Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien. But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. These include tempeh, miso, and natto. Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm I want to know what you all say about SOY. --Asia-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Hi AsiaIt is indeed a classic question for new vegans... every bit of " research " which comes out showing Soy to be dangerous has been funded by either Weston Price, the Meat Marketing Board, or some other organisation with a vested interest in the meat & dairy industry. The simple answer is that soy is vastly better for you than dairy or meat - people whose diet is meat based have a 50% chance of having a major heart attack before the age of 50... people with no meat, but dairy in their diet are at 20% risk... those whose main source of protein is soy are at just 4% risk. If you look in the archives of this list, you can find the scientific details which show the claims against soy to be complete nonsense.Of course, as with every other food, it's not a good idea to rely soley on soy for your protein... but that's more to do with what you'd be missing than anything bad about what's in the soy. BBPeter2009/8/4 asianikuda <asianikuda I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien. But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. These include tempeh, miso, and natto. Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm I want to know what you all say about SOY. --Asia-- --- To send an email to -! Groups Links <*> / <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: /join ( ID required) <*> To change settings via email: -digest -fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 But then why would they make the distiction between fermented and unfermented soy, if they want to slander soy altogether? These articles go into quite a bit of detail on how fermented soy really is healthy, and they encourage eating it. The primary focus of these articles is against the use of UNfermented soy in processed foods (its almost on every lable!). These include soy oil, soy protien, and soy isolate (i think). They say that soy milk is ok in moderation (like once a week) but absolutely not suitable for baby formula (which makes sense). So why they distiction? , Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Asia > > It is indeed a classic question for new vegans... every bit of " research " > which comes out showing Soy to be dangerous has been funded by either Weston > Price, the Meat Marketing Board, or some other organisation with a vested > interest in the meat & dairy industry. > > The simple answer is that soy is vastly better for you than dairy or meat - > people whose diet is meat based have a 50% chance of having a major heart > attack before the age of 50... people with no meat, but dairy in their diet > are at 20% risk... those whose main source of protein is soy are at just 4% > risk. > > If you look in the archives of this list, you can find the scientific > details which show the claims against soy to be complete nonsense. > > Of course, as with every other food, it's not a good idea to rely soley on > soy for your protein... but that's more to do with what you'd be missing > than anything bad about what's in the soy. > > BB > Peter > > 2009/8/4 asianikuda <asianikuda > > > I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last > > couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan > > protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots > > of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This > > unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien. > > > > But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. > > These include tempeh, miso, and natto. > > > > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and > > claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities > > that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in > > the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one > > such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm > > > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. > > --Asia-- > > > > > > > > --- > > > > To send an email to -! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Because fermented soy is a bog-standard cooking ingredient. Unfermented soy (particularly soy protein) is the thing that the meat industry sees as a threat.I know nothing about baby formula as I'm not a parent, so can't comment on that particular issue. But soy milk is fine as a replacement for regular milk for adults, and is quite a lot better for you since it doesn't have any associations with osteoperosis, cholesterol, heart disease, etc.! I'd really recommend looking through the archives of the list, as this is a discussion that comes up time and again, and there's a lot of good information there.BBPeter 2009/8/4 asianikuda <asianikuda But then why would they make the distiction between fermented and unfermented soy, if they want to slander soy altogether? These articles go into quite a bit of detail on how fermented soy really is healthy, and they encourage eating it. The primary focus of these articles is against the use of UNfermented soy in processed foods (its almost on every lable!). These include soy oil, soy protien, and soy isolate (i think). They say that soy milk is ok in moderation (like once a week) but absolutely not suitable for baby formula (which makes sense). So why they distiction? , Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Asia > > It is indeed a classic question for new vegans... every bit of " research " > which comes out showing Soy to be dangerous has been funded by either Weston > Price, the Meat Marketing Board, or some other organisation with a vested > interest in the meat & dairy industry. > > The simple answer is that soy is vastly better for you than dairy or meat - > people whose diet is meat based have a 50% chance of having a major heart > attack before the age of 50... people with no meat, but dairy in their diet > are at 20% risk... those whose main source of protein is soy are at just 4% > risk. > > If you look in the archives of this list, you can find the scientific > details which show the claims against soy to be complete nonsense. > > Of course, as with every other food, it's not a good idea to rely soley on > soy for your protein... but that's more to do with what you'd be missing > than anything bad about what's in the soy. > > BB > Peter > > 2009/8/4 asianikuda <asianikuda > > > I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last > > couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan > > protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots > > of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This > > unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien. > > > > But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. > > These include tempeh, miso, and natto. > > > > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and > > claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities > > that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in > > the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one > > such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm > > > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. > > --Asia-- > > > > > > > > --- > > > > To send an email to -! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > --- To send an email to -! Groups Links <*> / <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: /join ( ID required) <*> To change settings via email: -digest -fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I don't know what your soy is like in America. I don't know if there are different ways of making tofu - how many ways could there be? Soy is a bean. All beans need to be boiled fast for ten minutes and then cooked thoroughly. I imagine the same applies to soy beans. I don't see why there would be a need to ferment them. Broccoli and chickpeas are also rich sources of phytoeastrogens, but we don't hear any warnings about these, or that they need to be fermented. I have read quite a lot of research on soya beans/products, and I have no worries about drinking soya milk, using soya margarine and ice cream, or using tofu. Jo , " asianikuda " <asianikuda wrote: > > I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien. > > But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. These include tempeh, miso, and natto. > > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. > --Asia-- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'm not sure about baby formula, although I have recently seen an article in the news here in the UK saying that soya formula is safe for babies. Obviously the best formula for babies is breastmilk. I'm not sure when it was decided that cow's milk is okay for babies!! Jo , " asianikuda " <asianikuda wrote: > > But then why would they make the distiction between fermented and unfermented soy, if they want to slander soy altogether? These articles go into quite a bit of detail on how fermented soy really is healthy, and they encourage eating it. The primary focus of these articles is against the use of UNfermented soy in processed foods (its almost on every lable!). These include soy oil, soy protien, and soy isolate (i think). They say that soy milk is ok in moderation (like once a week) but absolutely not suitable for baby formula (which makes sense). So why they distiction? > > > , Peter Kebbell <metalscarab@> wrote: > > > > Hi Asia > > > > It is indeed a classic question for new vegans... every bit of " research " > > which comes out showing Soy to be dangerous has been funded by either Weston > > Price, the Meat Marketing Board, or some other organisation with a vested > > interest in the meat & dairy industry. > > > > The simple answer is that soy is vastly better for you than dairy or meat - > > people whose diet is meat based have a 50% chance of having a major heart > > attack before the age of 50... people with no meat, but dairy in their diet > > are at 20% risk... those whose main source of protein is soy are at just 4% > > risk. > > > > If you look in the archives of this list, you can find the scientific > > details which show the claims against soy to be complete nonsense. > > > > Of course, as with every other food, it's not a good idea to rely soley on > > soy for your protein... but that's more to do with what you'd be missing > > than anything bad about what's in the soy. > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > 2009/8/4 asianikuda <asianikuda@> > > > > > I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last > > > couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan > > > protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots > > > of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This > > > unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien. > > > > > > But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. > > > These include tempeh, miso, and natto. > > > > > > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and > > > claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities > > > that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in > > > the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one > > > such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm > > > > > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. > > > --Asia-- > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > To send an email to -@! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Dr. Mercola is an Anti-vegetarian, Anti-Vegan and he is an avid supporter of the " Raw milk " movement and he is a fan and supports the Weston A. Price Foundation. Be careful where you get your sources. In the Weston Price webpage they have a section dedicated to the " dangers " of being vegetarian and how wonderful pig lard is.. but they guy who wrote it died from a stroke at the age of 40. This has been discussed in this group here before and you could do a search on it for more information. Anouk > , " asianikuda " <asianikuda@> wrote: > > >> > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm > > > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. > > --Asia-- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 yeah, i d to Mercola's diatribes awhile ago, flower child Aug 5, 2009 10:14 AM Re: The soy discussion Dr. Mercola is an Anti-vegetarian, Anti-Vegan and he is an avid supporter of the "Raw milk" movement and he is a fan and supports the Weston A. Price Foundation. Be careful where you get your sources. In the Weston Price webpage they have a section dedicated to the "dangers" of being vegetarian and how wonderful pig lard is.. but they guy who wrote it died from a stroke at the age of 40. This has been discussed in this group here before and you could do a search on it for more information.Anouk> , "asianikuda" <asianikuda@> wrote:> >>> > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm> > > > I want to know what you all say about SOY.> > --Asia--> >> "Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Interview: The Place of Soy in the Health Food Arena By Josh Day on October 06, 2008 Healthy Eating Resources Health & Beyond editor Josh Day recently sat down with Dr. Kim to ask him a few questions on a topic that's always hot in the health food world. We're talking about soy... what it is, what it does in your body, and why you see soy this and soy that on almost every aisle of your local health food store. Let's jump straight into the interview, shall we? Josh: What exactly is soy? Dr. Kim: Soybeans are legumes - they look like peas in a pod, but they're larger. Soybeans are rich in protein, omega-3 fatty acids, tryptophan, fiber, iron, and a bunch of other minerals. All of the soy products on the market today - soy milk, tofu, soy sauce, miso, tempeh - they're made using soybeans, and in most cases, additional ingredients are added. Josh: What’s up with everything we hear about fermented and unfermented soy? Dr. Kim: Foods made with fermented soy are thought to be healthier than those made with unfermented soy. Examples of foods made with fermented soy are miso, tempeh, and naturally brewed soy sauce. Tofu and soy milk are examples of foods made with unfermented soy, although sometimes, tofu, once it’s made, is fermented to produce fermented tofu dishes in East Asian cooking – mostly Chinese. Josh: Is soy as good for you as many in the health food movement would have us believe? Dr. Kim: To me, soy is just another food. I think that you can eat soy and be healthy, but you don’t need to eat it to be healthy. Josh: In health food stores you see "soy" everything -- soy milk, soy dairy, etc. Many people, especially vegans, consume soy as if it were oxygen. They think they're doing their body good but perhaps they're not? Dr. Kim: Right, I think the most important point here is that it’s best to eat a variety of foods. Anytime you eat too much of one specific food, especially if that food is rich in protein, you may increase your risk of eventually becoming intolerant to that food. I’ve seen this happen to people with soy milk, tahini, almonds, and a number of other protein-dense foods. Lots of processed foods made with soy – like meat-substitutes – they’re made with soy protein isolate, which is a highly processed food that can’t be as good for us as soybeans that are minimally or naturally processed. Fermentation is a “natural†type of processing that doesn’t have the potential to hurt the nutrient value of soybeans the way that high temperature processing techniques do. I think I know what you’re getting at with this question. Some people become vegan and turn to soy cheese, soy burgers, soy hot dogs, soy nuggets, soy ice cream, soy yogurt, soy everything to feel like they aren’t depriving themselves of foods that they enjoyed in the past. The vast majority of these highly processed foods are made with soy protein isolate and preservatives, and in my opinion, they’re no better than French fries, donuts, and regular fast food fare. Josh: Is "soy" milk or "soy" cheese any better than, say, the bottled parmesan "cheese" that comes in a cardboard can? Dr. Kim: Soy milk - if it’s made with whole, organic soy beans and it’s not sweetened - I think can be a healthy food choice. But again, the key is to drink it in moderation. A cup or two of good soy milk a few times a week in your smoothies or on your cereal is fine, in my opinion. Soy milk that is made with soy protein isolate and/or has added sugar, even if the sugar is from a “natural†source, like evaporated cane juice, is probably no better for us than Tang. In fact, if it’s made with soy protein isolate, it‘s probably worse than Tang, because with Tang, you aren’t getting highly processed protein into your system. Soy cheese – my understanding is that some brands of soy cheese contain casein, the protein found in animal milk. And casein is problematic for a lot of people. If you’re going to eat soy cheese, I would say to pick a brand that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans. And again, I would recommend eating it in moderation, say a couple of times a week at most. Parmesan cheese – I don’t know much about how the parmesan cheese that comes in a cardboard can is made, so I can’t say how healthy a food choice it is. What I can say is that any food that is made with pasteurized milk isn’t a great choice because it contains casein that’s been heated at a high temperature. I think that Dr. T. Colin Campbell of The China Study believes that there’s a strong association between casein intake and risk of different types of cancer and other degenerative diseases. I tend to agree with this, but I can’t say the same thing about raw dairy products. Casein that is unheated and found in milk that comes from a healthy animal that is allowed to live in a natural setting may be just fine – just look at groups of people out there – mostly Caucasians – who live long and healthy lives with raw dairy as staples – this includes different types of cheese made with raw dairy. If you’re asking me to compare soy cheese that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans vs. Parmesan cheese that’s grated fresh from one of those big cylindrical blocks made with raw milk, the kind that you see on one of those Food Network travel shows (I think Malto Mario did one of those – is he really Italian? Because he looks Irish to me – Margaret and I have a running bet on this), then I think the answer just depends on each person’s physiology. For me, being of Asian descent, soy cheese is probably a healthier choice than Parmesan cheese. And for you, being Caucasian, assuming that you aren’t lactose-intolerant, fresh Parmesan cheese is probably the better choice. Just so you know, I don’t eat soy or dairy cheese. Well, sometimes, I get a bit in some food at a restaurant, but this probably happens about once a year at most. Josh: Do you use soy products in your home? If so, what kinds, and do you believe there is any health benefit? Dr. Kim: Sure, we use den jang, which is the Korean version of miso – it’s a paste that’s made with fermented soy beans. We get it from a Korean market in Toronto in a big tub. It’s made in Korea with organic soybeans. Mostly, we use it to make den jang soup, which is made by boiling onions, zucchini, spinach, and sometimes some mushrooms in vegetable broth, and adding some of the paste after the vegetables are ready and the heat is turned off. You have to smear the soybean paste along the sides of the pot to get it to blend in with the rest of the soap. Or what Margaret does is she holds a medium size strainer in the soup and uses a spoon to push the den jang through the strainer as it dissolves into the broth. We also use soy sauce – we usually use Kikkoman – it’s naturally fermented for several months. When we use soy sauce, we use just a bit, just to add a little flavour. You know you’ve used too much if you wake up the next morning with a swollen face. I did this once when I lived in Korea. Naturally fermented soy sauce and den jang are rich in friendly bacteria, and den jang is rich in protein, iron, tryptophan – all of the nutrients that I mentioned before are in soybeans – I guess those are the health benefits. Oh, and soy sauce, if it’s made properly, is extremely rich in naturally occurring antioxidants – it’s a much richer source of antioxidants than most types of red wine. Josh: I love fried rice. A lot of people don't know fried rice is simply cooked rice, white or brown, stir fried in a wok or hibachi grill with soy sauce. Now, I've heard soy sauce is not good for you. Is this true? Dr. Kim: I think that it mostly depends on the brand that you use. Some companies make soy sauce by boiling soybeans for a day before adding color and artificial flavors – some of these brands contain MSG or compounds that very closely resemble MSG. Most brands of soy sauce are pretty high in salt, so it’s best to use small bits at a time. People who have health issues that are exacerbated by significant salt intake should probably avoid soy sauce. Also, a few years ago, a government agency in the U.K. found that some brands of soy sauce contained dangerous amounts of a couple of different chemicals. The thing is, these chemicals were found in brands that were made with the short-cut method. Bottom line: if you use small amounts of a high quality soy sauce that’s been fermented over several months, I think this is fine for most people. Josh: How prevalent is soy in Korean cooking? I see soy sauce in Japanese and Chinese food all the time. Dr. Kim: I think that it’s used about as often as we use it. Den Jang (miso) is used to make soup, which is probably eaten a few times a week in most Korean homes. Soy sauce is used to add flavour to some dishes, almost always in small amounts. Soy sauce is also used as a part of marinades for various meat dishes. Ah, and tofu – we sometimes add little cubes of tofu to our soups, and sometimes, Koreans will make a separate side dish with tofu – sometimes cooked, sometimes raw with a sauce that’s made with soy sauce, sesame seeds, and green onions. Josh: What's the relationship between soy and MSG? Dr. Kim: My understanding is that quality brands of naturally fermented soy sauce don’t have added MSG or MSG-like compounds. Cheaper brands use hydrolyzed vegetable protein, which behaves like MSG in the body. Unless you’ve been eating foods with MSG for a long time, it’s likely that your body will let you know whenever you eat something that has added MSG or an MSG-like substance. Some of the more common symptoms that people experience after eating MSG are pounding headaches, heart palpitations, sweating, a flushed feeling, nausea, weakness, and shortness of breath. Several people have told me that they tend to have really crazy dreams whenever they eat MSG – this makes sense, as MSG is considered an excitotoxin that can rapidly stimulate brain tissue. Bottom line: if you use a high quality, naturally fermented soy sauce, and you use it sparingly, you probably don’t have to worry about getting MSG from soy sauce. "Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'd like to know, too.Patricia--- On Tue, 8/4/09, asianikuda <asianikuda wrote:asianikuda <asianikuda The soy discussion Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 10:50 AMI dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien.But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. These include tempeh, miso, and natto.Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htmI want to know what you all say about SOY.