The point is that the TT is saying it can

> release the tigers back into the wild which means the tigers in its care

> have conservation value. And the answer is they don't have any value for

> conservation because they don't boost the gene pool and they can't

> interbreed with wild tigers. You here believe they have value because they

> are animals and they have a right to live. That's a different argument but

> it's not a conservation argument however an animal welfare argument. When

> people decide to breed hybrids for the sake of conservation of the wild

> population they are fooling themselves and others alike. What's next? Ligers

> breeding for India? Or what about Zedonks for the African continent?

> Introduction of new species while we can hardly protect those that are there

> already makes no (scientific) sense!

>

>

>

> I also do not need your sympathy, but the tigers do. Somehow I do feel that

> the saving of people is unnecessary from a scientific point of view however,

> but I will not deny them the right to live either.

>

>

>

> Edwin Wiek

>

> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

> 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

> Amphoe Thayang

> 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

> Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

> Mobile: +66-8-90600906

> <http://www.wfft.org/> http://www.wfft.org

> SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

> FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

> http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

>

> _____

>

> aapn [aapn ] On Behalf Of

>

> Wednesday, February 03, 2010 11:55 AM

> AAPN List

> Re: (TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

>

>

>

>

>

> (All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

> commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

> hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild is

> considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. )

>

> As much as I sympathise with you Edwin, I must say again that I do not

> and never will do, to this racist hybridisation theory. BIOLOGISTS

> DO NOT KNOW WHAT DEFINES A HYBRID AND THEY SHOULD HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND THE

> HONESTY TO ADMIT THIS LIMITATION OF THE SCIENCE RATHER THAN CONSTANTLY

> PREACH HATRED FOR HYBRID ANIMALS. ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE HYBRID, SO ACCORDING

> TO THIS THEORY SAVING HUMANS IS A CONSERVATION CRIME, RIGHT? I AM ABSOLUTELY

> AMAZED AND ASTOUNDED AT THE DEAFENING SILENCE OF ANIMAL PROTECTIONISTS ON

> THIS HYBRIDISATION ISSUE. THIS KIND OF PREJUDICED HATE MONGERING CAN ONLY BE

> TERMED AS SHAMEFUL AND DESPICABLE.

>

> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:19 PM, <edwin.wiek (AT) wfft (DOT)

> <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org> org> wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Tiger temple sues conservationists and newspaper reporter over complaints

>> of

>> illegal wildlife possession, animal torture and alleged illegal trade in

>> tigers with foreign countries without permit.

>>

>> Three local conservationists are being handed over by police to court on

>> Wednesday the 3rd of February at 10:00AM at the provincial court of

>> Kanchanaburi Province. The three are being accused of defamation by the

>> infamous Tiger Temple after a news article in the Thai Post newspaper in

>> April 2009 where accusation were made about animal torture, illegal

>> wildlife

>> trade and possession taking place at the tiger temple. All three

>> conservationists and animal welfare experts were quoted in this article as

>> having a derogatory opinion of the tiger temple.

>>

>> At the Tiger temple (Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua Yannasampanno, Kanchanaburi)

>> hundreds of foreign tourists daily visit the zoo to see and make pictures

>> with the tigers. Entrance fee is 500 baht (15 US dollars) per person while

>> making " special photos " costs 1,000 baht (30 dollars) extra. For a morning

>> experience people pay 4,500 baht (120 US dollars) per person to feed the

>> cubs and watch the cub-exercise session.

>>

>> At least a dozen tigers are being dragged from their small enclosures

> every

>> afternoon down to a sun-backed hot valley to pose with tourists. These

>> tigers are extremely lethargic and allegations have been made that they

> are

>> being been drugged. When tigers are not obedient before, during or after

>> the

>> photo-session they are sprayed by the keepers with urine from bottles in

>> their eyes and faces and/or hit with wooden sticks on their backs and

>> heads.

>> All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

>> commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

>> hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild

> is

>> considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. In the

>> past

>> years several tigers from the tiger temple have mysteriously disappeared

>> once mature, and some when there were excess cubs. The copy of a contract

>> was found in 2008 where the tiger temple agreed to send tigers to an

>> illegal

>> tiger farm in Laos, signed by the tiger farmer, the abbot of the temple

> and

>> a member of the temple board. The export or exchange of protected wildlife

>> such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES

>> (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species). The Department

>> of

>> National Parks, Plants and Wildlife has never issued a permit to the tiger

>> temple to exchange or export tigers. As a matter of fact the tigers at the

>> temple have been confiscated in 2002 as they were illegally obtained, but

>> were allowed to stay at the temple as the authorities had no shelter

>> available to care for the tigers while the authorities were looking in to

>> the legal case. A zoo permit was issued on a plot of land next to the

>> temple

>> on the name of a commercial enterprise in July 2009, however nothing has

>> been built there to this date and the tigers are currently still being

>> exploited on temple grounds.

>>

>> Comments and complaints made by many conservationists and animal welfare

>> activists were made to make people aware about the torture, illegal trade

>> and the real value to conservation and to make a stop to the suffering of

>> animals.

>>

>> People being charged:

>>

>> Edwin Wiek

>>

>> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand (WFFT)

>>

>> Tel: 08-90600906

>>

>> edwin.wiek (AT) wfft (DOT) <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org> org

> <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org>

>>

>> Web: www.wfft.org <http://www.wfft. <http://www.wfft.org/> org/>

>>

>> Dr. Surapon Duangkae

>>

>> Wildlife Fund Thailand under Royal Patronage

>>

>> Tel: 08-67790454

>>

>> suraponwft (AT) gmail (DOT) <suraponwft%40gmail.com> com

> <suraponwft%40gmail.com>

>>

>> Mr. Sawan Sangbunlang

>>

>> Thai Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

>>

>> Tel: 08-19347374

>>

>> info (AT) thaispca (DOT) <info%40thaispca.org> org <info%40thaispca.org>

>>

>> Web: www.thaispca.org <http://www.thaispca <http://www.thaispca.org/>

> .org/>

>>

>> Websites on the tiger temple:

>>

>> www.tigertempletruths.org <http://www.tigertem

> <http://www.tigertempletruths.org/> pletruths.org/> (informative

>> website)

>>

>> http://www.facebook <http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=293971072672>

> .com/group.php?gid=293971072672 (discussion group)

>>

>> http://www.facebook <http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=95165464756>

> .com/group.php?gid=95165464756 (discussion group)

>>

>> CITES website www.cites.org <http://www.cites. <http://www.cites.org/>

> org/>

>>

>> Edwin Wiek

>>

>> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

>> 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

>> Amphoe Thayang

>> 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

>> Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

>> Mobile: +66-8-90600906

>> <http://www.wfft. <http://www.wfft.org/> org/> http://www.wfft.

> <http://www.wfft.org> org

>> SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

>> FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook

> <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

> .com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

>> http://www.facebook <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

> .com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

>>

>>