for peter vv, him and his dang questions, gods this, gods that

[Guest guest]

ok, i tried looking for some of my books, but i can't seem to find any of the relevant ones, so gonna have to go from me brain.

you asked which came firt, the greek version or the roman. well, neither, and you are also looking at it the wrong way.

first off, what we call the Greek pantheon today wasn't a static creation. it took place over centuries, and new tradtions and creation stories were added in as new peoples, ideas, and cultures crossed and traded.

its not as if one day the pantheon of Zeus, Hera, Athean, poesidon, et al just poofed into existence one day. heck, even their creation stories are contradictory, intertwined and change. (sorry if i step on any toes andrea blue rose! ) thats because they are living stories. they changed as new people met each other, new traditions came into contact, etc.

look for example at aphrodite...goddess of love and all that...well, was she born out of the sea foam because of the titan Ouranos' castration? or was she the the offspring of Zeus and..heck, i forget..but, anyways..there are several stories of her "birth" it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. it means there are different traditions and different stories coming together.

much of what we today view as the Roman and Greek pantheons were an amalgamtion of many different migrations of people. a lot of it comes from the near east, and probably from much farther a field. that indo-european root language did spread it's mighty wings far!

Neither th romans nor the greeks had it "first" . you are talking about traditions that probably started in the Bronze age or before. pre-hellenistic. much came from the near east, the hittites and assorted cultures. you can follow the stories of the gods back and back from the etruscan and greek ideas of apollo to the lycian apalinas to the HittiteAplu. add in the Mycenean god paieon and you begin to create apollo

now, take Homer..these stories come from the 8th or 9th century BC. yet they deal with events from the Mycenean (sic) civilization which collapsed a 150-300 yrs before.

rome was founded (by traditoon) in the 8th century BC.

but the ideas and stories of the gods are older. they just grew as the various city states, peoples, and empiers grew.

when one group met another group, they exchanged ideas, they exchanged stories, they exchanged traditions. and as the pantheons of various peoples interwtined and become more "settled", it was easy for Flavius the Roman to talk with Sophocles the Greek about their various gods, as they had similar backgrounds, stories, back fill, culture.

when the romans absorbded the greek city states, they didn't go Zeus=Jupiter and that was that. there was amelding. one culture took the other's gods in and said "see, ain;t that different"

and, its not like each god was totally unique in his or her own way. temples all over europe attest to a melding a new "conquering" god with a local god. traditons blur. that's how you end up with temples dedicated to Apollo grannus and apollo borvo.

different traditions were linked as people mixed and ideas changed the way people thought

so, you can't say "which came frst"

neither did.

they grew as their civilizations grew, and constantly added to themselves.

(you want to hear the best and funniest part..the whole apollo business i learned from researching gods for dungeons and dragons..wahahahahahahahahhahahahahaahaa)

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 2:57 PM Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

 

whoa, rewind, the question was how could two religions start at the same time (greek & roman) and have the same gods with different names.One must have preceded the other surely?, so which is the older?

.......and what are the elder gods?

didnt nomadic tribes have a more simplified belief system ( worship the sky god, sort of thing) so why have so many as the greeks and romans did?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Monday, 30 June, 2008 10:51:19 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

oh dear bacchus...

ok..so peter, are you talking "belief", faith, all religion, or organized religion? give me a focal point to start at.

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 1:46 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

There you go Oracle, continue with my education. Oh, and I couldnt wait for you to agree , so I had another bottle anyway...... .....

 

 

Peter vv

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 10:44:19 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 Carry on - I'm reading :-)

 

Jo

 

 

-

fraggle

@gro ups.com

Monday, June 30, 2008 8:53 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

would you like to take this offline? i'm not sure if anyone else is really interested in this rather long discussion.

as for wheat beer, yes have another bottle. had a few yesterday out in SF...very refreshing when the sun come out! tho,

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 11:50 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

 

how so? "technically" ? care to expand on that? how could two different civilisations wake up one morning , both on the same day with synchronised sun dials, and think lets have a god of the sea, one for love, one for wine, etc, etc,

and another thing, shall I have another bottle of wheat beer or not?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.net>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 8:34:50 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

the romans were very good at absorbing other cultures, and taking what they wanted/needed.

technically, neither came first.