--Asia-----To send an email to -! Groups Links<*> /<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: /join ( ID required)<*> To change settings via email: -digest -fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 That's interesting and reassuring. Dr. Mercola advocates both meat and dairy too, if it's from raw milk.Patricia--- On Tue, 8/4/09, Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:Peter Kebbell <metalscarabRe: The soy discussion Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 11:07 AM Hi AsiaIt is indeed a classic question for new vegans... every bit of "research" which comes out showing Soy to be dangerous has been funded by either Weston Price, the Meat Marketing Board, or some other organisation with a vested interest in the meat & dairy industry. The simple answer is that soy is vastly better for you than dairy or meat - people whose diet is meat based have a 50% chance of having a major heart attack before the age of 50... people with no meat, but dairy in their diet are at 20% risk... those whose main source of protein is soy are at just 4% risk. If you look in the archives of this list, you can find the scientific details which show the claims against soy to be complete nonsense.Of course, as with every other food, it's not a good idea to rely soley on soy for your protein... but that's more to do with what you'd be missing than anything bad about what's in the soy. BBPeter2009/8/4 asianikuda <asianikuda I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien. But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. These include tempeh, miso, and natto. Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm I want to know what you all say about SOY. --Asia-- --- To send an email to -! Groups Links <*> / <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: /join ( ID required) <*> To change settings via email: -digest -fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Well, its seems that based on the interview with Dr.Kim that which i said before in confirmed. Soy is to be eaten in moderation-only a couple times a week at most; not every day in the form of soy cheese, soy meat, and soy yogurt...Also, she says the asian people eat unfermented soy rarely, and only fermented soy is used on a regular basis (miso and soy sauce). The arguments here seem very logical because i believe in the old saying " everything in moderation " . Especially processed foods like soy products. I dont think it could be reasonable to think that having a soy milk/ soy tofu smoothie in the morning, then soy burgers for lunch, and some soy cheese for dinner is a healthy lifestyle. Asia Interview: The Place of Soy in the Health Food Arena By Josh Day on October 06, 2008 Healthy Eating Resources Health & Beyond editor Josh Day recently sat down with Dr. Kim to ask him a few questions on a topic that's always hot in the health food world. We're talking about soy... what it is, what it does in your body, and why you see soy this and soy that on almost every aisle of your local health food store. Let's jump straight into the interview, shall we? Josh: What exactly is soy? Dr. Kim: Soybeans are legumes - they look like peas in a pod, but they're larger. Soybeans are rich in protein, omega-3 fatty acids, tryptophan, fiber, iron, and a bunch of other minerals. All of the soy products on the market today - soy milk, tofu, soy sauce, miso, tempeh - they're made using soybeans, and in most cases, additional ingredients are added. Josh: What’s up with everything we hear about fermented and unfermented soy? Dr. Kim: Foods made with fermented soy are thought to be healthier than those made with unfermented soy. Examples of foods made with fermented soy are miso, tempeh, and naturally brewed soy sauce. Tofu and soy milk are examples of foods made with unfermented soy, although sometimes, tofu, once it’s made, is fermented to produce fermented tofu dishes in East Asian cooking †" mostly Chinese. Josh: Is soy as good for you as many in the health food movement would have us believe? Dr. Kim: To me, soy is just another food. I think that you can eat soy and be healthy, but you don’t need to eat it to be healthy. Josh: In health food stores you see " soy " everything -- soy milk, soy dairy, etc. Many people, especially vegans, consume soy as if it were oxygen. They think they're doing their body good but perhaps they're not? Dr. Kim: Right, I think the most important point here is that it’s best to eat a variety of foods. Anytime you eat too much of one specific food, especially if that food is rich in protein, you may increase your risk of eventually becoming intolerant to that food. I’ve seen this happen to people with soy milk, tahini, almonds, and a number of other protein-dense foods. Lots of processed foods made with soy †" like meat-substitutes †" they’re made with soy protein isolate, which is a highly processed food that can’t be as good for us as soybeans that are minimally or naturally processed. Fermentation is a “natural†type of processing that doesn’t have the potential to hurt the nutrient value of soybeans the way that high temperature processing techniques do. I think I know what you’re getting at with this question. Some people become vegan and turn to soy cheese, soy burgers, soy hot dogs, soy nuggets, soy ice cream, soy yogurt, soy everything to feel like they aren’t depriving themselves of foods that they enjoyed in the past. The vast majority of these highly processed foods are made with soy protein isolate and preservatives, and in my opinion, they’re no better than French fries, donuts, and regular fast food fare. Josh: Is " soy " milk or " soy " cheese any better than, say, the bottled parmesan " cheese " that comes in a cardboard can? Dr. Kim: Soy milk - if it’s made with whole, organic soy beans and it’s not sweetened - I think can be a healthy food choice. But again, the key is to drink it in moderation. A cup or two of good soy milk a few times a week in your smoothies or on your cereal is fine, in my opinion. Soy milk that is made with soy protein isolate and/or has added sugar, even if the sugar is from a “natural†source, like evaporated cane juice, is probably no better for us than Tang. In fact, if it’s made with soy protein isolate, it‘s probably worse than Tang, because with Tang, you aren’t getting highly processed protein into your system. Soy cheese †" my understanding is that some brands of soy cheese contain casein, the protein found in animal milk. And casein is problematic for a lot of people. If you’re going to eat soy cheese, I would say to pick a brand that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans. And again, I would recommend eating it in moderation, say a couple of times a week at most. Parmesan cheese †" I don’t know much about how the parmesan cheese that comes in a cardboard can is made, so I can’t say how healthy a food choice it is. What I can say is that any food that is made with pasteurized milk isn’t a great choice because it contains casein that’s been heated at a high temperature. I think that Dr. T. Colin Campbell of The China Study believes that there’s a strong association between casein intake and risk of different types of cancer and other degenerative diseases. I tend to agree with this, but I can’t say the same thing about raw dairy products. Casein that is unheated and found in milk that comes from a healthy animal that is allowed to live in a natural setting may be just fine †" just look at groups of people out there †" mostly Caucasians †" who live long and healthy lives with raw dairy as staples †" this includes different types of cheese made with raw dairy. If you’re asking me to compare soy cheese that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans vs. Parmesan cheese that’s grated fresh from one of those big cylindrical blocks made with raw milk, the kind that you see on one of those Food Network travel shows (I think Malto Mario did one of those †" is he really Italian? Because he looks Irish to me †" Margaret and I have a running bet on this), then I think the answer just depends on each person’s physiology. For me, being of Asian descent, soy cheese is probably a healthier choice than Parmesan cheese. And for you, being Caucasian, assuming that you aren’t lactose-intolerant, fresh Parmesan cheese is probably the better choice. Just so you know, I don’t eat soy or dairy cheese. Well, sometimes, I get a bit in some food at a restaurant, but this probably happens about once a year at most. Josh: Do you use soy products in your home? If so, what kinds, and do you believe there is any health benefit? Dr. Kim: Sure, we use den jang, which is the Korean version of miso †" it’s a paste that’s made with fermented soy beans. We get it from a Korean market in Toronto in a big tub. It’s made in Korea with organic soybeans. Mostly, we use it to make den jang soup, which is made by boiling onions, zucchini, spinach, and sometimes some mushrooms in vegetable broth, and adding some of the paste after the vegetables are ready and the heat is turned off. You have to smear the soybean paste along the sides of the pot to get it to blend in with the rest of the soap. Or what Margaret does is she holds a medium size strainer in the soup and uses a spoon to push the den jang through the strainer as it dissolves into the broth. We also use soy sauce †" we usually use Kikkoman †" it’s naturally fermented for several months. When we use soy sauce, we use just a bit, just to add a little flavour. You know you’ve used too much if you wake up the next morning with a swollen face. I did this once when I lived in Korea. Naturally fermented soy sauce and den jang are rich in friendly bacteria, and den jang is rich in protein, iron, tryptophan †" all of the nutrients that I mentioned before are in soybeans †" I guess those are the health benefits. Oh, and soy sauce, if it’s made properly, is extremely rich in naturally occurring antioxidants †" it’s a much richer source of antioxidants than most types of red wine. Josh: I love fried rice. A lot of people don't know fried rice is simply cooked rice, white or brown, stir fried in a wok or hibachi grill with soy sauce. Now, I've heard soy sauce is not good for you. Is this true? Dr. Kim: I think that it mostly depends on the brand that you use. Some companies make soy sauce by boiling soybeans for a day before adding color and artificial flavors †" some of these brands contain MSG or compounds that very closely resemble MSG. Most brands of soy sauce are pretty high in salt, so it’s best to use small bits at a time. People who have health issues that are exacerbated by significant salt intake should probably avoid soy sauce. Also, a few years ago, a government agency in the U.K. found that some brands of soy sauce contained dangerous amounts of a couple of different chemicals. The thing is, these chemicals were found in brands that were made with the short-cut method. Bottom line: if you use small amounts of a high quality soy sauce that’s been fermented over several months, I think this is fine for most people. Josh: How prevalent is soy in Korean cooking? I see soy sauce in Japanese and Chinese food all the time. Dr. Kim: I think that it’s used about as often as we use it. Den Jang (miso) is used to make soup, which is probably eaten a few times a week in most Korean homes. Soy sauce is used to add flavour to some dishes, almost always in small amounts. Soy sauce is also used as a part of marinades for various meat dishes. Ah, and tofu †" we sometimes add little cubes of tofu to our soups, and sometimes, Koreans will make a separate side dish with tofu †" sometimes cooked, sometimes raw with a sauce that’s made with soy sauce, sesame seeds, and green onions. Josh: What's the relationship between soy and MSG? Dr. Kim: My understanding is that quality brands of naturally fermented soy sauce don’t have added MSG or MSG-like compounds. Cheaper brands use hydrolyzed vegetable protein, which behaves like MSG in the body. Unless you’ve been eating foods with MSG for a long time, it’s likely that your body will let you know whenever you eat something that has added MSG or an MSG-like substance. Some of the more common symptoms that people experience after eating MSG are pounding headaches, heart palpitations, sweating, a flushed feeling, nausea, weakness, and shortness of breath. Several people have told me that they tend to have really crazy dreams whenever they eat MSG †" this makes sense, as MSG is considered an excitotoxin that can rapidly stimulate brain tissue. Bottom line: if you use a high quality, naturally fermented soy sauce, and you use it sparingly, you probably don’t have to worry about getting MSG from