Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the response.

 

I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found any

reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things

like " vegetarian cheese " and other " vegetarian " products which often include

" casein " .

 

There are many reports of Michael have " rheumatoid arthritis " , " arthritis " ,

" lupus " , " auto-immune disorder " , and " heart disease " (example http://bit.ly/gDW4T

). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like diabetes, to one culprit

dairy, in particular " casein " in dairy. Additionally, oxidized cholesterol in

milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which may further impact on

heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael is reported to have

had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith illustrates this

with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his video lecture

" Udderly Amazing " ( http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )

 

Linda McCartney's book " Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking " (

http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference

between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention

of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of " vegetarian cheese " many times.

And from what I have seen on the market, all " vegetarian " cheese includes dairy

in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal

ingredients into her recipes.

 

I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are " vegan " and are

vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you being vegan

means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk cheese, cow milk

butter, or cow milk casein.

 

Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian correct?

[Guest guest]

Hi MNot quite sure how Linda McCartney's book " muddies the waters " . Sounds to me like it's a vegetarian cookbook that doesn't make any claim to be vegan.I also think that while each of those diseases can be inflamed (or possibly caused) by consuming dairy, they can equally be caused by many other things. Dairy certainly isn't a healthy thing to consume, but I think as vegans we need to be careful not to try to look like we blame absolutely everything on a non-vegan diet, otherwise people will just think we're going over the top.

But your definition of vegan seems to match with that of most vegans: that we avoid consumption of anything that comes from animals as far as is humanly possible.BBPeter2009/6/26 M <asynaps

Thank you for the response.

 

I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found any reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things like " vegetarian cheese " and other " vegetarian " products which often include " casein " .

 

There are many reports of Michael have " rheumatoid arthritis " , " arthritis " , " lupus " , " auto-immune disorder " , and " heart disease " (example http://bit.ly/gDW4T ). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like diabetes, to one culprit dairy, in particular " casein " in dairy. Additionally, oxidized cholesterol in milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which may further impact on heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael is reported to have had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith illustrates this with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his video lecture " Udderly Amazing " (  http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )

 

Linda McCartney's book " Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking " (  http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of " vegetarian cheese " many times. And from what I have seen on the market, all " vegetarian " cheese includes dairy in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal ingredients into her recipes.

 

I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are " vegan " and are vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you being vegan means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk cheese, cow milk butter, or cow milk casein.

 

Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian correct?

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

thanks Peter.

 

I suppose that I find when I speak of vegan diet, or just use the word vegan,

many people seem to just automatically replace the word vegetarian in their

responses, as if vegan and vegetarian are synonymous. And it seems that some

people are unable to make the distinction, like a kind of mental color

blindness.

 

And for some people, when they think of the word vegan, they are seem to be

unable to distinguish between a vegan who eats vegan for health reasons and

others who do it as a form of protest to the torture of animals, and may even

get the impression that all vegans do it for the later reason. And thus, that

may overshadow the health implications of eating dairy.

 

I agree with you that it is possible to have autoimmune disease from other toxic

substances being introduced to the body. And it seems that dairy products are a

common contributer in toxic load in a non vegan diet.

 

I welcome further comment on this topic. It is helpful to me to expand and

refine my understandings and ideas as well.

[Guest guest]

All vegetarians eat milk, cheese and eggs. If they don't they are vegans. I had never heard any mention of Michael Jackson being either vegetarian or vegan. He doesn't appear in any of the lists of famous ones.

 

Cheese has rennet in it - which comes from calves stomachs - therefore it is not vegetarian. When Linda McCartney refers to vegetarian cheese she means the (dairy) cheese that is made with something other than rennet, i.e. a non-animal ingredient - making the cheese vegetarian. I fail to see why you are confused. I don't think she is. She never claimed to be vegan. Whatever you think of her she did make a range of ready foods suitable for vegetarians, and some of those are now suitable for vegans.

 

Hopefully the majority of people reading your post will be vegan, as this is a vegan list. I think your assumption is wrong about most vegans being vegan for the sake of their health - I think most are ethical vegans and are so out of compassion.

 

In case there is any confusion, a vegetarian does not eat the products of slaughter - i.e. meat. A vegan does not eat any animal product, i.e. meat, dairy, eggs, honey.