Peter VV Jun 28, 2008 1:40 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

 

I thought the greek gods were the same as the roman gods, but with different names?, which came first? or did they arrive at the same time? did one copy off the other?

What are classed as the old gods?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

Peter Kebbell <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comSaturday, 28 June, 2008 10:33:22 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

Oh crumbs.... well, I can try! Although it does get quite complicated with the various theories that are around (and I'm a few years out of date, so it's possible that there are different theories nowadays!)The oldest known religions are those of ancient Sumer and Egypt, although both were already very complex and well developed by the time we know anything about them (around 3,000 BCE), so were probably already ancient at that point. It's pretty likely that religious belief has been around since humanity (or its predecessors) became sentient!I don't know exactly how old the Roman gods are - the Roman republic itself appeared around 750 BCE, and as far as I know, the religion that developed in that has its roots in the "clan" religions that were encompassed in the republic. Same with Greek gods. Judaism in anything approaching its modern form developed around the time of the Babylonian exile (c.500 BCE), but has roots going back to the tribal peoples of modern day Israel / Palestine, along with roots in Sumerian and Egyptian religions. Christianity in its modern form developed over the first 3 or 4 centuries CE...BBPeter

2008/6/28 Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>:

 

 

 

Well, you certainly did big him up there!

I shall wait and see if the expert replies.

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Friday, 27 June, 2008 11:19:33 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 Peter's your man for that answer - he has discussed with world experts, and might even be one himself.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

 

Friday, June 27, 2008 8:33 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it possible to put an age on a faith ( you said old gods ), I wonder what the oldest faith would be?

 

Peter vv

 

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 11:15:44 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 Yes, people do believe in all the old gods.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

 

Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:17 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

Realy? worship as in believe they exist sort of thing? wow, does anyone believe on Roman gods still? are they two sides of the same coin, dont wish to offend, I realy am ignorant, sorry.

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 10:12:20 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

I worship Greek gods.

 

 

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

Boy am I ignorant, I dont understand any of this?

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 9:28:08 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

Not all, but working on it! The current one is my favorite. He is quite squee.

 

I'm a Greek polytheist. I'd describe myself more as either syncretic or "intelligently eclectic". I don't really mix 'n' match, just fill holes.

 

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:20 PM, jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

Oooooh! I feel some chat coming on :-)

 

What path are you (I'm eclectic and Druid (but not wholly)) and have you seen all the old Doctors? or did you come in on the newer ones? We have just two episodes left this year :-( but they look as though they should be good.

 

BBJo

 

 

 

 

-

Blue Rose

 

@gro ups.com

 

 

 

 

Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:16 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

Yay!<-- also a Pagan and Doctor Who fan. :D

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:54 AM, heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

I personally like heavy metal, Doctor Who, Paganism and theparanormal, photography, gardening, gentle walks etc.What do you like?

 

-- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans

 

 

-- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans

 

Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at

-- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans

 

 

Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at

 

 

Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at

 

 

Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at

 

Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at “We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

 

Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at “We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

 

 

Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at “We now know that a neo-conservative is an arsonist who sets the house on fire and six years later boasts that no one can put it out.†- Bill Moyers

 

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With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

[Guest guest]

Very nice. One of the things that's wrong with the world today is the

notion that *anything* is either/or, that there are only two choices

rather than a spectrum or a gazillion shades of gray. In the u.s.,

it's are you a democrat or a republican. Are you for us or against

us. Etc. And it's never that simple, never like a disney cartoon.