soy sauce. " Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 you know, i tried searching for your prior discussions on soy by typing in " soy " into the search space, but all i got was messages that included soy in the recipes. I didnt want to spend all day browsing old messages. its easier to just ask people. If you are knowledgable on the topic, it would be nice to hear what you have to say and hear your sources. Its one thing to claim someone is lying because he is associated with non-vegan groups, but you have to have evidence against what he says. and hes not the only one, im sure. Asia , " flower child " <zurumato wrote: > > Dr. Mercola is an Anti-vegetarian, Anti-Vegan and he is an avid supporter of the " Raw milk " movement and he is a fan and supports the Weston A. Price Foundation. > > Be careful where you get your sources. In the Weston Price webpage they have a section dedicated to the " dangers " of being vegetarian and how wonderful pig lard is.. but they guy who wrote it died from a stroke at the age of 40. > > This has been discussed in this group here before and you could do a search on it for more information. > > Anouk > > > > , " asianikuda " <asianikuda@> wrote: > > > > >> > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm > > > > > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. > > > --Asia-- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Here's a point-by-point discussion of soy products, with references. http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/april/050400pusoy.htm April 2005 Vol. 4, No. 4 Soy - Food, Wonder Drug, or Poison? Soy-food consuming populations of people, like the Chinese and Japanese, have a much lower incidence of heart disease, osteoporosis, and cancer of the breast and prostate. From this observation, many researchers have come to the conclusion that ingredients in the soybean have anticancer, antihypertensive, and anti-cholesterol benefits, and also act as a natural alternative to hormone replacement therapy. Soy foods have become synonymous with health food and vegetarianism. Their popularity is tied to the belief that soy has "wonder-drug" benefits - so powerful that many people suppose they can safely eat their bacon and eggs for breakfast as long as they finish off their morning meal with a cup of soy yogurt. We recommend that you use traditional soy foods, like soy milk and tofu, only as a small part of your diet, at most 5% of your daily calories. "Synthetic soy foods," like meats, cheeses, and soy bars, should rarely, if ever, be consumed. Examples of sensible uses might be: Soy milk to moisten cereal, not glassfuls as a beverage Tofu pieces in a "stir-fry" rice dish, not as a soy burger entrée An occasional tofu-based dessert, not daily soy "candy" bars However, there is a dark side to the soy story that warns that these foods may increase your risk for cancer, impair your thyroid, immune, and brain function, and cause you bone loss and reproductive problems. Fortunately, these worries are relevant mostly for people lured into consuming "fake foods" synthesized from man-made components of soy and other foods, and high potency soy supplements - not for those who consume traditional soy foods as a small portion of their diet. Soy's Effects Are Usually Inconsequential In Asian countries, soy is consumed as boiled soybeans (edamame), tofu (soybean curd), natto (fermented soybeans), miso (fermented soybean paste), okara (a by-product of tofu), soybean sprouts, soymilk, yuba (by-product of soy milk), kinako (soy flour), and soy sauce. These foods are made from simple processes like grinding, precipitation, and fermentation - thus, most of soy's ingredients remain little altered. Less than 5% of daily calories in the typical diet of Japanese or Chinese people comes from soybeans.1 This amounts to about 2 ounces (55 to 64 grams) derived from soy foods daily, which means only 7 to 8 grams of protein and 15 to 45 milligrams of the estrogen-like phytochemical known as isoflavone. How could this tiny amount of soy food make a measurable difference - positive or negative - to the health of Asians? The primary reason these people are so hardy is that the Asian diet is based on a starch - rice - with generous amounts of vegetables and fruits. Starches are ideal foods for human nutrition and have many desirable nutritional qualities - they are low in fat, moderate in protein, high in carbohydrates, and contain no cholesterol. The Asian diet also contains few animal products. Any unique pharmacologic benefits from eating soy are unnoticeable compared to the impact of these people's overall diet. (For a discussion of the benefits of starches, see my April 2004 newsletter article: People - Not Their Words - Tell "The Carbohydrate Story.") Soy - Detrimental or Beneficial The truth behind soy is clouded by emotional reactions from the anti-soy movement of hard-core meat-eaters and soy-loving vegetarians - and as usual, money from big businesses, the soy manufacturers. Most of the rhetoric on both sides of the argument is of no real importance - the real issue is whether you are consuming small amounts traditional soy foods or making yourself a diet of synthetic foods. The Seven Main Arguments: Argument 1: Anti-nutrients Detrimental: Soy contains "anti-nutrients," which interfere with the digestion of proteins (trypsin inhibitors) and the absorption of minerals (phytic acid). Beneficial: These "anti-nutrient" substances are deactivated by cooking and fermentation. Cooking before consumption is not unique to soybeans - no other beans, peas, or lentils are eaten "raw." Although adverse effects on experimental animals have been demonstrated, there is no direct evidence as to the physiological effects of the trypsin inhibitors on humans.2 Interestingly, Phytic acid has anticancer effects in animal models for both colon and breast cancer.3 Argument 2: Cancer Detrimental: Soy has estrogen-like activity that may promote the growth of estrogen-sensitive cancers (breast and prostate), especially for those people who already have cancer.4-5 Beneficial: Breast and prostate cancer rates are four to six times lower in Japan and China than Western countries. In laboratory studies, isoflavone from soy can inhibit the growth of breast cancer and prostate cancer tissues.6 Argument 3: Heart Disease Detrimental: Benefits on heart disease are largely unproven and are really due to the low-fat, low-cholesterol qualities of the Asian diet. Beneficial: People living in countries with more soy in their diet, for example Japan, have a much lower risk of heart attacks. Experimental research consistently shows soy foods cause a decrease in total and "bad" LDL cholesterol, and an increase in "good" HDL-cholesterol.7-8 Products containing at least 6.25 grams of soy protein per serving are now allowed to carry a FDA-approved claim on their label; stating a low-fat, low-cholesterol diet containing at least 25 grams (about one ounce) of soy protein a day may reduce one's risk of heart disease. Argument 4: Sex Hormones Detrimental: Twelve ounces of soy milk drunk three times a day for one month will decrease a woman's estradiol and progesterone levels, and her menstrual cycle length will be increased by about four days.9 These effects may cause infertility and contribute to bone loss. Beneficial: Chinese and Japanese are among the most prolific baby-makers in the world. Phytoestrogens have both a weak estrogen-stimulating (estrogenic) and paradoxically, an estrogen-inhibiting (anti-estrogenic) activity. The estrogen-like activities may strengthen bones and prevent menopausal symptoms like hot flashes. Hot flashes are reported by 70% to 80% of US menopausal women compared to 10 to 14% of women in Japan and Singapore.10 The anti-estrogen activity reduces the risk of breast and uterine cancer. Argument 5: Thyroid Detrimental: Goiter and hypothyroidism have been reported in infants receiving soy formula. Autoimmune diseases of the thyroid and thyroid cancer may also be caused by exposure to soy.11-12 Beneficial: The addition of adequate iodine to the diet reverses any goiter-causing effects of soy. Population studies suggest soy protects against thyroid cancer.13 Argument 6: Immune System Detrimental: In experimental studies, soy isoflavone suppresses the immune system, and reduces the size of the thymus gland. There are reports of a decrease in antibodies, white blood cells, and other indications of immune system malfunction with soy consumption.14-19 Beneficial: Soy isoflavone enhances the immune response and provides a possible explanation for lower incidence of certain cancers in soy-eating parts of the world.20,21 The pain of arthritis has been helped by soy through modulating the immune system.22 Argument 7: Brain Health Detrimental: A recent study of middle-aged Japanese-Americans living in Hawaii found adults consuming tofu had reduced brain function, accelerated brain aging and some structural changes in their brains that might be related to Alzheimer's disease.23 Beneficial: Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia are less common in Asian compared to Western populations.24 Recent studies have actually shown improvement in brain functions with the use of soy supplements.25,26 In summary, population studies fail to support real-life soy-caused diseases, experimental data is inconsistent, and the larger components of the diet (starches, vegetables, and fruits) are most likely the reason for the superior health of soy consuming peoples. The Whole Is Healthier Than the Parts Over the past two decades there has been an explosion on the supermarket shelves of soy products that resemble our favorite meat and dairy products. I often refer to these as "fake foods." Manufacturing processes remove the dietary fibers, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins, minerals, and hundreds of other helpful plant chemicals - leaving behind almost pure soy protein. These protein concentrates are mixed with extracts of wheat protein, vegetable oils, and sometimes, starch, sugar, salt, artificial sweeteners, and dairy and egg proteins - then the magic of modern technology turns these mixtures into products that look and taste like real cheese, hot dogs, sausages, burgers, luncheon meats, chicken, and turkey. Soy protein is used to replace dairy protein in candy bars, yogurt, ice cream, breads, pastries and cookies. You can identify the synthesized concentrated proteins on the ingredient list of your foods by these words: defatted soy flour, organic textured soy flour, textured vegetable protein, isolated soy protein, soy protein concentrates, and soy concentrates. These new "foods" in no way resemble nature's creations and the effects on your health make that clear. Calcium Loss and Cancer Growth from Protein Concentrates Concentrated dairy (cow-milk) protein, when consumed by people, causes large and important loses of calcium contributing to osteoporosis and kidney stones. You would hope that replacement with soy protein concentrates would eliminate this health hazard. Unfortunately, recent research on people has demonstrated that the addition of 40 grams of concentrated soy protein to a diet, already low in protein (40 to 50 grams daily) and high in calcium (1100 mg daily), causes significant net losses of calcium from the body.27 Other research shows isolated soy protein is just as damaging as meat protein to the bones.28 Another recent study showed how 40 grams of soy or cow-milk protein concentrate added to the diet significantly increases levels of a powerful cancer-promoting growth hormone, called Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 - IGF-1.29 However, soy protein was almost twice as powerful as the milk protein concentrate - doubling the levels of IGF-1 with 40 grams of soy protein isolate. This growth promoter has been strongly linked to the development of cancer of the breast, prostate, lung, and colon.30 Excess IGF-1 stimulates cell proliferation and inhibits cell death - two activities you definitely don't want when cancer cells are involved. 