Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008  Hi Fraggle Maybe so - but surely the whole idea of the Behring migrations is based on the fundamental premise that the people back then were too thick to build decent boats! It's simply a theory that has existed since the times they assumed that everyone from the past was a complete idiot, and DNA wasn't even known about. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008  Alright Mr Fraggle If we're going to play a game of "I know more than you do *sticking tongue out*", then I'm going to have to insist that you play by your own rules... what's your source? BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008  Hi Fraggle Small additional PS... Haploid X is a breed of potato, not a DNA strand! BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008  Hi Fraggle Right - found the information from an up to date source. It's Haplogroup X, not Haploid X. It's the fifth, and smallest strand of mDNA so far discovered in NAs, being found in around 6 to 10 tribes in Eastern America, and around 3% of the total NA population. The only other peoples who share that mDNA are Western Europeans, and one tribe in Siberia (the Altaians). The ones that you were struggling to find beginning with B were "basque", who are largely based in Spain and surrounding areas. The reason the basque stand out is because they were a later discovery than other Europeans. Also worth noting that the mDNA of tha Altaians is incredibly complex, showing a very healthy mix of Eastern and Western haplogroups. Haplogroup X is one of 8 haplogroups in their DNA which originates from Western Europe, compared to four from the East. The Altaian people migrated to Siberia from China in the 19th century, but before that their history is unknown. There are two current theories. One is that the Haplogroup X people migrated across Asia, not interbreeding with anyone from Asia except in a fairly hefty detour to China, before crossing the Behring land bridge, and then travelling the entire breadth of America without interbreeding with any of the native tribes. The other is that they took boats from Western Europe and settled on the West Coast of America, while the one tribe from China somehow acquired the mDNA in an unconnected event. If we get out of the mindset of assuming that our ancestors were idiots, and recognise that current theory is very happy with the idea that haplogroup B made it to America by boat from Japan, then the latter is by far the most sensible option, and occam's razor would seem to apply. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 true but, traveling from france in a coracle does seem a bit much tis all, along ice flows atlantic ocean ain't exactly a happy lil pond *shrug* Peter Aug 13, 2008 3:10 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Maybe so - but surely the whole idea of the Behring migrations is based on the fundamental premise that the people back then were too thick to build decent boats! It's simply a theory that has existed since the times they assumed that everyone from the past was a complete idiot, and DNA wasn't even known about. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 haploid means a cell or the like with half the number of normal chromosomes, 23 in humans instead of 46...so like gametes.. or, in this case mitochondria... the whole genetic thing about amerindians, first nations folks having european genetic markers comes from this. they mapped the mitochondrial haploids of a large section of various native tribes, and almost all have haploid groups abcd, a few have haploid group X, which was thought non-existant in asian groups, although 4% of europeans have this haploid grouping then they discovered a couple siberian peoples that had haploid x in their make up since mitochondrial dna onlly get passed down from the mother, it leaves a clearer picture for many studies. Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:40 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Small additional PS... Haploid X is a breed of potato, not a DNA strand! BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 nah, it wasn't the basques..it was another group, i can't recall. guess if i wasn't lazy i'd g trolling for it and, went from western europe to to western north america? i assume you meant eastern north america.... otherwise, that would be one heck of a boat ride! Peter Aug 14, 2008 12:16 AM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Right - found the information from an up to date source. It's Haplogroup X, not Haploid X. It's the fifth, and smallest strand of mDNA so far discovered in NAs, being found in around 6 to 10 tribes in Eastern America, and around 3% of the total NA population. The only other peoples who share that mDNA are Western Europeans, and one tribe in Siberia (the Altaians). The ones that you were struggling to find beginning with B were "basque", who are largely based in Spain and surrounding areas. The reason the basque stand out is because they were a later discovery than other Europeans. Also worth noting that the mDNA of tha Altaians is incredibly complex, showing a very healthy mix of Eastern and Western haplogroups. Haplogroup X is one of 8 haplogroups in their DNA which originates from Western Europe, compared to four from the East. The Altaian people migrated to Siberia from China in the 19th century, but before that their history is unknown. There are two current theories. One is that the Haplogroup X people migrated across Asia, not interbreeding with anyone from Asia except in a fairly hefty detour to China, before crossing the Behring land bridge, and then travelling the entire breadth of America without interbreeding with any of the native tribes. The other is that they took boats from Western Europe and settled on the West Coast of America, while the one tribe from China somehow acquired the mDNA in an unconnected event. If we get out of the mindset of assuming that our ancestors were idiots, and recognise that current theory is very happy with the idea that haplogroup B made it to America by boat from Japan, then the latter is by far the most sensible option, and occam's razor would seem to apply. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008  Hi Fraggle If you travel round the top way, Scotland, Orkneys, Iceland, Greenland, America, you're never very far from land... particularly before the 1930s when a whole bunch of islands sank! BB Peter - fraggle Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:36 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history true but, traveling from france in a coracle does seem a bit much tis all, along ice flows atlantic ocean ain't exactly a happy lil pond *shrug* Peter Aug 13, 2008 3:10 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Maybe so - but surely the whole idea of the Behring migrations is based on the fundamental premise that the people back then were too thick to build decent boats! It's simply a theory that has existed since the times they assumed that everyone from the past was a complete idiot, and DNA wasn't even known about. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008  Hi Fraggle Yep - that is the meaning of haploid... but humans aren't haploid. Apparently things like ants are, but humans are diploid. The only time we have haploid DNA is before the egg and sperm join together (so Katy reliably informs me!!!!) BB Peter - fraggle Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:48 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history haploid means a cell or the like with half the number of normal chromosomes, 23 in humans instead of 46...so like gametes.. or, in this case mitochondria... the whole genetic thing about amerindians, first nations folks having european genetic markers comes from this. they mapped the mitochondrial haploids of a large section of various native tribes, and almost all have haploid groups abcd, a few have haploid group X, which was thought non-existant in asian groups, although 4% of europeans have this haploid grouping then they discovered a couple siberian peoples that had haploid x in their make up since mitochondrial dna onlly get passed down from the mother, it leaves a clearer picture for many studies. Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:40 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Small additional PS... Haploid X is a breed of potato, not a DNA strand! BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008  Hi Fraggle I did mean East coast of America... thought I'd changed that before sending (having realised I'd got East and West muddled), but obviously didn't!!!! BB Peter - fraggle Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:53 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history nah, it wasn't the basques..it was another group, i can't recall. guess if i wasn't lazy i'd g trolling for it and, went from western europe to to western north america? i assume you meant eastern north america.... otherwise, that would be one heck of a boat ride! Peter Aug 14, 2008 12:16 AM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Right - found the information from an up to date source. It's Haplogroup X, not Haploid X. It's the fifth, and smallest strand of mDNA so far discovered in NAs, being found in around 6 to 10 tribes in Eastern America, and around 3% of the total NA population. The only other peoples who share that mDNA are Western Europeans, and one tribe in Siberia (the Altaians). The ones that you were struggling to find beginning with B were "basque", who are largely based in Spain and surrounding areas. The reason the basque stand out is because they were a later discovery than other Europeans. Also worth noting that the mDNA of tha Altaians is incredibly complex, showing a very healthy mix of Eastern and Western haplogroups. Haplogroup X is one of 8 haplogroups in their DNA which originates from Western Europe, compared to four from the East. The Altaian people migrated to Siberia from China in the 19th century, but before that their history is unknown. There are two current theories. One is that the Haplogroup X people migrated across Asia, not interbreeding with anyone from Asia except in a fairly hefty detour to China, before crossing the Behring land bridge, and then travelling the entire breadth of America without interbreeding with any of the native tribes. The other is that they took boats from Western Europe and settled on the West Coast of America, while the one tribe from China somehow acquired the mDNA in an unconnected event. If we get out of the mindset of assuming that our ancestors were idiots, and recognise that current theory is very happy with the idea that haplogroup B made it to America by boat from Japan, then the latter is by far the most sensible option, and occam's razor would seem to apply. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Anyone following this? There will be a test later, so pay attention! Peter vv Peter <metalscarab Sent: Thursday, 14 August, 2008 7:06:05 PMRe: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Yep - that is the meaning of haploid... but humans aren't haploid. Apparently things like ants are, but humans are diploid. The only time we have haploid DNA is before the egg and sperm join together (so Katy reliably informs me!!!!) BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:48 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history haploid means a cell or the like with half the number of normal chromosomes, 23 in humans instead of 46...so like gametes.. or, in this case mitochondria. .. the whole genetic thing about amerindians, first nations folks having european genetic markers comes from this. they mapped the mitochondrial haploids of a large section of various native tribes, and almost all have haploid groups abcd, a few have haploid group X, which was thought non-existant in asian groups, although 4% of europeans have this haploid grouping then they discovered a couple siberian peoples that had haploid x in their make up since mitochondrial dna onlly get passed down from the mother, it leaves a clearer picture for many studies. Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:40 PM @gro ups.com Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Small additional PS... Haploid X is a breed of potato, not a DNA strand! BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/ links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned... . ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!! !! BB Peter - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Now you`ve shattered my illusions of you being the intelligencia amongst us! dont do it again! that mistake will cost you 2 weeks detention. Peter vv Peter <metalscarab Sent: Thursday, 14 August, 2008 7:07:23 PMRe: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle I did mean East coast of America... thought I'd changed that before sending (having realised I'd got East and West muddled), but obviously didn't!!!! BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:53 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history nah, it wasn't the basques..it was another group, i can't recall. guess if i wasn't lazy i'd g trolling for it and, went from western europe to to western north america? i assume you meant eastern north america.... otherwise, that would be one heck of a boat ride! Peter Aug 14, 2008 12:16 AM @gro ups.com Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Right - found the information from an up to date source. It's Haplogroup X, not Haploid X. It's the fifth, and smallest strand of mDNA so far discovered in NAs, being found in around 6 to 10 tribes in Eastern America, and around 3% of the total NA population. The only other peoples who share that mDNA are Western Europeans, and one tribe in Siberia (the Altaians). The ones that you were struggling to find beginning with B were "basque", who are largely based in Spain and surrounding areas. The reason the basque stand out is because they were a later discovery than other Europeans. Also worth noting that the mDNA of tha Altaians is incredibly complex, showing a very healthy mix of Eastern and Western haplogroups. Haplogroup X is one of 8 haplogroups in their DNA which originates from Western Europe, compared to four from the East. The Altaian people migrated to Siberia from China in the 19th century, but before that their history is unknown. There are two current theories. One is that the Haplogroup X people migrated across Asia, not interbreeding with anyone from Asia except in a fairly hefty detour to China, before crossing the Behring land bridge, and then travelling the entire breadth of America without interbreeding with any of the native tribes. The other is that they took boats from Western Europe and settled on the West Coast of America, while the one tribe from China somehow acquired the mDNA in an unconnected event. If we get out of the mindset of assuming that our ancestors were idiots, and recognise that current theory is very happy with the idea that haplogroup B made it to America by boat from Japan, then the latter is by far the most sensible option, and occam's razor would seem to apply. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/ links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned... . ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!! !! BB Peter - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008  Yep - me - although I'm not keen on the test idea :-) Jo - Peter VV Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:10 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history Anyone following this? There will be a test later, so pay attention! Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Thursday, 14 August, 2008 7:06:05 PMRe: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Yep - that is the meaning of haploid... but humans aren't haploid. Apparently things like ants are, but humans are diploid. The only time we have haploid DNA is before the egg and sperm join together (so Katy reliably informs me!!!!) BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:48 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history haploid means a cell or the like with half the number of normal chromosomes, 23 in humans instead of 46...so like gametes.. or, in this case mitochondria. .. the whole genetic thing about amerindians, first nations folks having european genetic markers comes from this. they mapped the mitochondrial haploids of a large section of various native tribes, and almost all have haploid groups abcd, a few have haploid group X, which was thought non-existant in asian groups, although 4% of europeans have this haploid grouping then they discovered a couple siberian peoples that had haploid x in their make up since mitochondrial dna onlly get passed down from the mother, it leaves a clearer picture for many studies. Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:40 PM @gro ups.com Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Small additional PS... Haploid X is a breed of potato, not a DNA strand! BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/ links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned... . ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!! !! BB Peter - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 but if we are talking 10,000 or plus years ago, wasn't that all under tons of ice? Peter Aug 14, 2008 11:04 AM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle If you travel round the top way, Scotland, Orkneys, Iceland, Greenland, America, you're never very far from land... particularly before the 1930s when a whole bunch of islands sank! BB Peter - fraggle Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:36 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history true but, traveling from france in a coracle does seem a bit much tis all, along ice flows atlantic ocean ain't exactly a happy lil pond *shrug* Peter Aug 13, 2008 3:10 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Maybe so - but surely the whole idea of the Behring migrations is based on the fundamental premise that the people back then were too thick to build decent boats! It's simply a theory that has existed since the times they assumed that everyone from the past was a complete idiot, and DNA wasn't even known about. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 isn't mitochondrail DNA (or mtDNA) haploid as well? i thought that was why it was so useful in certain areas Peter Aug 14, 2008 11:06 AM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Yep - that is the meaning of haploid... but humans aren't haploid. Apparently things like ants are, but humans are diploid. The only time we have haploid DNA is before the egg and sperm join together (so Katy reliably informs me!!!!) BB Peter - fraggle Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:48 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history haploid means a cell or the like with half the number of normal chromosomes, 23 in humans instead of 46...so like gametes.. or, in this case mitochondria... the whole genetic thing about amerindians, first nations folks having european genetic markers comes from this. they mapped the mitochondrial haploids of a large section of various native tribes, and almost all have haploid groups abcd, a few have haploid group X, which was thought non-existant in asian groups, although 4% of europeans have this haploid grouping then they discovered a couple siberian peoples that had haploid x in their make up since mitochondrial dna onlly get passed down from the mother, it leaves a clearer picture for many studies. Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:40 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Small additional PS... Haploid X is a breed of potato, not a DNA strand! BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 well, west coast would have been more interesting! it would certainly turn a lot of anthropolical and archealogical tenets totally on their head if a european raft or coracle was discovered in tera del fuego or some such Peter Aug 14, 2008 11:07 AM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle I did mean East coast of America... thought I'd changed that before sending (having realised I'd got East and West muddled), but obviously didn't!!!! BB Peter - fraggle Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:53 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history nah, it wasn't the basques..it was another group, i can't recall. guess if i wasn't lazy i'd g trolling for it and, went from western europe to to western north america? i assume you meant eastern north america.... otherwise, that would be one heck of a boat ride! Peter Aug 14, 2008 12:16 AM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Right - found the information from an up to date source. It's Haplogroup X, not Haploid X. It's the fifth, and smallest strand of mDNA so far discovered in NAs, being found in around 6 to 10 tribes in Eastern America, and around 3% of the total NA population. The only other peoples who share that mDNA are Western Europeans, and one tribe in Siberia (the Altaians). The ones that you were struggling to find beginning with B were "basque", who are largely based in Spain and surrounding areas. The reason the basque stand out is because they were a later discovery than other Europeans. Also worth noting that the mDNA of tha Altaians is incredibly complex, showing a very healthy mix of Eastern and Western haplogroups. Haplogroup X is one of 8 haplogroups in their DNA which originates from Western Europe, compared to four from the East. The Altaian people migrated to Siberia from China in the 19th century, but before that their history is unknown. There are two current theories. One is that the Haplogroup X people migrated across Asia, not interbreeding with anyone from Asia except in a fairly hefty detour to China, before crossing the Behring land bridge, and then travelling the entire breadth of America without interbreeding with any of the native tribes. The other is that they took boats from Western Europe and settled on the West Coast of America, while the one tribe from China somehow acquired the mDNA in an unconnected event. If we get out of the mindset of assuming that our ancestors were idiots, and recognise that current theory is very happy with the idea that haplogroup B made it to America by boat from Japan, then the latter is by far the most sensible option, and occam's razor would seem to apply. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned.... ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!!!! BB Peter - Peter VV Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 there's plenty of time to rest later there's skipping and hopping and bouncing to be done! ok...unemployment must be getting to me fraggle "jo.heartwork" Aug 14, 2008 1:06 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  He could probably do with a rest for a couple of weeks. Jo - Peter VV Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:12 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history Now you`ve shattered my illusions of you being the intelligencia amongst us! dont do it again! that mistake will cost you 2 weeks detention. Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Thursday, 14 August, 2008 7:07:23 PMRe: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle I did mean East coast of America... thought I'd changed that before sending (having realised I'd got East and West muddled), but obviously didn't!!!! BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:53 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history nah, it wasn't the basques..it was another group, i can't recall. guess if i wasn't lazy i'd g trolling for it and, went from western europe to to western north america? i assume you meant eastern north america.... otherwise, that would be one heck of a boat ride! Peter Aug 14, 2008 12:16 AM @gro ups.com Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Right - found the information from an up to date source. It's Haplogroup X, not Haploid X. It's the fifth, and smallest strand of mDNA so far discovered in NAs, being found in around 6 to 10 tribes in Eastern America, and around 3% of the total NA population. The only other peoples who share that mDNA are Western Europeans, and one tribe in Siberia (the Altaians). The ones that you were struggling to find beginning with B were "basque", who are largely based in Spain and surrounding areas. The reason the basque stand out is because they were a later discovery than other Europeans. Also worth noting that the mDNA of tha Altaians is incredibly complex, showing a very healthy mix of Eastern and Western haplogroups. Haplogroup X is one of 8 haplogroups in their DNA which originates from Western Europe, compared to four from the East. The Altaian people migrated to Siberia from China in the 19th century, but before that their history is unknown. There are two current theories. One is that the Haplogroup X people migrated across Asia, not interbreeding with anyone from Asia except in a fairly hefty detour to China, before crossing the Behring land bridge, and then travelling the entire breadth of America without interbreeding with any of the native tribes. The other is that they took boats from Western Europe and settled on the West Coast of America, while the one tribe from China somehow acquired the mDNA in an unconnected event. If we get out of the mindset of assuming that our ancestors were idiots, and recognise that current theory is very happy with the idea that haplogroup B made it to America by boat from Japan, then the latter is by far the most sensible option, and occam's razor would seem to apply. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/ links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned... . ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!! !! BB Peter - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008  LOl - well if you feel like skipping and hopping and bouncing, then don't let me stop you. Jo - fraggle Friday, August 15, 2008 5:36 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history there's plenty of time to rest later there's skipping and hopping and bouncing to be done! ok...unemployment must be getting to me fraggle "jo.heartwork" Aug 14, 2008 1:06 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history  He could probably do with a rest for a couple of weeks. Jo - Peter VV Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:12 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history Now you`ve shattered my illusions of you being the intelligencia amongst us! dont do it again! that mistake will cost you 2 weeks detention. Peter vv Peter <metalscarab > Sent: Thursday, 14 August, 2008 7:07:23 PMRe: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle I did mean East coast of America... thought I'd changed that before sending (having realised I'd got East and West muddled), but obviously didn't!!!! BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:53 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history nah, it wasn't the basques..it was another group, i can't recall. guess if i wasn't lazy i'd g trolling for it and, went from western europe to to