 

Coincidentally, I recently read the book _Lavinia_ by Ursula LeGuin,

a novel about a woman who was mentioned in passing in Homer. She

lived in the area south of what would one day become Rome, and the

book takes place after Trojan refugees land there after losing the

Trojan War to the Greeks, so in one area you have Roman, Etruscan,

Trojan, and Greek traditions meeting and melding. One of Lavinia's

duties was to pay daily homage to the lares, the household gods, who

were the most important ones. She periodically visited a sacred grove

to consult the oracle, which involved being quiet, sleeping on the

ground, and paying attention to dreams (and sacrificing animals --

disgusting, but it was one animal, not millions a day, as today). A

few other gods were mentioned by name, but more in the context of

moods/emotions or activities, not as anthropomorphic entities.

 

LeGuin's research gave me the impression that named gods came about

so that people who wanted to consolidate power/resources could hold

*someone* (else) responsible when things did not go the way the way

they'd schemed...sort of an early version of " the dog ate my

homework " or " we thought they had WMDs. " (Not that anything like this

was in the book, I'm extrapolating and speculating wildly.) Then the

capital-g god thing was about taking back personal responsibility,

but that pov didn't stick, either, once the power-consolidators

melded it to their own purposes. The whole power-over notion is a bad

idea.

[Guest guest]

Yes, we are still pretty much tied up with the so-called "Law of Duality".Stuck in "Flatland"...

... how do we ever get out of our box?Are You a god?Cheers,Beatriz--- On Tue, 7/1/08, yarrow <yarrow wrote:yarrow <yarrowRe: for peter vv, him and his dang questions, gods this, gods that Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:58 AM

 

Very nice. One of the things that's wrong with the world today is the

notion that *anything* is either/or, that there are only two choices

rather than a spectrum or a gazillion shades of gray. In the u.s.,

it's are you a democrat or a republican. Are you for us or against

us. Etc. And it's never that simple, never like a disney cartoon.

 

Coincidentally, I recently read the book _Lavinia_ by Ursula LeGuin,

a novel about a woman who was mentioned in passing in Homer. She

lived in the area south of what would one day become Rome, and the

book takes place after Trojan refugees land there after losing the

Trojan War to the Greeks, so in one area you have Roman, Etruscan,

Trojan, and Greek traditions meeting and melding. One of Lavinia's

duties was to pay daily homage to the lares, the household gods, who

were the most important ones. She periodically visited a sacred grove

to consult the oracle, which involved being quiet, sleeping on the

ground, and paying attention to dreams (and sacrificing animals --

disgusting, but it was one animal, not millions a day, as today). A

few other gods were mentioned by name, but more in the context of

moods/emotions or activities, not as anthropomorphic entities.

 

LeGuin's research gave me the impression that named gods came about

so that people who wanted to consolidate power/resources could hold

*someone* (else) responsible when things did not go the way the way

they'd schemed...sort of an early version of "the dog ate my

homework" or "we thought they had WMDs." (Not that anything like this

was in the book, I'm extrapolating and speculating wildly.) Then the

capital-g god thing was about taking back personal responsibility,

but that pov didn't stick, either, once the power-consolidators

melded it to their own purposes. The whole power-over notion is a bad

idea.

[Guest guest]

what, you don't like the choices being pepsi and coke?

small small world...i was just reading about Lavinia the other week, via Aeneas and the exiled trojans, and how the line of the Julian patrichian house supposedly dates itself back to them.

yarrow Jul 1, 2008 12:58 AM Re: for peter vv, him and his dang questions, gods this, gods that

 

 

 

Very nice. One of the things that's wrong with the world today is the notion that *anything* is either/or, that there are only two choices rather than a spectrum or a gazillion shades of gray. In the u.s., it's are you a democrat or a republican. Are you for us or against us. Etc. And it's never that simple, never like a disney cartoon.Coincidentally, I recently read the book _Lavinia_ by Ursula LeGuin, a novel about a woman who was mentioned in passing in Homer. She lived in the area south of what would one day become Rome, and the book takes place after Trojan refugees land there after losing the Trojan War to the Greeks, so in one area you have Roman, Etruscan, Trojan, and Greek traditions meeting and melding. One of Lavinia's duties was to pay daily homage to the lares, the household gods, who were the most important ones. She periodically visited a sacred grove to consult the oracle, which involved being quiet, sleeping on the ground, and paying attention to dreams (and sacrificing animals -- disgusting, but it was one animal, not millions a day, as today). A few other gods were mentioned by name, but more in the context of moods/emotions or activities, not as anthropomorphic entities.LeGuin's research gave me the impression that named gods came about so that people who wanted to consolidate power/resources could hold *someone* (else) responsible when things did not go the way the way they'd schemed...sort of an early version of "the dog ate my homework" or "we thought they had WMDs." (Not that anything like this was in the book, I'm extrapolating and speculating wildly.) Then the capital-g god thing was about taking back personal responsibility, but that pov didn't stick, either, once the power-consolidators melded it to their own purposes. The whole power-over notion is a bad idea.