30 What does 40 grams of isolated soy protein mean to you? In real life, a person seeking excellent health by following a low-protein version of the McDougall diet with 1100 mg of calcium (which would have to be added with a calcium supplement) becomes at risk for osteoporosis, kidney stones, and cancer with the daily addition of a soy "candy bar" and a soy shake. One soy "chicken" patty for lunch and 2 soy burgers for dinner will also add that 40 grams of isolated protein daily - and so will just four soy breakfast patties. Now soy has real meaning in your life. The effects of adding soy protein concentrates on people already consuming the bone-losing, high-animal-protein Western diet (100 to 160 grams of protein daily), or worse yet, the Atkins diet (up to 300 grams daily) have yet to be determined.31 Because of the very low incidence of osteoporosis, and breast and prostate cancer, among people who consume traditional soybean foods, there is every reason to believe that only the synthetic soy foods need to be of concern. (Studies have yet to be done to specifically test the effects of traditional foods in laboratory settings - in the meantime, we will keep these as a small part of our diet.) Examples of Common Foods with Protein Isolates Eating "fake foods" adds 40 grams of protein concentrate effortlessly to your diet: Item: Serving: Grams of Protein Desserts and Snacks: Cliff® Builder's Bar 1 bar 20 Cliff® Bar (Oatmeal, Raisin Walnut) 1 bar 10 Revival Soy Bars® 1 bar 17 Atkins Nutrition Bars® 1 bar 21 ZonePerfect Nutrition Bars® 1 bar 15 Revival Soy Shakes® Splenda® 1 shake 20 Meats: Morningstar Farms® Sausage Patties 1 patty 10 Boca© Breakfast Links 1 link 8 Gardenburger® Chik'n Grill 1 patty 13 Boca Burger® Original 1 burger 13 Boca® Ground Burger 2 ounces 13 Boca® Chicken Patties 1 patty 11 Smart Dogs® 1 dog 9 Boca® Chili 1 serving 20 Cheeses: Veggie Shreds® (Cheese) 2 ounces 6 Boca® Pizza 1 slice 13 Tofu with Added Isolates: Lite Tofu® 3 ounces 5 Flour: Benesoy® High Protein Soy Flour 1 ounce 15 Many of these foods also contain an isolated wheat protein (gluten) which has similar effects on calcium loss.32 Pharmaceutical-grade Soy Hormones Phytochemicals found in plants are important ingredients for radiant health, but must be consumed in their natural packages - like the traditional soy foods - to reap the most benefits with the least risks. After isolation from their natural environment - the soybean - these chemicals unquestionably become pharmaceuticals. Manufacturing processes concentrate the pharmacologic ingredients of soy into powerful drugs sold to women to treat menopausal symptoms and osteoporosis. Unfortunately, drugs have side effects. A concentrated preparations of isoflavone, sold as Novasoy®, and mixtures of the active chemicals (isoflavone and/or genistin), have been shown to be strong promoters of breast cancer growth in animals.33 Long-term treatment (up to 5 years) with soy isoflavone preparations was associated with an increased occurrence of endometrial hyperplasia in women - a precancerous condition of the female uterus.34 Soy Infant Formula Soy baby formula is synthesized from pure sugar (corn syrup), oil (safflower), and protein (soy protein isolate) - this is the epitome of "fake food" - especially when considering the potential consequences. Approximately 1.4 million (36%) infants per year in the United States receive soy formula. Because 100% of the dietary protein and isoflavone that the baby gets is from soy, the chemical compounds reach levels many times higher than the levels found in adults who consume soy foods - and even exceed concentrations shown to be toxic in laboratory experiments. For example, daily exposure to estrogen-like compounds from soy formula results in levels 6 to 11 times higher in infants than the level that will cause changes in the menstrual cycle of women.35-36 The reason so little is known about the harmful effects of feeding soy formula to babies is that these effects in real life situations have not been adequately studied. However, some indication of the sensitivity of a baby to soy's estrogen-like effects might be learned from a recent study finding birth defects of the genitalia of male infants (hypospadia) born to mothers who consumed large amounts of soy products.37 Reserve Traditional Soy foods for Special Despite concerns, there is no definite evidence that traditional soy foods are harmful at levels customarily consumed. Consider the hundreds of millions of people living in Japan, consuming soy products throughout their life - and they enjoy the longest life expectancy in the world (Japanese women are expected to live 84.93 years, compared to US women to 79.5 years; and Japanese men to 78.07 years, compared to 74.1 years for US men). However, soybeans and their by-products should be thought of as rich foods - naturally high in fat and protein. In their traditional forms consider them as delicacies - and you should consume them as you might other plant food delicacies - nuts, seeds, avocados, and olives - in small amounts on special occasions. Soybeans Are Nutritionally between a Bean and a Nut These soy items are rich plant foods (look at the fat and protein contents) Food % Fat % Protein % Carbohydrate Pinto Bean 4 24 75 Soybeans 41 35 31 Tofu 57 40 12 Miso 27 23 54 Tempeh 35 38 34 Peanuts 61 17 2 *These do not add to 100% because of the original data used References: 1) Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kurisu Y, Shimizu H. Decreased serum total cholesterol concentration is associated with high intake of soy products in Japanese men and women. J Nutr. 1998 Feb;128(2):209-13. 2) http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0532e/t0532e01.htm 3) Vucenik I, Shamsuddin AM. Cancer inhibition by inositol hexaphosphate (IP6) and inositol: from laboratory to clinic. J Nutr. 2003 Nov;133(11 Suppl 1):3778S-3784S. 4) Newbold R. Uterine adenocarcinoma in mice treated neonatally with genistein. Cancer Res. 2001 Jun 1;61(11):4325-8. 5) Cassileth BR, Vickers AJ. Soy: an anticancer agent in wide use despite some troubling data. Cancer Invest. 2003;21(5):817-8. 6) Adlercreutz H. Phyto-oestrogens and cancer. Lancet Oncol. 2002 Jun;3(6):364-73. 7) Jenkins D. Effects of high- and low-isoflavone soyfoods on blood lipids, oxidized LDL, homocysteine, and blood pressure in hyperlipidemic men and women. Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Aug;76(2):365-72. 8) Anderson JW, Johnstone BM, Cook-Newell ME Meta-analysis of the effects of soy protein intake on serum lipids. N Engl J Med. 1995 Aug 3;333(5):276-82. 9) Lu L. Effects of soya consumption for one month on steroid hormones in premenopausal women: implications for breast cancer risk reduction. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 1996 Jan;5(1):63-70. 10) Glazier M. A review of the evidence for the use of phytoestrogens as a replacement for traditional estrogen replacement therapy. Arch Intern Med. 2001 May 14;161(9):1161-72. 11) Divi R. Anti-thyroid isoflavones from soybean: isolation, characterization, and mechanisms of action. Biochem Pharmacol. 1997 Nov 15;54(10):1087-96. 12) Doerge DR, Sheehan DM. Goitrogenic and estrogenic activity of soy isoflavones. Environ Health Perspect. 2002 Jun;110 Suppl 3:349-53. 13) Horn-Ross PL, Hoggatt KJ, Lee MM. Phytoestrogens and thyroid cancer risk: the San Francisco Bay Area thyroid cancer study. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Jan;11(1):43-9. 14) Yellayi S. The phytoestrogen genistein induces thymic and immune changes: a human health concern? Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2002 May 28;99(11):7616-21. 15) Zoppi G. Immunocompetence and dietary protein intake in early infancy. J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr. 1982;1(2):175-82. 16) Zoppi G. Gammaglobulin level and soy-protein intake in early infancy. Eur J Pediatr. 1979 Apr 25;131(1):61-9. 17) Zoppi G. Diet and antibody response to vaccinations in healthy infants. Lancet. 1983 Jul 2;2(8340):11-4. 18) Fort P. and soy-formula feedings in early infancy and the prevalence of autoimmune thyroid disease in children. J Am Coll Nutr. 1990 Apr;9(2):164-7. 19) Alexandersen P. Ipriflavone in the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2001 Mar 21;285(11):1482-8. 20) Watanabe S, Uesugi S, Kikuchi Y. soflavones for prevention of cancer, cardiovascular diseases, gynecological problems and possible immune potentiation. Biomed Pharmacother. 2002 Aug;56(6):302-12. 21) Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Connelly PW, Jackson CJ, Parker T, Faulkner D, Vidgen E. Effects of high- and low-isoflavone (phytoestrogen) soy foods on inflammatory biomarkers and proinflammatory cytokines in middle-aged men and women. Metabolism. 2002 Jul;51(7):919-24. 22) Arjmandi BH, Khalil DA, Lucas EA, Smith BJ, Sinichi N, Hodges SB, Juma S, Munson ME, Payton ME, Tivis RD, Svanborg A. Soy protein may alleviate osteoarthritis symptoms. Phytomedicine. 2004 Nov;11(7-8):567-75. 23) White LR, Petrovitch H, Ross GW, Masaki K, Hardman J, Nelson J, Davis D, Markesbery W. Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption. J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Apr;19(2):242-55. 24) Jorm AF, Jolley D. The incidence of dementia: a meta-analysis. Neurology. 1998 Sep;51(3):728-33. 25) Kritz-Silverstein D, Von Muhlen D, Barrett-Connor E, Bressel MA. Isoflavones and cognitive function in older women: the SOy and Postmenopausal Health In Aging (SOPHIA) Study. Menopause. 2003 May-Jun;10(3):196-202. 26) File SE, Hartley DE, Elsabagh S, Duffy R, Wiseman H. Cognitive improvement after 6 weeks of soy supplements in postmenopausal women is limited to frontal lobe function. Menopause. 2005;12(2):193-201. 27) Spence LA, Lipscomb ER, Cadogan J, Martin B, Wastney ME, Peacock M, Weaver CM. The effect of soy protein and soy isoflavones on calcium metabolism in postmenopausal women: a randomized crossover study. Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Apr;81(4):916-22. 28) Roughead ZK, Hunt JR, Johnson LK, Badger TM, Lykken GI. Controlled substitution of soy protein for meat protein: effects on calcium retention, bone, and cardiovascular health indices in postmenopausal women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jan;90(1):181-9. Epub 2004 Oct 13. 29) Arjmandi BH, Khalil DA, Smith BJ, Lucas EA, Juma S, Payton ME, Wild RA. Soy protein has a greater effect on bone in postmenopausal women not on hormone replacement therapy, as evidenced by reducing bone resorption and urinary calcium excretion. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Mar;88(3):1048-54. 30) Yu H. Role of the insulin-like growth factor family in cancer development and progression. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2000 Sep 20;92(18):1472-89. 31) Reddy ST. Effect of low-carbohydrate high-protein diets on acid-base balance, stone-forming propensity, and calcium metabolism. Am J Kidney Dis. 2002 Aug;40(2):265-74. 32) Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Vidgen E, Augustin LS, Parker T, Faulkner D, Vieth R, Vandenbroucke AC, Josse RG. Effect of high vegetable protein diets on urinary calcium loss in middle-aged men and women. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2003 Feb;57(2):376-82. 33) Allred CD, Allred KF, Ju YH, Goeppinger TS, Doerge DR, Helferich WG. Soy processing influences growth of estrogen-dependent breast cancer tumors. Carcinogenesis. 2004 Sep;25(9):1649-57. 34) Unfer V, Casini ML, Costabile L, Mignosa M, Gerli S, Di Renzo GC. Endometrial effects of long-term treatment with phytoestrogens: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Fertil Steril. 2004 Jul;82(1):145-8, 35) Setchell K. Exposure of infants to phyto-oestrogens from soy-based infant formula. Lancet. 1997 Jul 5;350(9070):23-7. 36) Chen A, Rogan WJ. Isoflavones in soy infant formula: a review of evidence for endocrine and other activity in infants. Annu Rev Nutr. 2004;24:33-54. 