(TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

[Guest guest]

I was looking at the pic in the article

 

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2010/2010-02-03-01.html

 

 

 

What I am seeing is a monk trying to break up a fight between 2 tigers with

a stick that is not a match for tigers paws strength.

 

Then I see a monk holding tiger's tail, tigers do it to each other in play

with teeth. Are there more unedited pictures and footage we could see?

 

 

 

As for the urine, I never heard of that, is that humane urine they spray on

tigers and what is the purpose behind it?... to establish respect/dominance,

since that is how animals do it, spray for territory...

 

 

 

Also, what is a difference to the animal itself between being killed on farm

for parts and being killed in a zoo because it is not pure, we humans can

tell the difference as we can understand concept, but to the animal? Why is

it ok to kill them in zoos but not in farms? Just playing devils advocate

here.

 

 

 

Also, I am confused why is breeding 2 tiger subspecies called " hybrid " .

Hybrid results when u cross 2 different species, and offsprings are usually

infertile, males . With tigers, we are crossing possibly 2 (man named)

subspecies and offsrpings are perfectly healthy and fertile.

 

 

 

Besides, natural hybridization occurs in the wild, box turtles come to mind,

or lynx/bobcat

 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g7222j774q37wj17/

 

 

 

If mother nature is ok with hybrids, why are some so called conservationists

being animal racists and hating cross between tiger subspecies enough to

kill them? Seems like it is more about politics and donations for supposed

pure tigers as opposed to true animal welfare and conservation. I do believe

generic tigers are just as beautiful and useful as so called pure

subspecies.

 

 

 

Zuzana Kukol

 

www.rexano.org <http://www.rexano.org/>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

aapn [aapn ] On Behalf Of

 

 

 

Wednesday, February 03, 2010 6:31 PM

 

AAPN List

 

Re: (TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

 

 

 

Dear Edwin,

 

Thank you for responding since Since coming to Delhi I

 

have been smoking a lot of cigarettes but I would not say it has affected my

 

thinking much.(Please don't tell my mother, she detests smoking.)

 

 

 

Kindly permit me to expand. What is a hybrid ? All tigers originate in

 

Siberia and therefore the genetic makeup, whatever may be the case for these

 

animals in Thailand is irrelevant to the argument at hand for either

 

conservation or welfare.

 

 

 

You say nobody preaches hatred against hybrid animals, well many zoo

 

community members do. There have been several cases in which notable zoo

 

figures have advocated the systematic extermination of hybrid animals.

 

Kindly see this link for full story:

 

 

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2116207.ece

 

 

 

(Extract : Harry Schram, the executive director of the European Association

 

of Zoos and Aquaria (EAZA), said he was unconcerned about zoos killing

 

healthy animals and selling them for stuffing.

 

 

 

He admitted EAZA zoos were being actively encouraged to kill unwanted

 

animals, including tigers, that could not be rehomed elsewhere and

 

especially if their bloodlines were not pure. So-called " hybrid " tigers,

 

which result from crossing two or more of the subspecies, make up the

 

majority of the 10,000 captive tigers worldwide.

 

 

 

" For hybrid tigers it is almost impossible, they take up the space, they tie

 

up keeper time and food that could be invested in endangered species, so we

 

are certainly not encouraging our members to keep these animals when there

 

is an alternative of euthanasia, " said Schram.

 

 

 

" I am probably more concerned about the species issue than about the

 

individual animal but I know in the UK things are a little bit different in

 

that there are lots of feelings about animals as individuals. " )

 

 

 

Colin Tudge, writing in 'Last Animals At the Zoo' categorically stated that

 

we ought to kill at least some hybrid animals for " conservation. " He cited

 

spider monkeys as an example.

 

Let me cite another example. At one point of time, it was discovered that

 

Orang Utans in USA were hybrids between Sumatran and Bornean. This led to

 

many institutions dumping their animals on roadside slum menageries despite

 

the fact that almost no visitor would notice the difference. Is that hate

 

mongering or not considering that Orang Utans were classified as a single

 

species at some point of time? Talking about release of hybrid animals, I

 

have absolutely no issues if hybrid(SumatranX Bornean) Orang Utans are

 

released in the wild.

 

 

 

You say the Thai temple tigers do not boost the gene pool and they cannot

 

breed with wild tigers. Where is the evidence that this is so ? Who has

 

carried the genetic study of the Thai tigers I would like to know and what

 

research lies at the bottom of this claim?

