Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork Sent: Wednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 funny you mention that, because reebcca is the exact opposite she really doesn't like when we dry stuff on the line, and if she gets a chance she will sneak away to the laudramat, even when she feels bad about it. we use seventh generation mostly. stopped using Ecover awhile back when we found out they started testing on animals heartwerk Aug 5, 2008 11:45 PM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 we've used vinegar a couple times as a fabric softener.... it worked "ok" personally, i could use it or not...rebecca wasn't really thrilled with it. sad about ecover Peter VV Aug 6, 2008 4:46 AM Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork > Sent: Wednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008  I think I might do that - probably ylang ylang or geranium. I went to the Co-op today and bought some of their washing tablets, BUAV approved and no animal ingredients - also got some of their washing up liquid, which is a lot cheaper than some of the others. I'll let you know how they work. I also bought some of their own brand fabric softener - saw the BUAV approval so thought it was okay. When I got it home I found it had an animal ingredient in it :-( I will use up this bottle, but obviously won't buy it again. JO - Peter VV Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:46 PM Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork > Sent: Wednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008  LOL - I do like to dry them outside, but the little birdies make them dirty! and I'd rather have the birdies being fed properly. Maybe I should have a gazebo and dry the washing in that. JO - fraggle Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:20 PM Re: Washing funny you mention that, because reebcca is the exact opposite she really doesn't like when we dry stuff on the line, and if she gets a chance she will sneak away to the laudramat, even when she feels bad about it. we use seventh generation mostly. stopped using Ecover awhile back when we found out they started testing on animals heartwerk Aug 5, 2008 11:45 PM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Some of the non-chlorine bleaches, I think ours is from Seventh Generation, work great for getting the odors out of cloth. Most of them is safe to use on colors. Ours hasn't caused any problems and the clothes/towels smell much better now that we've been using that in every load. The active ingredient is hydrogen peroxide, so the other option is to water some of that down and add it to the wash. ~Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I lurve stuff that has been dried on the line, and had a good blow. my wife is a demon for the tumble dryer, we argue quite a lot about that................ Peter vv fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Wednesday, 6 August, 2008 6:20:00 PMRe: Washing funny you mention that, because reebcca is the exact opposite she really doesn't like when we dry stuff on the line, and if she gets a chance she will sneak away to the laudramat, even when she feels bad about it. we use seventh generation mostly. stopped using Ecover awhile back when we found out they started testing on animals heartwerk Aug 5, 2008 11:45 PM @gro ups.com Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Thanks. Jo - Faith Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:10 PM Re: Washing Some of the non-chlorine bleaches, I think ours is from SeventhGeneration, work great for getting the odors out of cloth. Most ofthem is safe to use on colors. Ours hasn't caused any problems andthe clothes/towels smell much better now that we've been using that inevery load. The active ingredient is hydrogen peroxide, so the otheroption is to water some of that down and add it to the wash. ~Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008  I've never had a tumble dryer - no doubt there would be no problems with mustiness if I did. Jo - Peter VV Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:09 PM Re: Washing I lurve stuff that has been dried on the line, and had a good blow. my wife is a demon for the tumble dryer, we argue quite a lot about that................ Peter vv fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Wednesday, 6 August, 2008 6:20:00 PMRe: Washing funny you mention that, because reebcca is the exact opposite she really doesn't like when we dry stuff on the line, and if she gets a chance she will sneak away to the laudramat, even when she feels bad about it. we use seventh generation mostly. stopped using Ecover awhile back when we found out they started testing on animals heartwerk Aug 5, 2008 11:45 PM @gro ups.com Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?JoWith the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 They do tend to fluff up things like towels, so there is lessneed to add a softner, but they absolutely EAT electricity. I prefer the smell of fresh air in my washing. I will concede that towels do sometimes come in like stiff pieces of cardboard if theres no wind and just strong sunshine though! Peter vv jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Wednesday, 6 August, 2008 10:38:52 PMRe: Washing  I've never had a tumble dryer - no doubt there would be no problems with mustiness if I did. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:09 PM Re: Washing I lurve stuff that has been dried on the line, and had a good blow. my wife is a demon for the tumble dryer, we argue quite a lot about that........ ........: ( Peter vv fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.net>@gro ups.comWednesday, 6 August, 2008 6:20:00 PMRe: Washing funny you mention that, because reebcca is the exact opposite she really doesn't like when we dry stuff on the line, and if she gets a chance she will sneak away to the laudramat, even when she feels bad about it. we use seventh generation mostly. stopped using Ecover awhile back when we found out they started testing on animals heartwerk Aug 5, 2008 11:45 PM @gro ups.com Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?JoWith the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 I am curious what is bad about ecover? I googled them and they state clearly they are against animal testing. Is there something I don't know?jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 1:09:39 PMRe: Washing  I used vinegar once. It didn't seem to make it softer, but it smelled okay. Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:23 PM Re: Washing we've used vinegar a couple times as a fabric softener.... it worked "ok" personally, i could use it or not...rebecca wasn't really thrilled with it. sad about ecover Peter VV Aug 6, 2008 4:46 AM @gro ups.com Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 To establish the impact on the aquatic environment Ecover uses aquatic toxicity testing which uses water fleas (Daphnia), as they are present throughout the world in any freshwater system. As far as Ecover is aware there are no alternative tests available that will more accurately measure the impact of cleaning products on the aquatic environment. Ecover far exceeds the EU definition on what constitutes animal testing as Daphnia are invertebrates. The EU definition defines animal testing as the use of vertebrates, past a specified embryonic stage, (or larval stage in the case of fish and amphibians). Ecover also uses a red blood cell test (Invittox RBC) on a non-systematic basis that uses blood from rabbit farming to test the effect of detergents on mucus membranes (to test skin compatibility).This test is used only in those cases where alternative testing methods are unavailable. Given the shortage of human red blood cells Ecover believes the use of human blood would be unethical. However, as alternative testing methods are continuously investigated, Ecover is confident that the RBC test shall become obsolete over the next few years. The Managing Director of Ecover has stated that if blood is needed for this test in the future he will donate his own blood! Ecover continually strives to improve its product range against all of their exacting criteria. To achieve this, Ecover is continually developing and testing new ingredients. Ecover do not perform those tests on animals and employ alternative methods. For those ingredients to be included in a product, ingredient suppliers are forced by international law to prove their innocuity. The introduction of a fixed cut off date at this stage would prevent Ecover from using these new ingredients and advances in their products which are developed in order to further benefit the environment. This is because a fixed cut off date prevents a company from introducing any ingredients that have been developed after this date.Ecover believes that by operating the five year rolling rule, by default, we are upholding our beliefs – we are honest and integral in our approach and will continue to pioneer for the future. The Vegan Society does not permit the use of the five year rolling rule for Trademarked products and so would not permit any ingredients to be sourced under this system. Ecover respects the values of the Vegan Society and its members. Yet, as part of the company’s core values, Ecover owes its customers transparency and will continue to hold on to its principles as it has done so for the past 27 years. Thus, our organizations have mutually decided to disagree on these points of principle and consequently, Ecover shall no longer carry the Vegan Trademark. However the Society is happy to let Ecover use existing stocks of packaging printed with our logo. The Vegan Society assures its members that we will not compromise on our criteria for Trademark registration. We hope that Ecover will continue to develop non-animal test methods and environmentally sound products which will enable us to work together again in the future. Both Ecover and the Vegan Society will continue to work on improving ways to promote respect for our environment and society. A Brief Summary of Facts: Aquatic Toxicity Testing: Ecover undertakes Daphnia testing, as part of aquatic toxicity testing to establish impact on the aquatic environment. This is a recognised test that allows us to monitor our products against one of the key criteria for an ecological product, i.e. its impact on the aquatic environment. Invittox (RBC) Test (Protocol 99): On a non-systematic basis, Ecover has adopted this test as part of its product testing of skin compatibility of detergents. This