37) North K. A maternal vegetarian diet in pregnancy is associated with hypospadias. The ALSPAC Study Team. Avon Longitudinal Study of Pregnancy and Childhood. BJU Int. 2000 Jan;85(1):107-13. You may to this free McDougall Newsletter at http://www.drmcdougall.com 2005 John McDougall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 The fermentation makes a whole new product. Tempeh is one of them and is quite "meaty".Patricia--- On Tue, 8/4/09, heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:heartwerk <jo.heartwork Re: The soy discussion Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 11:51 PMI don't know what your soy is like in America. I don't know if there are different ways of making tofu - how many ways could there be? Soy is a bean. All beans need to be boiled fast for ten minutes and then cooked thoroughly. I imagine the same applies to soy beans. I don't see why there would be a need to ferment them.Broccoli and chickpeas are also rich sources of phytoeastrogens, but we don't hear any warnings about these, or that they need to be fermented.I have read quite a lot of research on soya beans/products, and I have no worries about drinking soya milk, using soya margarine and ice cream, or using tofu.Jo , "asianikuda" <asianikuda wrote:>> I dont want to offend anyone, but this has been bothering me the last couple days since I became vegan. SO, as im doing my research for vegan protien sources, and soy always comes up. When you google soy, you get lots of articles saying unfermented soy is really bad and so forth. This unfermented soy includes soy milk, tofu, and soy protien.> > But the articles do say the FERMENTED soy products are safe, and healthy. These include tempeh, miso, and natto.> > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm> > I want to know what you all say about SOY.> --Asia-->---To send an email to -! Groups Links<*> /<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: /join ( ID required)<*> To change settings via email: -digest -fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Hi Asia I think most vegans are rather fed up with having to explain over and over again the reasons for mistrusting the research paid for by meat and dairy producers. If you are worried about soya just don't have it. There is plenty of protein in other foods. All food has protein, and if you want more concentrated sources then use nuts, seeds, lentils, legumes, sprouted seeds, rice, barley etc. Jo , " asianikuda " <asianikuda wrote: > > you know, i tried searching for your prior discussions on soy by typing in " soy " into the search space, but all i got was messages that included soy in the recipes. I didnt want to spend all day browsing old messages. its easier to just ask people. > > If you are knowledgable on the topic, it would be nice to hear what you have to say and hear your sources. Its one thing to claim someone is lying because he is associated with non-vegan groups, but you have to have evidence against what he says. and hes not the only one, im sure. > > Asia > > , " flower child " <zurumato@> wrote: > > > > Dr. Mercola is an Anti-vegetarian, Anti-Vegan and he is an avid supporter of the " Raw milk " movement and he is a fan and supports the Weston A. Price Foundation. > > > > Be careful where you get your sources. In the Weston Price webpage they have a section dedicated to the " dangers " of being vegetarian and how wonderful pig lard is.. but they guy who wrote it died from a stroke at the age of 40. > > > > This has been discussed in this group here before and you could do a search on it for more information. > > > > Anouk > > > > > > > , " asianikuda " <asianikuda@> wrote: > > > > > > >> > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many articles on this, but heres one such article: http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm > > > > > > > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. > > > > --Asia-- > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Thanks, that was a good article.Patricia--- On Wed, 8/5/09, fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:fraggle <EBbrewpunxRe: Re: The soy discussion Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 8:37 AM Interview: The Place of Soy in the Health Food Arena By Josh Day on October 06, 2008 Healthy Eating Resources Health & Beyond editor Josh Day recently sat down with Dr. Kim to ask him a few questions on a topic that's always hot in the health food world. We're talking about soy... what it is, what it does in your body, and why you see soy this and soy that on almost every aisle of your local health food store. Let's jump straight into the interview, shall we? Josh: What exactly is soy? Dr. Kim: Soybeans are legumes - they look like peas in a pod, but they're larger. Soybeans are rich in protein, omega-3 fatty acids, tryptophan, fiber, iron, and a bunch of other minerals. All of the soy products on the market today - soy milk, tofu, soy sauce, miso, tempeh - they're made using soybeans, and in most cases, additional ingredients are added. Josh: What’s up with everything we hear about fermented and unfermented soy? Dr. Kim: Foods made with fermented soy are thought to be healthier than those made with unfermented soy. Examples of foods made with fermented soy are miso, tempeh, and naturally brewed soy sauce. Tofu and soy milk are examples of foods made with unfermented soy, although sometimes, tofu, once it’s made, is fermented to produce fermented tofu dishes in East Asian cooking – mostly Chinese. Josh: Is soy as good for you as many in the health food movement would have us believe? Dr. Kim: To me, soy is just another food. I think that you can eat soy and be healthy, but you don’t need to eat it to be healthy. Josh: In health food stores you see "soy" everything -- soy milk, soy dairy, etc. Many people, especially vegans, consume soy as if it were oxygen. They think they're doing their body good but perhaps they're not? Dr. Kim: Right, I think the most important point here is that it’s best to eat a variety of foods. Anytime you eat too much of one specific food, especially if that food is rich in protein, you may increase your risk of eventually becoming intolerant to that food. I’ve seen this happen to people with soy milk, tahini, almonds, and a number of other protein-dense foods. Lots of processed foods made with soy – like meat-substitutes – they’re made with soy protein isolate, which is a highly processed food that can’t be as good for us as soybeans that are minimally or naturally processed. Fermentation is a “natural†type of processing that doesn’t have the potential to hurt the nutrient value of soybeans the way that high temperature processing techniques do. I think I know what you’re getting at with this question. Some people become vegan and turn to soy cheese, soy burgers, soy hot dogs, soy nuggets, soy ice cream, soy yogurt, soy everything to feel like they aren’t depriving themselves of foods that they enjoyed in the past. The vast majority of these highly processed foods are made with soy protein isolate and preservatives, and in my opinion, they’re no better than French fries, donuts, and regular fast food fare. Josh: Is "soy" milk or "soy" cheese any better than, say, the bottled parmesan "cheese" that comes in a cardboard can? Dr. Kim: Soy milk - if it’s made with whole, organic soy beans and it’s not sweetened - I think can be a healthy food choice. But again, the key is to drink it in moderation. A cup or two of good soy milk a few times a week in your smoothies or on your cereal is fine, in my opinion. Soy milk that is made with soy protein isolate and/or has added sugar, even if the sugar is from a “natural†source, like evaporated cane juice, is probably no better for us than Tang. In fact, if it’s made with soy protein isolate, it‘s probably worse than Tang, because with Tang, you aren’t getting highly processed protein into your system. Soy cheese – my understanding is that some brands of soy cheese contain casein, the protein found in animal milk. And casein is problematic for a lot of people. If you’re going to eat soy cheese, I would say to pick a brand that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans. And again, I would recommend eating it in moderation, say a couple of times a week at most. Parmesan cheese – I don’t know much about how the parmesan cheese that comes in a cardboard can is made, so I can’t say how healthy a food choice it is. What I can say is that any food that is made with pasteurized milk isn’t a great choice because it contains casein that’s been heated at a high temperature. I think that Dr. T. Colin Campbell of The China Study believes that there’s a strong association between casein intake and risk of different types of cancer and other degenerative diseases. I tend to agree with this, but I can’t say the same thing about raw dairy products. Casein that is unheated and found in milk that comes from a healthy animal that is allowed to live in a natural setting may be just fine – just look at groups of people out there – mostly Caucasians – who live long and healthy lives with raw dairy as staples – this includes different types of cheese made with raw dairy. If you’re asking me to compare soy cheese that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans vs. Parmesan cheese that’s grated fresh from one of those big cylindrical blocks made with raw milk, the kind that you see on one of those Food Network travel shows (I think Malto Mario did one of those – is he really Italian? Because he looks Irish to me – Margaret and I have a running bet on this), then I think the answer just depends on each person’s physiology. For me, being of Asian descent, soy cheese is probably a healthier choice than Parmesan cheese. And for you, being Caucasian, assuming that you aren’t lactose-intolerant, fresh Parmesan cheese is probably the better choice. Just so you know, I don’t eat soy or dairy cheese. Well, sometimes, I get a bit in some food at a restaurant, but this probably happens about once a year at most. Josh: Do you use soy products in your home? If so, what kinds, and do you believe there is any health benefit? Dr. Kim: Sure, we use den jang, which is the Korean version of miso – it’s a paste that’s made with fermented soy beans. We get it from a Korean market in Toronto in a big tub. It’s made in Korea with organic soybeans. Mostly, we use it to make den jang soup, which is made by boiling onions, zucchini, spinach, and sometimes some mushrooms in vegetable broth, and adding some of the paste after the vegetables are ready and the heat is turned off. You have to smear the soybean paste along the sides of the pot to get it to blend in with the rest of the soap. Or what Margaret does is she holds a medium size strainer in the soup and uses a spoon to push the den jang through the strainer as it dissolves into the broth. We also use soy sauce – we usually use Kikkoman – it’s naturally fermented for several months. When we use soy sauce, we use just a bit, just to add a little flavour. You know you’ve used too much if you wake up the next morning with a swollen face. I did this once when I lived in Korea. Naturally fermented soy sauce and den jang are rich in friendly bacteria, and den jang is rich in protein, iron, tryptophan – all of the nutrients that I mentioned before are in soybeans – I guess those are the health benefits. Oh, and soy sauce, if it’s made properly, is extremely rich in naturally occurring antioxidants – it’s a much richer source of antioxidants than most types of red wine. Josh: I love fried rice. A lot of people don't know fried rice is simply cooked rice, white or brown, stir fried in a wok or hibachi grill with soy sauce. Now, I've heard soy sauce is not good for you. Is this true? Dr. Kim: I think that it mostly depends on the brand that you use. Some companies make soy sauce by boiling soybeans for a day before adding color and artificial flavors – some of these brands contain MSG or compounds that very closely resemble MSG. Most brands of soy sauce are pretty high in salt, so it’s best to use small bits at a time. People who have health issues that are exacerbated by significant salt intake should probably avoid soy sauce. Also, a few years ago, a government agency in the U.K. found that some brands of soy sauce contained dangerous