Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Aside from his tremendous blind spot when it comes to the ethics of eating, I like what Pollan says here. __ " To reclaim this much control over one's food, to take it back from industry and science, is no small thing; indeed, in our time cooking from scratch and growing any of your own food qualify as subversive acts. " http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/jan/08/health.foodanddrink How to get back to real food, Michael Pollan Tuesday January 8 2008 In the second and final extract from his new book, Michael Pollan says we need to rediscover the simple rules for healthy eating. Here, he gives his recipe for reclaiming control over our disastrous diets The first time I heard the advice to " just eat food " was in a speech by the nutritionist and author Joan Gussow, and it baffled me. Of course you should eat food - what else is there to eat? But Gussow, who grows much of her own food on a flood-prone finger of land jutting into the Hudson River, refuses to dignify most of the products for sale in the supermarket with that title. " In the 34 years I've been in the field of nutrition, " she said, " I have watched real food disappear from large areas of the supermarket and from much of the rest of the eating world. " Taking its place has been an unending stream of food-like substitutes - " products constructed largely around commerce and hope, supported by frighteningly little actual knowledge " . Real food is still out there, however, still being grown and even occasionally sold in the supermarket. Here are a few rules of thumb to help you recognise it - and then make the most of it. Don't eat anything that your great-grandmother wouldn't recognise as food Why your great-grandmother? Because at this point your mother, and possibly even your grandmother, are as confused as the rest of us; to be safe we need to go back at least a couple generations, to a time before the advent of most modern foods. Some nutritionists recommend going back even further. John Yudkin, a British nutritionist whose early alarms about the dangers of refined carbohydrates were overlooked in the 60s and 70s, once advised: " Just don't eat anything your Neolithic ancestors wouldn't have recognised and you'll be OK. " What would shopping this way mean in the supermarket? Well, imagine your great-grandmother at your side as you go down the aisles. You're standing together in front of the dairy cabinet. She picks up a pack of Go-Gurt Portable Yogurt tubes - and has no idea what this could possibly be. Is it a food or a toothpaste? You could tell her it is just yoghurt in a squirtable form, yet if she read the ingredients label she would have every reason to doubt that was the case. Sure, there is some yoghurt in there, but there are also a dozen other things that aren't remotely yoghurt-like, ingredients she would probably fail to recognise as foods of any kind, including high-fructose corn syrup, modified corn starch, kosher gelatin, carrageenan, tri-calcium phosphate, natural and artificial flavours, vitamins, and so forth. How did yoghurt, which once consisted simply of milk inoculated with a bacterial culture, ever get to be so complicated? Is a product such as Go-Gurt Portable Yogurt still a wholefood? A food of any kind? Avoid food products that make health claims For a product to make health claims on its package, it must first have a package, so right off the bat it is more likely to be a processed than a whole food. Generally speaking, it is only the big food companies that have the wherewithal to secure officially approved health claims for their products and then trumpet them to the world. Recently, however, some fruits and nuts have begun boasting about their health-enhancing properties, and there will surely be more as each crop council scrounges together the money to commission its own scientific study. Because all plants contain antioxidants, all these studies are guaranteed to find something on which to base a health-oriented marketing campaign. But for the most part it is the products of food science that make the boldest claims, and these are often founded on incomplete or erroneous science. Don't forget that trans-fat-rich margarine, one of the first industrial foods to claim it was healthier than the traditional food it replaced, turned out to cause heart attacks. Get out of the supermarket The surest way to escape the overprocessed, life-shortening western diet is simply to depart the realms it rules: the supermarket, the convenience store, the fast-food outlet. It is hard to eat badly from a farmers' market, from a weekly organic vegetable box or from your garden. It is true that most farmers' markets operate only seasonally, and you won't find everything you need there. But nor will you find elaborately processed food products, long lists of unpronounceable ingredients, or ageing food from far away. Eating in season also tends to diversify your diet - because you can't buy strawberries or broccoli or potatoes 12 months of the year, you will find yourself experimenting with other foods when they come into the market. The weekly veg box does an even better job of forcing you out of your rut because you will find things in your delivery that you would never buy on your own. If you are concerned about chemicals in your produce, simply ask the farmer at the market how he or she deals with pests and fertility and begin the sort of conversation that, in the end, is the best guarantee of quality in your food. So here is a subclause to the get-out-of-the-supermarket rule: Shake the hand that feeds you. Eat mostly plants, especially leaves Scientists may disagree about what is so good about eating plants - is it the antioxidants in them? The fibre? The omega-3 fatty acids? - but they do agree that plants are probably really good for you, and certainly can't hurt. Without plants, for example, we would be hard-pressed to get enough vitamin C, an essential nutrient that humans long ago lost the ability to synthesise themselves. Like other antioxidants, vitamin C contributes to our health in at least two important ways. Several of the body's routine processes, including cell metabolism and the defence mechanism of