 

 

 

If a captive tiger cannot add to the gene pool, how could Billy Arjan

 

Singh's Tara(Bengal X Siberian) survive in Dudhwa and produce healthy

 

offspring?

 

 

 

Ligers are a different matter because lions and tigers do not interact in

 

the wild and it would be perhaps unethical and cruel to breed these crosses

 

and release them in the wild in India where they did not exist before. Same

 

for Zeedonks.

 

 

 

But all tigers are descended from a common Siberian stock and it does not

 

matter if the animals are hybrid or pure bred.

 

 

 

I have said it, and I am saying it again, that there is no hard and fast

 

definition of what a species is, because the general definition of a species

 

as a group of inidviduals capable of breeding with one another breaks down

 

in several cases. It is popularly said that hybrids are incapable of

 

breeding and are sterile. This is not always true for there have been

 

fertile mules and many, many hybrid tigers have reproduced. Also

 

Tigons(Tiger X Lion) have bred with male lions in Alipore Zoo.

 

 

 

Please also note that hybridisation occurs naturally in the wild and is part

 

of an evolutionary process and it was observed by Charles Darwin himself

 

when he indulged in experiments on cross breeding pigeons. Pretty common in

 

wild birds. See here :

 

 

 

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Auk/v115n02/p0281-p0283.pdf

 

I would also like to add that hybridisation may at some point of time be an

 

option to save an otherwise pure species. This happened in the case of the

 

Dusky Seaside Sparrow in Florida when it was suggested to the US Fish and

 

Wildlife Service to mate the last remaining specimens with a related species

 

to save it from extinction. A comprehensive account is given in Gerald

 

Durrell's book, 'The Ark's Anniversary' and you will also get stuff on this

 

aspect of hybridisation on the net. It has also been suggested that the

 

Asiatic Lion is so genetically crippled that it may only survive by the

 

introduction of African genes. I have already posted the paper written on

 

this by geneticist Nicky Xavier and this view was echoed when I was taught

 

by Michael Buford of the Institute of Zoology in London.

 

 

 

I would tend to agree with you that artificial introductions of species are

 

better avoided, especially when those species would never meet in the wild

 

in natural circumstances. But in the case of tigers I disagree because it

 

has been widely reported that due to Billy Arjan Singh's introduction of

 

Siberian genes in Dudhwa, the noble Bengal blood has been tainted. Many

 

conservationists regret this mixture which they view as pollution of genes,

 

I rejoice in it since I see it as invigoration of existing genetic make up.

 

Carl Sagan, who knew as much biology as any existing biologist, once

 

commented, " Biology as a subject is more like history than physics. " What an

 

apt description, since physics, chemistry and mathematics tend to be exact

 

sciences whereas biology is not.

 

 

 

Some more examples for you and everyone to mull. Florida Panther in USA.

 

There is a debate going on for many years as to how different or similar

 

that animal is from pumas found elsewhere. I say, how does it matter? If

 

that animal is going through a genetic bottleneck, allow it to hybridise

 

with pumas from other regions so it can be saved.

 

 

 

African Elephants. African Bush Elephant and African Forest Elephant.

 

Previously subspecies, now considered as separate species. Leopards. Many

 

subspecies, no consensus. Asian Elephants. Suggestions of different species

 

and subspecies in Sri Lanka and Indonesia. African Lions. Pathera leo leo

 

and Panthera leo massaica.

 

 

 

Taxonomy is a funny exercise. Animals get named and renamed by scientists,

 

definitions change and all of a sudden species get clumped together or are

 

split as the case may be. In many cases such moves are purely arbitrary.

 

Yes, I do believe the tigers in the Thailand Tiger Temple have intrinsic

 

value, pure bred, hybrid, lame, blind, genetically defective or whatever the

 

case may be. I also do not see cut and dried distinctions between animal

 

rights, animal welfare and conservation. This is not to say that there are

 

no legitimate causes for concern regarding the management of that

 

institution, there certainly are and ideally tigers should never be

 

incarcerated at all, in a temple or anywhere else. So if your work is

 

challenging that aspect of tiger survival, I am in complete concurrence.

 

 

 

I am really grateful to you and Merritt for writing on this since this is a

 

topic close to my heart and I think it is one of the biggest moral issues

 

facing humanity, ie., the question whether some individuals are genetically

 

superior to others and on what basis and if that perceived superiority makes

 

the other groups less entitled to compassion.