 

 

 

 

With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

[Guest guest]

OK Brain box, which civilisation came first the greeks?, so their gods came first right in whatever format be it vinyl, cassette, or CD?

Time to annoy everyone further,

So what your saying is much like the bible is a bunch of stories handed down and probably changed along the way, so did the other religions and their gods?

Why did xtians only have 1 god then? were they less inventive?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Tuesday, 1 July, 2008 6:52:54 AM for peter vv, him and his dang questions, gods this, gods that

 

 

ok, i tried looking for some of my books, but i can't seem to find any of the relevant ones, so gonna have to go from me brain.

you asked which came firt, the greek version or the roman. well, neither, and you are also looking at it the wrong way.

first off, what we call the Greek pantheon today wasn't a static creation. it took place over centuries, and new tradtions and creation stories were added in as new peoples, ideas, and cultures crossed and traded.

its not as if one day the pantheon of Zeus, Hera, Athean, poesidon, et al just poofed into existence one day. heck, even their creation stories are contradictory, intertwined and change. (sorry if i step on any toes andrea blue rose! ) thats because they are living stories. they changed as new people met each other, new traditions came into contact, etc.

look for example at aphrodite... goddess of love and all that...well, was she born out of the sea foam because of the titan Ouranos' castration? or was she the the offspring of Zeus and..heck, i forget..but, anyways..there are several stories of her "birth" it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. it means there are different traditions and different stories coming together.

much of what we today view as the Roman and Greek pantheons were an amalgamtion of many different migrations of people. a lot of it comes from the near east, and probably from much farther a field. that indo-european root language did spread it's mighty wings far!

Neither th romans nor the greeks had it "first" . you are talking about traditions that probably started in the Bronze age or before. pre-hellenistic. much came from the near east, the hittites and assorted cultures. you can follow the stories of the gods back and back from the etruscan and greek ideas of apollo to the lycian apalinas to the HittiteAplu. add in the Mycenean god paieon and you begin to create apollo

now, take Homer..these stories come from the 8th or 9th century BC. yet they deal with events from the Mycenean (sic) civilization which collapsed a 150-300 yrs before.

rome was founded (by traditoon) in the 8th century BC.

but the ideas and stories of the gods are older. they just grew as the various city states, peoples, and empiers grew.

when one group met another group, they exchanged ideas, they exchanged stories, they exchanged traditions. and as the pantheons of various peoples interwtined and become more "settled", it was easy for Flavius the Roman to talk with Sophocles the Greek about their various gods, as they had similar backgrounds, stories, back fill, culture.

when the romans absorbded the greek city states, they didn't go Zeus=Jupiter and that was that. there was amelding. one culture took the other's gods in and said "see, ain;t that different"

and, its not like each god was totally unique in his or her own way. temples all over europe attest to a melding a new "conquering" god with a local god. traditons blur. that's how you end up with temples dedicated to Apollo grannus and apollo borvo.

different traditions were linked as people mixed and ideas changed the way people thought

so, you can't say "which came frst"

neither did.

they grew as their civilizations grew, and constantly added to themselves.

(you want to hear the best and funniest part..the whole apollo business i learned from researching gods for dungeons and dragons..wahahahaha hahahahhahahahah aahaa)

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 2:57 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

 

whoa, rewind, the question was how could two religions start at the same time (greek & roman) and have the same gods with different names.One must have preceded the other surely?, so which is the older?