inflammation, produce " oxygen radicals " - atoms of oxygen with an extra unpaired electron that make them particularly eager to react with other molecules in ways that can create all kinds of health problems, including cancer. Antioxidants such as vitamin C harmlessly absorb and stabilise these free radicals before they can do their mischief. But antioxidants do something else for us as well: they stimulate the liver to produce the enzymes necessary to break down the antioxidant itself, enzymes that, once produced, go on to break down other compounds, including whatever toxins resemble the antioxidant. This is one reason it is important to eat as many different kinds of plants as possible: they all have different antioxidants and so help the body eliminate different toxins. The advantages of a plant-based diet go beyond whatever is in the plants: because plant foods - with the exception of seeds - are less energy-dense than most of the other things you might eat, by eating a plant-based diet you will probably consume fewer calories (which is itself protective against many chronic diseases). As for meat, we don't need to eat it - with the exception of vitamin B12, every nutrient found in meat can be obtained somewhere else. (And the tiny amount of B12 we need is not too hard to come by; it is found in all animal foods and is produced by bacteria, so you obtain B12 from eating dirty or decaying or fermented produce.) But it does supply all the essential amino acids as well as many vitamins and minerals. That said, eating meat in the tremendous quantities that westerners do is probably not a good idea, especially when it comes from a highly industrialised food chain. Several studies point to the conclusion that the more meat there is in your diet - red meat especially - the greater your risk of heart disease and cancer. Thomas Jefferson probably had the right idea when he recommended using meat as a " condiment for the vegetables " . Eat wild foods when you can Two of the most nutritious plants in the world are weeds - fat-hen (also known as lamb's quarters) and purslane - and some of the healthiest traditional diets, such as the Mediterranean, make frequent use of wild greens. These tend to have higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids than their domesticated cousins. Wild animals, too, are worth adding to your diet when you have the opportunity, if you can be sure you are not putting further pressure on endangered species. Game generally has less saturated fat and more omega-3 fatty acids than domesticated animals, because most wild animals eat a diverse diet of plants rather than grain. Wild fish generally have higher levels of omega-3s than farmed fish. To judge by the experience of fish-eating cultures such as the Japanese, adding a few servings of wild fish to the diet each week may lower our risk of heart disease, prolong our lives, and even make us happier. Don't look for the magic bullet in the traditional diet Oceans of ink have been spilled attempting to tease out the components of the Mediterranean diet, hoping to identify the X factor responsible for its healthiness. Is it the olive oil? The fish? The wild greens? The garlic? The nuts? The French ability to break many of the accepted rules of healthy eating with impunity has been variously attributed to the salutary effects of red wine, olive oil, and even foie gras (liver is high in B vitamins and iron). Yet when researchers extract a single food from a diet of proven value, it usually fails to adequately explain why the people living on that diet live longer or have lower rates of heart disease or cancer than those eating a modern western diet. The whole of a dietary pattern is evidently greater than the sum of its parts. Eat less The scientific case for eating a lot less than we presently do is compelling, whether or not you are overweight. Calorie restriction has repeatedly been shown to slow ageing in animals, and some researchers believe it is the single strongest link between a change in the diet and the prevention of cancer. " Eat less " is easier said than done, of course, in a culture of cheap and abundant calories with no deeply rooted set of rules to curb overeating. But other cultures do have such rules and we can try to emulate them. The people of Okinawa, for example, one of the longest-lived and healthiest populations in the world, practise a principle they call hara hachi bu: eat until you are 80% full. How on earth do you know when you're 80% full, however? You'd need to be in closer touch with your senses than many Americans or Britons have become. Brian Wansink, a professor of marketing and nutritional science at Cornell University in the US, once rigged up bowls of soup in a restaurant so they would automatically refill from the bottom. Those given the bottomless bowl ate 73% more soup than the subjects eating from an ordinary bowl; several ate as much as a two pints. When one of these hearty eaters was asked his opinion of the soup, he said: " It's pretty good, and it's pretty filling. " Indeed. Until we learn to attend more closely to our senses, we might be advised to alter the external clues we rely on in eating. Among Wansink's recommendations: serve smaller portions on smaller plates; serve food and beverages from small containers (even if this means repackaging things bought in jumbo sizes); leave detritus on the table - empty bottles, bones, and so forth - so you can see how much you have eaten or drunk, and use glasses that are more vertical than horizontal, since people tend to pour more into squat glasses. Eat meals This sounds almost as ridiculous as " eat food " , but it no longer goes without saying. We are snacking more and eating fewer meals together. Indeed, sociologists report that Americans have added to the traditional big three " eating occasions " - breakfast, lunch and dinner - an as-yet-untitled fourth that lasts all day long: the constant sipping and snacking while watching TV, driving, and so on. One study found that among 18- to 50-year-old Americans, roughly a fifth of all eating now takes place in the car. That one should feel the need to mount a defence of " the meal " is sad, but then who would have thought " food " needed defending? Let's just remember that it is at the dinner table that we socialise and civilise our children. At the dinner table parents can determine portion sizes, model eating and drinking behaviour, and enforce social norms about greed and waste. Shared meals are about much more than fuelling bodies; they are uniquely human institutions where our species developed language and this thing we call culture. Do all your eating at a table No, a desk is not a table. Try not to eat alone Though there is research suggesting that light eaters will eat more when they dine with others (probably because they spend more time at the table), for people prone to overeating, communal meals tend to limit consumption, if only because we're less likely to stuff ourselves when others are watching. This is precisely why so much food marketing is designed to encourage us to eat in front of the TV or in the car: when we eat mindlessly and alone, we eat more. Cook - and, if you can, plant a garden My own vegetable garden is modest in scale - a densely planted patch only about 6m by 3m (20ft by 10ft) - but it yields an astonishing cornucopia of produce, so much so that during the summer months we discontinue our weekly vegetable box and buy little but fruit from the farmers' market. And though we live on a postage-stamp city lot, there is room for a couple of fruit trees too: a lemon, a fig, and a persimmon (in Britain, I suppose we could have plums and cherries). A garden offers the most straightforward solution to the problem of being able to afford high- quality organic produce: the food you grow yourself is fresher than any you can buy, and costs nothing but an hour or two of work each week, plus the price of a few packets of seed. When your harvest lands on the kitchen counter, when you start cleaning and cutting and chopping, you are thinking about a dozen different things - what to make, how to make it - but nutrition, or even health, is probably not high on the list. It is hard when contemplating such produce to think in terms of nutrients or chemical compounds; no, this is food, so fresh it is still alive, communicating with us by scent and colour and taste. To reclaim this much control over one's food, to take it back from industry and science, is no small thing; indeed, in our time cooking from scratch and growing any of your own food qualify as subversive acts. And what these acts subvert is nutritionism: the belief that food is foremost about nutrition and nutrition is so complex that only experts and industry can possibly supply it. When you are cooking with food as alive as this - these gorgeous fruits and leaves and flesh - you are in no danger of mistaking it for a commodity, or a fuel, or a collection of chemical nutrients. · © Michael Pollan 2008. Extracted from In Defence of Food: The Myth of Nutrition and the Pleasures of Eating by Michael Pollan, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 .... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing. Jo , yarrow wrote: > > Aside from his tremendous blind spot when it > comes to the ethics of eating, I like what Pollan > says here. > > > > __ > > " To reclaim this much control over one's food, to take it back from > industry and science, is no small thing; indeed, in our time cooking from > scratch and growing any of your own food qualify as subversive acts. " > > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/jan/08/health.foodanddrink > How to get back to real food, Michael Pollan > Tuesday January 8 2008 > > In the second and final extract from his new book, Michael Pollan says we > need to rediscover the simple rules for healthy eating. Here, he gives his > recipe for reclaiming control over our disastrous diets > > > The first time I heard the advice to " just eat food " was in a speech by the > nutritionist and author Joan Gussow, and it baffled me. Of course you > should eat food - what else is there to eat? But Gussow, who grows much of > her own food on a flood-prone finger of land jutting into the Hudson River, > refuses to dignify most of the products for sale in the supermarket with > that title. " In the 34 years I've been in the field of nutrition, " she > said, " I have watched real food disappear from large areas of the > supermarket and from much of the rest of the eating world. " Taking its > place has been an unending stream of food-like substitutes - " products > constructed largely around commerce and hope, supported by frighteningly > little actual knowledge " . > > Real food is still out there, however, still being grown and even > occasionally sold in the supermarket. Here are a few rules of thumb to help > you recognise it - and then make the most of it. > > Don't eat anything that your great-grandmother wouldn't recognise as food > > Why your great-grandmother? Because at this point your mother, and possibly > even your grandmother, are as confused as the rest of us; to be safe we > need to go back at least a couple generations, to a time before the advent > of most modern foods. Some nutritionists recommend going back even further. > John Yudkin, a British nutritionist whose early alarms about the dangers of > refined carbohydrates were overlooked in the 60s and 70s, once advised: > " Just don't eat anything your Neolithic ancestors wouldn't have recognised > and you'll be OK. " > > What would shopping this way mean in the supermarket? Well, imagine your > great-grandmother at your side as you go down the aisles. You're standing > together in front of the dairy cabinet. She picks up a pack of Go- Gurt > Portable Yogurt tubes - and has no idea what this could possibly be. Is it > a food or a toothpaste? You could tell her it is just yoghurt in a > squirtable form, yet if she read the ingredients label she would have every > reason to doubt that was the case. Sure, there is some yoghurt in there, > but there are also a dozen other things that aren't remotely yoghurt-like, > ingredients she would probably fail to recognise as foods of any kind, > including high-fructose corn syrup, modified corn starch, kosher gelatin, > carrageenan, tri-calcium phosphate, natural and artificial flavours, > vitamins, and so forth. How did yoghurt, which once consisted simply of > milk inoculated with a bacterial