Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

December 30, 2008

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing " food for the entire village " .

I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non- " factory " animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and " animal liberation " becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?

I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most " animal lovers " , who differentiate between their " love " for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly " love our neighbors " consisting of our animal friends.

Oh, and I read that Wright is " vegetarian " , but " bends the rules " when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

December 30, 2008

i've heard of lots of people that "bend" the rules when they travel.

i do think tho, that a lot of these shows aren't a very good representation of certain areas. a lot of these shows on TV, or the like, show wedding events or a celebration or whatever. plus, this person is a "guest"...look, tv cameras, lets bring it all out!

while i'm sure most ppl are far from vegan, a lot of these cultures have a basis in vegetarianism, not only for religious reasons, but because, well, poverty. meat costs a pretty penny. for the most part they are looking at diet high in vegetables, fruit and grain. tho of course, this is changing world-wide with the advent of globilization and ppl wanting a more "western" diet

as for my views on it. i personally don't think of it as any different if someone boils a cat, then if someone slits a chickens throat. both are murder. at the same time, i've certainly watched enough of the "murder" chef/travel programs (anthony bourdain anyone?), if only to go repeatedly "oh, thats f***** up"

fraggle

Blake Wilson Dec 30, 2008 8:13 AM Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I read that Wright is "vegetarian", but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

"Will we ever get to the point that we realize that we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty just so we can have nice running shoes?"

December 30, 2008

If he bends the rules as you put it, then his beliefs dont ammount to a steaming pile of crap in my opinion.

We had a programme over here Sunday night "Top Gear" special where they traveled through Vietnam, and at one point ( probably just for the sake of the progeramme ) ordered snake, and were presented with its still beating heart , and drank vodka with its blood in. Absolute idiots.

Peter vv

Blake Wilson <mbw Sent: Tuesday, 30 December, 2008 4:13:06 PM Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/ annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth

in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I

read that Wright is "vegetarian", but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

December 30, 2008

i've enjoyed Ian Wright the times i've seen him on Globe Trekker......

Peter VV Dec 30, 2008 12:21 PM Re: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

If he bends the rules as you put it, then his beliefs dont ammount to a steaming pile of crap in my opinion.

We had a programme over here Sunday night "Top Gear" special where they traveled through Vietnam, and at one point ( probably just for the sake of the progeramme ) ordered snake, and were presented with its still beating heart , and drank vodka with its blood in. Absolute idiots.

Peter vv

Blake Wilson <mbw Sent: Tuesday, 30 December, 2008 4:13:06 PM Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/ annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I read that Wright is "vegetarian", but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

"Will we ever get to the point that we realize that we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty just so we can have nice running shoes?"

December 30, 2008

I don't think there is any difference between animals.

I watched Joanna Lumley's travel to the Arctic to see the Northern Lights (lovely programme). She showed all the local customs in Norway, but didn't eat any animal food, and wore a fake fur coat to keep warm. It would seem therefore that it is possible to do a travel programme which reports of the local customs (whatever they are) without partaking.

Jo

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Blake Wilson

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 4:13 PM

Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I read that Wright is "vegetarian", but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

December 30, 2008

ï»¿

Jeremy Clarkson does everything for shock value and hates vegetarians anyway. He is similar to Gordon Ramsay - and therefore not worth taking any notice of. Someday he will grow up, maybe!

Jo

-

Peter VV

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:21 PM

Re: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

If he bends the rules as you put it, then his beliefs dont ammount to a steaming pile of crap in my opinion.

We had a programme over here Sunday night "Top Gear" special where they traveled through Vietnam, and at one point ( probably just for the sake of the progeramme ) ordered snake, and were presented with its still beating heart , and drank vodka with its blood in. Absolute idiots.

Peter vv

Blake Wilson <mbw Sent: Tuesday, 30 December, 2008 4:13:06 PM Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/ annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I read that Wright is "vegetarian", but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

December 30, 2008

A lot of fans of Top Gear have said that the programme is a shadow of its former self. Mr Clarkson is stuck in the 1980`s in fashion, humour and opinions. He has nothing to offer.

