How our vegan diet made us ill

[Guest guest]

Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their health – but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again

By Natasha MannTuesday, 17 June 2008 http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

 

 

 

One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front teeth were pitted with holes.

 

 

"I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige.

At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years, and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct was on the alert.

"I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it," says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course, children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."

There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is going on? Here is this purely fed child – why would she need to do this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."

When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."

Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book. Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my shelf for 20 years."

The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism. In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering. Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was ridiculous."

There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals, baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more, cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles, from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."

Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman.

Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our bodies from sunshine – although in the UK the sun is only strong enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.

Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet, you need to get proper professional advice."

The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media. They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however, says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies, says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself. It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support from a dietician."

Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice. "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods."

Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the same amount of iron."

Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products. "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking between meals, always obsessed by food."

Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice cakes and butter.

The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese."

Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."

Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."

And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'"

Nutrients that everyone needs

B12

Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements, fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to irreversible nervous system damage.

Vitamin D

Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets. Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people from cultures that require them to cover up.

Calcium

Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

Iron

Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses and leafy green vegetables.

Calories

Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in high-fibre diets.

Protein

High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, pulses and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

 

Peter vv._,___

 

Sent from Mail.

 

A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]

ok peter, i gotta know

why do you insist on posting these crazy freakin things

i could rip these posts apart in two minutes

we already know how the media and the rest of the world view us, i'm not sure we need it tossed at it here all the time

Peter VV Jun 17, 2008 10:59 AM Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their health – but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again By Natasha MannTuesday, 17 June 2008 http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

 

 

 

One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front teeth were pitted with holes.

 

 

"I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige.

At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years, and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct was on the alert.

"I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it," says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course, children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."

There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is going on? Here is this purely fed child – why would she need to do this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."

When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."

Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book. Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my shelf for 20 years."

The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism. In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering. Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was ridiculous."

There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals, baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more, cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles, from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."

Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman.

Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our bodies from sunshine – although in the UK the sun is only strong enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.

Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet, you need to get proper professional advice."

The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media. They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however, says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies, says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself. It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support from a dietician."

Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice. "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods."

Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the same amount of iron."

Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products. "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking between meals, always obsessed by food."

Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice cakes and butter.

The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese."

Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."

Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."

And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'"

Nutrients that everyone needs

B12

Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements, fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to irreversible nervous system damage.

Vitamin D

Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets. Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people from cultures that require them to cover up.

Calcium

Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

Iron

Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses and leafy green vegetables.

Calories

Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in high-fibre diets.

Protein

High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, pulses and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

 

Peter vv._,___

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

 

 

 

 

 

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

[Guest guest]

Precisely to get that kind of reaction. There is a lot of insular, apathetic vegans out there. I honestly believe there is a need to stir it up now and again.

And if you want to , why not reply to them at source, thats why I put the url`s on them...............very few vegans do actually come back with intelligent replies.

Some of us are not as educated or articulate as you, so instead of replying to me, reply to the media? for me?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Tuesday, 17 June, 2008 8:06:30 PMRe: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

ok peter, i gotta know

why do you insist on posting these crazy freakin things

i could rip these posts apart in two minutes

we already know how the media and the rest of the world view us, i'm not sure we need it tossed at it here all the time

Peter VV Jun 17, 2008 10:59 AM @gro ups.com Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their health – but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again By Natasha MannTuesday, 17 June 2008 http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and- wellbeing/ healthy-living/ how-our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html

 

 

 

One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front teeth were pitted with holes.

 

 

"I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige.

At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years, and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct was on the alert.

"I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it," says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course, children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."

There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is going on? Here is this purely fed child – why would she need to do this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."

When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."

Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book. Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my shelf for 20 years."

The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism. In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering. Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was ridiculous."

There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals, baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more, cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles, from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."

Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman.

Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our bodies from sunshine – although in the UK the sun is only strong enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.

Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet, you need to get proper professional advice."

The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media. They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however, says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies, says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself. It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support from a dietician."

Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice. "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based foods."

Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the same amount of iron."

Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products. "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking between meals, always obsessed by food."

Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice cakes and butter.

The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese."

Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."

Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."

And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'"

Nutrients that everyone needs

B12

Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements, fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to irreversible nervous system damage.

Vitamin D

Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets. Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people from cultures that require them to cover up.

Calcium

Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

Iron

Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses and leafy green vegetables.

Calories

Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in high-fibre diets.

Protein

High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

 

Peter vv._,___

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

 

Sent from Mail.

 

A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]

me? articulate?

please, i can't talk and chew gum at the same time

(granted, that's because i don't chew gum, but...)

Peter VV Jun 17, 2008 11:20 AM Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

Precisely to get that kind of reaction. There is a lot of insular, apathetic vegans out there. I honestly believe there is a need to stir it up now and again.

And if you want to , why not reply to them at source, thats why I put the url`s on them...............very few vegans do actually come back with intelligent replies.

Some of us are not as educated or articulate as you, so instead of replying to me, reply to the media? for me?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Tuesday, 17 June, 2008 8:06:30 PMRe: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

ok peter, i gotta know

why do you insist on posting these crazy freakin things

i could rip these posts apart in two minutes

we already know how the media and the rest of the world view us, i'm not sure we need it tossed at it here all the time

Peter VV Jun 17, 2008 10:59 AM @gro ups.com Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their health – but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again By Natasha MannTuesday, 17 June 2008 http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and- wellbeing/ healthy-living/ how-our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html

 

 

 

One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front teeth were pitted with holes.

 

 

"I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige.

At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years, and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct was on the alert.

"I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it," says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course, children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."

There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is going on? Here is this purely fed child – why would she need to do this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."

When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."

Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book. Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my shelf for 20 years."

The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism. In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering. Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was ridiculous."

There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals, baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more, cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles, from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."

Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman.

Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our bodies from sunshine – although in the UK the sun is only strong enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.

Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet, you need to get proper professional advice."

The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media. They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however, says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies, says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself. It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support from a dietician."

Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice. "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based foods."

Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the same amount of iron."

Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products. "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking between meals, always obsessed by food."

Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice cakes and butter.

The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese."

Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."

Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."

And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'"

Nutrients that everyone needs

B12

Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements, fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to irreversible nervous system damage.

Vitamin D

Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets. Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people from cultures that require them to cover up.

Calcium

Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

Iron

Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses and leafy green vegetables.

Calories

Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in high-fibre diets.

Protein

High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

 

Peter vv._,___

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email. “We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

 

 

 

 

 

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

[Guest guest]

The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS website veryshortly.Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' CoordinatorCottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NAe-mail: vegan (AT) phonecoop (DOT) coopFOR PUBLICATIONParent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that herchildren could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun2008http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and- wellbeing/ healthy-living/how-our- vegan-diet- made-us-ill- 848322.html) . A particular raw foodregime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.The Vegan Society is

correctly quoted as having the evidence to showthat a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -including young children. But the piece is otherwise full ofunsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the motherstates that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein - butadmits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need fora varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with veganchildren in their care to contact us for free, scientifically soundadvice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contactdetails are on our Web site, www.vegansociety. com along with a widerange of nutritional advice.The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium aredifficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.Protein needs at every stage

of life can be comfortably met by eating agood quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and otherpulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varieddiet without 'food combining' at a given meal.However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short ofprotein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat overrice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high iflarge amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens orkale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks arealso good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the dietcentres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exceptionand a useful source of calcium).But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also needplenty of potassium, and

limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D andprotein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medicalproblems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegansthat their health, and the health of their children is theirresponsibility, and that we are here to help.Yours sincerely,Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan SocietyThe Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,Birmingham, B18 6HJMobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749Email: info (AT) vegansociety (DOT) com Web: www.vegansociety. comReg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann--Media

Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737Email: media (AT) vegansociety (DOT) com - Request your FREE vegan starter packtoday!Web: www.vegansociety. com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald WatsonHouse,21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJReg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Tuesday, 17 June, 2008 8:06:30 PMRe: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

ok peter, i gotta know

why do you insist on posting these crazy freakin things

i could rip these posts apart in two minutes

we already know how the media and the rest of the world view us, i'm not sure we need it tossed at it here all the time

Peter VV Jun 17, 2008 10:59 AM @gro ups.com Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their health – but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again By Natasha MannTuesday, 17 June 2008 http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and- wellbeing/ healthy-living/ how-our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html

 

 

 

One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front teeth were pitted with holes.

 

 

"I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige.

At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years, and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct was on the alert.

"I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it," says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course, children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."

There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is going on? Here is this purely fed child – why would she need to do this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."

When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."

Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book. Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my shelf for 20 years."

The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism. In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering. Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was ridiculous."

There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals, baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more, cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles, from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."

Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman.

Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our bodies from sunshine – although in the UK the sun is only strong enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.

Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet, you need to get proper professional advice."

The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media. They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however, says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies, says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself. It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support from a dietician."

Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice. "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based foods."

Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the same amount of iron."

Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products. "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking between meals, always obsessed by food."

Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice cakes and butter.

The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese."

Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."

Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."

And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'"

Nutrients that everyone needs

B12

Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements, fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to irreversible nervous system damage.

Vitamin D

Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets. Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people from cultures that require them to cover up.

Calcium

Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

Iron

Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses and leafy green vegetables.

Calories

Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in high-fibre diets.

Protein

High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

 

Peter vv._,___

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

 

Sent from Mail.