 

 

 

May I also add that the word 'hybrid' is often substituted for 'mongrel' and

 

you will doubtless realise that it has a pejorative connotation since

 

mongrels are considered to be genetically impure. Pedigree dogs and stray

 

dogs and the difference in treatment. One pure, the other impure.

 

 

 

Of course you do not need my sympathy. You deserve my respect. Just as all

 

life does,

 

not only from me but from all human beings.

 

 

 

If there is any other aspect of hybridisation you wish to discuss, I would

 

be happy to do so.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 2:48 PM, <edwin.wiek wrote:

 

 

 

> Hi Subhobroto,

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Nobody preaches hatred against hybrid animals, what a complete nonsense,

 

> what have you been smoking? The point is that the TT is saying it can

 

> release the tigers back into the wild which means the tigers in its care

 

> have conservation value. And the answer is they don't have any value for

 

> conservation because they don't boost the gene pool and they can't

 

> interbreed with wild tigers. You here believe they have value because they

 

> are animals and they have a right to live. That's a different argument but

 

> it's not a conservation argument however an animal welfare argument. When

 

> people decide to breed hybrids for the sake of conservation of the wild

 

> population they are fooling themselves and others alike. What's next?

 

Ligers

 

> breeding for India? Or what about Zedonks for the African continent?

 

> Introduction of new species while we can hardly protect those that are

 

there

 

> already makes no (scientific) sense!

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I also do not need your sympathy, but the tigers do. Somehow I do feel

 

that

 

> the saving of people is unnecessary from a scientific point of view

 

however,

 

> but I will not deny them the right to live either.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Edwin Wiek

 

>

 

> Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

 

> 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

 

> Amphoe Thayang

 

> 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

 

> Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

 

> Mobile: +66-8-90600906

 

> http://www.wfft.org

 

> SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

 

> FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

 

>

 

> ------------------------------

 

>

 

> ** aapn [aapn ] *On Behalf Of

 

*

 

> Ghosh

 

> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 03, 2010 11:55 AM

 

> *To:* AAPN List

 

> *Subject:* Re: (TH) Thailand's Tiger temple sues conservationists

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> (All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

 

> commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation of

 

> hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild

 

is

 

> considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. )

 

>

 

> As much as I sympathise with you Edwin, I must say again that I do not

 

> and never will do, to this racist hybridisation theory.

 

> BIOLOGISTS

 

> DO NOT KNOW WHAT DEFINES A HYBRID AND THEY SHOULD HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND

 

> THE

 

> HONESTY TO ADMIT THIS LIMITATION OF THE SCIENCE RATHER THAN CONSTANTLY

 

> PREACH HATRED FOR HYBRID ANIMALS. ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE HYBRID, SO

 

ACCORDING

 

> TO THIS THEORY SAVING HUMANS IS A CONSERVATION CRIME, RIGHT? I AM

 

> ABSOLUTELY

 

> AMAZED AND ASTOUNDED AT THE DEAFENING SILENCE OF ANIMAL PROTECTIONISTS ON

 

> THIS HYBRIDISATION ISSUE. THIS KIND OF PREJUDICED HATE MONGERING CAN ONLY

 

> BE

 

> TERMED AS SHAMEFUL AND DESPICABLE.

 

>

 

> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:19 PM,

 

<edwin.wiek<edwin.wiek%40wfft.org>>

 

> wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Tiger temple sues conservationists and newspaper reporter over

 

complaints

 

> > of

 

> > illegal wildlife possession, animal torture and alleged illegal trade in

 

> > tigers with foreign countries without permit.

 

> >

 

> > Three local conservationists are being handed over by police to court on

 

> > Wednesday the 3rd of February at 10:00AM at the provincial court of

 

> > Kanchanaburi Province. The three are being accused of defamation by the

 

> > infamous Tiger Temple after a news article in the Thai Post newspaper in

 

> > April 2009 where accusation were made about animal torture, illegal

 

> > wildlife

 

> > trade and possession taking place at the tiger temple. All three

 

> > conservationists and animal welfare experts were quoted in this article

 

> as

 

> > having a derogatory opinion of the tiger temple.

 

> >

 

> > At the Tiger temple (Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua Yannasampanno, Kanchanaburi)

 

> > hundreds of foreign tourists daily visit the zoo to see and make

 

pictures

 

> > with the tigers. Entrance fee is 500 baht (15 US dollars) per person

 

> while

 

> > making " special photos " costs 1,000 baht (30 dollars) extra. For a

 

> morning

 

> > experience people pay 4,500 baht (120 US dollars) per person to feed the

 

> > cubs and watch the cub-exercise session.