.......and what are the elder gods?

didnt nomadic tribes have a more simplified belief system ( worship the sky god, sort of thing) so why have so many as the greeks and romans did?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.net>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 10:51:19 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

oh dear bacchus...

ok..so peter, are you talking "belief", faith, all religion, or organized religion? give me a focal point to start at.

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 1:46 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

There you go Oracle, continue with my education. Oh, and I couldnt wait for you to agree , so I had another bottle anyway...... .....

 

 

Peter vv

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 10:44:19 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 Carry on - I'm reading :-)

 

Jo

 

 

-

fraggle

@gro ups.com

Monday, June 30, 2008 8:53 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

would you like to take this offline? i'm not sure if anyone else is really interested in this rather long discussion.

as for wheat beer, yes have another bottle. had a few yesterday out in SF...very refreshing when the sun come out! tho,

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 11:50 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

 

how so? "technically" ? care to expand on that? how could two different civilisations wake up one morning , both on the same day with synchronised sun dials, and think lets have a god of the sea, one for love, one for wine, etc, etc,

and another thing, shall I have another bottle of wheat beer or not?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.net>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 8:34:50 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

the romans were very good at absorbing other cultures, and taking what they wanted/needed.

technically, neither came first.

Peter VV Jun 28, 2008 1:40 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

 

I thought the greek gods were the same as the roman gods, but with different names?, which came first? or did they arrive at the same time? did one copy off the other?

What are classed as the old gods?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

Peter Kebbell <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comSaturday, 28 June, 2008 10:33:22 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

Oh crumbs.... well, I can try! Although it does get quite complicated with the various theories that are around (and I'm a few years out of date, so it's possible that there are different theories nowadays!)The oldest known religions are those of ancient Sumer and Egypt, although both were already very complex and well developed by the time we know anything about them (around 3,000 BCE), so were probably already ancient at that point. It's pretty likely that religious belief has been around since humanity (or its predecessors) became sentient!I don't know exactly how old the Roman gods are - the Roman republic itself appeared around 750 BCE, and as far as I know, the religion that developed in that has its roots in the "clan" religions that were encompassed in the republic. Same with Greek gods. Judaism in anything approaching its modern form developed around the time of the Babylonian exile (c.500 BCE), but has roots

going back to the tribal peoples of modern day Israel / Palestine, along with roots in Sumerian and Egyptian religions. Christianity in its modern form developed over the first 3 or 4 centuries CE...BBPeter

2008/6/28 Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>:

 

 

 

Well, you certainly did big him up there!

I shall wait and see if the expert replies.

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Friday, 27 June, 2008 11:19:33 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 Peter's your man for that answer - he has discussed with world experts, and might even be one himself.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

 

Friday, June 27, 2008 8:33 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it possible to put an age on a faith ( you said old gods ), I wonder what the oldest faith would be?

 

Peter vv

 

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 11:15:44 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 Yes, people do believe in all the old gods.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

 

Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:17 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

Realy? worship as in believe they exist sort of thing? wow, does anyone believe on Roman gods still? are they two sides of the same coin, dont wish to offend, I realy am ignorant, sorry.

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 10:12:20 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

I worship Greek gods.

 

 

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

Boy am I ignorant, I dont understand any of this?

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 9:28:08 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

Not all, but working on it! The current one is my favorite. He is quite squee.

 

I'm a Greek polytheist. I'd describe myself more as either syncretic or "intelligently eclectic". I don't really mix 'n' match, just fill holes.

 

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:20 PM, jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

Oooooh! I feel some chat coming on :-)

 

What path are you (I'm eclectic and Druid (but not wholly)) and have you seen all the old Doctors? or did you come in on the newer ones? We have just two episodes left this year :-( but they look as though they should be good.

 

BBJo

 

 

 

 

-

Blue Rose

 

@gro ups.com

 

 

 

 

Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:16 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

Yay!<-- also a Pagan and Doctor Who fan. :D

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:54 AM, heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

I personally like heavy metal, Doctor Who, Paganism and theparanormal, photography, gardening, gentle walks etc.What do you like?