amounts of a couple of different chemicals. The thing is, these chemicals were found in brands that were made with the short-cut method. Bottom line: if you use small amounts of a high quality soy sauce that’s been fermented over several months, I think this is fine for most people. Josh: How prevalent is soy in Korean cooking? I see soy sauce in Japanese and Chinese food all the time. Dr. Kim: I think that it’s used about as often as we use it. Den Jang (miso) is used to make soup, which is probably eaten a few times a week in most Korean homes. Soy sauce is used to add flavour to some dishes, almost always in small amounts. Soy sauce is also used as a part of marinades for various meat dishes. Ah, and tofu – we sometimes add little cubes of tofu to our soups, and sometimes, Koreans will make a separate side dish with tofu – sometimes cooked, sometimes raw with a sauce that’s made with soy sauce, sesame seeds, and green onions. Josh: What's the relationship between soy and MSG? Dr. Kim: My understanding is that quality brands of naturally fermented soy sauce don’t have added MSG or MSG-like compounds. Cheaper brands use hydrolyzed vegetable protein, which behaves like MSG in the body. Unless you’ve been eating foods with MSG for a long time, it’s likely that your body will let you know whenever you eat something that has added MSG or an MSG-like substance. Some of the more common symptoms that people experience after eating MSG are pounding headaches, heart palpitations, sweating, a flushed feeling, nausea, weakness, and shortness of breath. Several people have told me that they tend to have really crazy dreams whenever they eat MSG – this makes sense, as MSG is considered an excitotoxin that can rapidly stimulate brain tissue. Bottom line: if you use a high quality, naturally fermented soy sauce, and you use it sparingly, you probably don’t have to worry about getting MSG from soy sauce. "Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Hi Asia Personally I don't have time to go through it all again - it comes up every couple of months, so it shouldn't be too hard to find in the archives. I'm quite happy with what I know, and don't feel a need to research it further, or to " prove myself " against anti-vegan propaganda. You're the one doing the research, so go ahead and do it - the key to good research is checking both sides of an argument thoroughly, and not just accepting the first thing you read. You can't always expect answers to be handed to you on a plate. BB Peter - " asianikuda " <asianikuda Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:00 AM Re: The soy discussion > you know, i tried searching for your prior discussions on soy by typing in > " soy " into the search space, but all i got was messages that included soy > in the recipes. I didnt want to spend all day browsing old messages. its > easier to just ask people. > > If you are knowledgable on the topic, it would be nice to hear what you > have to say and hear your sources. Its one thing to claim someone is lying > because he is associated with non-vegan groups, but you have to have > evidence against what he says. and hes not the only one, im sure. > > Asia > > , " flower child " <zurumato wrote: >> >> Dr. Mercola is an Anti-vegetarian, Anti-Vegan and he is an avid supporter >> of the " Raw milk " movement and he is a fan and supports the Weston A. >> Price Foundation. >> >> Be careful where you get your sources. In the Weston Price webpage they >> have a section dedicated to the " dangers " of being vegetarian and how >> wonderful pig lard is.. but they guy who wrote it died from a stroke at >> the age of 40. >> >> This has been discussed in this group here before and you could do a >> search on it for more information. >> >> Anouk >> >> >> > , " asianikuda " <asianikuda@> wrote: >> > > >> >> > Its seems every vegan recipe calls for tofu, but tofu is unfermented >> >> > and claimed by many to be dangerous. They say that the healthy asian >> >> > communities that do eat soy, eat mostly fermented soy, and the stuff >> >> > being sold here (in the US) is not a health food. There are many >> >> > articles on this, but heres one such article: >> >> > http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm >> > > >> > > I want to know what you all say about SOY. >> > > --Asia-- >> > > >> > >> > > > > > --- > > To send an email to > -! Groups Links > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Hi Asia The basis of any nutrition is to have a varied diet. What I'm not quite clear on, though - did you ask the question about soy to get answers, or did you ask it so you could promote an anti-soy stance? Because it does seem somewhat like the latter at the moment. BB Peter - " asianikuda " <asianikuda Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:51 AM Re: The soy discussion Well, its seems that based on the interview with Dr.Kim that which i said before in confirmed. Soy is to be eaten in moderation-only a couple times a week at most; not every day in the form of soy cheese, soy meat, and soy yogurt...Also, she says the asian people eat unfermented soy rarely, and only fermented soy is used on a regular basis (miso and soy sauce). The arguments here seem very logical because i believe in the old saying " everything in moderation " . Especially processed foods like soy products. I dont think it could be reasonable to think that having a soy milk/ soy tofu smoothie in the morning, then soy burgers for lunch, and some soy cheese for dinner is a healthy lifestyle. Asia Interview: The Place of Soy in the Health Food Arena By Josh Day on October 06, 2008 Healthy Eating Resources Health & Beyond editor Josh Day recently sat down with Dr. Kim to ask him a few questions on a topic that's always hot in the health food world. We're talking about soy... what it is, what it does in your body, and why you see soy this and soy that on almost every aisle of your local health food store. Let's jump straight into the interview, shall we? Josh: What exactly is soy? Dr. Kim: Soybeans are legumes - they look like peas in a pod, but they're larger. Soybeans are rich in protein, omega-3 fatty acids, tryptophan, fiber, iron, and a bunch of other minerals. All of the soy products on the market today - soy milk, tofu, soy sauce, miso, tempeh - they're made using soybeans, and in most cases, additional ingredients are added. Josh: Whatâ?Ts up with everything we hear about fermented and unfermented soy? Dr. Kim: Foods made with fermented soy are thought to be healthier than those made with unfermented soy. Examples of foods made with fermented soy are miso, tempeh, and naturally brewed soy sauce. Tofu and soy milk are examples of foods made with unfermented soy, although sometimes, tofu, once itâ?Ts made, is fermented to produce fermented tofu dishes in East Asian cooking â? " mostly Chinese. Josh: Is soy as good for you as many in the health food movement would have us believe? Dr. Kim: To me, soy is just another food. I think that you can eat soy and be healthy, but you donâ?Tt need to eat it to be healthy. Josh: In health food stores you see " soy " everything -- soy milk, soy dairy, etc. Many people, especially vegans, consume soy as if it were oxygen. They think they're doing their body good but perhaps they're not? Dr. Kim: Right, I think the most important point here is that itâ?Ts best to eat a variety of foods. Anytime you eat too much of one specific food, especially if that food is rich in protein, you may increase your risk of eventually becoming intolerant to that food. Iâ?Tve seen this happen to people with soy milk, tahini, almonds, and a number of other protein-dense foods. Lots of processed foods made with soy â? " like meat-substitutes â? " theyâ?Tre made with soy protein isolate, which is a highly processed food that canâ?Tt be as good for us as soybeans that are minimally or naturally processed. Fermentation is a â?onaturalâ? type of processing that doesnâ?Tt have the potential to hurt the nutrient value of soybeans the way that high temperature processing techniques do. I think I know what youâ?Tre getting at with this question. Some people become vegan and turn to soy cheese, soy burgers, soy hot dogs, soy nuggets, soy ice cream, soy yogurt, soy everything to feel like they arenâ?Tt depriving themselves of foods that they enjoyed in the past. The vast majority of these highly processed foods are made with soy protein isolate and preservatives, and in my opinion, theyâ?Tre no better than French fries, donuts, and regular fast food fare. Josh: Is " soy " milk or " soy " cheese any better than, say, the bottled parmesan " cheese " that comes in a cardboard can? Dr. Kim: Soy milk - if itâ?Ts made with whole, organic soy beans and itâ?Ts not sweetened - I think can be a healthy food choice. But again, the key is to drink it in moderation. A cup or two of good soy milk a few times a week in your smoothies or on your cereal is fine, in my opinion. Soy milk that is made with soy protein isolate and/or has added sugar, even if the sugar is from a â?onaturalâ? source, like evaporated cane juice, is probably no better for us than Tang. In fact, if itâ?Ts made with soy protein isolate, itâ?~s probably worse than Tang, because with Tang, you arenâ?Tt getting highly processed protein into your system. Soy cheese â? " my understanding is that some brands of soy cheese contain casein, the protein found in animal milk. And casein is problematic for a lot of people. If youâ?Tre going to eat soy cheese, I would say to pick a brand that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans. And again, I would recommend eating it in moderation, say a couple of times a week at most. Parmesan cheese â? " I donâ?Tt know much about how the parmesan cheese that comes in a cardboard can is made, so I canâ?Tt say how healthy a food choice it is. What I can say is that any food that is made with pasteurized milk isnâ?Tt a great choice because it contains casein thatâ?Ts been heated at a high temperature. I think that Dr. T. Colin Campbell of The China Study believes that thereâ?Ts a strong association between casein intake and risk of different types of cancer and other degenerative diseases. I tend to agree with this, but I canâ?Tt say the same thing about raw dairy products. Casein that is unheated and found in milk that comes from a healthy animal that is allowed to live in a natural setting may be just fine â? " just look at groups of people out there â? " mostly Caucasians â? " who live long and healthy lives with raw dairy as staples â? " this includes different types of cheese made with raw dairy. If youâ?Tre asking me to compare soy cheese that is casein-free and made with soy milk that is made with whole, organic soy beans vs. Parmesan cheese thatâ?Ts grated fresh from one of those big cylindrical blocks made with raw milk, the kind that you see on one of those Food Network travel shows (I think Malto Mario did one of those â? " is he really Italian? Because he looks Irish to me â? " Margaret and I have a running bet on this), then I think the answer just depends on each personâ?Ts physiology. For me, being of Asian descent, soy cheese is probably a healthier choice than Parmesan cheese. And for you, being Caucasian, assuming that you arenâ?Tt lactose-intolerant, fresh Parmesan cheese is probably the better choice. Just so you know, I donâ?Tt eat soy or dairy cheese. Well, sometimes, I get a bit in some food at a restaurant, but this probably happens about once a year at most. Josh: Do you use soy products in your home? If so, what kinds, and do you believe there is any health benefit? Dr. Kim: Sure, we use den jang, which is the Korean version of miso â? " itâ?Ts a paste thatâ?Ts made with fermented soy beans. We get it from a Korean market in Toronto in a big tub. Itâ?Ts made in Korea with organic soybeans. Mostly, we use it to make den jang soup, which is made by boiling onions, zucchini, spinach, and sometimes some mushrooms in vegetable broth, and adding some of the paste after the vegetables are ready and the heat is turned off. You have to smear the soybean paste along the sides of the pot to