 

Jo

 

 

-

M

Friday, June 26, 2009 9:06 PM

Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

 

 

Thank you for the response.I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found any reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things like "vegetarian cheese" and other "vegetarian" products which often include "casein".There are many reports of Michael have "rheumatoid arthritis", "arthritis", "lupus", "auto-immune disorder", and "heart disease"(example http://bit.ly/gDW4T ). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like diabetes, to one culprit dairy, in particular "casein" in dairy. Additionally, oxidized cholesterol in milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which may further impact on heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael is reported to have had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith illustrates this with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his video lecture "Udderly Amazing" ( http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )Linda McCartney's book "Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking" ( http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of "vegetarian cheese" many times. And from what I have seen on the market, all "vegetarian" cheese includes dairy in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal ingredients into her recipes. I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are "vegan" and are vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you being vegan means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk cheese, cow milk butter, or cow milk casein. Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian correct?

[Guest guest]

Jo, thanks for your response.

 

You wrote: " I think your assumption is wrong about most vegans being vegan for

the sake of their health "

 

I was making distinction that there are people whom eat vegan food for the

primary reason of health. The key word is " primary " . They may other reasons that

supplement that reason. And whatever those reasons are, they are ancilary to the

main reason of health. See the video " Eating, 2nd edition " . There are many

doctors and patients whom regain thier health from switching to a vegan diet,

without the use of stints, by-pass surguries, other suurgeries, or lifetime

pharmeceutical medications. And for these people it is a matter of life and

death, and being selfish... a matter of their own life they are protecting. And

a side benefit, as worthy as it is, farm animals do not have to die for it.

 

And I hope that there are people reading my post that share the position of

eating vegan primarily for protecting/defending thier own health and life.

[Guest guest]

FYI.

 

one of many quotes/reference from mainstream medical/scientific journals (In

this from " Journal of the American Medical Association JAMA and the American

Journal of Clinical Nutrition) in the video lecture " Udderly Amazing "

 

(watch " Udderly Amazing " online at: http://bit.ly/Bk7dv ) (at time segment:

00:16:11)

 

" Dairy products contribute cholesterol and fat to one's diet. comparing the

cardiovascular status of ovo-lacto-vegatarians and vegans has proven that while

both are healthier than meat-eaters, vegans have better cardiovascular status

than vegatarians who consume dairy products. "

 

[ref: JAMA 1985;254(10):1337-41; Am J Clin Nutr 1989;50:280-87.]

 

I would like to review these two citations for more clarity of the " JAMA " and

" AM J Clin Nutr " article authors.

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter / M

 

I agree that dairy is not good for us. I know people with arthritis who are told not to eat certain fruits like tomatoes, strawberries, rhubarb etc. because of the oxalic (?) acid in them, which irritates and perpetuates the disease. So I think we can know that dairy is not good, for many reasons, but also that a few vegan items are not always good for all people, all the time.

 

Jo

 

 

-

Peter Kebbell

Friday, June 26, 2009 10:22 PM

Re: Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

 

 

Hi MNot quite sure how Linda McCartney's book "muddies the waters". Sounds to me like it's a vegetarian cookbook that doesn't make any claim to be vegan.I also think that while each of those diseases can be inflamed (or possibly caused) by consuming dairy, they can equally be caused by many other things. Dairy certainly isn't a healthy thing to consume, but I think as vegans we need to be careful not to try to look like we blame absolutely everything on a non-vegan diet, otherwise people will just think we're going over the top.But your definition of vegan seems to match with that of most vegans: that we avoid consumption of anything that comes from animals as far as is humanly possible.BBPeter

2009/6/26 M <asynaps >

Thank you for the response.I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found any reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things like "vegetarian cheese" and other "vegetarian" products which often include "casein".There are many reports of Michael have "rheumatoid arthritis", "arthritis", "lupus", "auto-immune disorder", and "heart disease"(example http://bit.ly/gDW4T ). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like diabetes, to one culprit dairy, in particular "casein" in dairy. Additionally, oxidized cholesterol in milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which may further impact on heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael is reported to have had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith illustrates this with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his video lecture "Udderly Amazing" ( http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )Linda McCartney's book "Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking" ( http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of "vegetarian cheese" many times. And from what I have seen on the market, all "vegetarian" cheese includes dairy in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal ingredients into her recipes.I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are "vegan" and are vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you being vegan means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk cheese, cow milk butter, or cow milk casein.Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian correct?---To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi M

 

I know someone who never ate any dairy, including eggs, who got MS (an auto-immune disease), and very severely. She did eat some meat (but I think it was dairy we were discussing). I also have had people in my own family who eat 'normally' i.e. vegetables, meat, fish, bread and butter, fruit and cream, cheese sandwiches, boiled eggs etc. who have lived healthily to an old age - my great-grandmother being one of them - she lived to be 98, and was still healthy, just killed off by the severe Asian flu that was around in 1958/59. I have other aunts and uncles who lived to their mid to late 80s without heart-trouble or arthritis etc.