 

-- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans

 

 

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[Guest guest]

ok, enough peter

stepped over the line.

not funny

Peter VV Jul 1, 2008 11:05 AM Re: for peter vv, him and his dang questions, gods this, gods that

 

 

 

 

 

OK Brain box, which civilisation came first the greeks?, so their gods came first right in whatever format be it vinyl, cassette, or CD?

Time to annoy everyone further,

So what your saying is much like the bible is a bunch of stories handed down and probably changed along the way, so did the other religions and their gods?

Why did xtians only have 1 god then? were they less inventive?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Tuesday, 1 July, 2008 6:52:54 AM for peter vv, him and his dang questions, gods this, gods that

 

 

ok, i tried looking for some of my books, but i can't seem to find any of the relevant ones, so gonna have to go from me brain.

you asked which came firt, the greek version or the roman. well, neither, and you are also looking at it the wrong way.

first off, what we call the Greek pantheon today wasn't a static creation. it took place over centuries, and new tradtions and creation stories were added in as new peoples, ideas, and cultures crossed and traded.

its not as if one day the pantheon of Zeus, Hera, Athean, poesidon, et al just poofed into existence one day. heck, even their creation stories are contradictory, intertwined and change. (sorry if i step on any toes andrea blue rose! ) thats because they are living stories. they changed as new people met each other, new traditions came into contact, etc.

look for example at aphrodite... goddess of love and all that...well, was she born out of the sea foam because of the titan Ouranos' castration? or was she the the offspring of Zeus and..heck, i forget..but, anyways..there are several stories of her "birth" it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. it means there are different traditions and different stories coming together.

much of what we today view as the Roman and Greek pantheons were an amalgamtion of many different migrations of people. a lot of it comes from the near east, and probably from much farther a field. that indo-european root language did spread it's mighty wings far!

Neither th romans nor the greeks had it "first" . you are talking about traditions that probably started in the Bronze age or before. pre-hellenistic. much came from the near east, the hittites and assorted cultures. you can follow the stories of the gods back and back from the etruscan and greek ideas of apollo to the lycian apalinas to the HittiteAplu. add in the Mycenean god paieon and you begin to create apollo

now, take Homer..these stories come from the 8th or 9th century BC. yet they deal with events from the Mycenean (sic) civilization which collapsed a 150-300 yrs before.

rome was founded (by traditoon) in the 8th century BC.

but the ideas and stories of the gods are older. they just grew as the various city states, peoples, and empiers grew.

when one group met another group, they exchanged ideas, they exchanged stories, they exchanged traditions. and as the pantheons of various peoples interwtined and become more "settled", it was easy for Flavius the Roman to talk with Sophocles the Greek about their various gods, as they had similar backgrounds, stories, back fill, culture.

when the romans absorbded the greek city states, they didn't go Zeus=Jupiter and that was that. there was amelding. one culture took the other's gods in and said "see, ain;t that different"

and, its not like each god was totally unique in his or her own way. temples all over europe attest to a melding a new "conquering" god with a local god. traditons blur. that's how you end up with temples dedicated to Apollo grannus and apollo borvo.

different traditions were linked as people mixed and ideas changed the way people thought

so, you can't say "which came frst"

neither did.

they grew as their civilizations grew, and constantly added to themselves.

(you want to hear the best and funniest part..the whole apollo business i learned from researching gods for dungeons and dragons..wahahahaha hahahahhahahahah aahaa)

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 2:57 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

 

whoa, rewind, the question was how could two religions start at the same time (greek & roman) and have the same gods with different names.One must have preceded the other surely?, so which is the older?

.......and what are the elder gods?

didnt nomadic tribes have a more simplified belief system ( worship the sky god, sort of thing) so why have so many as the greeks and romans did?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.net>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 10:51:19 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

oh dear bacchus...

ok..so peter, are you talking "belief", faith, all religion, or organized religion? give me a focal point to start at.

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 1:46 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

There you go Oracle, continue with my education. Oh, and I couldnt wait for you to agree , so I had another bottle anyway...... .....

 

 

Peter vv

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 10:44:19 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 Carry on - I'm reading :-)

 

Jo

 

 

-

fraggle

@gro ups.com

Monday, June 30, 2008 8:53 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

would you like to take this offline? i'm not sure if anyone else is really interested in this rather long discussion.

as for wheat beer, yes have another bottle. had a few yesterday out in SF...very refreshing when the sun come out! tho,

Peter VV Jun 30, 2008 11:50 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

 

 

 

how so? "technically" ? care to expand on that? how could two different civilisations wake up one morning , both on the same day with synchronised sun dials, and think lets have a god of the sea, one for love, one for wine, etc, etc,

and another thing, shall I have another bottle of wheat beer or not?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.net>@gro ups.comMonday, 30 June, 2008 8:34:50 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of roman gods here

 

 

the romans were very good at absorbing other cultures, and taking what they wanted/needed.

technically, neither came first.

Peter VV Jun 28, 2008 1:40 PM @gro ups.com Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

 

I thought the greek gods were the same as the roman gods, but with different names?, which came first? or did they arrive at the same time? did one copy off the other?

What are classed as the old gods?

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

Peter Kebbell <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comSaturday, 28 June, 2008 10:33:22 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

Oh crumbs.... well, I can try! Although it does get quite complicated with the various theories that are around (and I'm a few years out of date, so it's possible that there are different theories nowadays!)The oldest known religions are those of ancient Sumer and Egypt, although both were already very complex and well developed by the time we know anything about them (around 3,000 BCE), so were probably already ancient at that point. It's pretty likely that religious belief has been around since humanity (or its predecessors) became sentient!I don't know exactly how old the Roman gods are - the Roman republic itself appeared around 750 BCE, and as far as I know, the religion that developed in that has its roots in the "clan" religions that were encompassed in the republic. Same with Greek gods. Judaism in anything approaching its modern form developed around the time of the Babylonian exile (c.500 BCE), but has roots going back to the tribal peoples of modern day Israel / Palestine, along with roots in Sumerian and Egyptian religions. Christianity in its modern form developed over the first 3 or 4 centuries CE...BBPeter

2008/6/28 Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>:

 

 

 

Well, you certainly did big him up there!

I shall wait and see if the expert replies.

 

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Friday, 27 June, 2008 11:19:33 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 Peter's your man for that answer - he has discussed with world experts, and might even be one himself.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

 

Friday, June 27, 2008 8:33 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it possible to put an age on a faith ( you said old gods ), I wonder what the oldest faith would be?

 

Peter vv

 

 

jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 11:15:44 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 Yes, people do believe in all the old gods.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

 

Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:17 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

 

Realy? worship as in believe they exist sort of thing? wow, does anyone believe on Roman gods still? are they two sides of the same coin, dont wish to offend, I realy am ignorant, sorry.

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 10:12:20 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

I worship Greek gods.

 

 

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

Boy am I ignorant, I dont understand any of this?

 

 

Peter vv

 

 

Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com

Thursday, 26 June, 2008 9:28:08 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

 

Not all, but working on it! The current one is my favorite. He is quite squee.

 

I'm a Greek polytheist. I'd describe myself more as either syncretic or "intelligently eclectic". I don't really mix 'n' match, just fill holes.

 

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:20 PM, jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

Oooooh! I feel some chat coming on :-)

 

What path are you (I'm eclectic and Druid (but not wholly)) and have you seen all the old Doctors? or did you come in on the newer ones? We have just two episodes left this year :-( but they look as though they should be good.

 

BBJo

 

 

 

 

-

Blue Rose

 

@gro ups.com

 

 

 

 

Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:16 PM

Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here

 

 

Yay!<-- also a Pagan and Doctor Who fan. :D

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:54 AM, heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

I personally like heavy metal, Doctor Who, Paganism and theparanormal, photography, gardening, gentle walks etc.What do you like?

 

-- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans

 

 

-- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans

 

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With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.