Guest guest Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 I am kind of a nut "nut" and will keep eating them until they're all gone. I've always been that way about them, even as a child.Patricia--- On Mon, 3/1/10, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork wrote:jo.heartwork <jo.heartworkRE: Re: From VegSource Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 10:04 AM I don’t think they need to be in moderation unless you are putting on weight. Your brain needs fat – of the healthy variety from nuts, seeds etc. Jo On Behalf Of Patricia 01 March 2010 08:03 Re: Re: From VegSource But, we have the brains and ability to extract that oil from the olives. Some people don't think we should eat olives, avocados or nuts, but I don't think they are bad in moderation. Patricia --- On Sun, 2/28/10, Dena Jo <DenaJo2 wrote: Dena Jo <DenaJo2 Re: Re: From VegSource Sunday, February 28, 2010, 2:25 PM I disagree with the "good for us" part of the your sentence about fats only because free-standing fats don't exist in nature, and I don't believe that God or nature, however you want to view it, gave our bodies a requirement that God or nature didn't provide for. If olive oil is supposedly good for us, then we should be consuming it in the form of olives. That said, nothing is going to make being vegan a more miserable experience that feeling completely deprived, and I don't see why we need to be. An occasional high-fat meal or high-sugar dessert is not going to kill us. The trick is that it needs to be occasional and not every day. Dena Jo ----- Original Message ----- Patricia Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:34 AM Re: Re: From VegSource I think I didn't make it clear that I don't personally believe that that is all so bad for us; I should have added a comment.I really don't want to live like a prisoner and be isolated from everyone else by never being able to eat anything but the most boring food possible. As far as fat is concerned, I believe that there are fats that in moderation are nor only harmless, but are indeed good for us. Patricia --- On Fri, 2/26/10, bcoffthegrid <jttranscripts@ xplornet. ca> wrote: bcoffthegrid <jttranscripts@ xplornet. ca> Re: From VegSource @gro ups.com Friday, February 26, 2010, 12:18 PM Hi Patricia, I agree with what you're saying but now it's trying to find a fix. But, with that said, sure it's easy to say this is wrong, don't do that, you're going to die as well if you eat these and so on, which I think we all pretty much know, it's finding better alternatives that's the problem. Comfort foods are comfort foods. I enjoy sitting down and having meals with friends just as much as I like having a glass of wine with them (sugar again). Sure, I could pretty much give up everything and go through my life eating raw vegetables but I am TRYING to find healthier alternatives. It's coming, but I still have a ways to go. I became a vegetarian and can't say vegan yet as every once in a while I'll find out later (like on an earlier post) that some veggie burgers have cheese in them. My fault again, I obviously wasn't doing a good job at reading labels, which I will have to work on. I have a neighbor who now has to give up salt, sugar, fats, all the things you say and she is miserable. Yes, it's a habit like anything else, but she was the person in the neighborhood who loved to have these big dinners and invite everyone over. She's just one of those people that is like the stereotypical Italian mother who wants to feed everyone. This makes her happy. She has such a "motherly" nature. So, my point is I understand and agree totally with what you're saying, but perhaps, other than the one book you mentioned, which is helpful, you could make some other suggestions on how to change our habits. I think that's what we're all looking for is to find healthy alternatives. Saying this and that is wrong is fine, but the only way to a solution is giving some good advice on how to change it. Just like the conversations dealing with how meat eaters are hard on vegetarians or vice versa, pointing fingers and just telling someone that they're fools (just using my own word there) because they do this or that doesn't help solve the issue. Education is the key. I'd NEVER tell a meat eater they're an idiot, but will suggest some healthy alternatives or have them try something that I've made. Like the person asking about other alternatives for lunch, I LOVED how everyone stepped up with great ideas and reminders of things to make. Anyway, that's just my thoughts. I guess because it seems everything we do is criticised or judged by someone, but without CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, just writing a long post on how bad fats, sugar and salt are without a good answer isn't that constructive either. I think we can all agree that we knew that already. I hope you don't take any offense in my comments as I'm not meaning them to be that way. Just hope that if you are aware of ideas, recipes, other books, other sites that can help us reduce those great tasting things in our lives would be greatly appreciated. I will admit, for me, giving up stuff I like is very hard until I can find an equal substitute. Jackie @gro ups.com, Patricia <moondreamer64_ 2000 wrote: > > Rant: On "Comfort Foods" & Related Issues > > IMHO, by characterizing foods as "comfort foods" we draw upon emotions rather than intellect. Many of the food products (or, as Pollan would put it, "food-like substances") we were given as children have been shown to be rather unhealthy. They have become "unhealthy" attachments and, in many cases, taste addictions. The topic came up in a list I belong to (fat free vegan). My response got too long, hence this post. > > Plastic white Wonder Bread, Cocoa Puffs, Campbell's Soups, Pizza, McDonald's Fries, Gummy Bears, and the list goes on and on. I remember when doctors would SMOKE in their offices (one in particular, advising me that my being a vegetarian was risky to my health). It's not a coincidence that food companies spend most of their advertising dollars targeting children ("hook 'em when the're young, you get them for life"). Then there's the "bond" to these unhealthy foods that comes from the fact that it's those we trust when we are young, (our parents and relatives) who give us that stuff. > > It takes determination, will, and mental discipline, to remind ourselves that emotional attachments to unhealthy food are one of the reasons we have around 24 million diabetics in this country (6 million of those unaware of such), and lose near half a million (not counting those deaths from other cardiovascular- related problems) a year to heart attacks. Our public and governmental institutions have failed completely, for the most part, in helping people understand what is healthy and what isn't. Considering the amount of money spent on advertising bad food products it's not surprising how screwed up the conventional views of good nutrition are ("Over 10 billion dollars is spent on fast food advertising to children annually in numerous fashions."). > > I see many vegetarians and vegans gleefully substitute high fat faux cheeses and meats, lots of sugar, excessive sodium, and/or added oil to recipes to duplicate "comfort foods." Large amounts of sugar and refined flour as "they deserve a treat" on Valentine's Day. "Deserve?" Hardly. They misleadingly believe that because they are vegan, they have removed the risk of having cardiovascular issues or diabetes. Far from it. It might be reduced some, but they can still get fat and saturated fat from non-animal sources that, from the body's risks standpoint, is essentially the same as from animal sources. Added oil fuels development of plaque that causes strokes (that's not a cholesterol issue) and inflames your blood vessels. One fatty meal decreases your blood vessels elasticity for several hours (that's a measured fact). Using more sugar in a meal than recommended per day by the American Heart Association is not a "treat." It's > potential long-term suicide. Over time, it's probably gonna kill ya. A la McDougall, Esselstyn, Barnard, and Campbell: "Moderation kills." > > This is why when celebrated vegan chefs like Tal repeatedly say, "Fat is Flavor," I believe he isn't really helping the human animals and is basically a nutritional moron. PCRM recently praised his cookbook, "Conscious Cooking" while dissing Julia Childs, mentioning heart disease, yadda, whereas in fact, some of his recipes are significantly higher in added fat then hers! > > "Daiya Cheese," which so many vegans worship, has more fat per serving than WHOLE MILK mozzarella. It's essentially a nutritiously vapid food-like substance that's mostly oil. "But it melts!" proclaim the fat-addicted vegans. "It saves [non-human] animals!" yell the animal rights activists. > > Big whoop. Remember that when they put the stents in. Which reminds me: how ironic that many articles about President Clinton's recent surgery mentioned that his last one (quadruple bypass) was successful. Successful? That means he didn't die from complications. If it were successful, he wouldn't need the stents. You see, modern medicine CANNOT cure heart disease, only extend one's life a bit. Yet, two people, independently, 20 years of peer-reviewed research, have REVERSED IT through a no-added fat diet (one was vegetarian, one was vegan). Both men recommend NO added oil, not even in moderation. Here's 15 documented and referenced reasons to avoid added oil to help elucidate the problems. > > How can anyone intelligently argue against this? Added oil/fat, salt, and sugar is killing us in huge numbers. It's not just a meat or dairy issue. To argue against no added fat and limiting sugar and salt in your diet is like arguing against evolution, gravity, and the Earth revolving around the Sun. We're talking facts here people, not theory, conjecture, or educated guesses. > > My "take no prisoners" approach stems from Dr. Esselsytn telling me in that interview I did with him three years ago this week. He didn't want to just reduce the numbers (a la Mediterranean Diet as he pointed out in someone else's interview), he wanted to crush it (different phraseology) . By thinking of such fatty, salty, and or sugary foods as "comforting, " it's too easy for many people to justify consumption of same, and continued addiction. Making a fatty vegan mac'n'cheese for your kids is not loving, it's potentially killing. Creating future fat addicts. > > Re-training your taste buds to not crave excess salt, sugar, and fat, is doable (around 14 wks.), but, imho, like an alcoholic, it's usually an "all or nothing" situation for most of us. Fortunately, many of the so-called "comfort" foods can be duplicated, to varying degree, without the fat, sugar, salt, and unpronounceable chemicals. Perhaps, though, the best strategy, is to create new and healthier comfort foods. We can then break with the unhealthy past and establish new rituals based upon new knowledge. > > For those interested, Jonathan Foer goes into the issue a lot in his book, "Eating Animals." His work surprised me in depth of thought and overall approach. The issue of family rituals and eating was one of the book's arcs that he was wrestling with in his eventual decision that eating factory farmed meat was wrong. There would be new family rituals regarding food, they would be healthy, and they would not involve meat. In effect, "healthy" comfort foods would be emphasized, and his child would have a better chance of living longer and healthier as a result. > > Optimally, the healthiest comfort food is no-added oil, minimal sugar, minimal salt, and vegan. The evidence is in, and if one can eliminate the emotional attachments and taste addictions, one can drastically increase opportunities for a longer and healthier life. > > For me, that's a comforting thought, and, the real treat. > > > > Patricia > ------------ --------- --------- ------ To send an email to -unsubscr ibe (AT) (DOT) com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 I agree whole heartedly. To say there is something wrong with eating a pasta salad smothered in garlic with a dab of good quality olive oil for good measure makes me want to cry. I can give up wine and beer, but I don't think we need to forego the buttery taste of scrumptious oils just because we can glean the same nutrients from olives or nuts. We do need fats for good health. We certainly don't need animal fats but nuts and avocados and even the occasional oil or nut butter can be a healthy addition to our diets. bantrymoon <bantrymoon Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 9:12:24 PM Re: From VegSource >>>> But, we have the brains and ability to extract that oil from the olives. Some people don't think we should eat olives, avocados or nuts, but I don't think they are bad in moderation. <<<< This has been an interesting discussion. Thought I'd go ahead and chime in. I'm in Patricia's camp on this one. Humans are a very adaptable species, and we can thrive on a wide range of diets. It won't hurt anyone who wants to focus on a natural sort of diet, but I also think vegans who go for things that are processed from plants -- olive oil, wine, beer, tofu, and so forth -- are doing just fine. And, most especially, the coffee! Cheers, Trish -- Trish Carr http://home. comcast.net/ ~bantrymoon/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2010 Report Share Posted March 3, 2010 Nuts are definitely very more-ish. Jo , Patricia <moondreamer64_2000 wrote: > > I am kind of a nut " nut " and will keep eating them until they're all gone. I've always been that way about them, even as a child. > > Patricia > > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork wrote: > > jo.heartwork <jo.heartwork > RE: Re: From VegSource > > Monday, March 1, 2010, 10:04 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t think they need to be in moderation unless you are > putting on weight. Your brain needs fat †" of the healthy variety from nuts, > seeds etc. > >  > > Jo > >  > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Patricia > > 01 March 2010 08:03 > > > > Re: Re: From VegSource > > > > > >  > >  > > > > But, we have the brains and ability to extract that oil > from the olives. Some people don't think we should eat olives, avocados or > nuts, but I don't think they are bad in moderation. > > > > Patricia > > > > --- On Sun, 2/28/10, Dena Jo <DenaJo2 wrote: > > > Dena Jo <DenaJo2 > > Re: Re: From VegSource > > > > Sunday, February 28, 2010, 2:25 PM > >  > > I disagree with the > " good for us " part of the your sentence about fats only because > free-standing fats don't exist in nature, and I don't believe that God > or nature, however you want to view it, gave our bodies a requirement that > God or nature didn't provide for. If olive oil is supposedly good > for us, then we should be consuming it in the form of olives. > > >  > > > That said, nothing is going > to make being vegan a more miserable experience that feeling completely > deprived, and I don't see why we need to be. An occasional high-fat > meal or high-sugar dessert is not going to kill us. The trick is that > it needs to be occasional and not every day. > > >  > > > Dena Jo > > >  > > > > ----- > Original Message ----- > > > Patricia > > > > > > Sunday, February > 28, 2010 1:34 AM > > > Re: > Re: From VegSource > > >  > >  > > > > > I think I didn't make it clear that I don't personally believe > that that is all so bad for us; I should have added a comment.I really > don't want to live like a prisoner and be isolated from everyone else > by never being able to eat anything but the most boring food possible. As > far as fat is concerned, I believe that there are fats that in moderation > are nor only harmless, but are indeed good for us. > > > > Patricia > > > > --- On Fri, 2/26/10, bcoffthegrid <jttranscripts@ xplornet. ca> > wrote: > > > bcoffthegrid <jttranscripts@ xplornet. ca> > > Re: From VegSource > > @gro ups.com > > Friday, February 26, 2010, 12:18 PM > > Hi Patricia, > > > > I agree with what you're saying but now it's trying to find a fix. > > But, with that said, sure it's easy to say this is wrong, don't do that, > you're going to die as well if you eat these and so on, which I think we > all pretty much know, it's finding better alternatives that's the problem. > Comfort foods are comfort foods. I enjoy sitting down and having meals with > friends just as much as I like having a glass of wine with them (sugar > again). Sure, I could pretty much give up everything and go through my life > eating raw vegetables but I am TRYING to find healthier alternatives. It's > coming, but I still have a ways to go. I became a vegetarian and can't say > vegan yet as every once in a while I'll find out later (like on an earlier > post) that some veggie burgers have cheese in them. My fault again, I > obviously wasn't doing a good job at reading labels, which I will have to > work on. > > > > I have a neighbor who now has to give up salt, sugar, fats, all the things > you say and she is miserable. Yes, it's a habit like anything else, but she > was the person in the neighborhood who loved to have these big dinners and > invite everyone over. She's just one of those people that is like the > stereotypical Italian mother who wants to feed everyone. This makes her > happy. She has such a " motherly " nature. > > > > So, my point is I understand and agree totally with what you're saying, but > perhaps, other than the one book you mentioned, which is helpful, you could > make some other suggestions on how to change our habits. I think that's > what we're all looking for is to find healthy alternatives. Saying this and > that is wrong is fine, but the only way to a solution is giving some good > advice on how to change it. Just like the conversations dealing with how > meat eaters are hard on vegetarians or vice versa, pointing fingers and > just telling someone that they're fools (just using my own word there) > because they do this or that doesn't help solve the issue. Education is the > key. I'd NEVER tell a meat eater they're an idiot, but will suggest some > healthy alternatives or have them try something that I've made. Like the > person asking about other alternatives for lunch, I LOVED how everyone > stepped up with great ideas and reminders of things to make. > > > > Anyway, that's just my thoughts. I guess because it seems everything we do > is criticised or judged by someone, but without CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, > just writing a long post on how bad fats, sugar and salt are without a good > answer isn't that constructive either. I think we can all agree that we > knew that already. > > > > I hope you don't take any offense in my comments as I'm not meaning them to > be that way. Just hope that if you are aware of ideas, recipes, other > books, other sites that can help us reduce those great tasting things in > our lives would be greatly appreciated. I will admit, for me, giving up > stuff I like is very hard until I can find an equal substitute. > > > > Jackie > > > > @gro ups.com, Patricia <moondreamer64_ > 2000@> wrote: > > > > > > Rant: On " Comfort Foods " & Related Issues > > > > > > IMHO, by characterizing foods as " comfort foods " we draw > upon emotions rather than intellect. Many of the food products (or, > as Pollan would put it, " food-like substances " ) we were given as > children have been shown to be rather unhealthy. They have become > " unhealthy " attachments and, in many cases, taste > addictions. The topic came up in a list I belong to (fat free > vegan). My response got too long, hence this post. > > > > > > Plastic white Wonder Bread, Cocoa Puffs, Campbell's Soups, Pizza, > McDonald's Fries, Gummy Bears, and the list goes on and on. I > remember when doctors would SMOKE in their offices (one in particular, > advising me that my being a vegetarian was risky to my health). It's > not a coincidence that food companies spend most of their advertising > dollars targeting children ( " hook 'em when the're young, you get them > for life " ). Then there's the " bond " to these unhealthy > foods that comes from the fact that it's those we trust when we are young, > (our parents and relatives) who give us that stuff. > > > > > > It takes determination, will, and mental discipline, to remind > ourselves that emotional attachments to unhealthy