 

While we can state that dairy is not good for people, I think we have to be prepared for this sort of fact to pop up and challenge us, because obviously it must depend on something other than whether people eat dairy or don't eat dairy - there must be other factors involved, including maybe how much dairy.

 

Please don't take this as an argument to eat dairy because it is not, but if we are to argue points all facts must be considered - which is why I feel it a good idea, if it fits you, to argue the ethical/environmental points.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

M

Friday, June 26, 2009 9:06 PM

Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

 

 

Thank you for the response.I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found any reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things like "vegetarian cheese" and other "vegetarian" products which often include "casein".There are many reports of Michael have "rheumatoid arthritis", "arthritis", "lupus", "auto-immune disorder", and "heart disease"(example http://bit.ly/gDW4T ). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like diabetes, to one culprit dairy, in particular "casein" in dairy. Additionally, oxidized cholesterol in milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which may further impact on heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael is reported to have had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith illustrates this with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his video lecture "Udderly Amazing" ( http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )Linda McCartney's book "Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking" ( http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of "vegetarian cheese" many times. And from what I have seen on the market, all "vegetarian" cheese includes dairy in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal ingredients into her recipes. I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are "vegan" and are vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you being vegan means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk cheese, cow milk butter, or cow milk casein. Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian correct?

[Guest guest]

There are always exceptions to every rule. But if you look at the data, raw vegans have dramatically less incidence of non-communicable diseases. Communicable diseases are only involved in about 14% of deaths (like viruses). 7% of deaths involve bodily injury (like car wrecks). So about 3/4ths of deaths are from things like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc. 

If you're simply excluding meat and dairy from your diet, that doesn't mean you avoid disease. There's a big difference between " vegan " and " raw vegan. " Uncooked fresh fruits and vegetables contain those 20,000 different compounds, nutrients and enzymes necessary to fight disease and build healthy cell structure. If you don't have disease-fighting enzymes flowing through your veins, disease won't be fought.

For optimum health, step 1 is to avoid meat and dairy since it has milk proteins and cholesterol that feed cancer cells and clog arteries.Step 2 is to give your body living enzymes and nutrients.

There is a class of " neutral " foods that simply do very little. They don't harm the body and they don't add much nutritional value. I would throw vegan hot dogs into this category. I would even go as far as putting cooked vegetables into the neutral category. Once you cook the vegetables, you kill and break down anything useful. 

There are a lot of people who manage to live long lives that appear to be eating poorly. Or they smoke or drink. But typically they grew up in an era that ate a lot of fresh produce, so they are managing to at least eat  " an apple a day. "  (To keep the doctor away. Translation, raw food keeps you healthy.)

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:39 AM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Hi M

 

I know someone who never ate any dairy, including eggs, who got MS (an auto-immune disease), and very severely.  She did eat some meat (but I think it was dairy we were discussing).  I also have had people in my own family who eat 'normally' i.e. vegetables, meat, fish, bread and butter, fruit and cream, cheese sandwiches, boiled eggs etc. who have lived healthily to an old age - my great-grandmother being one of them - she lived to be 98, and was still healthy, just killed off by the severe Asian flu that was around in 1958/59.  I have other aunts and uncles who lived to their mid to late 80s without heart-trouble or arthritis etc.

 

While we can state that dairy is not good for people, I think we have to be prepared for this sort of fact to pop up and challenge us, because obviously it must depend on something other than whether people eat dairy or don't eat dairy - there must be other factors involved, including maybe how much dairy.

 

Please don't take this as an argument to eat dairy because it is not, but if we are to argue points all facts must be considered - which is why I feel it a good idea, if it fits you, to argue the ethical/environmental points.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Hi TerryThat's not the most helpful statistic to be honest, since it covers many thousands of different conditions. It may be that over all there is a lower incidence of those diseases amongst raw vegans, but what about individual non-communicable diseases? I suspect that there are a few where raw vegans have far higher incidence than non-raw vegans (I'm thinking particularly bone-strength related conditions, since raw vegans will generally avoid fortified foods and therefore have absolutely no intake of vitamin B12).

BBPeter2009/6/27 Terry Aley <aleydesign

 

 

There are always exceptions to every rule. But if you look at the data, raw vegans have dramatically less incidence of non-communicable diseases. Communicable diseases are only involved in about 14% of deaths (like viruses). 7% of deaths involve bodily injury (like car wrecks). So about 3/4ths of deaths are from things like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc. 

If you're simply excluding meat and dairy from your diet, that doesn't mean you avoid disease. There's a big difference between " vegan " and " raw vegan. " Uncooked fresh fruits and vegetables contain those 20,000 different compounds, nutrients and enzymes necessary to fight disease and build healthy cell structure. If you don't have disease-fighting enzymes flowing through your veins, disease won't be fought.