 

A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]



The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS website veryshortly.Best wishes,PatriciaPatricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' CoordinatorCottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NAe-mail: veganFOR PUBLICATIONParent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that herchildren could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun2008http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular raw foodregime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to showthat a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -including young children. But the piece is otherwise full ofunsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the motherstates that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein - butadmits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need fora varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with veganchildren in their care to contact us for free, scientifically soundadvice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contactdetails are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a widerange of nutritional advice.The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium aredifficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by eating agood quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and otherpulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varieddiet without 'food combining' at a given meal.However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short ofprotein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat overrice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high iflarge amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens orkale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks arealso good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the dietcentres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exceptionand a useful source of calcium).But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also needplenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D andprotein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medicalproblems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegansthat their health, and the health of their children is theirresponsibility, and that we are here to help.Yours sincerely,Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan SocietyThe Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,Birmingham, B18 6HJMobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749Email: info Web: www.vegansociety.comReg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann--Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737Email: media - Request your FREE vegan starter packtoday!Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald WatsonHouse,21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJReg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95

 

 

 

-

Peter VV

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM

Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their health – but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again By Natasha MannTuesday, 17 June 2008 http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

 

 

 

One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front teeth were pitted with holes.

 

 

"I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige.

At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years, and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct was on the alert.

"I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it," says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course, children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."

There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is going on? Here is this purely fed child – why would she need to do this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."

When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."

Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book. Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my shelf for 20 years."

The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism. In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering. Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was ridiculous."

There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals, baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more, cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles, from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."

Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman.

Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our bodies from sunshine – although in the UK the sun is only strong enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.

Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet, you need to get proper professional advice."

The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media. They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however, says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies, says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself. It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support from a dietician."

Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice. "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods."

Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the same amount of iron."

Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products. "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking between meals, always obsessed by food."

Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice cakes and butter.

The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese."

Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."

Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."

And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'"

Nutrients that everyone needs

B12

Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements, fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to irreversible nervous system damage.

Vitamin D

Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets. Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people from cultures that require them to cover up.

Calcium

Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

Iron

Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses and leafy green vegetables.

Calories

Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in high-fibre diets.

Protein

High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, pulses and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

 

Peter vv._,___

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]

I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy

debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a chance

to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public forum.

 

Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be

honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to

raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the effects

Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his

diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron isn't

an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get rid

of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a

rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate

more on him having a well rounded complete diet.

 

In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not critisising

a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The

amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems from

a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go wrong.

No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will

suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating

meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that we

have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, and

everyone should do that.

 

Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism

because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also

opens up the channels for more information about good vegan

nutrition...as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it all!

 

Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!

 

Ange

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS

website very

> shortly.

> Best wishes,

> Patricia

>

> Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' Coordinator

> Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA

> e-mail: vegan

>

>

> FOR PUBLICATION

>

> Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that her

> children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun

> 2008

> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/healthy-liv

> ing/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular raw food

> regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.

>

> The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to show

> that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -

> including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of

> unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother

> states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein - but

> admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.

>

> The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need for

> a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan

> children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically sound

> advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contact

> details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a wide

> range of nutritional advice.

>

> The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium are

> difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.

>

> Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by eating a

> good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other

> pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varied

> diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.

>

> However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short of

> protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat over

> rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.

>

> Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high if

> large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens or

> kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks are

> also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet

> centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exception

> and a useful source of calcium).

>

> But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also need

> plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D and

> protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.

>

> Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical

> problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegans

> that their health, and the health of their children is their

> responsibility, and that we are here to help.

>

> Yours sincerely,

>

> Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society

>

> The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,

> Birmingham, B18 6HJ

> Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749

> Email: info Web: www.vegansociety.com

> Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95

>

> CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann

>

> --

> Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737

> Email: media - Request your FREE vegan starter pack

> today!

> Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald Watson

> House,

> 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ

> Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95

>

>

>

>

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM

> Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

>

>

>

> Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their

health †" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again

> By Natasha Mann

> Tuesday, 17 June 2008

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/healthy-living/how-\

our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

>

> One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter

and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been

flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her

age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and

swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front

teeth were pitted with holes.

>

> " I was absolutely horrified, " recalls Paige.

>

> At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most

nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,

and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and

pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food

doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should

have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct

was on the alert.

>

> " I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it, "

says Paige, 45. " They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,

children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth

seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their

development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against. "

>

> There were other oddities: " I remember going to the supermarket

and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had

butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it, " says

Paige. " It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is

going on? Here is this purely fed child †" why would she need to do

this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you. "

>

> When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't

seem too concerned. " She said they were in the low percentile, but

thought they were OK, " says Paige. " Yet I knew the children weren't

growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong. "

>

> Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book.

Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had

symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. " I felt like such an

idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my

shelf for 20 years. "

>

> The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.

In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have

a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that

included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.

Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes

butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. " I had let malnutrition in

through the back door in the name of health, " says Paige. " It was

ridiculous. "

>

> There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating

cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,

baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,

cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,

from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: " The most dramatic change

to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you

are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein. "

>

> Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a

12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with

rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman.

>

> Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to

curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of

vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our

bodies from sunshine †" although in the UK the sun is only strong

enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you

might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.

>

> Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan

child. " You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you

are doing, especially in regards to weight, " says Jackie Lowdon from

the British Dietician Association. " As with any self-restricting diet,

you need to get proper professional advice. "

>

> The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable

for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults

brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.

They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan

children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,

says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

>

> Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,

says: " It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but

with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself.

It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support

from a dietician. "

>

> Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children

more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn

their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.

" With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have

higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime

has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods. "

>

> Care must be taken with certain nutrients. " Haem iron, found in

meat, is easier for the body to absorb, " explains Denby. " Non-haem

iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and

fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the

same amount of iron. "

>

> Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products.

" It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and

content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood

sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking

between meals, always obsessed by food. "

>

> Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and

Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: " It

was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly

fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half

nine. " She would also have " mad " binges, and eat nothing but rice

cakes and butter.

>

> The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He

asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After

that, she couldn't stop. " I just went wild. Typically, in a day I

would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese

and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The

children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese. "

>

> Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her

biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. " For a lot of

people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal

form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a

lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet. "

>

> Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she

is certain they are thriving. " There was a moment when I was worried

damage had been done for life, " she says. " Now, I'm confident they are

doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as

before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay. "

>

> And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. " The

first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?' "

>

> Nutrients that everyone needs

>

> B12

>

> Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and

eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,

fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to

irreversible nervous system damage.

>

> Vitamin D

>

> Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet

rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable

weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial

for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.

Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it

from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in

Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people

from cultures that require them to cover up.

>

> Calcium

>

> Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is

often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

>

> Iron

>

> Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become

anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is

commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses

and leafy green vegetables.

>

> Calories

>

> Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories

can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in

high-fibre diets.

>

> Protein

>

> High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and

dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, pulses

and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the

essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of

which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

>

>

>

>

> Peter vv._,___

>

>

>

 

> Sent from Mail.

> A Smarter Email.

>

[Guest guest]

The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too.

The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than

Britain.

 

There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this

was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has

been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not

the case.

 

Jo

 

, " angel.nail " <angel.nail

wrote:

>

> I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy

> debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a

chance

> to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public

forum.

>

> Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be

> honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to

> raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the

effects

> Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his

> diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron

isn't

> an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get

rid

> of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a

> rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate

> more on him having a well rounded complete diet.

>

> In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not

critisising

> a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The

> amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems

from

> a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go

wrong.

> No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will

> suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating

> meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that

we

> have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details,

and

> everyone should do that.

>

> Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism

> because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also

> opens up the channels for more information about good vegan

> nutrition...as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it

all!

>

> Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!

>

> Ange

>

> , " jo " <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> >

> > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS

> website very

> > shortly.

> > Best wishes,

> > Patricia

> >

> > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts'

Coordinator

> > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA

> > e-mail: vegan@

> >

> >

> > FOR PUBLICATION

> >

> > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that

her

> > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17

Jun

> > 2008

> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-

wellbeing/healthy-liv

> > ing/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular

raw food

> > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.

> >

> > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to

show

> > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all

ages -

> > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of

> > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother

> > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -

but

> > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.

> >

> > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the

need for

> > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan

> > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically

sound

> > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our

contact

> > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a

wide

> > range of nutritional advice.

> >

> > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and

calcium are

> > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.

> >

> > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by

eating a

> > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other

> > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a

varied

> > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.

> >

> > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short

of

> > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils,

wheat over

> > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.

> >

> > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very

high if

> > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring

greens or

> > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant

milks are

> > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet

> > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an

exception

> > and a useful source of calcium).

> >

> > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also

need

> > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough

vitamin D and

> > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.

> >

> > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical

> > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all

vegans

> > that their health, and the health of their children is their

> > responsibility, and that we are here to help.

> >

> > Yours sincerely,

> >

> > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society

> >

> > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,

> > Birmingham, B18 6HJ

> > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749

> > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety.com

> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448

5973 95

> >

> > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann

> >

> > --

> > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737

> > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack

> > today!

> > Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald

Watson

> > House,

> > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ

> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448

5973 95

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> > Peter VV

> >

> > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM

> > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

> >

> >

> >

> > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their

> health †" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think

again

> > By Natasha Mann

> > Tuesday, 17 June 2008

> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-

wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

> >

> > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter

> and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been

> flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her

> age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big

and

> swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front

> teeth were pitted with holes.

> >

> > " I was absolutely horrified, " recalls Paige.

> >

> > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the

most

> nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,

> and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and

> pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food

> doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should

> have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct

> was on the alert.

> >

> > " I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it, "

> says Paige, 45. " They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,

> children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth

> seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had

their

> development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against. "

> >

> > There were other oddities: " I remember going to the supermarket

> and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had

> butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it, " says

> Paige. " It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is

> going on? Here is this purely fed child †" why would she need to do

> this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad

for you. "

> >

> > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she

didn't

> seem too concerned. " She said they were in the low percentile, but

> thought they were OK, " says Paige. " Yet I knew the children weren't

> growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt

wrong. "

> >

> > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin

book.

> Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family

had

> symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. " I felt like such an

> idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on

my

> shelf for 20 years. "

> >

> > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.

> In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who

have

> a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement

that

> included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.

> Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes

> butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. " I had let malnutrition

in

> through the back door in the name of health, " says Paige. " It was

> ridiculous. "

> >

> > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and

eating

> cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,

> baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,

> cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,

> from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: " The most dramatic

change

> to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you

> are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and

protein. "

> >

> > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a

> 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with

> rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old

woman.

> >

> > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to

> curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of

> vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our

> bodies from sunshine †" although in the UK the sun is only strong

> enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you

> might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny

Tim.

> >

> > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy

vegan

> child. " You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what

you

> are doing, especially in regards to weight, " says Jackie Lowdon from

> the British Dietician Association. " As with any self-restricting

diet,

> you need to get proper professional advice. "

> >

> > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is

suitable

> for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy

adults

> brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.

> They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan

> children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,

> says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

> >

> > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,

> says: " It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily,

but

> with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for

yourself.

> It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support

> from a dietician. "

> >

> > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small

children

> more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn

> their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.

> " With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have

> higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime

> has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods. "

> >

> > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. " Haem iron, found in

> meat, is easier for the body to absorb, " explains Denby. " Non-haem

> iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and

> fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the

> same amount of iron. "

> >

> > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy

products.

> " It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and

> content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have

childhood

> sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always

picking

> between meals, always obsessed by food. "

> >

> > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and

> Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: " It

> was the third year when my body started disintegrating,

frighteningly

> fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at

half

> nine. " She would also have " mad " binges, and eat nothing but rice

> cakes and butter.

> >

> > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay.

He

> asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it.

After

> that, she couldn't stop. " I just went wild. Typically, in a day I

> would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese

> and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The

> children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese. "

> >

> > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says

her

> biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. " For a lot of

> people, there is something about these various nutrients in the

animal

> form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows

a

> lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet. "

> >

> > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight

she

> is certain they are thriving. " There was a moment when I was worried

> damage had been done for life, " she says. " Now, I'm confident they

are

> doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as

> before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay. "

> >

> > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking

point. " The

> first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they

grown?' "

> >

> > Nutrients that everyone needs

> >

> > B12

> >

> > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and

> eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,

> fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to

> irreversible nervous system damage.

> >

> > Vitamin D

> >

> > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet

> rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable

> weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is

crucial

> for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.

> Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain

it

> from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in

> Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people

> from cultures that require them to cover up.

> >

> > Calcium

> >

> > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It

is

> often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

> >

> > Iron

> >

> > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become

> anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is

> commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses

> and leafy green vegetables.

> >

> > Calories

> >

> > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough

calories

> can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in

> high-fibre diets.

> >

> > Protein

> >

> > High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and

> dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts,

pulses

> and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the

> essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of

> which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Peter vv._,___

> >

> >

> >

> --

----------

> > Sent from Mail.

> > A Smarter Email.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've had to stop being vegan for a few weeks, i got really ill and lost feelings in my legs. However, i really want to go back, any health advice? Kelly--- On Thu, 19/6/08, heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

heartwerk <jo.heartwork Re: How our vegan diet made us ill Date: Thursday, 19 June, 2008, 7:38 AM

 

 

The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than Britain.There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not the case.Jo@gro ups.com, "angel.nail" <angel.nail@ ...> wrote:>> I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a chance> to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public forum. > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> honest i don't feel like i have the right information and

skills to> raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the effects> Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron isn't> an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get rid> of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not critisising> a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems from> a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go wrong.> No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> suffer. I

think that people just assume that because they are eating> meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that we> have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, and> everyone should do that.> > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> nutrition... as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it all!> > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > Ange > > @gro ups.com, "jo" <jo.heartwork@ > wrote:> >> > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> website very> > shortly.> >

Best wishes,> > Patricia> > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' Coordinator> > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that her> > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun> > 2008> > http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- liv> > ing/how-our- vegan-diet- made-us-ill- 848322.html) . A particular raw food> > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to show> > that a balanced

vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -> > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -but> > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need for> > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically sound> > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contact> > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety. com along with a wide> > range of nutritional advice.> > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium are>

> difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by eating a> > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varied> > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short of> > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat over> > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high if> > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens or> > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks are> > also good

sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exception> > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also need> > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D and> > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegans> > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society> > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21

Hylton St, Hockley,> > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety. com> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95> > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > --> > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > today!> > Web: www.vegansociety. com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald Watson> > House,> > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > - > > Peter VV > > @gro ups.com > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again > > By Natasha Mann> > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- living/how- our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html> > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her>

age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and> swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most> nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> was on the alert. > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> children come in all different

shapes and sizes, but their growth> seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their> development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."> > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't> seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> growing. I could sense that there was something

wrong. It felt wrong."> > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book.> Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had> symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my> shelf for 20 years."> > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have> a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that> included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in> through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was>

ridiculous." > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating> cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change> to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."> > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman. > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It

is caused by a lack of> vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.> > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan> child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you> are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet,> you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable> for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults> brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to

talk to the media.> They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but> with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself.> It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> from a dietician."> > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children> more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> higher nutrient requirements than adults.

Therefore, every mealtime> has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based foods." > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> same amount of iron."> > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products.> "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood> sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking> between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> Bertie, but the toll of veganism on

her own health was dramatic: "It> was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly> fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half> nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> cakes and butter.> > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He> asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After> that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her> biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> people, there is

something about these various nutrients in the animal> form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a> lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she> is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are> doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The> first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'" > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > B12> > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and>

eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > Vitamin D> > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial> for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it> from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > Calcium> > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is>

often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > Iron> > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> and leafy green vegetables.> > > > Calories> > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories> can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> high-fibre diets.> > > > Protein> > > > High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses> and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> which foods to

mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----------> > Sent from Mail. > > A Smarter Email.> >>

 

Sent from Mail.

 

A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]

jo:

 

saying that " oriential men's diet has been based on soy for a long time " is

pretty broad and, i believe, incorrect. we'd like to think this way, and it's a

great argument for us, but i don't think the stats support it because 1).

" oriental " is way too broad to really determine just who we're talking about,

and 2). the folks we consider " oriental " (indians, chinese, tibetans,

mongolians, indonesians, not to mention japanese, korean, etc) eat all kinds of

meats, dairy (esp indians), and so forth.

 

so, pointing to asians and saying " they live long because they eat mostly tofu

and little meat " is really very misleading, in my opinion. the second biggest

group of asians, indians (one fifth of the world's population, and probably half

of all asians), don't eat it at all to my understanding.

 

blake

 

 

---- heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too.

> The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than

> Britain.

>

> There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this

> was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has

> been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not

> the case.

>

> Jo

>

> , " angel.nail " <angel.nail

> wrote:

> >

> > I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy

> > debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a

> chance

> > to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public

> forum.

> >

> > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be

> > honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to

> > raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the

> effects

> > Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his

> > diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron

> isn't

> > an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get

> rid

> > of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a

> > rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate

> > more on him having a well rounded complete diet.

> >

> > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not

> critisising

> > a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The

> > amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems

> from

> > a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go

> wrong.

> > No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will

> > suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating

> > meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that

> we

> > have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details,

> and

> > everyone should do that.

> >

> > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism

> > because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also

> > opens up the channels for more information about good vegan

> > nutrition...as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it

> all!

> >

> > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!

> >

> > Ange

> >

> > , " jo " <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> > >

> > > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS

> > website very

> > > shortly.

> > > Best wishes,

> > > Patricia

> > >

> > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts'

> Coordinator

> > > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA

> > > e-mail: vegan@

> > >

> > >

> > > FOR PUBLICATION

> > >

> > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that

> her

> > > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17

> Jun

> > > 2008

> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-

> wellbeing/healthy-liv

> > > ing/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular

> raw food

> > > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.

> > >

> > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to

> show

> > > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all

> ages -

> > > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of

> > > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother

> > > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -

> but

> > > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.

> > >

> > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the

> need for

> > > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan

> > > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically

> sound

> > > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our

> contact

> > > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a

> wide

> > > range of nutritional advice.

> > >

> > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and

> calcium are

> > > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.

> > >

> > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by

> eating a

> > > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other

> > > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a

> varied

> > > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.

> > >

> > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short

> of

> > > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils,

> wheat over

> > > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.

> > >

> > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very

> high if

> > > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring

> greens or

> > > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant

> milks are

> > > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet

> > > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an

> exception

> > > and a useful source of calcium).

> > >

> > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also

> need

> > > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough

> vitamin D and

> > > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.

> > >

> > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical

> > > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all

> vegans

> > > that their health, and the health of their children is their

> > > responsibility, and that we are here to help.

> > >

> > > Yours sincerely,

> > >

> > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society

> > >

> > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,

> > > Birmingham, B18 6HJ

> > > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749

> > > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety.com

> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448

> 5973 95

> > >

> > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann

> > >

> > > --

> > > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737

> > > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack

> > > today!

> > > Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald

> Watson

> > > House,

> > > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ

> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448

> 5973 95

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > -

> > > Peter VV

> > >

> > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM

> > > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their

> > health †" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think

> again

> > > By Natasha Mann

> > > Tuesday, 17 June 2008

> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-

> wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

> > >

> > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter

> > and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been

> > flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her

> > age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big

> and

> > swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front

> > teeth were pitted with holes.

> > >

> > > " I was absolutely horrified, " recalls Paige.

> > >

> > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the

> most

> > nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,

> > and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and

> > pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food

> > doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should

> > have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct

> > was on the alert.

> > >

> > > " I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it, "

> > says Paige, 45. " They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,

> > children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth

> > seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had

> their

> > development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against. "

> > >

> > > There were other oddities: " I remember going to the supermarket

> > and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had

> > butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it, " says

> > Paige. " It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is

> > going on? Here is this purely fed child †" why would she need to do

> > this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad

> for you. "

> > >

> > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she

> didn't

> > seem too concerned. " She said they were in the low percentile, but

> > thought they were OK, " says Paige. " Yet I knew the children weren't

> > growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt

> wrong. "

> > >

> > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin

> book.

> > Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family

> had

> > symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. " I felt like such an

> > idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on

> my

> > shelf for 20 years. "

> > >

> > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.

> > In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who

> have

> > a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement

> that

> > included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.

> > Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes

> > butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. " I had let malnutrition

> in

> > through the back door in the name of health, " says Paige. " It was

> > ridiculous. "

> > >

> > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and

> eating

> > cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,

> > baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,

> > cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,

> > from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: " The most dramatic

> change

> > to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you

> > are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and

> protein. "

> > >

> > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a

> > 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with

> > rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old

> woman.

> > >

> > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to

> > curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of

> > vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our

> > bodies from sunshine †" although in the UK the sun is only strong

> > enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you

> > might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny

> Tim.

> > >

> > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy

> vegan

> > child. " You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what

> you

> > are doing, especially in regards to weight, " says Jackie Lowdon from

> > the British Dietician Association. " As with any self-restricting

> diet,

> > you need to get proper professional advice. "

> > >

> > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is

> suitable

> > for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy

> adults

> > brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.

> > They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan

> > children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,

> > says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children.

> > >

> > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,

> > says: " It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily,

> but

> > with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for

> yourself.

> > It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support

> > from a dietician. "

> > >

> > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small

> children

> > more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn

> > their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.

> > " With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have

> > higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime

> > has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods. "

> > >

> > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. " Haem iron, found in

> > meat, is easier for the body to absorb, " explains Denby. " Non-haem

> > iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and

> > fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the

> > same amount of iron. "

> > >

> > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy

> products.

> > " It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and

> > content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have

> childhood

> > sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always

> picking

> > between meals, always obsessed by food. "

> > >

> > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and

> > Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: " It

> > was the third year when my body started disintegrating,

> frighteningly

> > fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at

> half

> > nine. " She would also have " mad " binges, and eat nothing but rice

> > cakes and butter.

> > >

> > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay.

> He

> > asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it.

> After

> > that, she couldn't stop. " I just went wild. Typically, in a day I

> > would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese

> > and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The

> > children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese. "

> > >

> > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says

> her

> > biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. " For a lot of

> > people, there is something about these various nutrients in the

> animal

> > form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows

> a

> > lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet. "

> > >

> > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight

> she

> > is certain they are thriving. " There was a moment when I was worried

> > damage had been done for life, " she says. " Now, I'm confident they

> are

> > doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as

> > before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay. "

> > >

> > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking

> point. " The

> > first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they

> grown?' "

> > >

> > > Nutrients that everyone needs

> > >

> > > B12

> > >

> > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and

> > eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,

> > fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to

> > irreversible nervous system damage.

> > >

> > > Vitamin D

> > >

> > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet

> > rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable

> > weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is

> crucial

> > for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.

> > Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain

> it

> > from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in

> > Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people

> > from cultures that require them to cover up.

> > >

> > > Calcium

> > >

> > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It

> is

> > often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

> > >

> > > Iron

> > >

> > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become

> > anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is

> > commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses

> > and leafy green vegetables.

> > >

> > > Calories

> > >

> > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough

> calories

> > can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in

> > high-fibre diets.

> > >

> > > Protein

> > >

> > > High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and

> > dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts,

> pulses

> > and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the

> > essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of

> > which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Peter vv._,___

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > --

> ----------

> > > Sent from Mail.

> > > A Smarter Email.

> > >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

hey there blake

a coupe things...

"oriental" and "the orient" doesn't quite mean the same thing in the UK as it does in the US. heck, we rarely even use the term over here anymore as i think ya know, as it's fallen out of fashion and is considered more of a slur. In the UK, the Orient is the "far east". China and Japan more er less. AFAIK.

Indians and that region are "asians" in the UK (i guess you would align it with british held regions)

Correct me if i'm worng folks over in UKland.

but, when jo said Orient, i beleive she was just referring to what is today eastern china, japan, and the like.

anywho...in that regard, yes soy has been a mainstay of the regional diet, for thousands of years. According to my "history of food" book, which is dang old and out of date, but chock full of information, soy use in China goes back at least 5000 yrs, when there is written mention of it. Soy has been used as a protein source in that part of the world for generations.

the use of meat, while it has always been there of course, is a much more recent phenomenon. before, you had to be pretty well off to have lotsa meat in yer diet. (pretty much the case actually for most regions of the world until historically quite recently). Sure, ppl ate fish, and raised fowl, and pigs and what have you, but, historically, soy and related items played a much larger role in the local diet.

the current uses of meat and the like, is a much more recent phenomenon, as "western" culture and diet have spread around the world, and modern agricutural techniques (fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, anti-biotics, factory farms and of course oil) have allowed large numbers of animals to be used, killed and eaten..

mbw Jun 19, 2008 7:33 AM Cc: heartwerk Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

jo:saying that "oriential men's diet has been based on soy for a long time" is pretty broad and, i believe, incorrect. we'd like to think this way, and it's a great argument for us, but i don't think the stats support it because 1). "oriental" is way too broad to really determine just who we're talking about, and 2). the folks we consider "oriental" (indians, chinese, tibetans, mongolians, indonesians, not to mention japanese, korean, etc) eat all kinds of meats, dairy (esp indians), and so forth. so, pointing to asians and saying "they live long because they eat mostly tofu and little meat" is really very misleading, in my opinion. the second biggest group of asians, indians (one fifth of the world's population, and probably half of all asians), don't eat it at all to my understanding. blake ---- heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: > The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. > The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than > Britain.> > There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this > was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has > been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not > the case.> > Jo> > , "angel.nail" <angel.nail > wrote:> >> > I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> > debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a > chance> > to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public > forum. > > > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> > honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to> > raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the > effects> > Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> > diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron > isn't> > an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get > rid> > of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> > rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> > more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > > > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not > critisising> > a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> > amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems > from> > a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go > wrong.> > No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> > suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> > meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that > we> > have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, > and> > everyone should do that.> > > > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> > because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> > opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> > nutrition...as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it > all!> > > > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > > > Ange > > > > , "jo" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > >> > > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> > website very> > > shortly.> > > Best wishes,> > > Patricia> > > > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' > Coordinator> > > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that > her> > > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 > Jun> > > 2008> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-liv> > > ing/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular > raw food> > > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to > show> > > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all > ages -> > > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -> but> > > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the > need for> > > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically > sound> > > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our > contact> > > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a > wide> > > range of nutritional advice.> > > > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and > calcium are> > > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by > eating a> > > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a > varied> > > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short > of> > > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, > wheat over> > > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very > high if> > > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring > greens or> > > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant > milks are> > > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an > exception> > > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also > need> > > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough > vitamin D and> > > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all > vegans> > > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society> > > > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety.com> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95> > > > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > > > --> > > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > > today!> > > Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald > Watson> > > House,> > > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Peter VV > > > > > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> > health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think > again > > > By Natasha Mann> > > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html> > > > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> > and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> > flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her> > age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big > and> > swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> > teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the > most> > nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> > and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> > pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> > doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> > have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> > was on the alert. > > > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> > says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> > children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth> > seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had > their> > development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> > and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> > butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> > Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> > going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> > this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad > for you."> > > > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she > didn't> > seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> > thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> > growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt > wrong."> > > > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin > book.> > Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family > had> > symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> > idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on > my> > shelf for 20 years."> > > > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> > In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who > have> > a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement > that> > included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> > Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> > butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition > in> > through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> > ridiculous." > > > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and > eating> > cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> > baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> > cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> > from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic > change> > to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> > are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and > protein."> > > > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> > 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> > rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old > woman. > > > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> > curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> > vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> > bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> > enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> > might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny > Tim.> > > > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy > vegan> > child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what > you> > are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> > the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting > diet,> > you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is > suitable> > for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy > adults> > brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> > They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> > children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> > says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> > says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, > but> > with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for > yourself.> > It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> > from a dietician."> > > > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small > children> > more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> > their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> > "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> > higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> > has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods." > > > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> > meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> > iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> > fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> > same amount of iron."> > > > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy > products.> > "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> > content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have > childhood> > sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always > picking> > between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> > Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> > was the third year when my body started disintegrating, > frighteningly> > fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at > half> > nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> > cakes and butter.> > > > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. > He> > asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. > After> > that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> > would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> > and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> > children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says > her> > biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> > people, there is something about these various nutrients in the > animal> > form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows > a> > lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight > she> > is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> > damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they > are> > doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> > before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking > point. "The> > first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they > grown?'" > > > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > > > B12> > > > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> > eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> > fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> > irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > > > Vitamin D> > > > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> > rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> > weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is > crucial> > for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> > Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain > it> > from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> > Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> > from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > > > Calcium> > > > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It > is> > often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > > > Iron> > > > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> > anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> > commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> > and leafy green vegetables.> > > > > > Calories> > > > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough > calories> > can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> > high-fibre diets.> > > > > > Protein> > > > > > High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> > dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, > pulses> > and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> > essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> > which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > > > > >> > -------------------------> ----------> > > Sent from Mail. > > > A Smarter Email.> > >> >> >

 

 

 

 

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

[Guest guest]

what was your diet like? what were you eating? what was your diet like before you went vegan?