western north america? i assume you meant eastern north america.... otherwise, that would be one heck of a boat ride! Peter Aug 14, 2008 12:16 AM @gro ups.com Re: fraggle and peter... a history  Hi Fraggle Right - found the information from an up to date source. It's Haplogroup X, not Haploid X. It's the fifth, and smallest strand of mDNA so far discovered in NAs, being found in around 6 to 10 tribes in Eastern America, and around 3% of the total NA population. The only other peoples who share that mDNA are Western Europeans, and one tribe in Siberia (the Altaians). The ones that you were struggling to find beginning with B were "basque", who are largely based in Spain and surrounding areas. The reason the basque stand out is because they were a later discovery than other Europeans. Also worth noting that the mDNA of tha Altaians is incredibly complex, showing a very healthy mix of Eastern and Western haplogroups. Haplogroup X is one of 8 haplogroups in their DNA which originates from Western Europe, compared to four from the East. The Altaian people migrated to Siberia from China in the 19th century, but before that their history is unknown. There are two current theories. One is that the Haplogroup X people migrated across Asia, not interbreeding with anyone from Asia except in a fairly hefty detour to China, before crossing the Behring land bridge, and then travelling the entire breadth of America without interbreeding with any of the native tribes. The other is that they took boats from Western Europe and settled on the West Coast of America, while the one tribe from China somehow acquired the mDNA in an unconnected event. If we get out of the mindset of assuming that our ancestors were idiots, and recognise that current theory is very happy with the idea that haplogroup B made it to America by boat from Japan, then the latter is by far the most sensible option, and occam's razor would seem to apply. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:59 PM Re: fraggle and peter... a history ah, the mitchondrial haploid X thing old research by now.... thats the thing about genetic research, its like a new computer, by the time you publish it (or buy a new one in the case of computers), its basically already obsolete... they found X in the Altaian people of southern siberian, and another group near by...begins with a B, i want to say Bakai, but hat's not it..something like that tho anywho, Haploid X was found in a couple different "turkic" descended folks in southern siberia, so, throws it right back into the migrations waves across the bering Peter Aug 13, 2008 2:19 PM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Fraggle Check out New Scientist, 17 October 1998. BB Peter - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:37 PM Re: Coffee... a history alright there mr peter, you brought this up a long time ago..about native americans coming from europe and all pleasey please can ya post the facts/footnotes/ links to this? genetic analysis has always shown from everything i've ever seen that the first nations are genetically derived from asians, be it eastern asia or the pacific rim Peter Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM @gro ups.com Re: Coffee... a history  Hi Peter Well, depends on which story you believe. Vespucci was actually a navigator on one of the early vessels that chanced upon the islands off the American continent... however, the idea that America was named after him was invented by a bunch of monks in the Alsace region of France in about 1525 (headed by "Mercator", the guy who drew all the maps) - they drew the "Mappa Mundi", and labelled the new continent "America". In a footnote, they suggested that it may have been named after Amerigo Vespucci, but they didn't seem very sure. I'm quite astonished, with your love of all things Welsh, that you haven't grabbed onto the suggestion that America was named after Richard Ap Merick, a Welshman who was the clerk of Bristol that handed Cabot the money to make his first voyage. Personally, I quite like the idea that it was named after the Manichean name for the Morning Star "Merica", which rose to the West, and marked the land to the West where souls go when people die. But who actually "discovered" America as far as Europeans were concerned... . ignoring those pesky "Native Americans", who seem to have come from Europe in about 10,000 BC, there's the Irish monks who claim to have found it in the 5th century, then the Vikings who discovered "Vinland" (and even had a bishop of Vinland recognised by the Vatican in the 11th century!), then Henry Sinclair discovered it for Scotland in 1398, then Cristobal Colon in the early 1490s discovered it for Italy (I gather that he later changed his name and became a film producer ;-)). John Cabot followed on a couple of years later, discovering it for England. I's amazing just how many times one place can be discovered!! !! BB Peter - Peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:29 PM Re: Coffee... a history We discovered America? I thought it was Mr Vespuci? I dont think he was from these shores? Peter vv Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, 13 August, 2008 8:42:11 AM Coffee... a history OK, I take it back - Coffee was around Europe long before we officially discovered America! http://www.teluspla net.net/public/ coffee/history. htm BB PeterSend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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