For optimum health, step 1 is to avoid meat and dairy since it has milk proteins and cholesterol that feed cancer cells and clog arteries.Step 2 is to give your body living enzymes and nutrients.

There is a class of " neutral " foods that simply do very little. They don't harm the body and they don't add much nutritional value. I would throw vegan hot dogs into this category. I would even go as far as putting cooked vegetables into the neutral category. Once you cook the vegetables, you kill and break down anything useful. 

There are a lot of people who manage to live long lives that appear to be eating poorly. Or they smoke or drink. But typically they grew up in an era that ate a lot of fresh produce, so they are managing to at least eat  " an apple a day. "  (To keep the doctor away. Translation, raw food keeps you healthy.)

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:39 AM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi M

 

I know someone who never ate any dairy, including eggs, who got MS (an auto-immune disease), and very severely.  She did eat some meat (but I think it was dairy we were discussing).  I also have had people in my own family who eat 'normally' i.e. vegetables, meat, fish, bread and butter, fruit and cream, cheese sandwiches, boiled eggs etc. who have lived healthily to an old age - my great-grandmother being one of them - she lived to be 98, and was still healthy, just killed off by the severe Asian flu that was around in 1958/59.  I have other aunts and uncles who lived to their mid to late 80s without heart-trouble or arthritis etc.

 

While we can state that dairy is not good for people, I think we have to be prepared for this sort of fact to pop up and challenge us, because obviously it must depend on something other than whether people eat dairy or don't eat dairy - there must be other factors involved, including maybe how much dairy.

 

Please don't take this as an argument to eat dairy because it is not, but if we are to argue points all facts must be considered - which is why I feel it a good idea, if it fits you, to argue the ethical/environmental points.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

if i might add all vegetarians don't eat milk, cheese and eggs. i think the

difference is deeper than that as the divide. use of animal products whether as

clothing or food is the line that divides. and maybe i am oversimplifing but in

short this is how i would define the difference. when explaining to others i use

this as an example and generally they get it.

 

this journey for me started as a dietary one as an attempt to live healthier and

stave off health issues as i grow older. and for this reason i hope there are

some in this group who may be vegetarian or even still omni's because it is

equally as important to talk to like-minded individuals as it is those who are

" interested " . half the battle for most is understanding the motivation behind a

vegan's decision. the 'logistics " of being vegan can come as they learn (it did

for me). all choices have to be personal and no vegan is alike in how they view

their position as a vegan or how they got to veganism. what is more important is

that as a whole we are making a difference in our local community, state, nation

and the world.

 

imho

 

keri

 

, " jo.heartwork " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> All vegetarians eat milk, cheese and eggs. If they don't they are vegans. I

had never heard any mention of Michael Jackson being either vegetarian or vegan.

He doesn't appear in any of the lists of famous ones.

>

> Cheese has rennet in it - which comes from calves stomachs - therefore it is

not vegetarian. When Linda McCartney refers to vegetarian cheese she means the

(dairy) cheese that is made with something other than rennet, i.e. a non-animal

ingredient - making the cheese vegetarian. I fail to see why you are confused.

I don't think she is. She never claimed to be vegan. Whatever you think of her

she did make a range of ready foods suitable for vegetarians, and some of those

are now suitable for vegans.

>

> Hopefully the majority of people reading your post will be vegan, as this is a

vegan list. I think your assumption is wrong about most vegans being vegan for

the sake of their health - I think most are ethical vegans and are so out of

compassion.

>

> In case there is any confusion, a vegetarian does not eat the products of

slaughter - i.e. meat. A vegan does not eat any animal product, i.e. meat,

dairy, eggs, honey.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> M

>

> Friday, June 26, 2009 9:06 PM

> Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

>

>

>

>

>

> Thank you for the response.

>

> I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found

any reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things

like " vegetarian cheese " and other " vegetarian " products which often include

" casein " .

>

> There are many reports of Michael have " rheumatoid arthritis " , " arthritis " ,

" lupus " , " auto-immune disorder " , and " heart disease " (example http://bit.ly/gDW4T

). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like diabetes, to one culprit

dairy, in particular " casein " in dairy. Additionally, oxidized cholesterol in

milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which may further impact on

heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael is reported to have

had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith illustrates this

with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his video lecture

" Udderly Amazing " ( http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )

>

> Linda McCartney's book " Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking " (

http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference

between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention

of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of " vegetarian cheese " many times.

And from what I have seen on the market, all " vegetarian " cheese includes dairy

in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal

ingredients into her recipes.

>

> I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are " vegan " and

are vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you being

vegan means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk cheese,

cow milk butter, or cow milk casein.