Peter vv

jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork Sent: Tuesday, 30 December, 2008 5:43:58 PMRe: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

ï»¿ Jeremy Clarkson does everything for shock value and hates vegetarians anyway. He is similar to Gordon Ramsay - and therefore not worth taking any notice of. Someday he will grow up, maybe!

Jo

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:21 PM

Re: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

If he bends the rules as you put it, then his beliefs dont ammount to a steaming pile of crap in my opinion.

We had a programme over here Sunday night "Top Gear" special where they traveled through Vietnam, and at one point ( probably just for the sake of the progeramme ) ordered snake, and were presented with its still beating heart , and drank vodka with its blood in. Absolute idiots.

Peter vv

Blake Wilson <mbw@gro ups.comTuesday, 30 December, 2008 4:13:06 PM Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/ annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth

in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I

read that Wright is "vegetarian" , but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

December 30, 2008

ï»¿

It is not as good as it used to be, but a long running programme like that is bound to run out of ideas. I still find some of them amusing - as is Jeremy Clarkson sometimes - but it doesn't make him a nice chap.

Jo

-

Peter VV

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:57 PM

Re: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

A lot of fans of Top Gear have said that the programme is a shadow of its former self. Mr Clarkson is stuck in the 1980`s in fashion, humour and opinions. He has nothing to offer.

Peter vv

jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork > Sent: Tuesday, 30 December, 2008 5:43:58 PMRe: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

ï»¿ Jeremy Clarkson does everything for shock value and hates vegetarians anyway. He is similar to Gordon Ramsay - and therefore not worth taking any notice of. Someday he will grow up, maybe!

Jo

-

Peter VV

@gro ups.com

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:21 PM

Re: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

If he bends the rules as you put it, then his beliefs dont ammount to a steaming pile of crap in my opinion.

We had a programme over here Sunday night "Top Gear" special where they traveled through Vietnam, and at one point ( probably just for the sake of the progeramme ) ordered snake, and were presented with its still beating heart , and drank vodka with its blood in. Absolute idiots.

Peter vv

Blake Wilson <mbw@gro ups.comTuesday, 30 December, 2008 4:13:06 PM Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/ annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I read that Wright is "vegetarian" , but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

December 30, 2008

ï»¿

i returned recently from laos... once off the beaten track nearly all cooked foods were flavored with anchovy sauce... same as in thailand...

in singapore one time i ordered a vege soup, when i complained it had meat in it... they explained ..." the meat is just for flavor!"

its hard in vegetable loving poor countries too... where even insects are a fried delicacy ....

lovelife...

colin sky

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fraggle

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:55 AM

Re: Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

i've heard of lots of people that "bend" the rules when they travel.

i do think tho, that a lot of these shows aren't a very good representation of certain areas. a lot of these shows on TV, or the like, show wedding events or a celebration or whatever. plus, this person is a "guest"...look, tv cameras, lets bring it all out!

while i'm sure most ppl are far from vegan, a lot of these cultures have a basis in vegetarianism, not only for religious reasons, but because, well, poverty. meat costs a pretty penny. for the most part they are looking at diet high in vegetables, fruit and grain. tho of course, this is changing world-wide with the advent of globilization and ppl wanting a more "western" diet

as for my views on it. i personally don't think of it as any different if someone boils a cat, then if someone slits a chickens throat. both are murder. at the same time, i've certainly watched enough of the "murder" chef/travel programs (anthony bourdain anyone?), if only to go repeatedly "oh, thats f***** up"