KELLY WILLIAMS Jun 19, 2008 6:00 AM Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've had to stop being vegan for a few weeks, i got really ill and lost feelings in my legs. However, i really want to go back, any health advice? Kelly--- On Thu, 19/6/08, heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

heartwerk <jo.heartwork > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill Date: Thursday, 19 June, 2008, 7:38 AM

 

 

The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than Britain.There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not the case.Jo@gro ups.com, "angel.nail" <angel.nail@ ...> wrote:>> I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a chance> to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public forum. > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to> raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the effects> Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron isn't> an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get rid> of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not critisising> a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems from> a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go wrong.> No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that we> have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, and> everyone should do that.> > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> nutrition... as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it all!> > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > Ange > > @gro ups.com, "jo" <jo.heartwork@ > wrote:> >> > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> website very> > shortly.> > Best wishes,> > Patricia> > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' Coordinator> > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that her> > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun> > 2008> > http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- liv> > ing/how-our- vegan-diet- made-us-ill- 848322.html) . A particular raw food> > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to show> > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -> > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -but> > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need for> > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically sound> > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contact> > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety. com along with a wide> > range of nutritional advice.> > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium are> > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by eating a> > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varied> > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short of> > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat over> > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high if> > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens or> > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks are> > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exception> > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also need> > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D and> > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegans> > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society> > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety. com> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95> > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > --> > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > today!> > Web: www.vegansociety. com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald Watson> > House,> > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > - > > Peter VV > > @gro ups.com > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again > > By Natasha Mann> > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- living/how- our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html> > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her> age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and> swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most> nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> was on the alert. > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth> seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their> development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."> > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't> seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."> > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book.> Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had> symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my> shelf for 20 years."> > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have> a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that> included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in> through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> ridiculous." > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating> cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change> to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."> > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman. > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.> > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan> child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you> are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet,> you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable> for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults> brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but> with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself.> It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> from a dietician."> > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children> more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based foods." > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> same amount of iron."> > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products.> "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood> sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking> between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly> fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half> nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> cakes and butter.> > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He> asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After> that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her> biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal> form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a> lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she> is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are> doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The> first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'" > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > B12> > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > Vitamin D> > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial> for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it> from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > Calcium> > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is> often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > Iron> > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> and leafy green vegetables.> > > > Calories> > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories> can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> high-fibre diets.> > > > Protein> > > > High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses> and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----------> > Sent from Mail. > > A Smarter Email.> >>

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

 

 

 

 

 

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

[Guest guest]



I didn't say it makes people live long - I said it was okay for boys to eat - but if you want to think otherwise - feel free.

Jo

 

 

-

mbw

Cc: heartwerk

Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:33 PM

Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

jo:saying that "oriential men's diet has been based on soy for a long time" is pretty broad and, i believe, incorrect. we'd like to think this way, and it's a great argument for us, but i don't think the stats support it because 1). "oriental" is way too broad to really determine just who we're talking about, and 2). the folks we consider "oriental" (indians, chinese, tibetans, mongolians, indonesians, not to mention japanese, korean, etc) eat all kinds of meats, dairy (esp indians), and so forth. so, pointing to asians and saying "they live long because they eat mostly tofu and little meat" is really very misleading, in my opinion. the second biggest group of asians, indians (one fifth of the world's population, and probably half of all asians), don't eat it at all to my understanding. blake ---- heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: > The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. > The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than > Britain.> > There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this > was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has > been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not > the case.> > Jo> > , "angel.nail" <angel.nail > wrote:> >> > I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> > debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a > chance> > to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public > forum. > > > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> > honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to> > raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the > effects> > Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> > diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron > isn't> > an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get > rid> > of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> > rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> > more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > > > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not > critisising> > a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> > amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems > from> > a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go > wrong.> > No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> > suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> > meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that > we> > have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, > and> > everyone should do that.> > > > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> > because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> > opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> > nutrition...as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it > all!> > > > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > > > Ange > > > > , "jo" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > >> > > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> > website very> > > shortly.> > > Best wishes,> > > Patricia> > > > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' > Coordinator> > > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that > her> > > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 > Jun> > > 2008> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-liv> > > ing/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular > raw food> > > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to > show> > > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all > ages -> > > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -> but> > > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the > need for> > > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically > sound> > > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our > contact> > > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a > wide> > > range of nutritional advice.> > > > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and > calcium are> > > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by > eating a> > > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a > varied> > > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short > of> > > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, > wheat over> > > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very > high if> > > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring > greens or> > > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant > milks are> > > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an > exception> > > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also > need> > > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough > vitamin D and> > > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all > vegans> > > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society> > > > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety.com> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95> > > > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > > > --> > > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > > today!> > > Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald > Watson> > > House,> > > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Peter VV > > > > > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> > health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think > again > > > By Natasha Mann> > > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html> > > > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> > and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> > flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her> > age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big > and> > swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> > teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the > most> > nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> > and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> > pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> > doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> > have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> > was on the alert. > > > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> > says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> > children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth> > seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had > their> > development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> > and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> > butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> > Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> > going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> > this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad > for you."> > > > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she > didn't> > seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> > thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> > growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt > wrong."> > > > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin > book.> > Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family > had> > symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> > idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on > my> > shelf for 20 years."> > > > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> > In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who > have> > a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement > that> > included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> > Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> > butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition > in> > through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> > ridiculous." > > > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and > eating> > cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> > baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> > cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> > from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic > change> > to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> > are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and > protein."> > > > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> > 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> > rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old > woman. > > > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> > curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> > vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> > bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> > enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> > might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny > Tim.> > > > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy > vegan> > child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what > you> > are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> > the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting > diet,> > you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is > suitable> > for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy > adults> > brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> > They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> > children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> > says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> > says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, > but> > with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for > yourself.> > It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> > from a dietician."> > > > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small > children> > more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> > their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> > "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> > higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> > has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods." > > > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> > meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> > iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> > fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> > same amount of iron."> > > > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy > products.> > "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> > content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have > childhood> > sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always > picking> > between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> > Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> > was the third year when my body started disintegrating, > frighteningly> > fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at > half> > nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> > cakes and butter.> > > > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. > He> > asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. > After> > that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> > would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> > and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> > children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says > her> > biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> > people, there is something about these various nutrients in the > animal> > form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows > a> > lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight > she> > is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> > damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they > are> > doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> > before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking > point. "The> > first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they > grown?'" > > > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > > > B12> > > > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> > eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> > fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> > irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > > > Vitamin D> > > > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> > rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> > weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is > crucial> > for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> > Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain > it> > from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> > Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> > from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > > > Calcium> > > > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It > is> > often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > > > Iron> > > > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> > anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> > commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> > and leafy green vegetables.> > > > > > Calories> > > > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough > calories> > can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> > high-fibre diets.> > > > > > Protein> > > > > > High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> > dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, > pulses> > and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> > essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> > which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > > > > >> > -------------------------> ----------> > > Sent from Mail. > > > A Smarter Email.> > >> >> >

[Guest guest]



What you say is right Fraggle - thanks.

 

Jo

 

 

-

fraggle

Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:04 PM

Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

hey there blake

a coupe things...

"oriental" and "the orient" doesn't quite mean the same thing in the UK as it does in the US. heck, we rarely even use the term over here anymore as i think ya know, as it's fallen out of fashion and is considered more of a slur. In the UK, the Orient is the "far east". China and Japan more er less. AFAIK.

Indians and that region are "asians" in the UK (i guess you would align it with british held regions)

Correct me if i'm worng folks over in UKland.

but, when jo said Orient, i beleive she was just referring to what is today eastern china, japan, and the like.

anywho...in that regard, yes soy has been a mainstay of the regional diet, for thousands of years. According to my "history of food" book, which is dang old and out of date, but chock full of information, soy use in China goes back at least 5000 yrs, when there is written mention of it. Soy has been used as a protein source in that part of the world for generations.

the use of meat, while it has always been there of course, is a much more recent phenomenon. before, you had to be pretty well off to have lotsa meat in yer diet. (pretty much the case actually for most regions of the world until historically quite recently). Sure, ppl ate fish, and raised fowl, and pigs and what have you, but, historically, soy and related items played a much larger role in the local diet.

the current uses of meat and the like, is a much more recent phenomenon, as "western" culture and diet have spread around the world, and modern agricutural techniques (fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, anti-biotics, factory farms and of course oil) have allowed large numbers of animals to be used, killed and eaten..

mbw Jun 19, 2008 7:33 AM Cc: heartwerk Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

jo:saying that "oriential men's diet has been based on soy for a long time" is pretty broad and, i believe, incorrect. we'd like to think this way, and it's a great argument for us, but i don't think the stats support it because 1). "oriental" is way too broad to really determine just who we're talking about, and 2). the folks we consider "oriental" (indians, chinese, tibetans, mongolians, indonesians, not to mention japanese, korean, etc) eat all kinds of meats, dairy (esp indians), and so forth. so, pointing to asians and saying "they live long because they eat mostly tofu and little meat" is really very misleading, in my opinion. the second biggest group of asians, indians (one fifth of the world's population, and probably half of all asians), don't eat it at all to my understanding. blake ---- heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: > The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. > The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than > Britain.> > There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this > was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has > been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not > the case.> > Jo> > , "angel.nail" <angel.nail > wrote:> >> > I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> > debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a > chance> > to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public > forum. > > > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> > honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to> > raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the > effects> > Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> > diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron > isn't> > an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get > rid> > of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> > rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> > more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > > > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not > critisising> > a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> > amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems > from> > a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go > wrong.> > No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> > suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> > meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that > we> > have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, > and> > everyone should do that.> > > > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> > because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> > opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> > nutrition...as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it > all!> > > > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > > > Ange > > > > , "jo" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > >> > > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> > website very> > > shortly.> > > Best wishes,> > > Patricia> > > > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' > Coordinator> > > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that > her> > > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 > Jun> > > 2008> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-liv> > > ing/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular > raw food> > > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to > show> > > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all > ages -> > > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -> but> > > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the > need for> > > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically > sound> > > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our > contact> > > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a > wide> > > range of nutritional advice.> > > > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and > calcium are> > > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by > eating a> > > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a > varied> > > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short > of> > > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, > wheat over> > > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very > high if> > > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring > greens or> > > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant > milks are> > > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an > exception> > > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also > need> > > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough > vitamin D and> > > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all > vegans> > > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society> > > > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety.com> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95> > > > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > > > --> > > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > > today!> > > Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald > Watson> > > House,> > > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Peter VV > > > > > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> > health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think > again > > > By Natasha Mann> > > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html> > > > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> > and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> > flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her> > age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big > and> > swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> > teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the > most> > nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> > and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> > pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> > doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> > have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> > was on the alert. > > > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> > says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> > children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth> > seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had > their> > development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> > and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> > butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> > Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> > going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> > this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad > for you."> > > > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she > didn't> > seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> > thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> > growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt > wrong."> > > > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin > book.> > Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family > had> > symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> > idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on > my> > shelf for 20 years."> > > > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> > In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who > have> > a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement > that> > included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> > Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> > butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition > in> > through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> > ridiculous." > > > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and > eating> > cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> > baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> > cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> > from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic > change> > to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> > are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and > protein."> > > > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> > 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> > rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old > woman. > > > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> > curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> > vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> > bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> > enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> > might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny > Tim.> > > > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy > vegan> > child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what > you> > are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> > the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting > diet,> > you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is > suitable> > for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy > adults> > brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> > They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> > children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> > says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> > says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, > but> > with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for > yourself.> > It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> > from a dietician."> > > > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small > children> > more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> > their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> > "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> > higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> > has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods." > > > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> > meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> > iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> > fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> > same amount of iron."> > > > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy > products.> > "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> > content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have > childhood> > sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always > picking> > between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> > Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> > was the third year when my body started disintegrating, > frighteningly> > fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at > half> > nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> > cakes and butter.> > > > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. > He> > asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. > After> > that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> > would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> > and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> > children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says > her> > biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> > people, there is something about these various nutrients in the > animal> > form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows > a> > lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight > she> > is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> > damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they > are> > doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> > before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking > point. "The> > first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they > grown?'" > > > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > > > B12> > > > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> > eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> > fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> > irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > > > Vitamin D> > > > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> > rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> > weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is > crucial> > for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> > Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain > it> > from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> > Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> > from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > > > Calcium> > > > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It > is> > often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > > > Iron> > > > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> > anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> > commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> > and leafy green vegetables.> > > > > > Calories> > > > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough > calories> > can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> > high-fibre diets.> > > > > > Protein> > > > > > High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> > dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, > pulses> > and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> > essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> > which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > > > > >> > -------------------------> ----------> > > Sent from Mail. > > > A Smarter Email.> > >> >> >

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

[Guest guest]



I shouldn't think that is anything to do with your vegan diet. Make sure you have plenty of vitamin B - lentils, wholegrains and cereals and dark green vegetables. Make sure you have enough B12 from fortified foods or supplements.

 

If you lose feeling anywhere again it would be best to see a doctor to check it is nothing serious.

 

Jo

 

 

-

KELLY WILLIAMS

Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:00 AM

Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've had to stop being vegan for a few weeks, i got really ill and lost feelings in my legs. However, i really want to go back, any health advice? Kelly--- On Thu, 19/6/08, heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

heartwerk <jo.heartwork > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill Date: Thursday, 19 June, 2008, 7:38 AM

 

 

The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than Britain.There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not the case.Jo@gro ups.com, "angel.nail" <angel.nail@ ...> wrote:>> I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a chance> to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public forum. > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to> raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the effects> Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron isn't> an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get rid> of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not critisising> a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems from> a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go wrong.> No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that we> have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, and> everyone should do that.> > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> nutrition... as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it all!> > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > Ange > > @gro ups.com, "jo" <jo.heartwork@ > wrote:> >> > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> website very> > shortly.> > Best wishes,> > Patricia> > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' Coordinator> > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that her> > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun> > 2008> > http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- liv> > ing/how-our- vegan-diet- made-us-ill- 848322.html) . A particular raw food> > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to show> > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -> > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -but> > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need for> > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically sound> > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contact> > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety. com along with a wide> > range of nutritional advice.> > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium are> > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by eating a> > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varied> > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short of> > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat over> > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high if> > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens or> > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks are> > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exception> > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also need> > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D and> > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegans> > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society> > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety. com> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95> > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > --> > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > today!> > Web: www.vegansociety. com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald Watson> > House,> > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > - > > Peter VV > > @gro ups.com > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again > > By Natasha Mann> > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- living/how- our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html> > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her> age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and> swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most> nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> was on the alert. > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth> seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their> development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."> > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't> seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."> > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book.> Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had> symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my> shelf for 20 years."> > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have> a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that> included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in> through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> ridiculous." > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating> cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change> to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."> > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman. > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.> > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan> child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you> are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet,> you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable> for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults> brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but> with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself.> It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> from a dietician."> > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children> more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based foods." > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> same amount of iron."> > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products.> "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood> sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking> between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly> fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half> nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> cakes and butter.> > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He> asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After> that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her> biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal> form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a> lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she> is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are> doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The> first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'" > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > B12> > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > Vitamin D> > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial> for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it> from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > Calcium> > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is> often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > Iron> > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> and leafy green vegetables.> > > > Calories> > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories> can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> high-fibre diets.> > > > Protein> > > > High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses> and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----------> > Sent from Mail. > > A Smarter Email.> >>

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]



Hi Fraggle

 

You're right - generally in the UK when we refer to the "orient" or "orientals", we are referring to China and Japan only.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

-

fraggle

Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:04 PM

Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

hey there blake

a coupe things...

"oriental" and "the orient" doesn't quite mean the same thing in the UK as it does in the US. heck, we rarely even use the term over here anymore as i think ya know, as it's fallen out of fashion and is considered more of a slur. In the UK, the Orient is the "far east". China and Japan more er less. AFAIK.

Indians and that region are "asians" in the UK (i guess you would align it with british held regions)

Correct me if i'm worng folks over in UKland.

but, when jo said Orient, i beleive she was just referring to what is today eastern china, japan, and the like.

anywho...in that regard, yes soy has been a mainstay of the regional diet, for thousands of years. According to my "history of food" book, which is dang old and out of date, but chock full of information, soy use in China goes back at least 5000 yrs, when there is written mention of it. Soy has been used as a protein source in that part of the world for generations.

the use of meat, while it has always been there of course, is a much more recent phenomenon. before, you had to be pretty well off to have lotsa meat in yer diet. (pretty much the case actually for most regions of the world until historically quite recently). Sure, ppl ate fish, and raised fowl, and pigs and what have you, but, historically, soy and related items played a much larger role in the local diet.

the current uses of meat and the like, is a much more recent phenomenon, as "western" culture and diet have spread around the world, and modern agricutural techniques (fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, anti-biotics, factory farms and of course oil) have allowed large numbers of animals to be used, killed and eaten..

mbw Jun 19, 2008 7:33 AM Cc: heartwerk Re: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

jo:saying that "oriential men's diet has been based on soy for a long time" is pretty broad and, i believe, incorrect. we'd like to think this way, and it's a great argument for us, but i don't think the stats support it because 1). "oriental" is way too broad to really determine just who we're talking about, and 2). the folks we consider "oriental" (indians, chinese, tibetans, mongolians, indonesians, not to mention japanese, korean, etc) eat all kinds of meats, dairy (esp indians), and so forth. so, pointing to asians and saying "they live long because they eat mostly tofu and little meat" is really very misleading, in my opinion. the second biggest group of asians, indians (one fifth of the world's population, and probably half of all asians), don't eat it at all to my understanding. blake ---- heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: > The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. > The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than > Britain.> > There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this > was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has > been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not > the case.> > Jo> > , "angel.nail" <angel.nail > wrote:> >> > I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> > debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a > chance> > to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public > forum. > > > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> > honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to> > raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the > effects> > Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> > diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron > isn't> > an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get > rid> > of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> > rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> > more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > > > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not > critisising> > a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> > amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems > from> > a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go > wrong.> > No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> > suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> > meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that > we> > have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, > and> > everyone should do that.> > > > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> > because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> > opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> > nutrition...as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it > all!> > > > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > > > Ange > > > > , "jo" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > >> > > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> > website very> > > shortly.> > > Best wishes,> > > Patricia> > > > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' > Coordinator> > > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that > her> > > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 > Jun> > > 2008> > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-liv> > > ing/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html). A particular > raw food> > > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to > show> > > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all > ages -> > > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -> but> > > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the > need for> > > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically > sound> > > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our > contact> > > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety.com along with a > wide> > > range of nutritional advice.> > > > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and > calcium are> > > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by > eating a> > > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a > varied> > > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short > of> > > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, > wheat over> > > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very > high if> > > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring > greens or> > > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant > milks are> > > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an > exception> > > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also > need> > > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough > vitamin D and> > > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all > vegans> > > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The Vegan Society> > > > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety.com> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95> > > > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > > > --> > > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > > today!> > > Web: www.vegansociety.com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald > Watson> > > House,> > > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 > 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Peter VV > > > > > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> > health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think > again > > > By Natasha Mann> > > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-> wellbeing/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html> > > > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> > and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> > flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her> > age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big > and> > swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> > teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the > most> > nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> > and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> > pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> > doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> > have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> > was on the alert. > > > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> > says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> > children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth> > seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had > their> > development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> > and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> > butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> > Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> > going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> > this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad > for you."> > > > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she > didn't> > seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> > thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> > growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt > wrong."> > > > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin > book.> > Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family > had> > symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> > idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on > my> > shelf for 20 years."> > > > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> > In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who > have> > a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement > that> > included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> > Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> > butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition > in> > through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> > ridiculous." > > > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and > eating> > cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> > baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> > cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> > from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic > change> > to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> > are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and > protein."> > > > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> > 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> > rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old > woman. > > > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> > curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> > vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> > bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> > enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> > might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny > Tim.> > > > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy > vegan> > child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what > you> > are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> > the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting > diet,> > you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is > suitable> > for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy > adults> > brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> > They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> > children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> > says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> > says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, > but> > with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for > yourself.> > It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> > from a dietician."> > > > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small > children> > more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> > their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> > "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> > higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> > has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient-based foods." > > > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> > meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> > iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> > fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> > same amount of iron."> > > > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy > products.> > "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> > content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have > childhood> > sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always > picking> > between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> > Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> > was the third year when my body started disintegrating, > frighteningly> > fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at > half> > nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> > cakes and butter.> > > > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. > He> > asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. > After> > that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> > would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> > and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> > children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says > her> > biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> > people, there is something about these various nutrients in the > animal> > form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows > a> > lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight > she> > is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> > damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they > are> > doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> > before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking > point. "The> > first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they > grown?'" > > > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > > > B12> > > > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> > eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> > fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> > irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > > > Vitamin D> > > > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> > rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> > weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is > crucial> > for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> > Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain > it> > from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> > Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> > from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > > > Calcium> > > > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It > is> > often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > > > Iron> > > > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> > anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> > commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> > and leafy green vegetables.> > > > > > Calories> > > > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough > calories> > can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> > high-fibre diets.> > > > > > Protein> > > > > > High-biological-value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> > dairy products. Low-biological-value protein is found in nuts, > pulses> > and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> > essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> > which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > > > > >> > -------------------------> ----------> > > Sent from Mail. > > > A Smarter Email.> > >> >> >