get it to blend in with the rest of the soap. Or what Margaret does is she holds a medium size strainer in the soup and uses a spoon to push the den jang through the strainer as it dissolves into the broth. We also use soy sauce â? " we usually use Kikkoman â? " itâ?Ts naturally fermented for several months. When we use soy sauce, we use just a bit, just to add a little flavour. You know youâ?Tve used too much if you wake up the next morning with a swollen face. I did this once when I lived in Korea. Naturally fermented soy sauce and den jang are rich in friendly bacteria, and den jang is rich in protein, iron, tryptophan â? " all of the nutrients that I mentioned before are in soybeans â? " I guess those are the health benefits. Oh, and soy sauce, if itâ?Ts made properly, is extremely rich in naturally occurring antioxidants â? " itâ?Ts a much richer source of antioxidants than most types of red wine. Josh: I love fried rice. A lot of people don't know fried rice is simply cooked rice, white or brown, stir fried in a wok or hibachi grill with soy sauce. Now, I've heard soy sauce is not good for you. Is this true? Dr. Kim: I think that it mostly depends on the brand that you use. Some companies make soy sauce by boiling soybeans for a day before adding color and artificial flavors â? " some of these brands contain MSG or compounds that very closely resemble MSG. Most brands of soy sauce are pretty high in salt, so itâ?Ts best to use small bits at a time. People who have health issues that are exacerbated by significant salt intake should probably avoid soy sauce. Also, a few years ago, a government agency in the U.K. found that some brands of soy sauce contained dangerous amounts of a couple of different chemicals. The thing is, these chemicals were found in brands that were made with the short-cut method. Bottom line: if you use small amounts of a high quality soy sauce thatâ?Ts been fermented over several months, I think this is fine for most people. Josh: How prevalent is soy in Korean cooking? I see soy sauce in Japanese and Chinese food all the time. Dr. Kim: I think that itâ?Ts used about as often as we use it. Den Jang (miso) is used to make soup, which is probably eaten a few times a week in most Korean homes. Soy sauce is used to add flavour to some dishes, almost always in small amounts. Soy sauce is also used as a part of marinades for various meat dishes. Ah, and tofu â? " we sometimes add little cubes of tofu to our soups, and sometimes, Koreans will make a separate side dish with tofu â? " sometimes cooked, sometimes raw with a sauce thatâ?Ts made with soy sauce, sesame seeds, and green onions. Josh: What's the relationship between soy and MSG? Dr. Kim: My understanding is that quality brands of naturally fermented soy sauce donâ?Tt have added MSG or MSG-like compounds. Cheaper brands use hydrolyzed vegetable protein, which behaves like MSG in the body. Unless youâ?Tve been eating foods with MSG for a long time, itâ?Ts likely that your body will let you know whenever you eat something that has added MSG or an MSG-like substance. Some of the more common symptoms that people experience after eating MSG are pounding headaches, heart palpitations, sweating, a flushed feeling, nausea, weakness, and shortness of breath. Several people have told me that they tend to have really crazy dreams whenever they eat MSG â? " this makes sense, as MSG is considered an excitotoxin that can rapidly stimulate brain tissue. Bottom line: if you use a high quality, naturally fermented soy sauce, and you use it sparingly, you probably donâ?Tt have to worry about getting MSG from soy sauce. " Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me. " --- To send an email to -! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 how about we put something in the files with a standard "boiler plate" response to the soy discussion? the pros and cons, the various discusions. no sense in folks getting all ruffled. soy definately has taken over from the old "is beer vegan?" as the most asked question. since folks are always gonna ask and question, since that's a big deal in our diets and there is so much bad info out there, do you think it would be good if we had a basic standard answer ready? "Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Hi fraggleThat's a really good plan... maybe some of those links that Anouk sent in?BBPeter2009/8/6 fraggle <EBbrewpunx how about we put something in the files with a standard " boiler plate " response to the soy discussion? the pros and cons, the various discusions. no sense in folks getting all ruffled. soy definately has taken over from the old " is beer vegan? " as the most asked question. since folks are always gonna ask and question, since that's a big deal in our diets and there is so much bad info out there, do you think it would be good if we had a basic standard answer ready? " Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Peter, i think you are taking a simple question too sensitively. The fact is, like i said, I am new to this, and I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS. that was in my intro. i thought thats what this group is for, discussing the things that concern vegans. I was actually quiet surprised to find your files section so bare. i thought that a group with this many members would have much more info on this subject saved somewhere. trust me, that was the first place i looked. i did a quick search of the groups files and prior discussions and did not find what i was looking for. now i am being accussed of starting an " anit-soy " campaign. Do you know what that sounds like! that is quite an accusation, especialy to a new person. that is quiet hurtful. i think its better u be nice to newbies, not push them away. if you are true vegan, u would want more people to be vegan, not push people away. your lack of understanding my situation is hurtful. this kind of " high horse-know-it-all behavior " is what ive heard many vegans get called. that is not a reputation u want for your self, or for the vegan community. I hope other people hear are more courteous. i dont believe all vegans are like that (at least im not like that) no one is making you answer my questions if they are too old and boring for you. but if u do take the time to read what i say, please be respectfull. ---asia--- , Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi fraggle > > That's a really good plan... maybe some of those links that Anouk sent in? > > BB > Peter > > 2009/8/6 fraggle <EBbrewpunx > > > > > > > how about we put something in the files with a standard " boiler plate " > > response to the soy discussion? the pros and cons, the various discusions. > > > > no sense in folks getting all ruffled. > > > > soy definately has taken over from the old " is beer vegan? " as the most > > asked question. > > > > since folks are always gonna ask and question, since that's a big deal in > > our diets and there is so much bad info out there, do you think it would be > > good if we had a basic standard answer ready? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me. " > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 I found a few sources about soy. There is so much woo-woo out there I focus on research institutions. This is probably just my personal bias as a bio grad, but I tend to distrust health claims from people who aren't well educated in science. The Mayo Clinic summarized research about soy. Basically, they find that soy is a good dietary protein source. They also feel research showing it reduces cholesterol is valid. They don't find much convincing evidence about other health claims for soy, positive or negative. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/soy/NS_patient-soy/DSECTION=evidence. They appear to have gotten their information from the NIH: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-soy.html. The US Dept of HHS has a summary site about soy research available at http://www.ahrq.gov/Clinic/epcsums/soysum.htm. This isn't the easiest read, but it seems to say the same as the Mayo Clinic site. The USDA gives soy a glowing review (http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=18219 & pf=1 & cg_id=0 <http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=18219 & pf=1 & cg_id=0>) I tend to be suspicious about them because I feel they're more interested in agribusiness than consumers, but FWIW there isn't anything negative on this site about soy. The Linus Pauling Institute (Pauling won a Nobel prize in chemistry for his work on chemical bonds) finds the same -- some benefits for cholesterol, and not enough is known about potential hazards (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/soyiso/#safety) I also searched the Science News archives for information about soy. There isn't much there that these other sites don't mention, except for one study that looked at the effects of eating the leaves of the soy plant. I didn't read that one. All in all, what I'm not seeing is a whole lot of discussion about the dangers of soy. I think that if soy were known to be generally hazardous, these sites would detail it. There are some instances where they feel soy should be limited, such as people being treated for breast cancer with certain medications. Based on that, I'm voting with my stomach. A nice soycream sandwich sounds good about now... Cheers, Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Good idea Fraggle - also maybe the information on beer. Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Hi Trish Thanks for the links. I note the Linus Pauling one about 'not enough known about potential hazards' is actually referring to supplementation with soya isoflavins, not actual consumption as food. Jo , bantrymoon <bantrymoon wrote: > > I found a few sources about soy. There is so much woo-woo out there I > focus on research institutions. This is probably just my personal bias > as a bio grad, but I tend to distrust health claims from people who > aren't well educated in science. > > The Mayo Clinic summarized research about soy. Basically, they find that > soy is a good dietary protein source. They also feel research showing it > reduces cholesterol is valid. They don't find much convincing evidence > about other health claims for soy, positive or negative. > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/soy/NS_patient-soy/DSECTION=evidence. > They appear to have gotten their information from the NIH: > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-soy.html. > > The US Dept of HHS has a summary site about soy research available at > http://www.ahrq.gov/Clinic/epcsums/soysum.htm. This isn't the easiest > read, but it seems to say the same as the Mayo Clinic site. > > The USDA gives soy a glowing review > (http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=18219 & pf=1 & cg_id=0 > <http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=18219 & pf=1 & cg_id=0>) I tend > to be suspicious about them because I feel they're more interested in > agribusiness than consumers, but FWIW there isn't anything negative on > this site about soy. > > The Linus Pauling Institute (Pauling won a Nobel prize in chemistry for > his work on chemical bonds) finds the same -- some benefits for > cholesterol, and not enough is known about potential hazards > (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/soyiso/#safety) > > I also searched the Science News archives for information about soy. > There isn't much there that these other sites don't mention, except for > one study that looked at the effects of eating the leaves of the soy > plant. I didn't read that one. > > All in all, what I'm not seeing is a whole lot of discussion about the > dangers of soy. I think that if soy were known to be generally > hazardous, these sites would detail it. There are some instances where > they feel soy should be limited, such as people being treated for breast > cancer with certain medications. > > Based on that, I'm voting with my stomach. A nice soycream sandwich > sounds good about now... > > Cheers, > > Trish > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.