 

> >

 

> > At least a dozen tigers are being dragged from their small enclosures

 

> every

 

> > afternoon down to a sun-backed hot valley to pose with tourists. These

 

> > tigers are extremely lethargic and allegations have been made that they

 

> are

 

> > being been drugged. When tigers are not obedient before, during or after

 

> > the

 

> > photo-session they are sprayed by the keepers with urine from bottles in

 

> > their eyes and faces and/or hit with wooden sticks on their backs and

 

> > heads.

 

> > All tigers at the Tiger Temple are hybrid tigers that originated from a

 

> > commercial tiger farm in Ratchburi province. The value to conservation

 

of

 

> > hybrid wildlife is zero. The release of hybrid wildlife back to the wild

 

> is

 

> > considered a biological crime by conservation experts worldwide. In the

 

> > past

 

> > years several tigers from the tiger temple have mysteriously disappeared

 

> > once mature, and some when there were excess cubs. The copy of a

 

contract

 

> > was found in 2008 where the tiger temple agreed to send tigers to an

 

> > illegal

 

> > tiger farm in Laos, signed by the tiger farmer, the abbot of the temple

 

> and

 

> > a member of the temple board. The export or exchange of protected

 

> wildlife

 

> > such as tigers is illegal by Thai law and the international treaty CITES

 

> > (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species). The

 

Department

 

> > of

 

> > National Parks, Plants and Wildlife has never issued a permit to the

 

> tiger

 

> > temple to exchange or export tigers. As a matter of fact the tigers at

 

> the

 

> > temple have been confiscated in 2002 as they were illegally obtained,

 

but

 

> > were allowed to stay at the temple as the authorities had no shelter

 

> > available to care for the tigers while the authorities were looking in

 

to

 

> > the legal case. A zoo permit was issued on a plot of land next to the

 

> > temple

 

> > on the name of a commercial enterprise in July 2009, however nothing has

 

> > been built there to this date and the tigers are currently still being

 

> > exploited on temple grounds.

 

> >

 

> > Comments and complaints made by many conservationists and animal welfare

 

> > activists were made to make people aware about the torture, illegal

 

trade

 

> > and the real value to conservation and to make a stop to the suffering

 

of

 

> > animals.

 

> >

 

> > People being charged:

 

> >

 

> > Edwin Wiek

 

> >

 

> > Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand (WFFT)

 

> >

 

> > Tel: 08-90600906

 

> >

 

> > edwin.wiek <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org> <edwin.wiek%40wfft.org>

 

>

 

> >

 

> > Web: www.wfft.org <http://www.wfft.org/>

 

> >

 

> > Dr. Surapon Duangkae

 

> >

 

> > Wildlife Fund Thailand under Royal Patronage

 

> >

 

> > Tel: 08-67790454

 

> >

 

> > suraponwft <suraponwft%40gmail.com> <suraponwft%40gmail.com>

 

>

 

> >

 

> > Mr. Sawan Sangbunlang

 

> >

 

> > Thai Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals

 

> >

 

> > Tel: 08-19347374

 

> >

 

> > info <info%40thaispca.org> <info%40thaispca.org>

 

>

 

> >

 

> > Web: www.thaispca.org <http://www.thaispca.org/>

 

> >

 

> > Websites on the tiger temple:

 

> >

 

> > www.tigertempletruths.org <http://www.tigertempletruths.org/>

 

> (informative

 

> > website)

 

> >

 

> > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=293971072672 (discussion group)

 

> >

 

> > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=95165464756 (discussion group)

 

> >

 

> > CITES website www.cites.org <http://www.cites.org/>

 

> >

 

> > Edwin Wiek

 

> >

 

> > Wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand

 

> > 108 moo 6, Tambon Thamairuak

 

> > Amphoe Thayang

 

> > 76130 Petchaburi THAILAND

 

> > Tel/Fax: +66-32-458363

 

> > Mobile: +66-8-90600906

 

> > <http://www.wfft.org/> http://www.wfft.org

 

> > SKYPE: wildlife_rescue

 

> > FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation>

 

> > http://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation

 

> >

 

> >

[Guest guest]

Edwin I did not read anything about dislike for hybrids in your post.

If what you say is correct then I thank you so much for doing

something about it instead of turning a blind eye. I am sure the

tigers appreciate your help as well.If you feel that letters may help,

please let me know as I am willing to help you.

 

Thanks