 

 

 

“We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

[Guest guest]

Check you b 12 levels and see a doctor for a physicalKELLY WILLIAMS <kammy2329 wrote: I've had to stop being vegan for a few weeks, i got really ill and lost feelings in my legs. However, i really want to go back, any health advice? Kelly--- On Thu, 19/6/08, heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: heartwerk

<jo.heartwork > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill Date: Thursday, 19 June, 2008, 7:38 AM The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than Britain.There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not the case.Jo@gro ups.com, "angel.nail" <angel.nail@ ...> wrote:>> I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a chance> to refute some

claims and bring veganism back into the public forum. > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> honest i don't feel like i have the right information and skills to> raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the effects> Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron isn't> an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get rid> of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not critisising> a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune

systems from> a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go wrong.> No matter what if you don't get the nutrition right than you will> suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that we> have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, and> everyone should do that.> > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> nutrition... as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it all!> > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > Ange > > @gro ups.com, "jo"

<jo.heartwork@ > wrote:> >> > The following has gone to the Independent and will be on the VS> website very> > shortly.> > Best wishes,> > Patricia> > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' Coordinator> > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that her> > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun> > 2008> > http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- liv> > ing/how-our- vegan-diet- made-us-ill- 848322.html) . A particular raw food> > regime is repeatedly equated to

'veganism' in the article.> > > > The Vegan Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to show> > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -> > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -but> > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need for> > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically sound> > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contact> > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety. com along with a wide> >

range of nutritional advice.> > > > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium are> > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by eating a> > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varied> > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short of> > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat over> > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high if> > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens

or> > kale are eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks are> > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exception> > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also need> > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D and> > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegans> > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor

to The Vegan Society> > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety. com> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95> > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > --> > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > today!> > Web: www.vegansociety. com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald Watson> > House,> > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > - > >

Peter VV > > @gro ups.com > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again > > By Natasha Mann> > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- living/how- our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html> > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should have been> flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for

her> age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and> swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most> nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> was on the alert. > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> says Paige, 45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> children come in all different shapes and

sizes, but their growth> seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their> development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."> > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't> seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> thought they were OK," says Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt

wrong."> > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book.> Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had> symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my> shelf for 20 years."> > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have> a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that> included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition in> through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> ridiculous." > > > >

There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating> cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change> to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."> > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman. > > > > Rickets is a degenerative bone condition that can lead to> curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> vitamin D, usually found in

oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.> > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan> child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you> are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet,> you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable> for all stages of life, and have an army of strapping, healthy adults> brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> They also publish a book with dietary advice on

feeding vegan> children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but> with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself.> It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> from a dietician."> > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children> more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> "With smaller appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based

foods." > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> same amount of iron."> > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products.> "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood> sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking> between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > Paige believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> was the third year when my body started disintegrating,

frighteningly> fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half> nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> cakes and butter.> > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He> asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After> that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says her> biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal> form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but

experience shows a> lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she> is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are> doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The> first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'" > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > > B12> > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead

to> irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > Vitamin D> > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial> for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it> from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > > Calcium> > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is> often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > Iron> > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and

vegetarians can become> anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> and leafy green vegetables.> > > > Calories> > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories> can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> high-fibre diets.> > > > Protein> > > > High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses> and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't contain all the> essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > >>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----------> > Sent from Mail. > > A Smarter Email.> >> Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email. Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kelly,

I am sorry to hear that you are unwell. How varied is your diet?, are you getting lots of pulses and greens? lots of colourfull fruit & veg? and fotified soya products?

You need to see a doctor if you are unwell, and scrutinise your diet, try not to rely on suppliments, but get your vits & minerals from source! as nature intended. But ifthats not possible, try a suppliment if you have to....

Hope you get well soon...

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

KELLY WILLIAMS <kammy2329 Sent: Thursday, 19 June, 2008 11:00:36 AMRe: Re: How our vegan diet made us ill

 

 

 

 

 

I've had to stop being vegan for a few weeks, i got really ill and lost feelings in my legs. However, i really want to go back, any health advice? Kelly--- On Thu, 19/6/08, heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> Re: How our vegan diet made us ill@gro ups.comThursday, 19 June, 2008, 7:38 AM

 

 

The old argument about boys/men and soy crops up very regularly too. The arguemnts against soy seem to be more prevalent in America than Britain.There is no harm to boys/men from consuming soy products. If this was the case all oriental men would be harmed and as their diet has been based on soy for a very long time it is obvious that this is not the case.Jo@gro ups.com, "angel.nail" <angel.nail@ ...> wrote:>> I think that these type of articles can bring about good healthy> debate and usually give organisations like the vegan society a chance> to refute some claims and bring veganism back into the public forum. > > Despite my veganism, my son is vegetarian. He is 17 months and to be> honest i don't

feel like i have the right information and skills to> raise him completely vegan. There is a lot of debate about the effects> Soy has on boys and i don't feel confident that i can supplement his> diet enough without overloading him on Soy. Luckily for me Iron isn't> an issue as i have hemacromatosis (my body doesn't know how to get rid> of iron so it overloads and goes into my major organs causing a> rusting effect) but my son doesn't have it so i have to concentrate> more on him having a well rounded complete diet.> > In saying that, i find it interesting that people are not critisising> a meat based diet as rigorously as they do a vegan or vego diet. The> amount of children i see with runny noses and poor immune systems from> a diet to heavily based on meat is astounding. Any diet can go wrong.> No matter what if you don't get the

nutrition right than you will> suffer. I think that people just assume that because they are eating> meat and dairy they will be right. As vegans and vegos we know that we> have to work at the balance so pay more attention to the details, and> everyone should do that.> > Anyway i like reading the articles that are critical of veganism> because there is so many ways to counteract the arguments. It also> opens up the channels for more information about good vegan> nutrition... as im sure im not the only vegan that doesn't know it all!> > Ok sorry for my rant. Thats all i have to say!> > Ange > > @gro ups.com, "jo" <jo.heartwork@ > wrote:> >> > The following has gone to the

Independent and will be on the VS> website very> > shortly.> > Best wishes,> > Patricia> > > > Patricia Tricker, Vegan Society Trustee & National Contacts' Coordinator> > Cottage 3, Arrathorne, Bedale, DL8 1NA> > e-mail: vegan@> > > > > > FOR PUBLICATION> > > > Parent Holly Paige told Independent journalist Natasha Mann that her> > children could not get enough nutrients on 'a vegan diet' (Tue 17 Jun> > 2008> > http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- liv> > ing/how-our- vegan-diet- made-us-ill- 848322.html) . A particular raw food> > regime is repeatedly equated to 'veganism' in the article.> > > > The Vegan

Society is correctly quoted as having the evidence to show> > that a balanced vegan diet can support a healthy lifestyle at all ages -> > including young children. But the piece is otherwise full of> > unsubstantiated nutritional speculation. For example, the mother> > states that her children were deficient in vitamin D and protein -but> > admits that she has no medical advice to support this diagnosis.> > > > The Vegan Society guidelines for feeding children emphasise the need for> > a varied diet rich in all nutrients. We urge anyone with vegan> > children in their care to contact us for free, scientifically sound> > advice on healthy plant-based nutrition for youngsters. Our contact> > details are on our Web site, www.vegansociety. com along with a wide> > range of nutritional advice.> >

> > The advice given in your article suggests that protein and calcium are> > difficult to obtain on a vegan diet. This is not the case.> > > > Protein needs at every stage of life can be comfortably met by eating a> > good quantity and variety of grains, nuts, seeds, beans and other> > pulses. Vegans can easily get all essential amino acids from a varied> > diet without 'food combining' at a given meal.> > > > However, if you are not getting enough calories, you may go short of> > protein too. To boost protein intake, choose nuts over oils, wheat over> > rice, and include moderate amounts of beans, peas and lentils.> > > > Intake of absorbable calcium from a plant-based diet can be very high if> > large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables such as spring greens or> > kale are

eaten. Calcium-set tofu and suitably fortified plant milks are> > also good sources. However, calcium intake can be low if the diet> > centres on grains or modern cultivated fruits (oranges are an exception> > and a useful source of calcium).> > > > But we cannot rely on calcium alone for healthy bones. We also need> > plenty of potassium, and limited sodium, as well as enough vitamin D and> > protein. These caveats apply to everyone, whatever their diet.> > > > Here at The Vegan Society, we are saddened to hear of the medical> > problems suffered by the family. We would like to remind all vegans> > that their health, and the health of their children is their> > responsibility, and that we are here to help.> > > > Yours sincerely,> > > > Stephen Walsh, Nutrition Advisor to The