fraggle

Blake Wilson Dec 30, 2008 8:13 AM Cambodia and Cultural Animal Abuse

Just watched the Lonely Planet's DVD guide to Cambodia last night with entertaining/annoying presenter Ian Wright. Good lord. I got to see two cows, 1 pig, several chickens, a duck, a dog, and a BAT get slaughtered. The bat was taken out a cage at a restaurant, neck slit, and it's blood drained into a glass for Wright to drink. He then ate a soup made of the bat. The cows, duck, some of the chickens, and dog were killed as part of a marriage ceremony out in the hill country. And then eaten, providing "food for the entire village". I'd lke to know what folks think about this kind of non-Western, non-"factory" animal abuse. My wife thought it was wretched; I say it's no different than the West, where usually someone else does the killing for our various cultural forms of animal sacrifice, meaning the turkey at Thanksgiving is no different than the dog at the wedding. Or do we make exceptions for poor people living hand to mouth in other cultures, even when they are doing this sort of thing to animals? If so, this is moral relativism that excuses their behavior at the expense of the lives of the animals, and "animal liberation" becomes a pliable term that bends to the whim of the particular situation, culture, or race of the persons involved. In other words, can I, as a well fed middle class American, criticize the participants of a Cambodian wedding ceremony who wrung the neck of puppy and ate it? Or is my disgust just a product of cultural bias?I find there to be a huge hypocrisy in most "animal lovers", who differentiate between their "love" for cats and dogs yet tuck into a steak or chicken breast at mealtimes. A major part of the cognitive dissonance we experience about loving/eating animals stems from the cultural divide between food and pets, and perhaps once this is resolved will we truly "love our neighbors" consisting of our animal friends. Oh, and I read that Wright is "vegetarian", but "bends the rules" when he does his travel shows. Discuss! Blake

"Will we ever get to the point that we realize that we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty just so we can have nice running shoes?"

Internal Virus Database is out of date.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1860 - Release 21/12/2008 3:08 p.m.

December 31, 2008

I wouldn't have continued watching! I've started watching several

movies that had scenes of animals (or people!) being killed and I

just can't stomach it. One of them was Pan's Labyrinth, which won

several awards. Another one was also a foreign film.

It's true a lot of people around the world eat mostly vegetarian food

because of poverty, and when guests come they kill the animal(s)

they've been saving for a special occasion, or bring out the

preserved animal parts to honor their guests. One of my cousins who

has a gift for telling long, detailed stories visited the Soviet

Union a few decades ago and told about going to a village where he

had distant relatives who served him an eye, which rolled around on

his plate...I don't recall if he ate it. But he described in great

detail what the eye looked like and how his stomach roiled as he

looked at it etc. One aunt who visited came back with a gallon jar of

butter in her suitcase that she could not refuse, and one or two

other things. Another aunt (who normally loved to eat) stayed in a

village for 2-3 weeks (of a 6-week trip) and lost her appetite -- she

came back probably a hundred pounds lighter because she couldn't

stand the smells and sight of what they were eating.

December 31, 2008

You know, I have a daily chant... " Humans, I just don't get Them? "

I'm a dog walker, and I see chained dogs on a daily basis. I see hunters with

their dogs in

back of trucks, in bars, with a blood dripping pig tied to a wood board on top

of the dogs in

the bed of the truck. I hear the locals say, it's just part of the Hawaiian

culture. Again,

Humans....I don't get them. Oh, and culture, where you send dogs to kill a pig,

while a lot of

the times these dogs get injured. If they are injured they leave them behind

pretty much to

die. Nice...

Thanks for letting me vent. Most people here, don't understand where i come

from.

Danielle

December 31, 2008

" Pan's Labyrinth " is a brilliant film on many level. I'm guessing the scene with the broken bottle got you in the beginning. Yes, that's a rough scene and hard to stomach, altho I've seen it about 5 times now.

The violence in Pan's is integral to the story and not gratuitious...and science fiction/fantasy violence has never bothered me. I accept that flights of fancy in books and films can include many depictions I would never want to see " in real life " , but hence the nature of imagination, fiction, and the geographies of possibility...at the same time, I do not have any definitive stance on what is " reality " , meaning one static state of affairs that is " true " and devoid of interpretation or free from mediation by beings like ourselves. " Reality " is not " out there " , in other words....

Blake On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 12:33 AM, <yarrow wrote: