TRY GUINEA PIGS IF YOU NEED A PET. the cat/dog/horse culture is now globally irresponsible... ? meat farms are given to the poor and unwanted and wild animals set free...

January 9, 2010

not lonely now tim. 2 of us. cats are a huge global problem. an epidemic.

keep a guinea pigs instead... let it eat the lawn and save more power and the earth...

if some pet owners on this list hadn't been so keen to call omnivores murderers... i would probably not have raised this touchy issue....

now the CAT is out the bag...

(one thing i would like to say... i have a very special friend with a cat... who i love dearly... i would never... ever... want her to end her close loving relationship with that loving animal caught in man's empire... as she is vegan... (not cat)...she has my full support whilst these creatures reside together in close harmony... i would not support any killing of animals... i love them too much...)

.... but i think that the cat/dog/horse culture is now globally irresponsible... and should be abandoned and we should return to a vegan economy... where 80% of the meat farms are given to the poor and unwanted and wild animals set free...

duck tim....

TRY GUINEA PIGS IF YOU NEED A NEW PET. saves lives... lessens your global footprint... reduces factory farming... frees lands... saves forests... common sense or not?

Kindness... The Divine Plan.col sky^*

-

Tim Whitley

Veganzchat

Sunday, January 10, 2010 11:18 AM

Re: [Veganzchat] Murder, killing, slaughter...

There is entirely too much time wasted on cats and dogs. Colin is right, this is a lonely position that I have taken, but I stand to it. The strong survive... the Comanche, the Apache, the Maori... Noah... it is the law of nature. Adapt or die. Us humans have to adapt to veganism or die as a race... so to that end you are right that a vegan world is the solution.

2010/1/10 linda.paul <linda.paul

Unfortunately it’s not an illusion Tim. Sadly I have repeatedly witnessed the skeletal cats and dogs who have lost their caregivers and no-one has stepped in to help them out. The majority of once-domesticated dogs and cats die when they are abandoned or lost without the help of humans. Those who survive are very successful hunters…so whether it’s factory farmed animals, free-range animals or “natural prey” (birds, mice, rats, lizards, insects, etc) – animals will die.

I keep reiterating it, but the answer in a vegan world is vegan cat food – not allowing the stray carnivorous animals to slowly starve to death. At this stage in the slow evolution of human compassion, I see no satisfactory answer.

Love Linda.

www.animalrehoming.co.nz

Veganzchat [Veganzchat ] On Behalf Of Tim WhitleySaturday, 9 January 2010 10:40 p.m.Veganzchat

Re: [Veganzchat] Murder, killing, slaughter...

I think they are more adaptable than you think, just like humans, who are extremely adaptable to any situation. They are very adaptable to whatever environment they get into. Giving them love doesn't mean you have to pet or feed them, which has a reverse effect... it keeps them from adapting. And yes their numbers will decrease without human involvement, but the last thing we want to do is feed them factory farmed animal products, and that's what's been happening. That's more horrible than letting them revert to nature. So the fact you think we need to take care of them is an illusion in my opinion.

2010/1/9 Steve & Kerri <steve.kerri

/You walk your way and the animals walk their way./That sounds great, but we've pretty much taken over the world. Catsand dogs have no choice but to rely on humans because that's the onlychoice we've left them after thousands of years of domestication.I see it as something that's a done deal - I can't reverse domesticationor urban development but I can contribute to rescuing animals that wouldotherwise have a miserable life of scavenging. It's been bred into themto love, trust and rely on humans. Even if everyone collectively (forthe long-term good) decided to turn the cats and dogs free and not helpthem/touch them at all, how long would it take for their wildness torevert, for them to re-learn self-sufficiency? And do they all headinto the bush and live on birds? Plus the first generations would sufferunnecessarily.It's like possums - they're here already, due to human stupidity. But ahumane solution has to be found so that our deeds don't inflictsuffering on the animals who resulted (and still are born every day)from our stupidity. We can de-sex cats and dogs to hope for a long-termsolution, but I can't stand by and let animals who exist and need help*now*, go hungry.Kerri./

/Tim Whitley wrote:>>> Then you are killing animals by purchasing animal based foods in order> to selectively save other animals. I would rather not have that karma> on me. Also, Muslims would never touch a dog as it is written within> the teachings of Muhammad. I am not either religion but can see the> logic behind it. When I spent time in India everyone was told to not> touch any dogs or cats, otherwise they will be in the habit of> approaching humans for various reasons, and therefore they would be> inclined to attack humans as well. You walk your way and the animals> walk their way. So, you are in this culture and making good decisions> based on what you believe, which is good, but I just have a different> belief. I believe that the eastern idea is a better long term> solution, as I have seen the workings of it first hand.>> 2010/1/9 linda.paul <linda.paul