>

> Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian correct?

>

[Guest guest]

Some vegetables are better cooked - the nutrients become more available for use by the body - carrots is one such vegetable.

 

In the last research I read vegetarians actually live longer than vegans. Stephen Walsh said that this is because vegans have no source of B12 which keeps homocysteine in check, and therefore there is slightly more heart-trouble in vegans than there is in vegetarians - although both have less heart trouble than meat eaters. His recommendation was that vegans have B12 supplements, and that if they took them they should live longer than vegans.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Terry Aley

Saturday, June 27, 2009 7:20 PM

Re: Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

 

 

There are always exceptions to every rule. But if you look at the data, raw vegans have dramatically less incidence of non-communicable diseases. Communicable diseases are only involved in about 14% of deaths (like viruses). 7% of deaths involve bodily injury (like car wrecks). So about 3/4ths of deaths are from things like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc.

 

If you're simply excluding meat and dairy from your diet, that doesn't mean you avoid disease. There's a big difference between "vegan" and "raw vegan." Uncooked fresh fruits and vegetables contain those 20,000 different compounds, nutrients and enzymes necessary to fight disease and build healthy cell structure. If you don't have disease-fighting enzymes flowing through your veins, disease won't be fought.

 

For optimum health, step 1 is to avoid meat and dairy since it has milk proteins and cholesterol that feed cancer cells and clog arteries.

Step 2 is to give your body living enzymes and nutrients.

 

There is a class of "neutral" foods that simply do very little. They don't harm the body and they don't add much nutritional value. I would throw vegan hot dogs into this category. I would even go as far as putting cooked vegetables into the neutral category. Once you cook the vegetables, you kill and break down anything useful.

 

There are a lot of people who manage to live long lives that appear to be eating poorly. Or they smoke or drink. But typically they grew up in an era that ate a lot of fresh produce, so they are managing to at least eat "an apple a day." (To keep the doctor away. Translation, raw food keeps you healthy.)

 

 

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:39 AM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi M

 

I know someone who never ate any dairy, including eggs, who got MS (an auto-immune disease), and very severely. She did eat some meat (but I think it was dairy we were discussing). I also have had people in my own family who eat 'normally' i.e. vegetables, meat, fish, bread and butter, fruit and cream, cheese sandwiches, boiled eggs etc. who have lived healthily to an old age - my great-grandmother being one of them - she lived to be 98, and was still healthy, just killed off by the severe Asian flu that was around in 1958/59. I have other aunts and uncles who lived to their mid to late 80s without heart-trouble or arthritis etc.

 

While we can state that dairy is not good for people, I think we have to be prepared for this sort of fact to pop up and challenge us, because obviously it must depend on something other than whether people eat dairy or don't eat dairy - there must be other factors involved, including maybe how much dairy.

 

Please don't take this as an argument to eat dairy because it is not, but if we are to argue points all facts must be considered - which is why I feel it a good idea, if it fits you, to argue the ethical/environmental points.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

I hate how I say something that is completely true, based on facts, always gets turned into a disagreement on here. I feel like I need to quote a study every time I state a fact. Then star it and reference. I say raw vegans are dramatically healthier, and suddenly I'm generalizing  " thousands "  of diseases. I say people who consume dairy have more bone loss, and suddenly raw vegans, who need absolutely NO supplements whatsoever, have a diet deficiency. 

I loaned a book to a relative who has cancer last week. Let me get my book back so I can quote, link and reference a couple specific diseases so everyone is happy that what I'm saying is solid on a scientific basis. Sorry but I feel like I'm a broken record on here. It's absurd that some of you people aren't jumping in and validating what I'm saying. Instead, you're always finding a loophole tangent, and essentially undermining everything I say. 

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:56 PM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some vegetables are better cooked - the nutrients become more available for use by the body - carrots is one such vegetable.

 

In the last research I read vegetarians actually live longer than vegans.  Stephen Walsh said that this is because vegans have no source of B12 which keeps homocysteine in check, and therefore there is slightly more heart-trouble in vegans than there is in vegetarians - although both have less heart trouble than meat eaters.  His recommendation was that vegans have B12 supplements, and that if they took them they should live longer than vegans.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

You have quoted research that you have read, I have quoted research that I have read. Why make a 'my facts are better than your facts' out of it? Are you accusing me of lying about the research I have read?

 

Scientific 'facts' are many and varied, depending on who is doing the research, and the way they carry out that research, and anybody who reads research will know that there are many research projects which conclusion shows the exact opposite of other research.

 

Jo

 

 

-

Terry Aley

Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:07 PM

Re: Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

 

 

I hate how I say something that is completely true, based on facts, always gets turned into a disagreement on here. I feel like I need to quote a study every time I state a fact. Then star it and reference. I say raw vegans are dramatically healthier, and suddenly I'm generalizing "thousands" of diseases. I say people who consume dairy have more bone loss, and suddenly raw vegans, who need absolutely NO supplements whatsoever, have a diet deficiency.

 

I loaned a book to a relative who has cancer last week. Let me get my book back so I can quote, link and reference a couple specific diseases so everyone is happy that what I'm saying is solid on a scientific basis. Sorry but I feel like I'm a broken record on here. It's absurd that some of you people aren't jumping in and validating what I'm saying. Instead, you're always finding a loophole tangent, and essentially undermining everything I say.

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:56 PM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some vegetables are better cooked - the nutrients become more available for use by the body - carrots is one such vegetable.

 

In the last research I read vegetarians actually live longer than vegans. Stephen Walsh said that this is because vegans have no source of B12 which keeps homocysteine in check, and therefore there is slightly more heart-trouble in vegans than there is in vegetarians - although both have less heart trouble than meat eaters. His recommendation was that vegans have B12 supplements, and that if they took them they should live longer than vegans.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

You missed the point entirely. It's not about the facts. It's about the need/habit/desire for people in this group (more than 1, but certainly not numerous), to kick the legs out from underneath the table. I put an idea or thought or statistic out there. I don't normally see anyone jumping in to support my statements with data. What I often get back is " I know [insert fact, person who said something, relative who lived a hundred years but smoked, person who lived healthy but was run over by a bus, etc.] " They/It states that what I'm saying is incorrect, therefore, my input/discussion/comments are invalidated. 

Am I against hearing an opposing point of view? Absolutely not. It's the level of enthusiasm to jump in and invalidate. Yet I'm not seeing enthusiasm to jump in and support my discussions with the same type of facts. How about throwing in the occasional relative who didn't smoke, didn't drink, lived a healthy lifestyle, exercised, and died at age 109? It's not like there's one Jack Lalanne in the world.

In other words, people work really hard to invalidate each other. But I don't see a lot of " Great point. I've read a couple books that back up your claims. Let me link you to another study that says the same thing " or " My uncle died from a heart attack at age 35. We tried to get him to eat healthy. "  

Completely true. There's a study that will affirm or disprove everything. That's why I was getting irritated. I put ideas out there, and it never fails - someone has to chime in with a snarky response/counterpoint.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 2:23 AM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have quoted research that you have read, I have quoted research that I have read.  Why make a 'my facts are better than your facts' out of it?  Are you accusing me of lying about the research I have read?

 

Scientific 'facts' are many and varied, depending on who is doing the research, and the way they carry out that research, and anybody who reads research will know that there are many research projects which conclusion shows the exact opposite of other research.

 

Jo

  

[Guest guest]

I think you have missed the point - I am not invalidating what you have said. I just hoped to make you see that in your enthusiasm you could put forward arguments that can be easily argued against, and therefore dismissed as totally invalidated.

 

For me, there is no doubt that a vegan diet is the best one for health, and I assume everyone on here agrees - we are all of a fairly like mind. We do not need to validate each other here - validation is assumed. Where we need to be prepared for invalidation is with people who do not agree with us about the vegan diet, or who are unaware of its advantages. Everyone is able to quote people who have eaten a bad diet and lived a healthy long life. They will therefore think that what you say is not true and they will not be prepared to listen to your arguments any further.

 

Jo

 

 

-

Terry Aley

Sunday, June 28, 2009 11:03 AM

Re: Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

 

 

You missed the point entirely. It's not about the facts. It's about the need/habit/desire for people in this group (more than 1, but certainly not numerous), to kick the legs out from underneath the table. I put an idea or thought or statistic out there. I don't normally see anyone jumping in to support my statements with data. What I often get back is "I know [insert fact, person who said something, relative who lived a hundred years but smoked, person who lived healthy but was run over by a bus, etc.]" They/It states that what I'm saying is incorrect, therefore, my input/discussion/comments are invalidated.

 

Am I against hearing an opposing point of view? Absolutely not. It's the level of enthusiasm to jump in and invalidate. Yet I'm not seeing enthusiasm to jump in and support my discussions with the same type of facts. How about throwing in the occasional relative who didn't smoke, didn't drink, lived a healthy lifestyle, exercised, and died at age 109? It's not like there's one Jack Lalanne in the world.

 

In other words, people work really hard to invalidate each other. But I don't see a lot of "Great point. I've read a couple books that back up your claims. Let me link you to another study that says the same thing" or "My uncle died from a heart attack at age 35. We tried to get him to eat healthy."

 

Completely true. There's a study that will affirm or disprove everything. That's why I was getting irritated. I put ideas out there, and it never fails - someone has to chime in with a snarky response/counterpoint.

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 2:23 AM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have quoted research that you have read, I have quoted research that I have read. Why make a 'my facts are better than your facts' out of it? Are you accusing me of lying about the research I have read?

 

Scientific 'facts' are many and varied, depending on who is doing the research, and the way they carry out that research, and anybody who reads research will know that there are many research projects which conclusion shows the exact opposite of other research.

 

Jo

 

 

[Guest guest]

If I go on with this topic any longer, I'm in danger of beating a dead horse. We could go back and forth 'til the end of time. I do welcome supporting facts, research, charts and anecdotes. I don't want my discussions aimed primarily at practicing debates against non-vegan outsiders. Or having a vegan recruitment role. I feel a bit like a religious zealot quoting Bible passages in an effort to convince a friend s/he should join my church. Debating with outsiders tends to embolden them, making them firmly stand their ground. Perhaps it's best to lead by example and not by lecture.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 3:17 AM, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you have missed the point - I am not invalidating what you have said.  I just hoped to make you see that in your enthusiasm you could put forward arguments that can be easily argued against, and therefore dismissed as totally invalidated.

 

For me, there is no doubt that a vegan diet is the best one for health, and I assume everyone on here agrees - we are all of a fairly like mind.  We do not need to validate each other here - validation is assumed.  Where we need to be prepared for invalidation is with people who do not agree with us about the vegan diet, or who are unaware of its advantages.  Everyone is able to quote people who have eaten a bad diet and lived a healthy long life.  They will therefore think that what you say is not true and they will not be prepared to listen to your arguments any further. 

 

Jo 

[Guest guest]

You are right. Strictly speaking that is the division - I had not included that

as I don't know any vegetarians who have stopped using toiletries and household

products containing animal ingredients or tested on animals - and most vegans

are vegetarians who don't eat dairy, eggs or honey for a few months before they

give up using the products that aren't vegan.

 

Jo

 

, " keria_jones " <keria_jones wrote:

>

> if i might add all vegetarians don't eat milk, cheese and eggs. i think the

difference is deeper than that as the divide. use of animal products whether as

clothing or food is the line that divides. and maybe i am oversimplifing but in

short this is how i would define the difference. when explaining to others i use

this as an example and generally they get it.

>

> this journey for me started as a dietary one as an attempt to live healthier

and stave off health issues as i grow older. and for this reason i hope there

are some in this group who may be vegetarian or even still omni's because it is

equally as important to talk to like-minded individuals as it is those who are

" interested " . half the battle for most is understanding the motivation behind a

vegan's decision. the 'logistics " of being vegan can come as they learn (it did

for me). all choices have to be personal and no vegan is alike in how they view

their position as a vegan or how they got to veganism. what is more important is

that as a whole we are making a difference in our local community, state, nation

and the world.

>

> imho

>

> keri

>

> , " jo.heartwork " <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> >

> > All vegetarians eat milk, cheese and eggs. If they don't they are vegans.

I had never heard any mention of Michael Jackson being either vegetarian or

vegan. He doesn't appear in any of the lists of famous ones.

> >

> > Cheese has rennet in it - which comes from calves stomachs - therefore it is

not vegetarian. When Linda McCartney refers to vegetarian cheese she means the

(dairy) cheese that is made with something other than rennet, i.e. a non-animal

ingredient - making the cheese vegetarian. I fail to see why you are confused.

I don't think she is. She never claimed to be vegan. Whatever you think of her

she did make a range of ready foods suitable for vegetarians, and some of those

are now suitable for vegans.

> >

> > Hopefully the majority of people reading your post will be vegan, as this is

a vegan list. I think your assumption is wrong about most vegans being vegan

for the sake of their health - I think most are ethical vegans and are so out of

compassion.

> >

> > In case there is any confusion, a vegetarian does not eat the products of

slaughter - i.e. meat. A vegan does not eat any animal product, i.e. meat,

dairy, eggs, honey.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > -

> > M

> >

> > Friday, June 26, 2009 9:06 PM

> > Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Thank you for the response.

> >

> > I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found

any reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things

like " vegetarian cheese " and other " vegetarian " products which often include

" casein " .

> >

> > There are many reports of Michael have " rheumatoid arthritis " ,

" arthritis " , " lupus " , " auto-immune disorder " , and " heart disease " (example

http://bit.ly/gDW4T ). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like

diabetes, to one culprit dairy, in particular " casein " in dairy. Additionally,

oxidized cholesterol in milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which

may further impact on heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael

is reported to have had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith

illustrates this with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his

video lecture " Udderly Amazing " ( http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )

> >

> > Linda McCartney's book " Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking " (

http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference

between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention

of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of " vegetarian cheese " many times.