culture, ever get to be so complicated? Is > a product such as Go-Gurt Portable Yogurt still a wholefood? A food of any > kind? > > Avoid food products that make health claims > > For a product to make health claims on its package, it must first have a > package, so right off the bat it is more likely to be a processed than a > whole food. Generally speaking, it is only the big food companies that have > the wherewithal to secure officially approved health claims for their > products and then trumpet them to the world. Recently, however, some fruits > and nuts have begun boasting about their health-enhancing properties, and > there will surely be more as each crop council scrounges together the money > to commission its own scientific study. Because all plants contain > antioxidants, all these studies are guaranteed to find something on which > to base a health-oriented marketing campaign. But for the most part it is > the products of food science that make the boldest claims, and these are > often founded on incomplete or erroneous science. Don't forget that > trans-fat-rich margarine, one of the first industrial foods to claim it was > healthier than the traditional food it replaced, turned out to cause heart > attacks. > > Get out of the supermarket > > The surest way to escape the overprocessed, life-shortening western diet is > simply to depart the realms it rules: the supermarket, the convenience > store, the fast-food outlet. It is hard to eat badly from a farmers' > market, from a weekly organic vegetable box or from your garden. It is true > that most farmers' markets operate only seasonally, and you won't find > everything you need there. But nor will you find elaborately processed food > products, long lists of unpronounceable ingredients, or ageing food from > far away. Eating in season also tends to diversify your diet - because you > can't buy strawberries or broccoli or potatoes 12 months of the year, you > will find yourself experimenting with other foods when they come into the > market. The weekly veg box does an even better job of forcing you out of > your rut because you will find things in your delivery that you would never > buy on your own. > > If you are concerned about chemicals in your produce, simply ask the farmer > at the market how he or she deals with pests and fertility and begin the > sort of conversation that, in the end, is the best guarantee of quality in > your food. So here is a subclause to the get-out-of-the-supermarket rule: > Shake the hand that feeds you. > > Eat mostly plants, especially leaves > > Scientists may disagree about what is so good about eating plants - is it > the antioxidants in them? The fibre? The omega-3 fatty acids? - but they do > agree that plants are probably really good for you, and certainly can't > hurt. Without plants, for example, we would be hard-pressed to get enough > vitamin C, an essential nutrient that humans long ago lost the ability to > synthesise themselves. Like other antioxidants, vitamin C contributes to > our health in at least two important ways. Several of the body's routine > processes, including cell metabolism and the defence mechanism of > inflammation, produce " oxygen radicals " - atoms of oxygen with an extra > unpaired electron that make them particularly eager to react with other > molecules in ways that can create all kinds of health problems, including > cancer. Antioxidants such as vitamin C harmlessly absorb and stabilise > these free radicals before they can do their mischief. > > But antioxidants do something else for us as well: they stimulate the liver > to produce the enzymes necessary to break down the antioxidant itself, > enzymes that, once produced, go on to break down other compounds, including > whatever toxins resemble the antioxidant. This is one reason it is > important to eat as many different kinds of plants as possible: they all > have different antioxidants and so help the body eliminate different > toxins. > > The advantages of a plant-based diet go beyond whatever is in the plants: > because plant foods - with the exception of seeds - are less energy- dense > than most of the other things you might eat, by eating a plant- based diet > you will probably consume fewer calories (which is itself protective > against many chronic diseases). > > As for meat, we don't need to eat it - with the exception of vitamin B12, > every nutrient found in meat can be obtained somewhere else. (And the tiny > amount of B12 we need is not too hard to come by; it is found in all animal > foods and is produced by bacteria, so you obtain B12 from eating dirty or > decaying or fermented produce.) But it does supply all the essential amino > acids as well as many vitamins and minerals. > > That said, eating meat in the tremendous quantities that westerners do is > probably not a good idea, especially when it comes from a highly > industrialised food chain. Several studies point to the conclusion that the > more meat there is in your diet - red meat especially - the greater your > risk of heart disease and cancer. Thomas Jefferson probably had the right > idea when he recommended using meat as a " condiment for the vegetables " . > > Eat wild foods when you can > > Two of the most nutritious plants in the world are weeds - fat-hen (also > known as lamb's quarters) and purslane - and some of the healthiest > traditional diets, such as the Mediterranean, make frequent use of wild > greens. These tend to have higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids than their > domesticated cousins. > > Wild animals, too, are worth adding to your diet when you have the > opportunity, if you can be sure you are not putting further pressure on > endangered species. Game generally has less saturated fat and more omega-3 > fatty acids than domesticated animals, because most wild animals eat a > diverse diet of plants rather than grain. Wild fish generally have higher > levels of omega-3s than farmed fish. To judge by the experience of > fish-eating cultures such as the Japanese, adding a few servings of wild > fish to the diet each week may lower our risk of heart disease, prolong our > lives, and even make us happier. > > Don't look for the magic bullet in the traditional diet > > Oceans of ink have been spilled attempting to tease out the components of > the Mediterranean diet, hoping to identify the X factor responsible for its > healthiness. Is it the olive oil? The fish? The wild greens? The garlic? > The nuts? The French ability to break many of the accepted rules of healthy > eating with impunity has been variously attributed to the salutary effects > of red wine, olive oil, and even foie gras (liver is high in B vitamins and > iron). Yet when researchers extract a single food from a diet of proven > value, it usually fails to adequately explain why the people living on that > diet live longer or have lower rates of heart disease or cancer than those > eating a modern western diet. The whole of a dietary pattern is evidently > greater than the sum of its parts. > > Eat less > > The scientific case for eating a lot less than we presently do is > compelling, whether or not you are overweight. Calorie restriction has > repeatedly been shown to slow ageing in animals, and some researchers > believe it is the single strongest link between a change in the diet and > the prevention of cancer. > > " Eat less " is easier said than done, of course, in a culture of cheap and > abundant calories with no deeply rooted set of rules to curb overeating. > But other cultures do have such rules and we can try to emulate them. The > people of Okinawa, for example, one of the longest-lived and healthiest > populations in the world, practise a principle they call hara hachi bu: eat > until you are 80% full. > > How on earth do you know when you're 80% full, however? You'd need to be in > closer touch with your senses than many Americans or Britons have become. > Brian Wansink, a professor of marketing and nutritional science at Cornell > University in the US, once rigged up bowls of soup in a restaurant so they > would automatically refill from the bottom. Those given the bottomless bowl > ate 73% more soup than the subjects eating from an ordinary bowl; several > ate as much as a two pints. When one of these hearty eaters was asked his > opinion of the soup, he said: " It's pretty good, and it's pretty filling. " > Indeed. > > Until we learn to attend more closely to our senses, we might be advised to > alter the external clues we rely on in eating. Among Wansink's > recommendations: serve smaller portions on smaller plates; serve food and > beverages from small containers (even if this means repackaging things > bought in jumbo sizes); leave detritus on the table - empty bottles, bones, > and so forth - so you can see how much you have eaten or drunk, and use > glasses that are more vertical than horizontal, since people tend to pour > more into squat glasses. > > Eat meals > > This sounds almost as ridiculous as " eat food " , but it no longer goes > without saying. We are snacking more and eating fewer meals together. > Indeed, sociologists report that Americans have added to the traditional > big three " eating occasions " - breakfast, lunch and dinner - an > as-yet-untitled fourth that lasts all day long: the constant sipping and > snacking while watching TV, driving, and so on. One study found that among > 18- to 50-year-old Americans, roughly a fifth of all eating now takes place > in the car. > > That one should feel the need to mount a defence of " the meal " is sad, but > then who would have thought " food " needed defending? Let's just remember > that it is at the dinner table that we socialise and civilise our children. > At the dinner table parents can determine portion sizes, model eating and > drinking behaviour, and enforce social norms about greed and waste. Shared > meals are about much more than fuelling bodies; they are uniquely human > institutions where our species developed language and this thing we call > culture. > > Do all your eating at a table > > No, a desk is not a table. > > Try not to eat alone > > Though there is research suggesting that light eaters will eat more when > they dine with others (probably because they spend more time at the table), > for people prone to overeating, communal meals tend to limit consumption, > if only because we're less likely to stuff ourselves when others are > watching. This is precisely why so much food marketing is designed to > encourage us to eat in front of the TV or in the car: when we eat > mindlessly and alone, we eat more. > > Cook - and, if you can, plant a garden > > My own vegetable garden is modest in scale - a densely planted patch only > about 6m by 3m (20ft by 10ft) - but it yields an astonishing cornucopia of > produce, so much so that during the summer months we discontinue our weekly > vegetable box and buy little but fruit from the farmers' market. And though > we live on a postage-stamp city lot, there is room for a couple of fruit > trees too: a lemon, a fig, and a persimmon (in Britain, I suppose we could > have plums and cherries). A garden offers the most straightforward solution > to the problem of being able to afford high- quality organic produce: the > food you grow yourself is fresher than any you can buy, and costs nothing > but an hour or two of work each week, plus the price of a few packets of > seed. > > When your harvest lands on the kitchen counter, when you start cleaning and > cutting and chopping, you are thinking about a dozen different things - > what to make, how to make it - but nutrition, or even health, is probably > not high on the list. It is hard when contemplating such produce to think > in terms of nutrients or chemical compounds; no, this is food, so fresh it > is still alive, communicating with us by scent and colour and taste. To > reclaim this much control over one's food, to take it back from industry > and science, is no small thing; indeed, in our time cooking from scratch > and growing any of your own food qualify as subversive acts. And what these > acts subvert is nutritionism: the belief that food is foremost about > nutrition and nutrition is so complex that only experts and industry can > possibly supply it. When you are cooking with food as alive as this - these > gorgeous fruits and leaves and flesh - you are in no danger of mistaking it > for a commodity, or a fuel, or a collection of chemical nutrients. > > · © Michael Pollan 2008. Extracted from In Defence of Food: The Myth of > Nutrition and the Pleasures of Eating by Michael Pollan, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age.... but.. i don't take suppliments.... suppliments bug me.... i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it.... maybe i should go poo in my garden hahahahahahahahah heartwerk Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM Re: be subversive, eat vegetables .... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.Jo Recent Activity 6 New MembersVisit Your Group Be a Better Planet Share with others Help the Planet. Official Samsung Group for supporting your HDTVs and devices. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. .. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008  It does mention that a shortfall can take between 5 years and over 20 years to show, and even then it might take a further year to be diagnosed. Younger people may not remember pernicious anaemia, but it paralyses people because the nerves and the main nerve in the backbone degenerate through lack of B12. The newer research confirms (not suggests) that B12 is needed in reasonable amounts to avoid heart trouble caused by too much homocysteine in the body. I personally think supplements are wise (for everyone not just vegans) but you could get enough by eating on a daily basis foods that are fortified with it. I can't see why it is too much trouble to tot up the amounts you get from your daily meals to see if you are actually getting enough, but it is your health you are playing with. Jo - fraggle Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:25 PM Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age.... but.. i don't take suppliments.... suppliments bug me.... i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it.... maybe i should go poo in my garden hahahahahahahahah heartwerk Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM Re: be subversive, eat vegetables .... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.Jo Recent Activity 6 New MembersVisit Your Group Be a Better Planet Share with others Help the Planet. Official Samsung Group for supporting your HDTVs and devices. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. .. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Now theres a lovely mental picture.............would Rebeca be joining you? heheheheh Peter H fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 4:25:21 PMRe: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age.... but.. i don't take suppliments. ... suppliments bug me.... i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it.... maybe i should go poo in my garden hahahahahahahahah heartwerk Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM @gro ups.com Re: be subversive, eat vegetables .... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.Jo Recent Activity 6 New MembersVisit Your Group Be a Better Planet Share with others Help the Planet. Official Samsung Group for supporting your HDTVs and devices. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. .. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Sent from - a smarter inbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I stopped eating my poo and now take the vegan societys suppliment veg1 ( imaginatively named eh?) http://www.vegansociety.com/images/Veg1.pdf Peter H jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 7:12:37 PMRe: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables  It does mention that a shortfall can take between 5 years and over 20 years to show, and even then it might take a further year to be diagnosed. Younger people may not remember pernicious anaemia, but it paralyses people because the nerves and the main nerve in the backbone degenerate through lack of B12. The newer research confirms (not suggests) that B12 is needed in reasonable amounts to avoid heart trouble caused by too much homocysteine in the body. I personally think supplements are wise (for everyone not just vegans) but you could get enough by eating on a daily basis foods that are fortified with it. I can't see why it is too much trouble to tot up the amounts you get from your daily meals to see if you are actually getting enough, but it is your health you are playing with. Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:25 PM Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age.... but.. i don't take suppliments. ... suppliments bug me.... i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it.... maybe i should go poo in my garden hahahahahahahahah heartwerk Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM @gro ups.com Re: be subversive, eat vegetables .... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.Jo Recent Activity 6 New MembersVisit Your Group Be a Better Planet Share with others Help the Planet. Official Samsung Group for supporting your HDTVs and devices. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. .. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with for Good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 probably only if she was drunk..... Peter VV Jan 9, 2008 2:42 PM Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables Now theres a lovely mental picture.............would Rebeca be joining you? heheheheh Peter H fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 4:25:21 PMRe: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age.... but.. i don't take suppliments. ... suppliments bug me.... i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it.... maybe i should go poo in my garden hahahahahahahahah heartwerk Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM @gro ups.com Re: be subversive, eat vegetables .... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.Jo Recent Activity 6 New MembersVisit Your Group Be a Better Planet Share with others Help the Planet. Official Samsung Group for supporting your HDTVs and devices. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. .. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Sent from - a smarter inbox. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 So thats a yes then is it?.............. Peter H fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 8:17:41 PMRe: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables probably only if she was drunk..... Peter VV Jan 9, 2008 2:42 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables Now theres a lovely mental picture..... ........would Rebeca be joining you? heheheheh Peter H fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.net>@gro ups.comWednesday, 9 January, 2008 4:25:21 PMRe: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age.... but.. i don't take suppliments. ... suppliments bug me.... i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it.... maybe i should go poo in my garden hahahahahahahahah heartwerk Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM @gro ups.com Re: be subversive, eat vegetables .... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.Jo Recent Activity 6 New MembersVisit Your Group Be a Better Planet Share with others Help the Planet. Official Samsung Group for supporting your HDTVs and devices. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. .. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Sent from - a smarter inbox. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Confucius Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with for Good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Very wise too. When are they going to get more stocks in!!! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > I stopped eating my poo and now take the vegan societys suppliment veg1 ( imaginatively named eh?) > http://www.vegansociety.com/images/Veg1.pdf > > Peter H > > > > > > jo <jo.heartwork > > Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 7:12:37 PM > Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables > >  > It does mention that a shortfall can take between 5 years and over 20 years to show, and even then it might take a further year to be diagnosed. Younger people may not remember pernicious anaemia, but it paralyses people because the nerves and the main nerve in the backbone degenerate through lack of B12. The newer research confirms (not suggests) that B12 is needed in reasonable amounts to avoid heart trouble caused by too much homocysteine in the body. > > I personally think supplements are wise (for everyone not just vegans) but you could get enough by eating on a daily basis foods that are fortified with it. I can't see why it is too much trouble to tot up the amounts you get from your daily meals to see if you are actually getting enough, but it is your health you are playing with. > > Jo > > > - > fraggle > @gro ups.com > Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:25 PM > Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables > > > sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know > yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age.... > but.. > i don't take suppliments. ... > suppliments bug me.... > i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden > we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it.... > maybe i should go poo in my garden > hahahahahahahahah > > > > > heartwerk > Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM > @gro ups.com > Re: be subversive, eat vegetables > > > ... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact > that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing. > > Jo > > > Recent Activity > 6New Members > Visit Your Group > > Be a Better Planet > Share with others > Help the Planet. > Official Samsung > Group for > supporting your > HDTVs and devices. > Drive Traffic > Sponsored Search > can help increase > your site traffic. > . > > > Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. > Confucius > > > > _________ > Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with For Good http://uk.promotions./forgood/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 What stocks of my poo????? end of this month I think. Peter H heartwerk <jo.heartwork Sent: Thursday, 10 January, 2008 7:57:07 AM Re: be subversive, eat vegetables Very wise too. When are they going to get more stocks in!!!Jo@gro ups.com, Peter VV <swpgh01 > wrote:>> I stopped eating my poo and now take the vegan societys suppliment veg1 ( imaginatively named eh?)> http://www.vegansoc iety.com/ images/Veg1. pdf> > Peter H > > > > > > jo <jo.heartwork@ ...>> @gro ups.com> Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 7:12:37 PM> Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables> >  > It does mention that a shortfall can take between 5 years and over 20 years to show, and even then it might take a further year to be diagnosed. Younger people may not remember pernicious anaemia, but it paralyses people because the nerves and the main nerve in the backbone degenerate through lack of B12. The newer research confirms (not suggests) that B12 is needed in reasonable amounts to avoid heart trouble caused by too much homocysteine in the body.> > I personally think supplements are wise (for everyone not just vegans) but you could get enough by eating on a daily basis foods that are fortified with it. I can't see why it is too much trouble to tot up the amounts you get from your daily meals to see if you are actually getting enough, but it is your health you are playing with.> > Jo> > > - > fraggle > @gro ups.com > Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:25 PM> Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables> > > sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know> yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age....> but..> i don't take suppliments. ...> suppliments bug me....> i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden> we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it....> maybe i should go poo in my garden> hahahahahahahahah> > > > > heartwerk > Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM > @gro ups.com > Re: be subversive, eat vegetables > > > ... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact > that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.> > Jo> > > Recent Activity> 6New Members> Visit Your Group > > Be a Better Planet> Share with others> Help the Planet.> Official Samsung> Group for> supporting your> HDTVs and devices.> Drive Traffic> Sponsored Search> can help increase> your site traffic.> .> > > Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. > Confucius> > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with For Good http://uk.promotion s./ forgood/> Sent from - a smarter inbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008  Veg1 at the Vegan Society online store. Jo - Peter VV Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:41 PM Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables What stocks of my poo????? end of this month I think. Peter H heartwerk <jo.heartwork Sent: Thursday, 10 January, 2008 7:57:07 AM Re: be subversive, eat vegetables Very wise too. When are they going to get more stocks in!!!Jo@gro ups.com, Peter VV <swpgh01 > wrote:>> I stopped eating my poo and now take the vegan societys suppliment veg1 ( imaginatively named eh?)> http://www.vegansoc iety.com/ images/Veg1. pdf> > Peter H > > > > > > jo <jo.heartwork@ ...>> @gro ups.com> Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 7:12:37 PM> Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables> >  > It does mention that a shortfall can take between 5 years and over 20 years to show, and even then it might take a further year to be diagnosed. Younger people may not remember pernicious anaemia, but it paralyses people because the nerves and the main nerve in the backbone degenerate through lack of B12. The newer research confirms (not suggests) that B12 is needed in reasonable amounts to avoid heart trouble caused by too much homocysteine in the body.> > I personally think supplements are wise (for everyone not just vegans) but you could get enough by eating on a daily basis foods that are fortified with it. I can't see why it is too much trouble to tot up the amounts you get from your daily meals to see if you are actually getting enough, but it is your health you are playing with.> > Jo> > > - > fraggle > @gro ups.com > Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:25 PM> Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables> > > sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know> yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age....> but..> i don't take suppliments. ...> suppliments bug me....> i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden> we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it....> maybe i should go poo in my garden> hahahahahahahahah> > > > > heartwerk > Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM > @gro ups.com > Re: be subversive, eat vegetables > > > ... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact > that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.> > Jo> > > Recent Activity> 6New Members> Visit Your Group > > Be a Better Planet> Share with others> Help the Planet.> Official Samsung> Group for> supporting your> HDTVs and devices.> Drive Traffic> Sponsored Search> can help increase> your site traffic.> .> > > Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. > Confucius> > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with For Good http://uk.promotion s./ forgood/> Sent from - a smarter inbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 end of this month I think. Peter H jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Thursday, 10 January, 2008 9:03:01 PMRe: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables  Veg1 at the Vegan Society online store. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:41 PM Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables What stocks of my poo????? end of this month I think. Peter H heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comThursday, 10 January, 2008 7:57:07 AM Re: be subversive, eat vegetables Very wise too. When are they going to get more stocks in!!!Jo@gro ups.com, Peter VV <swpgh01 > wrote:>> I stopped eating my poo and now take the vegan societys suppliment veg1 ( imaginatively named eh?)> http://www.vegansoc iety.com/ images/Veg1. pdf> > Peter H > > > > > > jo <jo.heartwork@ ...>> @gro ups.com> Wednesday, 9 January, 2008 7:12:37 PM> Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables> >  > It does mention that a shortfall can take between 5 years and over 20 years to show, and even then it might take a further year to be diagnosed. Younger people may not remember pernicious anaemia, but it paralyses people because the nerves and the main nerve in the backbone degenerate through lack of B12. The newer research confirms (not suggests) that B12 is needed in reasonable amounts to avoid heart trouble caused by too much homocysteine in the body.> > I personally think supplements are wise (for everyone not just vegans) but you could get enough by eating on a daily basis foods that are fortified with it. I can't see why it is too much trouble to tot up the amounts you get from your daily meals to see if you are actually getting enough, but it is your health you are playing with.> > Jo> > > - > fraggle > @gro ups.com > Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:25 PM> Re: Re: be subversive, eat vegetables> > > sorry..i'm one of those people who don't buy it...as you know> yes, B12 is extremely hard to obtain for vegans in this day and age....> but..> i don't take suppliments. ...> suppliments bug me....> i'd much rather eat out of my organic garden> we ourselves produce b-12 in our intestines, unfortunately, the bacteria that produce it live too far down the tract for it to be readily absorbed...but, even we produce it...just can't use it....> maybe i should go poo in my garden> hahahahahahahahah> > > > > heartwerk > Jan 8, 2008 11:43 PM > @gro ups.com > Re: be subversive, eat vegetables > > > ... and, according to vegan nutritionists, is wrong about the fact > that you can get enough vitamin B12 without supplementing.> > Jo> > > Recent Activity> 6New Members> Visit Your Group > > Be a Better Planet> Share with others> Help the Planet.> Official Samsung> Group for> supporting your> HDTVs and devices.> Drive Traffic> Sponsored Search> can help increase> your site traffic.> .> > > Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. > Confucius> > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with For Good http://uk.promotion s./ forgood/> Sent from - a smarter inbox. Sent from - a smarter inbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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