Vegan Society> > > > The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley,> > Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Mobile: 07967 361 510 Tel: 0121 523 1730 Fax: 0121 523 1749> > Email: info@ Web: www.vegansociety. com> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95> > > > CC: Features Editor, Letters Editor, Natasha Mann> > > > --> > Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737> > Email: media@ - Request your FREE vegan starter pack> > today!> > Web: www.vegansociety. com Address: The Vegan Society, Donald Watson> > House,> > 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham, B18 6HJ> > Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95 > > > > > > > > > > -

> > Peter VV > > @gro ups.com > > Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:59 PM> > Re: How our vegan diet made us ill> > > > > > > > Holly Paige thought her family's food regime would boost their> health â€" but stick-thin legs and rotten teeth made her think again > > By Natasha Mann> > Tuesday, 17 June 2008> http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ life-style/ health-and-wellbeing/healthy- living/how- our-vegan- diet-made- us-ill-848322. html> > > > One morning over breakfast, Holly Paige looked at her daughter> and realised things weren't right. Lizzie should

have been> flourishing. Instead, her cheeks were pinched, she was small for her> age, and although she had skinny arms and legs, her belly was big and> swollen. When Lizzie smiled, Paige suddenly noticed her upper front> teeth were pitted with holes.> > > > "I was absolutely horrified," recalls Paige. > > > > At the time, Paige was feeding them what she thought was the most> nutritious diet possible. They had been raw vegans for three years,> and ate plenty of fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, soya and> pulses, but no meat, fish or dairy. According to the raw-food> doctrine, Lizzie and Bertie, then three and four-and-a-half, should> have been brimming with good health. But Paige's mothering instinct> was on the alert. > > > > "I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put a finger on it,"> says Paige,

45. "They were two sizes behind in clothes. Of course,> children come in all different shapes and sizes, but their growth> seemed to be slowing further. I have two older children so I had their> development to measure Lizzie and Bertie's against."> > > > There were other oddities: "I remember going to the supermarket> and buying butter for my older children. Lizzie, who had never had> butter in her life, would grab the packet and gnaw into it," says> Paige. "It was really disconcerting. I would be thinking, 'What is> going on? Here is this purely fed child â€" why would she need to do> this?' I was so brainwashed into thinking dairy products are bad for you."> > > > When she took Lizzie and Bertie to her health visitor, she didn't> seem too concerned. "She said they were in the low percentile, but> thought they were OK," says

Paige. "Yet I knew the children weren't> growing. I could sense that there was something wrong. It felt wrong."> > > > Finally, Paige stumbled across the answer in an old vitamin book.> Although she has no medical confirmation, she believes the family had> symptoms of vitamin D- and protein-deficiency. "I felt like such an> idiot. I got the information from a book I'd had sitting around on my> shelf for 20 years."> > > > The discovery brought a swift end to her experience of veganism.> In Totnes, where she lives, Paige knows many other raw vegans who have> a nature-loving lifestyle. But despite taking a daily supplement that> included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering.> Today, the family still mainly has a raw diet, but Paigeincludes> butter, cheese, eggs and occasionally fish. "I had let malnutrition

in> through the back door in the name of health," says Paige. "It was> ridiculous." > > > > There is a significant difference between being vegan (and eating> cooked foods) and raw vegan. Vegans benefit from fortified cereals,> baked goods and a wider variety of grains and pulses; what's more,> cooking aids the absorption of some micronutrients. But Lisa Miles,> from the British Nutrition Foundation, says: "The most dramatic change> to the diet is being vegan rather than the raw element, because you> are cutting out two huge food groups. This affects vitamin D and protein."> > > > Last week, strict diets for children were questioned after a> 12-year-old vegan girl was admitted to a Scottish hospital with> rickets. Her spine was said to resemble that of an 80-year-old woman. > > > > Rickets is a

degenerative bone condition that can lead to> curvature of the spine and bone fractures. It is caused by a lack of> vitamin D, usually found in oily fish, eggs, butter and made by our> bodies from sunshine â€" although in the UK the sun is only strong> enough to do this between April and September. It's a disease you> might more commonly associate with the Dickensian character, Tiny Tim.> > > > Many dieticians believe it is possible to bring up a healthy vegan> child. "You can do it, but you do have to make sure you know what you> are doing, especially in regards to weight," says Jackie Lowdon from> the British Dietician Association. "As with any self-restricting diet,> you need to get proper professional advice." > > > > The Vegan Society, unsurprisingly, claim that the diet is suitable> for all stages of life, and have

an army of strapping, healthy adults> brought up as vegans from birth who are happy to talk to the media.> They also publish a book with dietary advice on feeding vegan> children, written by dietician Sandra Hood. A spokeswoman, however,> says they would not recommend a raw vegan diet for children. > > > > Nigel Denby, a dietician and author of Nutrition for Dummies,> says: "It can be hard enough bringing a child up to eat healthily, but> with a vegan diet you are really making a difficult job for yourself.> It is absolutely not something that should be tried without support> from a dietician."> > > > Several factors, says Denby, make a vegan diet for small children> more difficult. With a restricted range of foods, if children turn> their nose up at one particular food, you could be stuck for choice.> "With smaller

appetites and portion sizes, children under five have> higher nutrient requirements than adults. Therefore, every mealtime> has to be an opportunity to feed them high-nutrient- based foods." > > > > Care must be taken with certain nutrients. "Haem iron, found in> meat, is easier for the body to absorb," explains Denby. "Non-haem> iron, which is just as good, is found in leafy vegetables and> fortified cereals, but you have to eat a greater amount to get the> same amount of iron."> > > > Paige now believes that her children were craving dairy products.> "It was confusing because for the first year I felt good, calm and> content, and had plenty of energy. The children didn't have childhood> sicknesses. But something seemed to be missing. We were always picking> between meals, always obsessed by food."> > > > Paige

believes long-term breastfeeding helped sustain Lizzie and> Bertie, but the toll of veganism on her own health was dramatic: "It> was the third year when my body started disintegrating, frighteningly> fast. I was getting thin, losing muscle and I was going to bed at half> nine." She would also have "mad" binges, and eat nothing but rice> cakes and butter.> > > > The last straw came when Paige's eldest son Bruce came to stay. He> asked her to buy chicken, and Paige ended up eating half of it. After> that, she couldn't stop. "I just went wild. Typically, in a day I> would eat half a chicken, two litres of milk, half a pound of cheese> and three eggs. I just had to do it. It went on for weeks. The> children were having lots of boiled eggs and cheese." > > > > Paige, who now runs an online magazine and raw food shop, says

her> biggest lesson is never to be too restrictive again. "For a lot of> people, there is something about these various nutrients in the animal> form that we can assimilate. I don't know why, but experience shows a> lot of us can't get enough protein on a vegan diet."> > > > Now when Paige looks at her two youngest, now seven and eight she> is certain they are thriving. "There was a moment when I was worried> damage had been done for life," she says. "Now, I'm confident they are> doing well. Even though they eat as much fruit and dried fruit as> before, their teeth haven't had one bit more decay."> > > > And nowadays, it's their growth that's the big talking point. "The> first thing anyone says when they visit is: 'My, haven't they grown?'" > > > > Nutrients that everyone needs> > > >

B12> > > > Because this vitamin is mainly found in meat, dairy products and> eggs, vegans must get it from other sources such as supplements,> fortified breakfast cereals and Marmite. Deficiency can lead to> irreversible nervous system damage.> > > > Vitamin D> > > > Our skins make vitamin D when exposed to the sun's ultraviolet> rays. But with desk-bound jobs, long winters and unpredictable> weather, it is not always possible to get enough. Vitamin D is crucial> for bone growth in children, and deficiency can result in rickets.> Oily fish is one of the best dietary sources, but vegans can obtain it> from fortified breakfast cereals and margarine. People living in> Scotland may need to take greater care over vitamin D, as may people> from cultures that require them to cover up.> > > >

Calcium> > > > Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is> often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.> > > > Iron> > > > Without sufficient iron, vegans and vegetarians can become> anaemic. Deficiency can also delay growth in toddlers. Iron is> commonly found in meat, but vegetarians can source iron from pulses> and leafy green vegetables.> > > > Calories> > > > Although childhood obesity is an issue today, not enough calories> can mean children don't grow properly. This can be a problem in> high-fibre diets.> > > > Protein> > > > High-biological- value protein is found in meat, fish, eggs and> dairy products. Low-biological- value protein is found in nuts, pulses> and wholegrains. Separately, the latter don't

contain all the> essential amino acids, but do when combined correctly. Knowledge of> which foods to mix together is therefore crucial.> > > > > > > > > > Peter vv._,___ > > > > > >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----------> > Sent from Mail. > > A Smarter Email.> >>

 

Sent from Mail. A Smarter Email.

 

 

Sent from Mail.

 

A Smarter Email.

[Guest guest]

At 10:00 AM +0000 6/19/08, KELLY WILLIAMS wrote:

I've had to stop being vegan for a few weeks, i got really ill

and lost feelings in my legs. However, i really want to go back, any

health advice? Kelly

>>

 

Did you keep a food diary of what you were eating before and

after?

 

I vaguely recollect hearing of such problems when some people eat

artifical sweeteners. I've also heard (third-hand) of people claiming

they had this kind of problem from vitamin D supplements that are

added to foods.