> <linda.paul>

>>>> That would work if you lived in an isolated area where cats and> dogs had never been in contact with humans.>>>> If we all ignored the lost and stray cats in our neighbourhoods,> most of them would perish (I have intervened too late on numerous> occasions). Like many humans who could not survive without a> supermarket and heating in the winter, many previously> domesticated cats and dogs cannot survive without our input. It’s> too late to expect “pet” cats and dogs to manage on their own once> we have cared for them. These photos are of two such cats (Scratch> who was dying of starvation & Snow) who were previously cared for.> Check the website under HAPPY ENDINGS for Scratch and under CATS> for ADOPTION for Snow to see how they turned out when human care> was resumed. www.animalrehoming.co.nz

> <http://www.animalrehoming.co.nz/>

>>>> The dog pictured previously relied on a human for her food. Sadly,> she became too malnourished and ill to recover when her> “caregiver” left town and everyone ignored her. Her sad story is> under NEWS www.animalrehoming.co.nz

> <http://www.animalrehoming.co.nz/>

>>>> Totally ignoring these and hundreds of others causes immense> suffering to the animals who have come to rely on us.>>>> Love Linda>>>>>> ------>> ** Veganzchat > <Veganzchat >

> [Veganzchat

> <Veganzchat >] *On Behalf Of *Tim Whitley> *Sent:* Saturday, 9 January 2010 2:51 p.m.>

> *To:* Veganzchat <Veganzchat >

> *Subject:* Re: [Veganzchat] Murder, killing, slaughter...>>>> I believe in totality ignoring them, which means not touching,> petting, or feeding dogs and cats at all. This is the only way> they will as a specie learn to not approach humans for any of> their needs and become self sufficient.>> 2010/1/9 linda.paul <linda.paul

> <linda.paul>

>>>> Yes, Tim, you are entirely right. One of the solutions IS to> reduce the reproduction of domestic cats and this needs to be a> priority. Those of us working at the coalface of cat rescue are> lobbying for it to be illegal for anyone to have entire cats in> their care. Also for it to be illegal for pet shops to sell entire> kittens or for rescue agencies to re-home entire cats or kittens.> We endlessly trap and de-sex stray cat populations. But stopping> reproduction won’t solve the dilemma of what to feed existing> non-vegan cats.>>>> I would never consider saving a carnivorous domestic pet. What is> the opposite to saving? Abandoning? Disposing of? Ignoring?>>>> Truly wild (feral) cats and dogs may well take care of themselves,> but abandoned or lost, domesticated cats and their offspring have> horrific lives - unless someone in the neighbourhood takes> responsibility for them. We can all be part of the> de-sexing/rescue solution by not ignoring their plight.>>>> Well, much as we don’t want carnivorous animals (human or> non-human) in our home either, we do regularly have both here.> Until we have vegan utopia we do the best we can with what is> available.>>>> Love Linda>

> www.animalrehoming.co.nz <http://www.animalrehoming.co.nz>

>> ------>> ** Veganzchat > <Veganzchat >

> [Veganzchat

> <Veganzchat >] *On Behalf Of *Tim Whitley> *Sent:* Saturday, 9 January 2010 11:01 a.m.

> *To:* Veganzchat <Veganzchat >

>>> *Subject:* Re: [Veganzchat] Murder, killing, slaughter...>>>> Isn't the solution to reduce their reproduction ? That seems to> be of higher priority, as well as reducing the demand for those> animals in the first place, which is at the root of the issue.>>> I have reluctantly obtained a few vegan animals for my kids, but> would never introduce a carnivorous one in the house, this is a> natural way to reduce their numbers if more people followed this> when getting pets. I would never consider saving a carnivorous> domestic pet, as they cause too many broad scope problems, and> makes them dependent on people.>> As for wild animals, and wild cats and dogs, they just take care> of themselves.>> *On Behalf Of *colin sky>> *however... if man eats meat = murderer*>> *if linda buys meat for cat to eat =whatever will keep them alive*>> Colin, you are absolutely right in stating that feeding> slaughtered animals to cats supports the murderous industry…and> every vegetarian/vegan who has rescued non-vegan cats in their> care is excruciatingly aware of this.>> Can you not imagine how thoroughly stressful it is for vegans to> HAVE to give butchered animals to unwell and homeless cats who> will not go vegan? Can you not see that this is a hideous dilemma> for a vegan to be in? Doesn’t it stimulate your empathy and make> you want to fight even harder for a mainstream vegan world, so> that the production of tasty vegan cat foods is the norm?>> I wonder what your solution would be if a skeletal cat arrived in> your garden of insect-killing birds. Would you kill the cat if it> wouldn’t accept vegan food…or just watch it die? I currently have> a three-legged cat in my care who was in that condition.>> May I suggest, that as you are a chef of some excellent repute,> you make it your life’s work to create a healthful, wet vegan cat> food that will be universally accepted by cats? Many of us on this> chat line would be eternally grateful if you could manage that.> And it would be a more productive action than…>> By the way, I have yet to meet a dog who doesn’t thrive on a vegan> diet. You could certainly give one of them a home if you wish. J>

> Love Linda. www.animalrehoming.co.nz <http://www.animalrehoming.co.nz>>>>>>>>---