And from what I have seen on the market, all " vegetarian " cheese includes dairy

in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal

ingredients into her recipes.

> >

> > I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are " vegan "

and are vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you

being vegan means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk

cheese, cow milk butter, or cow milk casein.

> >

> > Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian

correct?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

hi, i'm a fraggle

who happens to refrain from eating animal products

vegetarianism and veganism after awhile starts to sound like ordering coffee at starbux

"double latte rennet free except for chicken on weekends and no gluten with a twist."

heartwerk Jun 28, 2009 11:41 PM Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?

 

 

 

You are right. Strictly speaking that is the division - I had not included that as I don't know any vegetarians who have stopped using toiletries and household products containing animal ingredients or tested on animals - and most vegans are vegetarians who don't eat dairy, eggs or honey for a few months before they give up using the products that aren't vegan.Jo , "keria_jones" <keria_jones wrote:>> if i might add all vegetarians don't eat milk, cheese and eggs. i think the difference is deeper than that as the divide. use of animal products whether as clothing or food is the line that divides. and maybe i am oversimplifing but in short this is how i would define the difference. when explaining to others i use this as an example and generally they get it.> > this journey for me started as a dietary one as an attempt to live healthier and stave off health issues as i grow older. and for this reason i hope there are some in this group who may be vegetarian or even still omni's because it is equally as important to talk to like-minded individuals as it is those who are "interested". half the battle for most is understanding the motivation behind a vegan's decision. the 'logistics" of being vegan can come as they learn (it did for me). all choices have to be personal and no vegan is alike in how they view their position as a vegan or how they got to veganism. what is more important is that as a whole we are making a difference in our local community, state, nation and the world. > > imho> > keri> > , "jo.heartwork" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> >> > All vegetarians eat milk, cheese and eggs. If they don't they are vegans. I had never heard any mention of Michael Jackson being either vegetarian or vegan. He doesn't appear in any of the lists of famous ones.> > > > Cheese has rennet in it - which comes from calves stomachs - therefore it is not vegetarian. When Linda McCartney refers to vegetarian cheese she means the (dairy) cheese that is made with something other than rennet, i.e. a non-animal ingredient - making the cheese vegetarian. I fail to see why you are confused. I don't think she is. She never claimed to be vegan. Whatever you think of her she did make a range of ready foods suitable for vegetarians, and some of those are now suitable for vegans.> > > > Hopefully the majority of people reading your post will be vegan, as this is a vegan list. I think your assumption is wrong about most vegans being vegan for the sake of their health - I think most are ethical vegans and are so out of compassion.> > > > In case there is any confusion, a vegetarian does not eat the products of slaughter - i.e. meat. A vegan does not eat any animal product, i.e. meat, dairy, eggs, honey.> > > > Jo> > > > - > > M > > > > Friday, June 26, 2009 9:06 PM> > Re: Michael Jackson ... Vegan or Vegetarian or?> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the response.> > > > I do any of you know if he consumed milk products? So far I have not found any reports distinguishing him as being vegan. So he may have been eating things like "vegetarian cheese" and other "vegetarian" products which often include "casein".> > > > There are many reports of Michael have "rheumatoid arthritis", "arthritis", "lupus", "auto-immune disorder", and "heart disease"(example http://bit.ly/gDW4T ). All of these, IMHO, can be directly linked, like diabetes, to one culprit dairy, in particular "casein" in dairy. Additionally, oxidized cholesterol in milk may also contribute to arterial sclerosis, which may further impact on heart disease due to the auto-immune diseases that Michael is reported to have had, such as the rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. Dr. Veith illustrates this with scientific studies in main stream medical journals in his video lecture "Udderly Amazing" ( http://bit.ly/Bk7dv )> > > > Linda McCartney's book "Linda McCartney's World of Vegetarian Cooking" ( http://bit.ly/G3RyO ) she furthers the confusion of what is the difference between vegetarian and vegan. Or actually she may be just avoiding any mention of vegan all together. In the book she speaks of "vegetarian cheese" many times. And from what I have seen on the market, all "vegetarian" cheese includes dairy in them. She also seems to also include milk, butter, and other animal ingredients into her recipes. > > > > I am supposing that at least a few of you reading this post are "vegan" and are vegan for the main reason of your personal health. And that for you being vegan means not consuming dairy products including cow milk, cow milk cheese, cow milk butter, or cow milk casein. > > > > Is my understanding of the distinction between vegan and vegetarian correct?> >>

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, men are scattered and smeared over the desert grass,

And the generals have accomplished nothing.

 

-Nefarious War

Li Po (Circa 750)