test is a variation of the red blood cell test (RBC) and allows us to measure the effect of detergents on mucus membranes. The techniques used to conduct this testing can be found on the web site of the European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods, under Protocol 99 (http://ecvam.jrc.it/index.htm). A mere 0.5 milliliters of rabbit blood is used as the source of red blood cells to conduct one complete test of a new product. In 2006 and 2007, Ecover performed 0 tests. Ecover Annual Output In 2006, Ecover’s annual output consisted of 19,625,296 units in liters (l) and 2,587,935 units in kilograms (kg) giving a total of 22,213,231 units produced. Fixed cut off date vs Five year rolling rule Some companies operate to a fixed cut off date for ingredients which means none of the ingredients they use have been tested on animals after a certain date. The companies are free to choose that date and may have different dates for different products. Other companies choose to use the five year rolling rule which means none of their ingredients used in a new product will have been tested on animals in the previous five years. However this is a continually moving date for new product development. Peter vv Heather Farlow <farjoy2 Sent: Friday, 8 August, 2008 2:50:06 AMRe: Washing I am curious what is bad about ecover? I googled them and they state clearly they are against animal testing. Is there something I don't know? jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, August 6, 2008 1:09:39 PMRe: Washing  I used vinegar once. It didn't seem to make it softer, but it smelled okay. Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:23 PM Re: Washing we've used vinegar a couple times as a fabric softener.... it worked "ok" personally, i could use it or not...rebecca wasn't really thrilled with it. sad about ecover Peter VV Aug 6, 2008 4:46 AM @gro ups.com Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008  Ecover use a five year rolling polciy for animal testing. Jo - Heather Farlow Friday, August 08, 2008 2:50 AM Re: Washing I am curious what is bad about ecover? I googled them and they state clearly they are against animal testing. Is there something I don't know? jo <jo.heartwork > Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 1:09:39 PMRe: Washing  I used vinegar once. It didn't seem to make it softer, but it smelled okay. Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:23 PM Re: Washing we've used vinegar a couple times as a fabric softener.... it worked "ok" personally, i could use it or not...rebecca wasn't really thrilled with it. sad about ecover Peter VV Aug 6, 2008 4:46 AM @gro ups.com Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008  Why do they need to keep testing - do they alter their ingredients often? Jo - Peter VV Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:10 PM Re: Washing To establish the impact on the aquatic environment Ecover uses aquatic toxicity testing which uses water fleas (Daphnia), as they are present throughout the world in any freshwater system. As far as Ecover is aware there are no alternative tests available that will more accurately measure the impact of cleaning products on the aquatic environment. Ecover far exceeds the EU definition on what constitutes animal testing as Daphnia are invertebrates. The EU definition defines animal testing as the use of vertebrates, past a specified embryonic stage, (or larval stage in the case of fish and amphibians). Ecover also uses a red blood cell test (Invittox RBC) on a non-systematic basis that uses blood from rabbit farming to test the effect of detergents on mucus membranes (to test skin compatibility).This test is used only in those cases where alternative testing methods are unavailable. Given the shortage of human red blood cells Ecover believes the use of human blood would be unethical. However, as alternative testing methods are continuously investigated, Ecover is confident that the RBC test shall become obsolete over the next few years. The Managing Director of Ecover has stated that if blood is needed for this test in the future he will donate his own blood! Ecover continually strives to improve its product range against all of their exacting criteria. To achieve this, Ecover is continually developing and testing new ingredients. Ecover do not perform those tests on animals and employ alternative methods. For those ingredients to be included in a product, ingredient suppliers are forced by international law to prove their innocuity. The introduction of a fixed cut off date at this stage would prevent Ecover from using these new ingredients and advances in their products which are developed in order to further benefit the environment. This is because a fixed cut off date prevents a company from introducing any ingredients that have been developed after this date.Ecover believes that by operating the five year rolling rule, by default, we are upholding our beliefs – we are honest and integral in our approach and will continue to pioneer for the future. The Vegan Society does not permit the use of the five year rolling rule for Trademarked products and so would not permit any ingredients to be sourced under this system. Ecover respects the values of the Vegan Society and its members. Yet, as part of the company’s core values, Ecover owes its customers transparency and will continue to hold on to its principles as it has done so for the past 27 years. Thus, our organizations have mutually decided to disagree on these points of principle and consequently, Ecover shall no longer carry the Vegan Trademark. However the Society is happy to let Ecover use existing stocks of packaging printed with our logo. The Vegan Society assures its members that we will not compromise on our criteria for Trademark registration. We hope that Ecover will continue to develop non-animal test methods and environmentally sound products which will enable us to work together again in the future. Both Ecover and the Vegan Society will continue to work on improving ways to promote respect for our environment and society. A Brief Summary of Facts: Aquatic Toxicity Testing: Ecover undertakes Daphnia testing, as part of aquatic toxicity testing to establish impact on the aquatic environment. This is a recognised test that allows us to monitor our products against one of the key criteria for an ecological product, i.e. its impact on the aquatic environment. Invittox (RBC) Test (Protocol 99): On a non-systematic basis, Ecover has adopted this test as part of its product testing of skin compatibility of detergents. This test is a variation of the red blood cell test (RBC) and allows us to measure the effect of detergents on mucus membranes. The techniques used to conduct this testing can be found on the web site of the European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods, under Protocol 99 (http://ecvam.jrc.it/index.htm). A mere 0.5 milliliters of rabbit blood is used as the source of red blood cells to conduct one complete test of a new product. In 2006 and 2007, Ecover performed 0 tests. Ecover Annual Output In 2006, Ecover’s annual output consisted of 19,625,296 units in liters (l) and 2,587,935 units in kilograms (kg) giving a total of 22,213,231 units produced. Fixed cut off date vs Five year rolling rule Some companies operate to a fixed cut off date for ingredients which means none of the ingredients they use have been tested on animals after a certain date. The companies are free to choose that date and may have different dates for different products. Other companies choose to use the five year rolling rule which means none of their ingredients used in a new product will have been tested on animals in the previous five years. However this is a continually moving date for new product development. Peter vv Heather Farlow <farjoy2 > Sent: Friday, 8 August, 2008 2:50:06 AMRe: Washing I am curious what is bad about ecover? I googled them and they state clearly they are against animal testing. Is there something I don't know? jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, August 6, 2008 1:09:39 PMRe: Washing  I used vinegar once. It didn't seem to make it softer, but it smelled okay. Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:23 PM Re: Washing we've used vinegar a couple times as a fabric softener.... it worked "ok" personally, i could use it or not...rebecca wasn't really thrilled with it. sad about ecover Peter VV Aug 6, 2008 4:46 AM @gro ups.com Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Good question, why not send them an e-mail and ask? let us know of the reply? Peter vv jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork Sent: Sunday, 10 August, 2008 10:58:02 PMRe: Washing  Why do they need to keep testing - do they alter their ingredients often? Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:10 PM Re: Washing To establish the impact on the aquatic environment Ecover uses aquatic toxicity testing which uses water fleas (Daphnia), as they are present throughout the world in any freshwater system. As far as Ecover is aware there are no alternative tests available that will more accurately measure the impact of cleaning products on the aquatic environment. Ecover far exceeds the EU definition on what constitutes animal testing as Daphnia are invertebrates. The EU definition defines animal testing as the use of vertebrates, past a specified embryonic stage, (or larval stage in the case of fish and amphibians). Ecover also uses a red blood cell test (Invittox RBC) on a non-systematic basis that uses blood from rabbit farming to test the effect of detergents on mucus membranes (to test skin compatibility) .This test is used only in those cases where alternative testing methods are unavailable. Given the shortage of human red blood cells Ecover believes the use of human blood would be unethical. However, as alternative testing methods are continuously investigated, Ecover is confident that the RBC test shall become obsolete over the next few years. The Managing Director of Ecover has stated that if blood is needed for this test in the future he will donate his own blood! Ecover continually strives to improve its product range against all of their exacting criteria. To achieve this, Ecover is continually developing and testing new ingredients. Ecover do not perform those tests on animals and employ alternative methods. For those ingredients to be included in a product, ingredient suppliers are forced by international law to prove their innocuity. The introduction of a fixed cut off date at this stage would prevent Ecover from using these new ingredients and advances in their products which are developed in order to further benefit the environment. This is because a fixed cut off date prevents a company from introducing any ingredients that have been developed after this date.Ecover believes that by operating the five year rolling rule, by default, we are upholding our beliefs – we are honest and integral in our approach and will continue to pioneer for the future. The Vegan Society does not permit the use of the five year rolling rule for Trademarked products and so would not permit any ingredients to be sourced under this system. Ecover respects the values of the Vegan Society and its members. Yet, as part of the company’s core values, Ecover owes its customers transparency and will continue to hold on to its principles as it has done so for the past 27 years. Thus, our organizations have mutually decided to disagree on these points of principle and consequently, Ecover shall no longer carry the Vegan Trademark. However the Society is happy to let Ecover use existing stocks of packaging printed with our logo. The Vegan Society assures its members that we will not compromise on our criteria for Trademark registration. We hope that Ecover will continue to develop non-animal test methods and environmentally sound products which will enable us to work together again in the future. Both Ecover and the Vegan Society will continue to work on improving ways to promote respect for our environment and society. A Brief Summary of Facts: Aquatic Toxicity Testing: Ecover undertakes Daphnia testing, as part of aquatic toxicity testing to establish impact on the aquatic environment. This is a recognised test that allows us to monitor our products against one of the key criteria for an ecological product, i.e. its impact on the aquatic environment. Invittox (RBC) Test (Protocol 99): On a non-systematic basis, Ecover has adopted this test as part of its product testing of skin compatibility of detergents. This test is a variation of the red blood cell test (RBC) and allows us to measure the effect of detergents on mucus membranes. The techniques used to conduct this testing can be found on the web site of the European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods, under Protocol 99 (http://ecvam. jrc.it/index. htm). A mere 0.5 milliliters of rabbit blood is used as the source of red blood cells to conduct one complete test of a new product. In 2006 and 2007, Ecover performed 0 tests. Ecover Annual Output In 2006, Ecover’s annual output consisted of 19,625,296 units in liters (l) and 2,587,935 units in kilograms (kg) giving a total of 22,213,231 units produced. Fixed cut off date vs Five year rolling rule Some companies operate to a fixed cut off date for ingredients which means none of the ingredients they use have been tested on animals after a certain date. The companies are free to choose that date and may have different dates for different products. Other companies choose to use the five year rolling rule which means none of their ingredients used in a new product will have been tested on animals in the previous five years. However this is a continually moving date for new product development. Peter vv Heather Farlow <farjoy2 >@gro ups.comFriday, 8 August, 2008 2:50:06 AMRe: Washing I am curious what is bad about ecover? I googled them and they state clearly they are against animal testing. Is there something I don't know? jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, August 6, 2008 1:09:39 PMRe: Washing  I used vinegar once. It didn't seem to make it softer, but it smelled okay. Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:23 PM Re: Washing we've used vinegar a couple times as a fabric softener.... it worked "ok" personally, i could use it or not...rebecca wasn't really thrilled with it. sad about ecover Peter VV Aug 6, 2008 4:46 AM @gro ups.com Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008  I don't use it now, so I won't bother to email them. Just seems daft when you already have good washing up liquids to keep on changing them,especially if you are claiming to be eco friendly, etc. Jo - Peter VV Monday, August 11, 2008 7:51 AM Re: Washing Good question, why not send them an e-mail and ask? let us know of the reply? Peter vv jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork > Sent: Sunday, 10 August, 2008 10:58:02 PMRe: Washing  Why do they need to keep testing - do they alter their ingredients often? Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:10 PM Re: Washing To establish the impact on the aquatic environment Ecover uses aquatic toxicity testing which uses water fleas (Daphnia), as they are present throughout the world in any freshwater system. As far as Ecover is aware there are no alternative tests available that will more accurately measure the impact of cleaning products on the aquatic environment. Ecover far exceeds the EU definition on what constitutes animal testing as Daphnia are invertebrates. The EU definition defines animal testing as the use of vertebrates, past a specified embryonic stage, (or larval stage in the case of fish and amphibians). Ecover also uses a red blood cell test (Invittox RBC) on a non-systematic basis that uses blood from rabbit farming to test the effect of detergents on mucus membranes (to test skin compatibility) .This test is used only in those cases where alternative testing methods are unavailable. Given the shortage of human red blood cells Ecover believes the use of human blood would be unethical. However, as alternative testing methods are continuously investigated, Ecover is confident that the RBC test shall become obsolete over the next few years. The Managing Director of Ecover has stated that if blood is needed for this test in the future he will donate his own blood! Ecover continually strives to improve its product range against all of their exacting criteria. To achieve this, Ecover is continually developing and testing new ingredients. Ecover do not perform those tests on animals and employ alternative methods. For those ingredients to be included in a product, ingredient suppliers are forced by international law to prove their innocuity. The introduction of a fixed cut off date at this stage would prevent Ecover from using these new ingredients and advances in their products which are developed in order to further benefit the environment. This is because a fixed cut off date prevents a company from introducing any ingredients that have been developed after this date.Ecover believes that by operating the five year rolling rule, by default, we are upholding our beliefs – we are honest and integral in our approach and will continue to pioneer for the future. The Vegan Society does not permit the use of the five year rolling rule for Trademarked products and so would not permit any ingredients to be sourced under this system. Ecover respects the values of the Vegan Society and its members. Yet, as part of the company’s core values, Ecover owes its customers transparency and will continue to hold on to its principles as it has done so for the past 27 years. Thus, our organizations have mutually decided to disagree on these points of principle and consequently, Ecover shall no longer carry the Vegan Trademark. However the Society is happy to let Ecover use existing stocks of packaging printed with our logo. The Vegan Society assures its members that we will not compromise on our criteria for Trademark registration. We hope that Ecover will continue to develop non-animal test methods and environmentally sound products which will enable us to work together again in the future. Both Ecover and the Vegan Society will continue to work on improving ways to promote respect for our environment and society. A Brief Summary of Facts: Aquatic Toxicity Testing: Ecover undertakes Daphnia testing, as part of aquatic toxicity testing to establish impact on the aquatic environment. This is a recognised test that allows us to monitor our products against one of the key criteria for an ecological product, i.e. its impact on the aquatic environment. Invittox (RBC) Test (Protocol 99): On a non-systematic basis, Ecover has adopted this test as part of its product testing of skin compatibility of detergents. This test is a variation of the red blood cell test (RBC) and allows us to measure the effect of detergents on mucus membranes. The techniques used to conduct this testing can be found on the web site of the European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods, under Protocol 99 (http://ecvam. jrc.it/index. htm). A mere 0.5 milliliters of rabbit blood is used as the source of red blood cells to conduct one complete test of a new product. In 2006 and 2007, Ecover performed 0 tests. Ecover Annual Output In 2006, Ecover’s annual output consisted of 19,625,296 units in liters (l) and 2,587,935 units in kilograms (kg) giving a total of 22,213,231 units produced. Fixed cut off date vs Five year rolling rule Some companies operate to a fixed cut off date for ingredients which means none of the ingredients they use have been tested on animals after a certain date. The companies are free to choose that date and may have different dates for different products. Other companies choose to use the five year rolling rule which means none of their ingredients used in a new product will have been tested on animals in the previous five years. However this is a continually moving date for new product development. Peter vv Heather Farlow <farjoy2 >@gro ups.comFriday, 8 August, 2008 2:50:06 AMRe: Washing I am curious what is bad about ecover? I googled them and they state clearly they are against animal testing. Is there something I don't know? jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, August 6, 2008 1:09:39 PMRe: Washing  I used vinegar once. It didn't seem to make it softer, but it smelled okay. Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:23 PM Re: Washing we've used vinegar a couple times as a fabric softener.... it worked "ok" personally, i could use it or not...rebecca wasn't really thrilled with it. sad about ecover Peter VV Aug 6, 2008 4:46 AM @gro ups.com Re: Washing I am guilty of still using ecover. Have you tried using some essential oil in the softner drawer for the rinse wash? Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 6 August, 2008 7:45:25 AM Washing What products do you use to wash your clothes etc.? I am interested because from time to time my towels smell a little musty after washing. I know it is best to dry them outside, but we have so many birds in the garden that this would not be practical.Can anyone recommend a product that will keep them smelling fresh?Jo Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 I love the word " daft. " We should use that more on this side of the Atlantic. faith , " jo.heartwork " <jo.heartwork wrote: > > I don't use it now, so I won't bother to email them. Just seems daft when you already have good washing up liquids to keep on changing them,especially if you are claiming to be eco friendly, etc. > > Jo > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Hi Faith It's a word I use quite often. Peter (VV) often takes the mickey out of me using old-fashioned words! Jo , " Faith " <tigerpainter wrote: > > I love the word " daft. " We should use that more on this side of the > Atlantic. > > faith > > > > , " jo.heartwork " <jo.heartwork@> > wrote: > > > > I don't use it now, so I won't bother to email them. Just seems > daft when you already have good washing up liquids to keep on changing > them,especially if you are claiming to be eco friendly, etc. > > > > Jo > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Aw c,mon granma. I`m not that much younger than you realy. Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 7:50:24 AM Re: Washing Hi FaithIt's a word I use quite often. Peter (VV) often takes the mickey out of me using old-fashioned words!Jo@gro ups.com, "Faith" <tigerpainter@ ...> wrote:>> I love the word "daft." We should use that more on this side of the> Atlantic.> > faith> > > > @gro ups.com, "jo.heartwork" <jo.heartwork@ >> wrote:> >> > I don't use it now, so I won't bother to email them. Just seems> daft when you already have good washing up liquids to keep on changing> them,especially if you are claiming to be eco friendly, etc.> > > > Jo> >>Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008  A bit younger :-) Wasn't it you who laughed at 'crikey'? I quitelike 'crikey' even though it is old fashioned. Jo - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:33 PM Re: Re: Washing Aw c,mon granma. I`m not that much younger than you realy. Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 7:50:24 AM Re: Washing Hi FaithIt's a word I use quite often. Peter (VV) often takes the mickey out of me using old-fashioned words!Jo@gro ups.com, "Faith" <tigerpainter@ ...> wrote:>> I love the word "daft." We should use that more on this side of the> Atlantic.> > faith> > > > @gro ups.com, "jo.heartwork" <jo.heartwork@ >> wrote:> >> > I don't use it now, so I won't bother to email them. Just seems> daft when you already have good washing up liquids to keep on changing> them,especially if you are claiming to be eco friendly, etc.> > > > Jo> >>Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Felicitations Jo, Tis the 47 th anniverssary of my birth next month. I am indeed catching you up. Gadzooks. Peter vv jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 7:59:58 PMRe: Re: Washing  A bit younger :-) Wasn't it you who laughed at 'crikey'? I quitelike 'crikey' even though it is old fashioned. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:33 PM Re: Re: Washing Aw c,mon granma. I`m not that much younger than you realy. Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 13 August, 2008 7:50:24 AM Re: Washing Hi FaithIt's a word I use quite often. Peter (VV) often takes the mickey out of me using old-fashioned words!Jo@gro ups.com, "Faith" <tigerpainter@ ...> wrote:>> I love the word "daft." We should use that more on this side of the> Atlantic.> > faith> > > > @gro ups.com, "jo.heartwork" <jo.heartwork@ >> wrote:> >> > I don't use it now, so I won't bother to email them. Just seems> daft when you already have good washing up liquids to keep on changing> them,especially if you are claiming to be eco friendly, etc.> > > > Jo> >>Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008  You still have a while before you retire. I could have retired in February. Felicitations young whippersnapper. Jo - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:42 PM Re: Re: Washing Felicitations Jo, Tis the 47 th anniverssary of my birth next month. I am indeed catching you up. Gadzooks. Peter vv jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 7:59:58 PMRe: Re: Washing  A bit younger :-) Wasn't it you who laughed at 'crikey'? I quitelike 'crikey' even though it is old fashioned. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:33 PM Re: Re: Washing Aw c,mon granma. I`m not that much younger than you realy. Peter vv heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 13 August, 2008 7:50:24 AM Re: Washing Hi FaithIt's a word I use quite often. Peter (VV) often takes the mickey out of me using old-fashioned words!Jo@gro ups.com, "Faith" <tigerpainter@ ...> wrote:>> I love the word "daft." We should use that more on this side of the> Atlantic.> > faith> > > > @gro ups.com, "jo.heartwork" <jo.heartwork@ >> wrote:> >> > I don't use it now, so I won't bother to email them. Just seems> daft when you already have good washing up liquids to keep on changing> them,especially if you are claiming to be eco friendly, etc.> > > > Jo> >>Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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