Guest guest Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Reacting to a story on the opening of a vegan strip club in Portland, Oregon Ann Friedman remarks: This is definitely part of a trend -- starting with PETA ads -- in which women's bodies are used as a way of promoting veganism and vegetarianism. There's also L.A.'s Vegan Vixens, "sexy, trendy and fun loving women whose goal is to inspire men to live a longer and happier life, by making healthier decisions on what they consume." And now the vegan strip club.One common thread here is that all of these efforts are aimed at making veganism appealing to men. The Maxim-like PETA ads, the Vegan Vixens, the strip club: All are saying it's okay to buck the stereotype of Real Men Eat Red Meat, because here are some naked ladies to reassure you that you're still a superhetero manly man! Almost as if they're saying, you won't even miss eating meat, because you'll get to look at so much of it! Or as Diablo puts it, “We put the meat on the pole, not on the plate.†It's a substitution. This trend seems to confirm much of what Carol Adams observed in the Sexual Politics of Meat -- and then turn it on its head. I think this misreads the vegan strip club concept. Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. The vegan strip club isn't using strippers to sell veganism, it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys. After all, food quality is probably not a significant factor in strip club marketing. Permalink :: Comments (51) :: Share This Comments (51) Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, Aren't they? I mean, yes, you go there for the strippers, but the club makes its money by selling you booze and food while you're there. (I'm assuming the strippers keep the tips) It's like a bar with a big-screen TV is in the business of using football to sell booze and food. But I am quite ready to admit ignorance of the economics of the strip joint. I never really got into the Sopranos. Posted by ajay | February 14, 2008 8:37 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. Let's see Martha Stewart top THAT for presentation. Posted by Don Williams | February 14, 2008 8:40 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. Nope, sorry. They are absolutely using sex to sell booze and food. The dancers are "independent contractors" - they pay a "tip-out" (say, $100) for the privilege of working the joint for the night. They may or may not make a little extra "commission" for pushing drinks. The club makes most of it's money on the food & booze and very little on the cover charge. Or so I'm told Posted by Brautigan | February 14, 2008 8:46 AM I assumed it was because vegan sounds like vagina. Posted by Bill | February 14, 2008 8:54 AM This rancorous division is part of the failed politics of the past, and must come to an end. Let's instead come together around the obvious truths that strip clubs, veganism, and the west coast are all stupid. Posted by not a divider | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM One should follow the links. "FACT: The club’s no-frills Mexican-based menu comes with no description of meals—just a title, like “Fajita Platter $8.00†with “choose steak or chicken†written underneath. (Diablo says he enjoys duping meat-eating customers, and that what’s served is gluten-free, wheat-based soy.)" And yes, of course, the places make most of their money on the booze. Like everyone else in the restaurant business, that's where the margins are. Posted by jayAckroyd | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM What others have said - strip clubs make their money on overpriced drinks. I'm less certain about food, but presumably at least some strip clubs make money on food, as well. Posted by John | February 14, 2008 9:02 AM Even if they have goatees, Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys are probably a bit put off by the tackily exploitative atmosphere of strip clubs in general (see also Brautigan's comment above). I doubt that adding a vegan menu will do much to mitigate that atmosphere. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:07 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Posted by Traven | February 14, 2008 9:13 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. If the room were so dark that the patrons had to go by sense of smell, they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is ... well, never mind. Posted by Peter | February 14, 2008 9:17 AM they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is... The suave and refined M-Yg commenter, always keepin' it classy. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Well everyone in New York knows Robert's is one of the best steakhouses around. Posted by right | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM Wow, some people know a little too much about strip club economics. Posted by Reality Man | February 14, 2008 9:22 AM "it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys." I'm skeptical most liberal nice guys need veganism to "sell" the idea of watching strippers. Alternately if a man has a strong liberal-feminist moral objection to stripping I'm skeptical "oh it benefits veganism" would change his mind. Although I find where that could lead vaguely amusing. "At Nevada's bunny ranch 10% of the profits 'Johns' spend goes to Amnesty International. We also assure all of them are over 21 and that we provide a fund for their children's education. So if you care about third-world dissidents and children's education, screw a hooker today!" Posted by Thomas R | February 14, 2008 9:39 AM Strip clubs sell food? Posted by zak822 | February 14, 2008 9:44 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. But really a little common sense would tell you the point of strip clubs is to use sex to sell overpriced drinks and food. Using sex to sell sex is usually called "prostitution." Granted, the clubs that feature private lap dances are probably straddling that line... I don't if James Gary has been to Portland, but my impression, based on my sister-in-law among other people, is that in Portland going to strip clubs doesn't have the exploitative Wall Street frat boy stigma it might in a place like NYC or DC, and in fact is a fairly common diversion for liberal hipsters - women as well. It's a very "sex positive" city. No one in Portland makes coy remarks like "or so I am told", they're more likely to recommend the cooler more edgy strip clubs to you. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 9:47 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food Scores in NYC sells Bud Light bottles for about $18 a pop. I'm sure they make some money on the dancers, but the booze is where it's at. Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:53 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. Heh. But he's got a sweet beard and listens to the hippest new bands! Sorry, MY. Can't help busting your mildly dorky chops every now and then... Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:59 AM I've never been to a strip club and I never intend to go, thank the Lord. As a man of the Left, I believe that strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Anyone who defends them ought to be ashamed of themselves. Posted by Hector | February 14, 2008 10:03 AM Natalie Portman's a vegan, and I'm still a rampant carnivore. Nuff Z. Posted by B | February 14, 2008 10:06 AM strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Exactly - that's why people go to them. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 10:13 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:50 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:53 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:55 AM Sorry, I kept getting a 'bad server response' message when I submitted. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:04 AM A few points: 1. You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." 2. This guy had a vegan restaurant before and looks to be using sex to surreptitiously sneak the vegan food into things. Flounder points out correctly that a lot of the young guys in Portland don't have problems with going to strip clubs regardless of their political orientation. Check out the comments on Willamette Week's article on the guy, though, and you'll see that a lot of people feel that (A) His vegan food sucks, even compared to other vegan food, and (B) He's a slimy guy who's looking for a way to make money because his previous restaurant went out of business.http://wweek.com/editorial/3413/10351/ 3. In California, at least, there's a big difference between the nude clubs and the topless clubs, since the topless clubs can serve alcohol but the nude ones can't. Nevertheless, most of the bigger clubs are nude, and while I've seen clubs change from topless to nude, I've never seen a club change in the other direction (not that it hasn't happened, just that I think it's rare). 4. Most clubs in L.A. have set rates for lapdances, and I believe this is because they take a certain amount out of each one; what I've heard is that the take from lapdances is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 50/50 split (I assume the dancer would keep any tips). On the other hand, the nude clubs even charge a lot for a drink - in the neighborhood of $9.00 for a Coke, but they usually only have a one-drink minimum. Bottom line: I think they make a lot from the lapdances, but they have the admission (often discounted) and the drink minimum to make sure nobody spends time in the club without paying out a certain minimum. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 11:23 AM The Hustler Club in San Francisco has delicious pancakes. I shit you not. Perhaps this will be the thread that convinces Hector that we're beyond saving, and he'll leave us alone. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 11:57 AM I happened to drive past this place the other day. There's no indication anywhere on the outside of the building that the food is vegan; it just looks like another strip joint. I doubt whether any of the patrons take notice of the food at all. The owner's previous concept (in the same location) was a vegan pirate restaurant (servers dressed in pirate costumes, etc.). That went bust (in more ways than one). The owner is from Southern California, incidentally, so animadversions regarding Portlanders are uncalled for. Posted by Steve | February 14, 2008 12:12 PM You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." You can tell someone's from the West Coast when they say "Portland, Maine." Nobody in New England bothers to specify "Portland." You can also tell when someone's from the East Coast when they say "Springfield, Illinois." Nobody in Illinois bothers to specify "Springfield." Etc.,etc. West Coast people are so provincial... Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 12:14 PM I had a more negative reaction to this until I read the comments above about strip club culture in Portland -- it's possible for me to imagine an environment in which a strip club isn't more exploitative than any other kind of work -- but, still, it is kind of depressing the way progressive causes (veganism, environmentalism, organic food) are taken up in very superficial ways without changing any of the facts on the ground. An irony is that you see this happening to religion too -- with religiosity being expressed by bracelets and t-shirts and references to "relationships to Christ", our weird shadow pop culture of christian rap and all that. I mean -- I guess the economic effects of one fewer, uh, strip club serving slaughtered animal is good (presuming you think that fewer slaughtered animals is always good, which is another conversation entirely) but this is clearly more the adoption of a meme than a change in behavior based on some growth in conscience. Posted by MrTimbo | February 14, 2008 12:24 PM Dudes, the only reason there is food at these places is so that you can tell people you go to the Yellow Rose for the lunch buffet. Same reason Playboy has articles. The funniest thing about Ann's post is that she's even talking about the food. Not sure my wife would fall for the ole, "I like their hummus" racket. Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 12:42 PM Guys, take it easy on MY. He's just playing coy about his understanding of strip club economics in order to curry still more favor with Ms. McArdle. I assume that because otherwise it would be ludicrous to suggest he's never seen the barker signs saying "NO COVER! (Two drink minimum)." Coherent arguments indeed. (Rolls eyes.) Posted by The Invisible Groping Hand | February 14, 2008 12:50 PM Daniel, Any idea if they serve falafel? - Bill O. Posted by Bill O'Reilly | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM I can't believe they're using tofu to sell sex. Outrageous. Posted by Egypt Steve | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM "You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say 'Portland, Oregon.' Nobody in the west bothers to specify 'Portland.'" So, when I ask someone from the West Coast how to get to that vegan strip club, y'all say: Well, take the bus into downtown Oregon. Then walk South on Oregon's main street, 'till you're a block past Oregon's City Hall. No wonder all the people in 'Oregon' look so lost. .. Posted by Garmin | February 14, 2008 1:00 PM Matt, you oughta take a trip out the Rose City before further opining on strip-club marketing (happy to supply recommendations). Flounder has it exactly right - in Portland, strip clubs make food a verrry significant part of the marketing. Exhibit A is the aforementioned Acropolis Steakhouse ('Acrop,' for short). Run by an Oregon cattle rancher, this place offers decent 12 ounce steaks about three bucks, as well as plenty of other cheap meaty fair. From my few experiences, a large portion of the acrop's clients - if not going solely for the steak - at least choose the acrop over other nudie bars because of its menu. I wouldn't be surprised if this vegan strip club was prompted by the success of the Acrop - offering a combo of nude girls and cheap food, but targeted at Portland's large vegan community. Acrop: http://portland.citysearch.com/profile/8454360 Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:26 PM Vegan-ness aside, the far more significant aspect of this new strip club is that it will be smoke-free (Oregon still allows smoking in bars). Finally, an Oregonian who understands that one shouldn't have to hazard lung-cancer just to indulge some male curiosity! Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:31 PM Garmin - point taken. My word usage there was screwy. Vanya - Portland, Oregon is a much bigger and more prominent city than Portland, Maine. It's East Coast provincialism that suggests there's some kind of equivalence between them. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:33 PM Oh, and that being said, this is a blog of national interest, so I don't actually have a problem with people specifying the Oregon when it's not clear from context, I was really just pointing out that it looks jarring to me to see the state included there, though it probably is appropriate in a national-interest blog. So, anyway, yeah, no big deal. People in Portland hate L.A. anyway, so it probably serves them right to be compared to a city barely one-tenth its size on the East coast. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:40 PM Bill O'Reilly: It's an honor, sir! They do sell falafel, but those liberal weenies call it "Feel Awful," cause people in Portland hate white, manly, heterosexual guys like us and want us to feel bad about ourselves. Thanks for looking out for me! Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 1:41 PM Ooooo...it's not only meatless it's also SMOKE FREE! A good time will be had by some. (And greetings from Portland. (In Maine. The only Portland that matters!) Posted by FRED | February 14, 2008 2:18 PM If this is a strip club where you can't smoke or eat meat, why not just go all the way and get rid of the naked girls, too? Then we can all feed good about ourselves. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Adam, the provincialism I was referring to you was the fact you found it jarring that MY made it clear to distinguish Portland OREGON. Sure, Portland is somewhat more significant than Portland, Maine - but it's not that significant. If someone writes Paris we can assume they probably don't mean Paris, TX, and if someone writes London we assume they don't mean London, Ontario. I don't think little old Portland, OR reaches that level, NBA team or not. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Oh yeah, and Portland Maine has a topless donut shop! Try and top that with your tired old vegan strip bars, you West Coasters. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:46 PM A topless donut shop? Damn! I take back everything I said about Portland, Maine. I like donuts a lot better than vegan food, anyway. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 3:38 PM Decent food helps draw businessmen on lunch break, don't overlook that. Posted by Senescent | February 14, 2008 3:50 PM There is also the prestige factor. Mohammed Atta and his pal could have stayed anywhere on the East Coast before shuttling in to Boston for boarding their final flight to Paradise. They chose Portland, Maine. Though I understand that Portland Oregon also wishes to be a favored destination of Muslim terrorists by being a "Sanctuary city" where police discourage Patriot Act practices and the reporting of suspicious Muslims. A few black Muslims into running a terror training camp decided to locate near Portland Oregon because the "progressives are very friendly to us, very anti-Zionist". It is unknown if Portland Maine feels it's status as "preferred last stop for Jihadis" is threatened. Let Portland Oregon prove itself! Posted by chris ford | February 14, 2008 4:20 PM This gets down to a divide in the vegetarian movement and the liberal movement as a whole. There are on one hand men and women who are very liberal minded period, on the edge, etc., and are very pro-sex, pro-nudity, pro-human body, porn friendly, etc. I'm part of this group, as were all gay men before the influence of more anti-sex feminists in the 80's and 90's, and most gay men still. Then there are those anti-sex feminists, to whom all sex and nudity and porn and strippers are automatically assumed to be oppressive to women and part of an anti-woman or pro-machoism political movement. I think Friedman is taking the perspective more common to this group. Obviously the two can get into disagreements over the meaning and existence of things like the PETA model ads and the vegan strip club. Posted by Tom | February 14, 2008 5:09 PM Tom, you get to another point. As one of my old Portland roomies argued to me when I was trying to make sense of it all, where else can a 20 year old single mom make a close to 6 figure income? Sure it is degrading and sexist, but many jobs are; $7/hr or working for Bob Packwood are certainly fraught with degradation and/or sexism. Sure there are lots of ways to screw it up like getting into coke or prostitution, but being from one of the meth capitals of the Rockies, I know that these dangers aren't limited to working at a strip club. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:03 PM Ah, but I don't say that dudes are patronizing the strip club because it's vegan, or that the vegan food is the primary draw. I'm responding to the owner's claims that this is his way of promoting veganism. Likewise, the Vegan Vixens say their goal is to get men to stop eating meat. Of course I'm aware that people go to strip clubs to look at nekkid ladies, not for the food. That doesn't mean the club owner and the Vegan Vixens aren't using women's bodies in an attempt to win a few converts to their diet. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:18 PM Oh, and also: That's why self-identified "liberal nice guys" who like vegan food aren't the intended customer. The owner is looking to draw anyone who eats meat, liberal or no. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:22 PM Peter H Sent from - a smarter inbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008  There's some seriously stupid people about. Jo - Peter VV Friday, February 15, 2008 1:44 PM Re: Meat and Nudity Reacting to a story on the opening of a vegan strip club in Portland, Oregon Ann Friedman remarks: This is definitely part of a trend -- starting with PETA ads -- in which women's bodies are used as a way of promoting veganism and vegetarianism. There's also L.A.'s Vegan Vixens, "sexy, trendy and fun loving women whose goal is to inspire men to live a longer and happier life, by making healthier decisions on what they consume." And now the vegan strip club.One common thread here is that all of these efforts are aimed at making veganism appealing to men. The Maxim-like PETA ads, the Vegan Vixens, the strip club: All are saying it's okay to buck the stereotype of Real Men Eat Red Meat, because here are some naked ladies to reassure you that you're still a superhetero manly man! Almost as if they're saying, you won't even miss eating meat, because you'll get to look at so much of it! Or as Diablo puts it, “We put the meat on the pole, not on the plate.†It's a substitution. This trend seems to confirm much of what Carol Adams observed in the Sexual Politics of Meat -- and then turn it on its head. I think this misreads the vegan strip club concept. Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. The vegan strip club isn't using strippers to sell veganism, it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys. After all, food quality is probably not a significant factor in strip club marketing. Permalink :: Comments (51) :: Share This Comments (51) Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, Aren't they? I mean, yes, you go there for the strippers, but the club makes its money by selling you booze and food while you're there. (I'm assuming the strippers keep the tips) It's like a bar with a big-screen TV is in the business of using football to sell booze and food. But I am quite ready to admit ignorance of the economics of the strip joint. I never really got into the Sopranos. Posted by ajay | February 14, 2008 8:37 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. Let's see Martha Stewart top THAT for presentation. Posted by Don Williams | February 14, 2008 8:40 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. Nope, sorry. They are absolutely using sex to sell booze and food. The dancers are "independent contractors" - they pay a "tip-out" (say, $100) for the privilege of working the joint for the night. They may or may not make a little extra "commission" for pushing drinks. The club makes most of it's money on the food & booze and very little on the cover charge. Or so I'm told Posted by Brautigan | February 14, 2008 8:46 AM I assumed it was because vegan sounds like vagina. Posted by Bill | February 14, 2008 8:54 AM This rancorous division is part of the failed politics of the past, and must come to an end. Let's instead come together around the obvious truths that strip clubs, veganism, and the west coast are all stupid. Posted by not a divider | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM One should follow the links. "FACT: The club’s no-frills Mexican-based menu comes with no description of meals—just a title, like “Fajita Platter $8.00†with “choose steak or chicken†written underneath. (Diablo says he enjoys duping meat-eating customers, and that what’s served is gluten-free, wheat-based soy.)" And yes, of course, the places make most of their money on the booze. Like everyone else in the restaurant business, that's where the margins are. Posted by jayAckroyd | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM What others have said - strip clubs make their money on overpriced drinks. I'm less certain about food, but presumably at least some strip clubs make money on food, as well. Posted by John | February 14, 2008 9:02 AM Even if they have goatees, Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys are probably a bit put off by the tackily exploitative atmosphere of strip clubs in general (see also Brautigan's comment above). I doubt that adding a vegan menu will do much to mitigate that atmosphere. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:07 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Posted by Traven | February 14, 2008 9:13 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. If the room were so dark that the patrons had to go by sense of smell, they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is ... well, never mind. Posted by Peter | February 14, 2008 9:17 AM they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is... The suave and refined M-Yg commenter, always keepin' it classy. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Well everyone in New York knows Robert's is one of the best steakhouses around. Posted by right | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM Wow, some people know a little too much about strip club economics. Posted by Reality Man | February 14, 2008 9:22 AM "it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys." I'm skeptical most liberal nice guys need veganism to "sell" the idea of watching strippers. Alternately if a man has a strong liberal-feminist moral objection to stripping I'm skeptical "oh it benefits veganism" would change his mind. Although I find where that could lead vaguely amusing. "At Nevada's bunny ranch 10% of the profits 'Johns' spend goes to Amnesty International. We also assure all of them are over 21 and that we provide a fund for their children's education. So if you care about third-world dissidents and children's education, screw a hooker today!" Posted by Thomas R | February 14, 2008 9:39 AM Strip clubs sell food? Posted by zak822 | February 14, 2008 9:44 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. But really a little common sense would tell you the point of strip clubs is to use sex to sell overpriced drinks and food. Using sex to sell sex is usually called "prostitution." Granted, the clubs that feature private lap dances are probably straddling that line... I don't if James Gary has been to Portland, but my impression, based on my sister-in-law among other people, is that in Portland going to strip clubs doesn't have the exploitative Wall Street frat boy stigma it might in a place like NYC or DC, and in fact is a fairly common diversion for liberal hipsters - women as well. It's a very "sex positive" city. No one in Portland makes coy remarks like "or so I am told", they're more likely to recommend the cooler more edgy strip clubs to you. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 9:47 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food Scores in NYC sells Bud Light bottles for about $18 a pop. I'm sure they make some money on the dancers, but the booze is where it's at. Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:53 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. Heh. But he's got a sweet beard and listens to the hippest new bands! Sorry, MY. Can't help busting your mildly dorky chops every now and then... Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:59 AM I've never been to a strip club and I never intend to go, thank the Lord. As a man of the Left, I believe that strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Anyone who defends them ought to be ashamed of themselves. Posted by Hector | February 14, 2008 10:03 AM Natalie Portman's a vegan, and I'm still a rampant carnivore. Nuff Z. Posted by B | February 14, 2008 10:06 AM strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Exactly - that's why people go to them. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 10:13 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:50 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:53 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:55 AM Sorry, I kept getting a 'bad server response' message when I submitted. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:04 AM A few points: 1. You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." 2. This guy had a vegan restaurant before and looks to be using sex to surreptitiously sneak the vegan food into things. Flounder points out correctly that a lot of the young guys in Portland don't have problems with going to strip clubs regardless of their political orientation. Check out the comments on Willamette Week's article on the guy, though, and you'll see that a lot of people feel that (A) His vegan food sucks, even compared to other vegan food, and (B) He's a slimy guy who's looking for a way to make money because his previous restaurant went out of business.http://wweek.com/editorial/3413/10351/ 3. In California, at least, there's a big difference between the nude clubs and the topless clubs, since the topless clubs can serve alcohol but the nude ones can't. Nevertheless, most of the bigger clubs are nude, and while I've seen clubs change from topless to nude, I've never seen a club change in the other direction (not that it hasn't happened, just that I think it's rare). 4. Most clubs in L.A. have set rates for lapdances, and I believe this is because they take a certain amount out of each one; what I've heard is that the take from lapdances is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 50/50 split (I assume the dancer would keep any tips). On the other hand, the nude clubs even charge a lot for a drink - in the neighborhood of $9.00 for a Coke, but they usually only have a one-drink minimum. Bottom line: I think they make a lot from the lapdances, but they have the admission (often discounted) and the drink minimum to make sure nobody spends time in the club without paying out a certain minimum. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 11:23 AM The Hustler Club in San Francisco has delicious pancakes. I shit you not. Perhaps this will be the thread that convinces Hector that we're beyond saving, and he'll leave us alone. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 11:57 AM I happened to drive past this place the other day. There's no indication anywhere on the outside of the building that the food is vegan; it just looks like another strip joint. I doubt whether any of the patrons take notice of the food at all. The owner's previous concept (in the same location) was a vegan pirate restaurant (servers dressed in pirate costumes, etc.). That went bust (in more ways than one). The owner is from Southern California, incidentally, so animadversions regarding Portlanders are uncalled for. Posted by Steve | February 14, 2008 12:12 PM You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." You can tell someone's from the West Coast when they say "Portland, Maine." Nobody in New England bothers to specify "Portland." You can also tell when someone's from the East Coast when they say "Springfield, Illinois." Nobody in Illinois bothers to specify "Springfield." Etc.,etc. West Coast people are so provincial... Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 12:14 PM I had a more negative reaction to this until I read the comments above about strip club culture in Portland -- it's possible for me to imagine an environment in which a strip club isn't more exploitative than any other kind of work -- but, still, it is kind of depressing the way progressive causes (veganism, environmentalism, organic food) are taken up in very superficial ways without changing any of the facts on the ground. An irony is that you see this happening to religion too -- with religiosity being expressed by bracelets and t-shirts and references to "relationships to Christ", our weird shadow pop culture of christian rap and all that. I mean -- I guess the economic effects of one fewer, uh, strip club serving slaughtered animal is good (presuming you think that fewer slaughtered animals is always good, which is another conversation entirely) but this is clearly more the adoption of a meme than a change in behavior based on some growth in conscience. Posted by MrTimbo | February 14, 2008 12:24 PM Dudes, the only reason there is food at these places is so that you can tell people you go to the Yellow Rose for the lunch buffet. Same reason Playboy has articles. The funniest thing about Ann's post is that she's even talking about the food. Not sure my wife would fall for the ole, "I like their hummus" racket. Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 12:42 PM Guys, take it easy on MY. He's just playing coy about his understanding of strip club economics in order to curry still more favor with Ms. McArdle. I assume that because otherwise it would be ludicrous to suggest he's never seen the barker signs saying "NO COVER! (Two drink minimum)." Coherent arguments indeed. (Rolls eyes.) Posted by The Invisible Groping Hand | February 14, 2008 12:50 PM Daniel, Any idea if they serve falafel? - Bill O. Posted by Bill O'Reilly | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM I can't believe they're using tofu to sell sex. Outrageous. Posted by Egypt Steve | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM "You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say 'Portland, Oregon.' Nobody in the west bothers to specify 'Portland.'" So, when I ask someone from the West Coast how to get to that vegan strip club, y'all say: Well, take the bus into downtown Oregon. Then walk South on Oregon's main street, 'till you're a block past Oregon's City Hall. No wonder all the people in 'Oregon' look so lost. .. Posted by Garmin | February 14, 2008 1:00 PM Matt, you oughta take a trip out the Rose City before further opining on strip-club marketing (happy to supply recommendations). Flounder has it exactly right - in Portland, strip clubs make food a verrry significant part of the marketing. Exhibit A is the aforementioned Acropolis Steakhouse ('Acrop,' for short). Run by an Oregon cattle rancher, this place offers decent 12 ounce steaks about three bucks, as well as plenty of other cheap meaty fair. From my few experiences, a large portion of the acrop's clients - if not going solely for the steak - at least choose the acrop over other nudie bars because of its menu. I wouldn't be surprised if this vegan strip club was prompted by the success of the Acrop - offering a combo of nude girls and cheap food, but targeted at Portland's large vegan community. Acrop: http://portland.citysearch.com/profile/8454360 Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:26 PM Vegan-ness aside, the far more significant aspect of this new strip club is that it will be smoke-free (Oregon still allows smoking in bars). Finally, an Oregonian who understands that one shouldn't have to hazard lung-cancer just to indulge some male curiosity! Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:31 PM Garmin - point taken. My word usage there was screwy. Vanya - Portland, Oregon is a much bigger and more prominent city than Portland, Maine. It's East Coast provincialism that suggests there's some kind of equivalence between them. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:33 PM Oh, and that being said, this is a blog of national interest, so I don't actually have a problem with people specifying the Oregon when it's not clear from context, I was really just pointing out that it looks jarring to me to see the state included there, though it probably is appropriate in a national-interest blog. So, anyway, yeah, no big deal. People in Portland hate L.A. anyway, so it probably serves them right to be compared to a city barely one-tenth its size on the East coast. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:40 PM Bill O'Reilly: It's an honor, sir! They do sell falafel, but those liberal weenies call it "Feel Awful," cause people in Portland hate white, manly, heterosexual guys like us and want us to feel bad about ourselves. Thanks for looking out for me! Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 1:41 PM Ooooo...it's not only meatless it's also SMOKE FREE! A good time will be had by some. (And greetings from Portland. (In Maine. The only Portland that matters!) Posted by FRED | February 14, 2008 2:18 PM If this is a strip club where you can't smoke or eat meat, why not just go all the way and get rid of the naked girls, too? Then we can all feed good about ourselves. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Adam, the provincialism I was referring to you was the fact you found it jarring that MY made it clear to distinguish Portland OREGON. Sure, Portland is somewhat more significant than Portland, Maine - but it's not that significant. If someone writes Paris we can assume they probably don't mean Paris, TX, and if someone writes London we assume they don't mean London, Ontario. I don't think little old Portland, OR reaches that level, NBA team or not. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Oh yeah, and Portland Maine has a topless donut shop! Try and top that with your tired old vegan strip bars, you West Coasters. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:46 PM A topless donut shop? Damn! I take back everything I said about Portland, Maine. I like donuts a lot better than vegan food, anyway. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 3:38 PM Decent food helps draw businessmen on lunch break, don't overlook that. Posted by Senescent | February 14, 2008 3:50 PM There is also the prestige factor. Mohammed Atta and his pal could have stayed anywhere on the East Coast before shuttling in to Boston for boarding their final flight to Paradise. They chose Portland, Maine. Though I understand that Portland Oregon also wishes to be a favored destination of Muslim terrorists by being a "Sanctuary city" where police discourage Patriot Act practices and the reporting of suspicious Muslims. A few black Muslims into running a terror training camp decided to locate near Portland Oregon because the "progressives are very friendly to us, very anti-Zionist". It is unknown if Portland Maine feels it's status as "preferred last stop for Jihadis" is threatened. Let Portland Oregon prove itself! Posted by chris ford | February 14, 2008 4:20 PM This gets down to a divide in the vegetarian movement and the liberal movement as a whole. There are on one hand men and women who are very liberal minded period, on the edge, etc., and are very pro-sex, pro-nudity, pro-human body, porn friendly, etc. I'm part of this group, as were all gay men before the influence of more anti-sex feminists in the 80's and 90's, and most gay men still. Then there are those anti-sex feminists, to whom all sex and nudity and porn and strippers are automatically assumed to be oppressive to women and part of an anti-woman or pro-machoism political movement. I think Friedman is taking the perspective more common to this group. Obviously the two can get into disagreements over the meaning and existence of things like the PETA model ads and the vegan strip club. Posted by Tom | February 14, 2008 5:09 PM Tom, you get to another point. As one of my old Portland roomies argued to me when I was trying to make sense of it all, where else can a 20 year old single mom make a close to 6 figure income? Sure it is degrading and sexist, but many jobs are; $7/hr or working for Bob Packwood are certainly fraught with degradation and/or sexism. Sure there are lots of ways to screw it up like getting into coke or prostitution, but being from one of the meth capitals of the Rockies, I know that these dangers aren't limited to working at a strip club. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:03 PM Ah, but I don't say that dudes are patronizing the strip club because it's vegan, or that the vegan food is the primary draw. I'm responding to the owner's claims that this is his way of promoting veganism. Likewise, the Vegan Vixens say their goal is to get men to stop eating meat. Of course I'm aware that people go to strip clubs to look at nekkid ladies, not for the food. That doesn't mean the club owner and the Vegan Vixens aren't using women's bodies in an attempt to win a few converts to their diet. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:18 PM Oh, and also: That's why self-identified "liberal nice guys" who like vegan food aren't the intended customer. The owner is looking to draw anyone who eats meat, liberal or no. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:22 PM Peter H Sent from - a smarter inbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Just confirms the mentality of what we are up against............. Peter H jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Friday, 15 February, 2008 7:51:38 PMRe: Meat and Nudity  There's some seriously stupid people about. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Friday, February 15, 2008 1:44 PM Re: Meat and Nudity Reacting to a story on the opening of a vegan strip club in Portland, Oregon Ann Friedman remarks: This is definitely part of a trend -- starting with PETA ads -- in which women's bodies are used as a way of promoting veganism and vegetarianism. There's also L.A.'s Vegan Vixens, "sexy, trendy and fun loving women whose goal is to inspire men to live a longer and happier life, by making healthier decisions on what they consume." And now the vegan strip club.One common thread here is that all of these efforts are aimed at making veganism appealing to men. The Maxim-like PETA ads, the Vegan Vixens, the strip club: All are saying it's okay to buck the stereotype of Real Men Eat Red Meat, because here are some naked ladies to reassure you that you're still a superhetero manly man! Almost as if they're saying, you won't even miss eating meat, because you'll get to look at so much of it! Or as Diablo puts it, “We put the meat on the pole, not on the plate.†It's a substitution. This trend seems to confirm much of what Carol Adams observed in the Sexual Politics of Meat -- and then turn it on its head. I think this misreads the vegan strip club concept. Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. The vegan strip club isn't using strippers to sell veganism, it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys. After all, food quality is probably not a significant factor in strip club marketing. Permalink :: Comments (51) :: Share This Comments (51) Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, Aren't they? I mean, yes, you go there for the strippers, but the club makes its money by selling you booze and food while you're there. (I'm assuming the strippers keep the tips) It's like a bar with a big-screen TV is in the business of using football to sell booze and food. But I am quite ready to admit ignorance of the economics of the strip joint. I never really got into the Sopranos. Posted by ajay | February 14, 2008 8:37 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. Let's see Martha Stewart top THAT for presentation. Posted by Don Williams | February 14, 2008 8:40 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. Nope, sorry. They are absolutely using sex to sell booze and food. The dancers are "independent contractors" - they pay a "tip-out" (say, $100) for the privilege of working the joint for the night. They may or may not make a little extra "commission" for pushing drinks. The club makes most of it's money on the food & booze and very little on the cover charge. Or so I'm told Posted by Brautigan | February 14, 2008 8:46 AM I assumed it was because vegan sounds like vagina. Posted by Bill | February 14, 2008 8:54 AM This rancorous division is part of the failed politics of the past, and must come to an end. Let's instead come together around the obvious truths that strip clubs, veganism, and the west coast are all stupid. Posted by not a divider | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM One should follow the links. "FACT: The club’s no-frills Mexican-based menu comes with no description of meals—just a title, like “Fajita Platter $8.00†with “choose steak or chicken†written underneath. (Diablo says he enjoys duping meat-eating customers, and that what’s served is gluten-free, wheat-based soy.)" And yes, of course, the places make most of their money on the booze. Like everyone else in the restaurant business, that's where the margins are. Posted by jayAckroyd | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM What others have said - strip clubs make their money on overpriced drinks. I'm less certain about food, but presumably at least some strip clubs make money on food, as well. Posted by John | February 14, 2008 9:02 AM Even if they have goatees, Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys are probably a bit put off by the tackily exploitative atmosphere of strip clubs in general (see also Brautigan's comment above). I doubt that adding a vegan menu will do much to mitigate that atmosphere. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:07 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Posted by Traven | February 14, 2008 9:13 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. If the room were so dark that the patrons had to go by sense of smell, they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is ... well, never mind. Posted by Peter | February 14, 2008 9:17 AM they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is... The suave and refined M-Yg commenter, always keepin' it classy. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Well everyone in New York knows Robert's is one of the best steakhouses around. Posted by right | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM Wow, some people know a little too much about strip club economics. Posted by Reality Man | February 14, 2008 9:22 AM "it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys." I'm skeptical most liberal nice guys need veganism to "sell" the idea of watching strippers. Alternately if a man has a strong liberal-feminist moral objection to stripping I'm skeptical "oh it benefits veganism" would change his mind. Although I find where that could lead vaguely amusing. "At Nevada's bunny ranch 10% of the profits 'Johns' spend goes to Amnesty International. We also assure all of them are over 21 and that we provide a fund for their children's education. So if you care about third-world dissidents and children's education, screw a hooker today!" Posted by Thomas R | February 14, 2008 9:39 AM Strip clubs sell food? Posted by zak822 | February 14, 2008 9:44 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. But really a little common sense would tell you the point of strip clubs is to use sex to sell overpriced drinks and food. Using sex to sell sex is usually called "prostitution. " Granted, the clubs that feature private lap dances are probably straddling that line... I don't if James Gary has been to Portland, but my impression, based on my sister-in-law among other people, is that in Portland going to strip clubs doesn't have the exploitative Wall Street frat boy stigma it might in a place like NYC or DC, and in fact is a fairly common diversion for liberal hipsters - women as well. It's a very "sex positive" city. No one in Portland makes coy remarks like "or so I am told", they're more likely to recommend the cooler more edgy strip clubs to you. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 9:47 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food Scores in NYC sells Bud Light bottles for about $18 a pop. I'm sure they make some money on the dancers, but the booze is where it's at. Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:53 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. Heh. But he's got a sweet beard and listens to the hippest new bands! Sorry, MY. Can't help busting your mildly dorky chops every now and then... Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:59 AM I've never been to a strip club and I never intend to go, thank the Lord. As a man of the Left, I believe that strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Anyone who defends them ought to be ashamed of themselves. Posted by Hector | February 14, 2008 10:03 AM Natalie Portman's a vegan, and I'm still a rampant carnivore. Nuff Z. Posted by B | February 14, 2008 10:06 AM strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Exactly - that's why people go to them. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 10:13 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:50 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:53 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:55 AM Sorry, I kept getting a 'bad server response' message when I submitted. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:04 AM A few points: 1. You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." 2. This guy had a vegan restaurant before and looks to be using sex to surreptitiously sneak the vegan food into things. Flounder points out correctly that a lot of the young guys in Portland don't have problems with going to strip clubs regardless of their political orientation. Check out the comments on Willamette Week's article on the guy, though, and you'll see that a lot of people feel that (A) His vegan food sucks, even compared to other vegan food, and (B) He's a slimy guy who's looking for a way to make money because his previous restaurant went out of business.http://wweek. com/editorial/ 3413/10351/ 3. In California, at least, there's a big difference between the nude clubs and the topless clubs, since the topless clubs can serve alcohol but the nude ones can't. Nevertheless, most of the bigger clubs are nude, and while I've seen clubs change from topless to nude, I've never seen a club change in the other direction (not that it hasn't happened, just that I think it's rare). 4. Most clubs in L.A. have set rates for lapdances, and I believe this is because they take a certain amount out of each one; what I've heard is that the take from lapdances is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 50/50 split (I assume the dancer would keep any tips). On the other hand, the nude clubs even charge a lot for a drink - in the neighborhood of $9.00 for a Coke, but they usually only have a one-drink minimum. Bottom line: I think they make a lot from the lapdances, but they have the admission (often discounted) and the drink minimum to make sure nobody spends time in the club without paying out a certain minimum. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 11:23 AM The Hustler Club in San Francisco has delicious pancakes. I shit you not. Perhaps this will be the thread that convinces Hector that we're beyond saving, and he'll leave us alone. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 11:57 AM I happened to drive past this place the other day. There's no indication anywhere on the outside of the building that the food is vegan; it just looks like another strip joint. I doubt whether any of the patrons take notice of the food at all. The owner's previous concept (in the same location) was a vegan pirate restaurant (servers dressed in pirate costumes, etc.). That went bust (in more ways than one). The owner is from Southern California, incidentally, so animadversions regarding Portlanders are uncalled for. Posted by Steve | February 14, 2008 12:12 PM You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." You can tell someone's from the West Coast when they say "Portland, Maine." Nobody in New England bothers to specify "Portland." You can also tell when someone's from the East Coast when they say "Springfield, Illinois." Nobody in Illinois bothers to specify "Springfield. " Etc.,etc. West Coast people are so provincial.. . Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 12:14 PM I had a more negative reaction to this until I read the comments above about strip club culture in Portland -- it's possible for me to imagine an environment in which a strip club isn't more exploitative than any other kind of work -- but, still, it is kind of depressing the way progressive causes (veganism, environmentalism, organic food) are taken up in very superficial ways without changing any of the facts on the ground. An irony is that you see this happening to religion too -- with religiosity being expressed by bracelets and t-shirts and references to "relationships to Christ", our weird shadow pop culture of christian rap and all that. I mean -- I guess the economic effects of one fewer, uh, strip club serving slaughtered animal is good (presuming you think that fewer slaughtered animals is always good, which is another conversation entirely) but this is clearly more the adoption of a meme than a change in behavior based on some growth in conscience. Posted by MrTimbo | February 14, 2008 12:24 PM Dudes, the only reason there is food at these places is so that you can tell people you go to the Yellow Rose for the lunch buffet. Same reason Playboy has articles. The funniest thing about Ann's post is that she's even talking about the food. Not sure my wife would fall for the ole, "I like their hummus" racket. Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 12:42 PM Guys, take it easy on MY. He's just playing coy about his understanding of strip club economics in order to curry still more favor with Ms. McArdle. I assume that because otherwise it would be ludicrous to suggest he's never seen the barker signs saying "NO COVER! (Two drink minimum)." Coherent arguments indeed. (Rolls eyes.) Posted by The Invisible Groping Hand | February 14, 2008 12:50 PM Daniel, Any idea if they serve falafel? - Bill O. Posted by Bill O'Reilly | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM I can't believe they're using tofu to sell sex. Outrageous. Posted by Egypt Steve | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM "You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say 'Portland, Oregon.' Nobody in the west bothers to specify 'Portland.'" So, when I ask someone from the West Coast how to get to that vegan strip club, y'all say: Well, take the bus into downtown Oregon. Then walk South on Oregon's main street, 'till you're a block past Oregon's City Hall. No wonder all the people in 'Oregon' look so lost. .. Posted by Garmin | February 14, 2008 1:00 PM Matt, you oughta take a trip out the Rose City before further opining on strip-club marketing (happy to supply recommendations) . Flounder has it exactly right - in Portland, strip clubs make food a verrry significant part of the marketing. Exhibit A is the aforementioned Acropolis Steakhouse ('Acrop,' for short). Run by an Oregon cattle rancher, this place offers decent 12 ounce steaks about three bucks, as well as plenty of other cheap meaty fair. From my few experiences, a large portion of the acrop's clients - if not going solely for the steak - at least choose the acrop over other nudie bars because of its menu. I wouldn't be surprised if this vegan strip club was prompted by the success of the Acrop - offering a combo of nude girls and cheap food, but targeted at Portland's large vegan community. Acrop: http://portland. citysearch. com/profile/ 8454360 Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:26 PM Vegan-ness aside, the far more significant aspect of this new strip club is that it will be smoke-free (Oregon still allows smoking in bars). Finally, an Oregonian who understands that one shouldn't have to hazard lung-cancer just to indulge some male curiosity! Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:31 PM Garmin - point taken. My word usage there was screwy. Vanya - Portland, Oregon is a much bigger and more prominent city than Portland, Maine. It's East Coast provincialism that suggests there's some kind of equivalence between them. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:33 PM Oh, and that being said, this is a blog of national interest, so I don't actually have a problem with people specifying the Oregon when it's not clear from context, I was really just pointing out that it looks jarring to me to see the state included there, though it probably is appropriate in a national-interest blog. So, anyway, yeah, no big deal. People in Portland hate L.A. anyway, so it probably serves them right to be compared to a city barely one-tenth its size on the East coast. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:40 PM Bill O'Reilly: It's an honor, sir! They do sell falafel, but those liberal weenies call it "Feel Awful," cause people in Portland hate white, manly, heterosexual guys like us and want us to feel bad about ourselves. Thanks for looking out for me! Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 1:41 PM Ooooo...it's not only meatless it's also SMOKE FREE! A good time will be had by some. (And greetings from Portland. (In Maine. The only Portland that matters!) Posted by FRED | February 14, 2008 2:18 PM If this is a strip club where you can't smoke or eat meat, why not just go all the way and get rid of the naked girls, too? Then we can all feed good about ourselves. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Adam, the provincialism I was referring to you was the fact you found it jarring that MY made it clear to distinguish Portland OREGON. Sure, Portland is somewhat more significant than Portland, Maine - but it's not that significant. If someone writes Paris we can assume they probably don't mean Paris, TX, and if someone writes London we assume they don't mean London, Ontario. I don't think little old Portland, OR reaches that level, NBA team or not. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Oh yeah, and Portland Maine has a topless donut shop! Try and top that with your tired old vegan strip bars, you West Coasters. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:46 PM A topless donut shop? Damn! I take back everything I said about Portland, Maine. I like donuts a lot better than vegan food, anyway. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 3:38 PM Decent food helps draw businessmen on lunch break, don't overlook that. Posted by Senescent | February 14, 2008 3:50 PM There is also the prestige factor. Mohammed Atta and his pal could have stayed anywhere on the East Coast before shuttling in to Boston for boarding their final flight to Paradise. They chose Portland, Maine. Though I understand that Portland Oregon also wishes to be a favored destination of Muslim terrorists by being a "Sanctuary city" where police discourage Patriot Act practices and the reporting of suspicious Muslims. A few black Muslims into running a terror training camp decided to locate near Portland Oregon because the "progressives are very friendly to us, very anti-Zionist" . It is unknown if Portland Maine feels it's status as "preferred last stop for Jihadis" is threatened. Let Portland Oregon prove itself! Posted by chris ford | February 14, 2008 4:20 PM This gets down to a divide in the vegetarian movement and the liberal movement as a whole. There are on one hand men and women who are very liberal minded period, on the edge, etc., and are very pro-sex, pro-nudity, pro-human body, porn friendly, etc. I'm part of this group, as were all gay men before the influence of more anti-sex feminists in the 80's and 90's, and most gay men still. Then there are those anti-sex feminists, to whom all sex and nudity and porn and strippers are automatically assumed to be oppressive to women and part of an anti-woman or pro-machoism political movement. I think Friedman is taking the perspective more common to this group. Obviously the two can get into disagreements over the meaning and existence of things like the PETA model ads and the vegan strip club. Posted by Tom | February 14, 2008 5:09 PM Tom, you get to another point. As one of my old Portland roomies argued to me when I was trying to make sense of it all, where else can a 20 year old single mom make a close to 6 figure income? Sure it is degrading and sexist, but many jobs are; $7/hr or working for Bob Packwood are certainly fraught with degradation and/or sexism. Sure there are lots of ways to screw it up like getting into coke or prostitution, but being from one of the meth capitals of the Rockies, I know that these dangers aren't limited to working at a strip club. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:03 PM Ah, but I don't say that dudes are patronizing the strip club because it's vegan, or that the vegan food is the primary draw. I'm responding to the owner's claims that this is his way of promoting veganism. Likewise, the Vegan Vixens say their goal is to get men to stop eating meat. Of course I'm aware that people go to strip clubs to look at nekkid ladies, not for the food. That doesn't mean the club owner and the Vegan Vixens aren't using women's bodies in an attempt to win a few converts to their diet. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:18 PM Oh, and also: That's why self-identified "liberal nice guys" who like vegan food aren't the intended customer. The owner is looking to draw anyone who eats meat, liberal or no. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:22 PM Peter H Sent from - a smarter inbox. Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with for Good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008  When you say 'we' who do you mean? Jo - Peter VV Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:03 AM Re: Meat and Nudity Just confirms the mentality of what we are up against............. Peter H jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Friday, 15 February, 2008 7:51:38 PMRe: Meat and Nudity  There's some seriously stupid people about. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Friday, February 15, 2008 1:44 PM Re: Meat and Nudity Reacting to a story on the opening of a vegan strip club in Portland, Oregon Ann Friedman remarks: This is definitely part of a trend -- starting with PETA ads -- in which women's bodies are used as a way of promoting veganism and vegetarianism. There's also L.A.'s Vegan Vixens, "sexy, trendy and fun loving women whose goal is to inspire men to live a longer and happier life, by making healthier decisions on what they consume." And now the vegan strip club.One common thread here is that all of these efforts are aimed at making veganism appealing to men. The Maxim-like PETA ads, the Vegan Vixens, the strip club: All are saying it's okay to buck the stereotype of Real Men Eat Red Meat, because here are some naked ladies to reassure you that you're still a superhetero manly man! Almost as if they're saying, you won't even miss eating meat, because you'll get to look at so much of it! Or as Diablo puts it, “We put the meat on the pole, not on the plate.†It's a substitution. This trend seems to confirm much of what Carol Adams observed in the Sexual Politics of Meat -- and then turn it on its head. I think this misreads the vegan strip club concept. Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. The vegan strip club isn't using strippers to sell veganism, it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys. After all, food quality is probably not a significant factor in strip club marketing. Permalink :: Comments (51) :: Share This Comments (51) Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, Aren't they? I mean, yes, you go there for the strippers, but the club makes its money by selling you booze and food while you're there. (I'm assuming the strippers keep the tips) It's like a bar with a big-screen TV is in the business of using football to sell booze and food. But I am quite ready to admit ignorance of the economics of the strip joint. I never really got into the Sopranos. Posted by ajay | February 14, 2008 8:37 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. Let's see Martha Stewart top THAT for presentation. Posted by Don Williams | February 14, 2008 8:40 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. Nope, sorry. They are absolutely using sex to sell booze and food. The dancers are "independent contractors" - they pay a "tip-out" (say, $100) for the privilege of working the joint for the night. They may or may not make a little extra "commission" for pushing drinks. The club makes most of it's money on the food & booze and very little on the cover charge. Or so I'm told Posted by Brautigan | February 14, 2008 8:46 AM I assumed it was because vegan sounds like vagina. Posted by Bill | February 14, 2008 8:54 AM This rancorous division is part of the failed politics of the past, and must come to an end. Let's instead come together around the obvious truths that strip clubs, veganism, and the west coast are all stupid. Posted by not a divider | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM One should follow the links. "FACT: The club’s no-frills Mexican-based menu comes with no description of meals—just a title, like “Fajita Platter $8.00†with “choose steak or chicken†written underneath. (Diablo says he enjoys duping meat-eating customers, and that what’s served is gluten-free, wheat-based soy.)" And yes, of course, the places make most of their money on the booze. Like everyone else in the restaurant business, that's where the margins are. Posted by jayAckroyd | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM What others have said - strip clubs make their money on overpriced drinks. I'm less certain about food, but presumably at least some strip clubs make money on food, as well. Posted by John | February 14, 2008 9:02 AM Even if they have goatees, Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys are probably a bit put off by the tackily exploitative atmosphere of strip clubs in general (see also Brautigan's comment above). I doubt that adding a vegan menu will do much to mitigate that atmosphere. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:07 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Posted by Traven | February 14, 2008 9:13 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. If the room were so dark that the patrons had to go by sense of smell, they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is ... well, never mind. Posted by Peter | February 14, 2008 9:17 AM they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is... The suave and refined M-Yg commenter, always keepin' it classy. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Well everyone in New York knows Robert's is one of the best steakhouses around. Posted by right | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM Wow, some people know a little too much about strip club economics. Posted by Reality Man | February 14, 2008 9:22 AM "it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys." I'm skeptical most liberal nice guys need veganism to "sell" the idea of watching strippers. Alternately if a man has a strong liberal-feminist moral objection to stripping I'm skeptical "oh it benefits veganism" would change his mind. Although I find where that could lead vaguely amusing. "At Nevada's bunny ranch 10% of the profits 'Johns' spend goes to Amnesty International. We also assure all of them are over 21 and that we provide a fund for their children's education. So if you care about third-world dissidents and children's education, screw a hooker today!" Posted by Thomas R | February 14, 2008 9:39 AM Strip clubs sell food? Posted by zak822 | February 14, 2008 9:44 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. But really a little common sense would tell you the point of strip clubs is to use sex to sell overpriced drinks and food. Using sex to sell sex is usually called "prostitution. " Granted, the clubs that feature private lap dances are probably straddling that line... I don't if James Gary has been to Portland, but my impression, based on my sister-in-law among other people, is that in Portland going to strip clubs doesn't have the exploitative Wall Street frat boy stigma it might in a place like NYC or DC, and in fact is a fairly common diversion for liberal hipsters - women as well. It's a very "sex positive" city. No one in Portland makes coy remarks like "or so I am told", they're more likely to recommend the cooler more edgy strip clubs to you. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 9:47 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food Scores in NYC sells Bud Light bottles for about $18 a pop. I'm sure they make some money on the dancers, but the booze is where it's at. Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:53 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. Heh. But he's got a sweet beard and listens to the hippest new bands! Sorry, MY. Can't help busting your mildly dorky chops every now and then... Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:59 AM I've never been to a strip club and I never intend to go, thank the Lord. As a man of the Left, I believe that strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Anyone who defends them ought to be ashamed of themselves. Posted by Hector | February 14, 2008 10:03 AM Natalie Portman's a vegan, and I'm still a rampant carnivore. Nuff Z. Posted by B | February 14, 2008 10:06 AM strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Exactly - that's why people go to them. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 10:13 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:50 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:53 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:55 AM Sorry, I kept getting a 'bad server response' message when I submitted. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:04 AM A few points: 1. You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." 2. This guy had a vegan restaurant before and looks to be using sex to surreptitiously sneak the vegan food into things. Flounder points out correctly that a lot of the young guys in Portland don't have problems with going to strip clubs regardless of their political orientation. Check out the comments on Willamette Week's article on the guy, though, and you'll see that a lot of people feel that (A) His vegan food sucks, even compared to other vegan food, and (B) He's a slimy guy who's looking for a way to make money because his previous restaurant went out of business.http://wweek. com/editorial/ 3413/10351/ 3. In California, at least, there's a big difference between the nude clubs and the topless clubs, since the topless clubs can serve alcohol but the nude ones can't. Nevertheless, most of the bigger clubs are nude, and while I've seen clubs change from topless to nude, I've never seen a club change in the other direction (not that it hasn't happened, just that I think it's rare). 4. Most clubs in L.A. have set rates for lapdances, and I believe this is because they take a certain amount out of each one; what I've heard is that the take from lapdances is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 50/50 split (I assume the dancer would keep any tips). On the other hand, the nude clubs even charge a lot for a drink - in the neighborhood of $9.00 for a Coke, but they usually only have a one-drink minimum. Bottom line: I think they make a lot from the lapdances, but they have the admission (often discounted) and the drink minimum to make sure nobody spends time in the club without paying out a certain minimum. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 11:23 AM The Hustler Club in San Francisco has delicious pancakes. I shit you not. Perhaps this will be the thread that convinces Hector that we're beyond saving, and he'll leave us alone. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 11:57 AM I happened to drive past this place the other day. There's no indication anywhere on the outside of the building that the food is vegan; it just looks like another strip joint. I doubt whether any of the patrons take notice of the food at all. The owner's previous concept (in the same location) was a vegan pirate restaurant (servers dressed in pirate costumes, etc.). That went bust (in more ways than one). The owner is from Southern California, incidentally, so animadversions regarding Portlanders are uncalled for. Posted by Steve | February 14, 2008 12:12 PM You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." You can tell someone's from the West Coast when they say "Portland, Maine." Nobody in New England bothers to specify "Portland." You can also tell when someone's from the East Coast when they say "Springfield, Illinois." Nobody in Illinois bothers to specify "Springfield. " Etc.,etc. West Coast people are so provincial.. . Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 12:14 PM I had a more negative reaction to this until I read the comments above about strip club culture in Portland -- it's possible for me to imagine an environment in which a strip club isn't more exploitative than any other kind of work -- but, still, it is kind of depressing the way progressive causes (veganism, environmentalism, organic food) are taken up in very superficial ways without changing any of the facts on the ground. An irony is that you see this happening to religion too -- with religiosity being expressed by bracelets and t-shirts and references to "relationships to Christ", our weird shadow pop culture of christian rap and all that. I mean -- I guess the economic effects of one fewer, uh, strip club serving slaughtered animal is good (presuming you think that fewer slaughtered animals is always good, which is another conversation entirely) but this is clearly more the adoption of a meme than a change in behavior based on some growth in conscience. Posted by MrTimbo | February 14, 2008 12:24 PM Dudes, the only reason there is food at these places is so that you can tell people you go to the Yellow Rose for the lunch buffet. Same reason Playboy has articles. The funniest thing about Ann's post is that she's even talking about the food. Not sure my wife would fall for the ole, "I like their hummus" racket. Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 12:42 PM Guys, take it easy on MY. He's just playing coy about his understanding of strip club economics in order to curry still more favor with Ms. McArdle. I assume that because otherwise it would be ludicrous to suggest he's never seen the barker signs saying "NO COVER! (Two drink minimum)." Coherent arguments indeed. (Rolls eyes.) Posted by The Invisible Groping Hand | February 14, 2008 12:50 PM Daniel, Any idea if they serve falafel? - Bill O. Posted by Bill O'Reilly | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM I can't believe they're using tofu to sell sex. Outrageous. Posted by Egypt Steve | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM "You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say 'Portland, Oregon.' Nobody in the west bothers to specify 'Portland.'" So, when I ask someone from the West Coast how to get to that vegan strip club, y'all say: Well, take the bus into downtown Oregon. Then walk South on Oregon's main street, 'till you're a block past Oregon's City Hall. No wonder all the people in 'Oregon' look so lost. .. Posted by Garmin | February 14, 2008 1:00 PM Matt, you oughta take a trip out the Rose City before further opining on strip-club marketing (happy to supply recommendations) . Flounder has it exactly right - in Portland, strip clubs make food a verrry significant part of the marketing. Exhibit A is the aforementioned Acropolis Steakhouse ('Acrop,' for short). Run by an Oregon cattle rancher, this place offers decent 12 ounce steaks about three bucks, as well as plenty of other cheap meaty fair. From my few experiences, a large portion of the acrop's clients - if not going solely for the steak - at least choose the acrop over other nudie bars because of its menu. I wouldn't be surprised if this vegan strip club was prompted by the success of the Acrop - offering a combo of nude girls and cheap food, but targeted at Portland's large vegan community. Acrop: http://portland. citysearch. com/profile/ 8454360 Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:26 PM Vegan-ness aside, the far more significant aspect of this new strip club is that it will be smoke-free (Oregon still allows smoking in bars). Finally, an Oregonian who understands that one shouldn't have to hazard lung-cancer just to indulge some male curiosity! Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:31 PM Garmin - point taken. My word usage there was screwy. Vanya - Portland, Oregon is a much bigger and more prominent city than Portland, Maine. It's East Coast provincialism that suggests there's some kind of equivalence between them. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:33 PM Oh, and that being said, this is a blog of national interest, so I don't actually have a problem with people specifying the Oregon when it's not clear from context, I was really just pointing out that it looks jarring to me to see the state included there, though it probably is appropriate in a national-interest blog. So, anyway, yeah, no big deal. People in Portland hate L.A. anyway, so it probably serves them right to be compared to a city barely one-tenth its size on the East coast. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:40 PM Bill O'Reilly: It's an honor, sir! They do sell falafel, but those liberal weenies call it "Feel Awful," cause people in Portland hate white, manly, heterosexual guys like us and want us to feel bad about ourselves. Thanks for looking out for me! Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 1:41 PM Ooooo...it's not only meatless it's also SMOKE FREE! A good time will be had by some. (And greetings from Portland. (In Maine. The only Portland that matters!) Posted by FRED | February 14, 2008 2:18 PM If this is a strip club where you can't smoke or eat meat, why not just go all the way and get rid of the naked girls, too? Then we can all feed good about ourselves. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Adam, the provincialism I was referring to you was the fact you found it jarring that MY made it clear to distinguish Portland OREGON. Sure, Portland is somewhat more significant than Portland, Maine - but it's not that significant. If someone writes Paris we can assume they probably don't mean Paris, TX, and if someone writes London we assume they don't mean London, Ontario. I don't think little old Portland, OR reaches that level, NBA team or not. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Oh yeah, and Portland Maine has a topless donut shop! Try and top that with your tired old vegan strip bars, you West Coasters. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:46 PM A topless donut shop? Damn! I take back everything I said about Portland, Maine. I like donuts a lot better than vegan food, anyway. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 3:38 PM Decent food helps draw businessmen on lunch break, don't overlook that. Posted by Senescent | February 14, 2008 3:50 PM There is also the prestige factor. Mohammed Atta and his pal could have stayed anywhere on the East Coast before shuttling in to Boston for boarding their final flight to Paradise. They chose Portland, Maine. Though I understand that Portland Oregon also wishes to be a favored destination of Muslim terrorists by being a "Sanctuary city" where police discourage Patriot Act practices and the reporting of suspicious Muslims. A few black Muslims into running a terror training camp decided to locate near Portland Oregon because the "progressives are very friendly to us, very anti-Zionist" . It is unknown if Portland Maine feels it's status as "preferred last stop for Jihadis" is threatened. Let Portland Oregon prove itself! Posted by chris ford | February 14, 2008 4:20 PM This gets down to a divide in the vegetarian movement and the liberal movement as a whole. There are on one hand men and women who are very liberal minded period, on the edge, etc., and are very pro-sex, pro-nudity, pro-human body, porn friendly, etc. I'm part of this group, as were all gay men before the influence of more anti-sex feminists in the 80's and 90's, and most gay men still. Then there are those anti-sex feminists, to whom all sex and nudity and porn and strippers are automatically assumed to be oppressive to women and part of an anti-woman or pro-machoism political movement. I think Friedman is taking the perspective more common to this group. Obviously the two can get into disagreements over the meaning and existence of things like the PETA model ads and the vegan strip club. Posted by Tom | February 14, 2008 5:09 PM Tom, you get to another point. As one of my old Portland roomies argued to me when I was trying to make sense of it all, where else can a 20 year old single mom make a close to 6 figure income? Sure it is degrading and sexist, but many jobs are; $7/hr or working for Bob Packwood are certainly fraught with degradation and/or sexism. Sure there are lots of ways to screw it up like getting into coke or prostitution, but being from one of the meth capitals of the Rockies, I know that these dangers aren't limited to working at a strip club. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:03 PM Ah, but I don't say that dudes are patronizing the strip club because it's vegan, or that the vegan food is the primary draw. I'm responding to the owner's claims that this is his way of promoting veganism. Likewise, the Vegan Vixens say their goal is to get men to stop eating meat. Of course I'm aware that people go to strip clubs to look at nekkid ladies, not for the food. That doesn't mean the club owner and the Vegan Vixens aren't using women's bodies in an attempt to win a few converts to their diet. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:18 PM Oh, and also: That's why self-identified "liberal nice guys" who like vegan food aren't the intended customer. The owner is looking to draw anyone who eats meat, liberal or no. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:22 PM Peter H Sent from - a smarter inbox. Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with for Good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 open minded vegans, apologies if you thought I was speaking on your behalf.......... Peter H jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Saturday, 16 February, 2008 9:08:56 AMRe: Meat and Nudity  When you say 'we' who do you mean? Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:03 AM Re: Meat and Nudity Just confirms the mentality of what we are up against..... ........ Peter H jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comFriday, 15 February, 2008 7:51:38 PMRe: Meat and Nudity  There's some seriously stupid people about. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Friday, February 15, 2008 1:44 PM Re: Meat and Nudity Reacting to a story on the opening of a vegan strip club in Portland, Oregon Ann Friedman remarks: This is definitely part of a trend -- starting with PETA ads -- in which women's bodies are used as a way of promoting veganism and vegetarianism. There's also L.A.'s Vegan Vixens, "sexy, trendy and fun loving women whose goal is to inspire men to live a longer and happier life, by making healthier decisions on what they consume." And now the vegan strip club.One common thread here is that all of these efforts are aimed at making veganism appealing to men. The Maxim-like PETA ads, the Vegan Vixens, the strip club: All are saying it's okay to buck the stereotype of Real Men Eat Red Meat, because here are some naked ladies to reassure you that you're still a superhetero manly man! Almost as if they're saying, you won't even miss eating meat, because you'll get to look at so much of it! Or as Diablo puts it, “We put the meat on the pole, not on the plate.†It's a substitution. This trend seems to confirm much of what Carol Adams observed in the Sexual Politics of Meat -- and then turn it on its head. I think this misreads the vegan strip club concept. Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. The vegan strip club isn't using strippers to sell veganism, it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys. After all, food quality is probably not a significant factor in strip club marketing. Permalink :: Comments (51) :: Share This Comments (51) Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, Aren't they? I mean, yes, you go there for the strippers, but the club makes its money by selling you booze and food while you're there. (I'm assuming the strippers keep the tips) It's like a bar with a big-screen TV is in the business of using football to sell booze and food. But I am quite ready to admit ignorance of the economics of the strip joint. I never really got into the Sopranos. Posted by ajay | February 14, 2008 8:37 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. Let's see Martha Stewart top THAT for presentation. Posted by Don Williams | February 14, 2008 8:40 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food, they're using sex to sell sex. Nope, sorry. They are absolutely using sex to sell booze and food. The dancers are "independent contractors" - they pay a "tip-out" (say, $100) for the privilege of working the joint for the night. They may or may not make a little extra "commission" for pushing drinks. The club makes most of it's money on the food & booze and very little on the cover charge. Or so I'm told Posted by Brautigan | February 14, 2008 8:46 AM I assumed it was because vegan sounds like vagina. Posted by Bill | February 14, 2008 8:54 AM This rancorous division is part of the failed politics of the past, and must come to an end. Let's instead come together around the obvious truths that strip clubs, veganism, and the west coast are all stupid. Posted by not a divider | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM One should follow the links. "FACT: The club’s no-frills Mexican-based menu comes with no description of meals—just a title, like “Fajita Platter $8.00†with “choose steak or chicken†written underneath. (Diablo says he enjoys duping meat-eating customers, and that what’s served is gluten-free, wheat-based soy.)" And yes, of course, the places make most of their money on the booze. Like everyone else in the restaurant business, that's where the margins are. Posted by jayAckroyd | February 14, 2008 9:00 AM What others have said - strip clubs make their money on overpriced drinks. I'm less certain about food, but presumably at least some strip clubs make money on food, as well. Posted by John | February 14, 2008 9:02 AM Even if they have goatees, Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys are probably a bit put off by the tackily exploitative atmosphere of strip clubs in general (see also Brautigan's comment above). I doubt that adding a vegan menu will do much to mitigate that atmosphere. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:07 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Posted by Traven | February 14, 2008 9:13 AM How about the Asian compromise? Have a naked woman lie down on top of the buffet table and then put strips of sushi on her body. Sushi lovers then ..uh.. serve themselves. If the room were so dark that the patrons had to go by sense of smell, they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is ... well, never mind. Posted by Peter | February 14, 2008 9:17 AM they might find it hard to tell what is tuna sushi and what is... The suave and refined M-Yg commenter, always keepin' it classy. Posted by James Gary | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM I always check Zagat's before deciding on my strip club experience. Well everyone in New York knows Robert's is one of the best steakhouses around. Posted by right | February 14, 2008 9:21 AM Wow, some people know a little too much about strip club economics. Posted by Reality Man | February 14, 2008 9:22 AM "it's using veganism to sell stripping to Portland-area guys with self-conceptions as liberal nice guys." I'm skeptical most liberal nice guys need veganism to "sell" the idea of watching strippers. Alternately if a man has a strong liberal-feminist moral objection to stripping I'm skeptical "oh it benefits veganism" would change his mind. Although I find where that could lead vaguely amusing. "At Nevada's bunny ranch 10% of the profits 'Johns' spend goes to Amnesty International. We also assure all of them are over 21 and that we provide a fund for their children's education. So if you care about third-world dissidents and children's education, screw a hooker today!" Posted by Thomas R | February 14, 2008 9:39 AM Strip clubs sell food? Posted by zak822 | February 14, 2008 9:44 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. But really a little common sense would tell you the point of strip clubs is to use sex to sell overpriced drinks and food. Using sex to sell sex is usually called "prostitution. " Granted, the clubs that feature private lap dances are probably straddling that line... I don't if James Gary has been to Portland, but my impression, based on my sister-in-law among other people, is that in Portland going to strip clubs doesn't have the exploitative Wall Street frat boy stigma it might in a place like NYC or DC, and in fact is a fairly common diversion for liberal hipsters - women as well. It's a very "sex positive" city. No one in Portland makes coy remarks like "or so I am told", they're more likely to recommend the cooler more edgy strip clubs to you. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 9:47 AM Strip clubs in general aren't in the business of using sex to sell booze and food Scores in NYC sells Bud Light bottles for about $18 a pop. I'm sure they make some money on the dancers, but the booze is where it's at. Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:53 AM Well, now we know that MY ain't exactly a worldly guy. Heh. But he's got a sweet beard and listens to the hippest new bands! Sorry, MY. Can't help busting your mildly dorky chops every now and then... Posted by owenz | February 14, 2008 9:59 AM I've never been to a strip club and I never intend to go, thank the Lord. As a man of the Left, I believe that strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Anyone who defends them ought to be ashamed of themselves. Posted by Hector | February 14, 2008 10:03 AM Natalie Portman's a vegan, and I'm still a rampant carnivore. Nuff Z. Posted by B | February 14, 2008 10:06 AM strip clubs are repulsive, exploitative, degrading and immoral. Exactly - that's why people go to them. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 10:13 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:50 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:53 AM I have to believe this is a more local issue then it may appear. Portland has the highest per capita strip club rate in the US. There is competition; about every other bar there is a strip club, and if you enjoy the nightlife there, eventually you will end up in one at some point, often in mixed company. When I lived there we used to occasionally go to a strip club called the Acropolis because you could get a steak or steak and eggs (they opened at 7AM) for $3.99. There was also someplace downtown that had good mexican food.Vegan food is simply another niche in a competitive market. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 10:55 AM Sorry, I kept getting a 'bad server response' message when I submitted. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:04 AM A few points: 1. You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." 2. This guy had a vegan restaurant before and looks to be using sex to surreptitiously sneak the vegan food into things. Flounder points out correctly that a lot of the young guys in Portland don't have problems with going to strip clubs regardless of their political orientation. Check out the comments on Willamette Week's article on the guy, though, and you'll see that a lot of people feel that (A) His vegan food sucks, even compared to other vegan food, and (B) He's a slimy guy who's looking for a way to make money because his previous restaurant went out of business.http://wweek. com/editorial/ 3413/10351/ 3. In California, at least, there's a big difference between the nude clubs and the topless clubs, since the topless clubs can serve alcohol but the nude ones can't. Nevertheless, most of the bigger clubs are nude, and while I've seen clubs change from topless to nude, I've never seen a club change in the other direction (not that it hasn't happened, just that I think it's rare). 4. Most clubs in L.A. have set rates for lapdances, and I believe this is because they take a certain amount out of each one; what I've heard is that the take from lapdances is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 50/50 split (I assume the dancer would keep any tips). On the other hand, the nude clubs even charge a lot for a drink - in the neighborhood of $9.00 for a Coke, but they usually only have a one-drink minimum. Bottom line: I think they make a lot from the lapdances, but they have the admission (often discounted) and the drink minimum to make sure nobody spends time in the club without paying out a certain minimum. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 11:23 AM The Hustler Club in San Francisco has delicious pancakes. I shit you not. Perhaps this will be the thread that convinces Hector that we're beyond saving, and he'll leave us alone. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 11:57 AM I happened to drive past this place the other day. There's no indication anywhere on the outside of the building that the food is vegan; it just looks like another strip joint. I doubt whether any of the patrons take notice of the food at all. The owner's previous concept (in the same location) was a vegan pirate restaurant (servers dressed in pirate costumes, etc.). That went bust (in more ways than one). The owner is from Southern California, incidentally, so animadversions regarding Portlanders are uncalled for. Posted by Steve | February 14, 2008 12:12 PM You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say "Portland, Oregon." Nobody in the west bothers to specify "Portland." You can tell someone's from the West Coast when they say "Portland, Maine." Nobody in New England bothers to specify "Portland." You can also tell when someone's from the East Coast when they say "Springfield, Illinois." Nobody in Illinois bothers to specify "Springfield. " Etc.,etc. West Coast people are so provincial.. . Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 12:14 PM I had a more negative reaction to this until I read the comments above about strip club culture in Portland -- it's possible for me to imagine an environment in which a strip club isn't more exploitative than any other kind of work -- but, still, it is kind of depressing the way progressive causes (veganism, environmentalism, organic food) are taken up in very superficial ways without changing any of the facts on the ground. An irony is that you see this happening to religion too -- with religiosity being expressed by bracelets and t-shirts and references to "relationships to Christ", our weird shadow pop culture of christian rap and all that. I mean -- I guess the economic effects of one fewer, uh, strip club serving slaughtered animal is good (presuming you think that fewer slaughtered animals is always good, which is another conversation entirely) but this is clearly more the adoption of a meme than a change in behavior based on some growth in conscience. Posted by MrTimbo | February 14, 2008 12:24 PM Dudes, the only reason there is food at these places is so that you can tell people you go to the Yellow Rose for the lunch buffet. Same reason Playboy has articles. The funniest thing about Ann's post is that she's even talking about the food. Not sure my wife would fall for the ole, "I like their hummus" racket. Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 12:42 PM Guys, take it easy on MY. He's just playing coy about his understanding of strip club economics in order to curry still more favor with Ms. McArdle. I assume that because otherwise it would be ludicrous to suggest he's never seen the barker signs saying "NO COVER! (Two drink minimum)." Coherent arguments indeed. (Rolls eyes.) Posted by The Invisible Groping Hand | February 14, 2008 12:50 PM Daniel, Any idea if they serve falafel? - Bill O. Posted by Bill O'Reilly | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM I can't believe they're using tofu to sell sex. Outrageous. Posted by Egypt Steve | February 14, 2008 12:53 PM "You can tell someone's from the East Coast when they say 'Portland, Oregon.' Nobody in the west bothers to specify 'Portland.'" So, when I ask someone from the West Coast how to get to that vegan strip club, y'all say: Well, take the bus into downtown Oregon. Then walk South on Oregon's main street, 'till you're a block past Oregon's City Hall. No wonder all the people in 'Oregon' look so lost. .. Posted by Garmin | February 14, 2008 1:00 PM Matt, you oughta take a trip out the Rose City before further opining on strip-club marketing (happy to supply recommendations) . Flounder has it exactly right - in Portland, strip clubs make food a verrry significant part of the marketing. Exhibit A is the aforementioned Acropolis Steakhouse ('Acrop,' for short). Run by an Oregon cattle rancher, this place offers decent 12 ounce steaks about three bucks, as well as plenty of other cheap meaty fair. From my few experiences, a large portion of the acrop's clients - if not going solely for the steak - at least choose the acrop over other nudie bars because of its menu. I wouldn't be surprised if this vegan strip club was prompted by the success of the Acrop - offering a combo of nude girls and cheap food, but targeted at Portland's large vegan community. Acrop: http://portland. citysearch. com/profile/ 8454360 Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:26 PM Vegan-ness aside, the far more significant aspect of this new strip club is that it will be smoke-free (Oregon still allows smoking in bars). Finally, an Oregonian who understands that one shouldn't have to hazard lung-cancer just to indulge some male curiosity! Posted by Reid Capalino | February 14, 2008 1:31 PM Garmin - point taken. My word usage there was screwy. Vanya - Portland, Oregon is a much bigger and more prominent city than Portland, Maine. It's East Coast provincialism that suggests there's some kind of equivalence between them. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:33 PM Oh, and that being said, this is a blog of national interest, so I don't actually have a problem with people specifying the Oregon when it's not clear from context, I was really just pointing out that it looks jarring to me to see the state included there, though it probably is appropriate in a national-interest blog. So, anyway, yeah, no big deal. People in Portland hate L.A. anyway, so it probably serves them right to be compared to a city barely one-tenth its size on the East coast. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 1:40 PM Bill O'Reilly: It's an honor, sir! They do sell falafel, but those liberal weenies call it "Feel Awful," cause people in Portland hate white, manly, heterosexual guys like us and want us to feel bad about ourselves. Thanks for looking out for me! Posted by Daniel | February 14, 2008 1:41 PM Ooooo...it's not only meatless it's also SMOKE FREE! A good time will be had by some. (And greetings from Portland. (In Maine. The only Portland that matters!) Posted by FRED | February 14, 2008 2:18 PM If this is a strip club where you can't smoke or eat meat, why not just go all the way and get rid of the naked girls, too? Then we can all feed good about ourselves. Posted by too many steves | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Adam, the provincialism I was referring to you was the fact you found it jarring that MY made it clear to distinguish Portland OREGON. Sure, Portland is somewhat more significant than Portland, Maine - but it's not that significant. If someone writes Paris we can assume they probably don't mean Paris, TX, and if someone writes London we assume they don't mean London, Ontario. I don't think little old Portland, OR reaches that level, NBA team or not. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:43 PM Oh yeah, and Portland Maine has a topless donut shop! Try and top that with your tired old vegan strip bars, you West Coasters. Posted by vanya | February 14, 2008 2:46 PM A topless donut shop? Damn! I take back everything I said about Portland, Maine. I like donuts a lot better than vegan food, anyway. Posted by Adam Villani | February 14, 2008 3:38 PM Decent food helps draw businessmen on lunch break, don't overlook that. Posted by Senescent | February 14, 2008 3:50 PM There is also the prestige factor. Mohammed Atta and his pal could have stayed anywhere on the East Coast before shuttling in to Boston for boarding their final flight to Paradise. They chose Portland, Maine. Though I understand that Portland Oregon also wishes to be a favored destination of Muslim terrorists by being a "Sanctuary city" where police discourage Patriot Act practices and the reporting of suspicious Muslims. A few black Muslims into running a terror training camp decided to locate near Portland Oregon because the "progressives are very friendly to us, very anti-Zionist" . It is unknown if Portland Maine feels it's status as "preferred last stop for Jihadis" is threatened. Let Portland Oregon prove itself! Posted by chris ford | February 14, 2008 4:20 PM This gets down to a divide in the vegetarian movement and the liberal movement as a whole. There are on one hand men and women who are very liberal minded period, on the edge, etc., and are very pro-sex, pro-nudity, pro-human body, porn friendly, etc. I'm part of this group, as were all gay men before the influence of more anti-sex feminists in the 80's and 90's, and most gay men still. Then there are those anti-sex feminists, to whom all sex and nudity and porn and strippers are automatically assumed to be oppressive to women and part of an anti-woman or pro-machoism political movement. I think Friedman is taking the perspective more common to this group. Obviously the two can get into disagreements over the meaning and existence of things like the PETA model ads and the vegan strip club. Posted by Tom | February 14, 2008 5:09 PM Tom, you get to another point. As one of my old Portland roomies argued to me when I was trying to make sense of it all, where else can a 20 year old single mom make a close to 6 figure income? Sure it is degrading and sexist, but many jobs are; $7/hr or working for Bob Packwood are certainly fraught with degradation and/or sexism. Sure there are lots of ways to screw it up like getting into coke or prostitution, but being from one of the meth capitals of the Rockies, I know that these dangers aren't limited to working at a strip club. Posted by flounder | February 14, 2008 11:03 PM Ah, but I don't say that dudes are patronizing the strip club because it's vegan, or that the vegan food is the primary draw. I'm responding to the owner's claims that this is his way of promoting veganism. Likewise, the Vegan Vixens say their goal is to get men to stop eating meat. Of course I'm aware that people go to strip clubs to look at nekkid ladies, not for the food. That doesn't mean the club owner and the Vegan Vixens aren't using women's bodies in an attempt to win a few converts to their diet. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:18 PM Oh, and also: That's why self-identified "liberal nice guys" who like vegan food aren't the intended customer. The owner is looking to draw anyone who eats meat, liberal or no. Posted by Ann | February 14, 2008 11:22 PM Peter H Sent from - a smarter inbox. Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with for Good Sent from - a smarter inbox. 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