food are one of the > reasons we have around 24 million diabetics in this country (6 million of > those unaware of such), and lose near half a million (not counting those > deaths from other cardiovascular- related problems) a year to heart > attacks. Our public and governmental institutions have failed > completely, for the most part, in helping people understand what is healthy > and what isn't. Considering the amount of money spent on advertising > bad food products it's not surprising how screwed up the conventional views > of good nutrition are ( " Over 10 billion dollars is spent on fast food > advertising to children annually in numerous fashions. " ). > > > > > > I see many vegetarians and vegans gleefully substitute high fat faux > cheeses and meats, lots of sugar, excessive sodium, and/or added oil to > recipes to duplicate " comfort foods. "  Large amounts of > sugar and refined flour as " they deserve a treat " on Valentine's > Day. " Deserve? "  Hardly. They misleadingly > believe that because they are vegan, they have removed the risk of having cardiovascular > issues or diabetes. Far from it. It might be reduced some, but > they can still get fat and saturated fat from non-animal sources that, from > the body's risks standpoint, is essentially the same as from animal > sources. Added oil fuels development of plaque that causes strokes (that's > not a cholesterol issue) and inflames your blood vessels. One fatty > meal decreases your blood vessels elasticity for several hours (that's a > measured fact). Using more sugar in a meal than recommended per day > by the American Heart Association is not a " treat. "  It's > > > potential long-term suicide. Over time, it's probably > gonna kill ya. A la McDougall, Esselstyn, Barnard, and > Campbell: " Moderation kills. " > > > > > > This is why when celebrated vegan chefs like Tal repeatedly say, > " Fat is Flavor, " I believe he isn't really helping the human > animals and is basically a nutritional moron. PCRM recently praised > his cookbook, " Conscious Cooking " while dissing Julia Childs, > mentioning heart disease, yadda, whereas in fact, some of his recipes are > significantly higher in added fat then hers! > > > > > > " Daiya Cheese, " which so many vegans worship, has more fat > per serving than WHOLE MILK mozzarella. It's essentially a > nutritiously vapid food-like substance that's mostly oil. " But > it melts! " proclaim the fat-addicted vegans. " It saves > [non-human] animals! " yell the animal rights activists. > > > > > > Big whoop. Remember that when they put the stents in. > Which reminds me: how ironic that many articles about President > Clinton's recent surgery mentioned that his last one (quadruple bypass) was > successful. Successful? That means he didn't die from > complications. If it were successful, he wouldn't need the > stents. You see, modern medicine CANNOT cure heart disease, only > extend one's life a bit. Yet, two people, independently, 20 years of > peer-reviewed research, have REVERSED IT through a no-added fat diet (one > was vegetarian, one was vegan). Both men recommend NO added oil, not > even in moderation. Here's 15 documented and referenced reasons to > avoid added oil to help elucidate the problems. > > > > > > How can anyone intelligently argue against this? Added oil/fat, > salt, and sugar is killing us in huge numbers. It's not just a meat > or dairy issue. To argue against no added fat and limiting sugar and > salt in your diet is like arguing against evolution, gravity, and the Earth > revolving around the Sun. We're talking facts here people, not > theory, conjecture, or educated guesses. > > > > > > My " take no prisoners " approach stems from Dr. Esselsytn > telling me in that interview I did with him three years ago this > week. He didn't want to just reduce the numbers (a la Mediterranean > Diet as he pointed out in someone else's interview), he wanted to crush it > (different phraseology) . By thinking of such fatty, salty, and or > sugary foods as " comforting, " it's too easy for many people to > justify consumption of same, and continued addiction. Making a fatty > vegan mac'n'cheese for your kids is not loving, it's potentially > killing. Creating future fat addicts. > > > > > > Re-training your taste buds to not crave excess salt, sugar, and fat, > is doable (around 14 wks.), but, imho, like an alcoholic, it's usually an > " all or nothing " situation for most of us. Fortunately, > many of the so-called " comfort " foods can be duplicated, to > varying degree, without the fat, sugar, salt, and unpronounceable > chemicals. Perhaps, though, the best strategy, is to create new and > healthier comfort foods. We can then break with the unhealthy > past and establish new rituals based upon new knowledge. > > > > > > For those interested, Jonathan Foer goes into the issue a lot in his > book, " Eating Animals. "  His work surprised me in depth of > thought and overall approach. The issue of family rituals and eating > was one of the book's arcs that he was wrestling with in his eventual > decision that eating factory farmed meat was wrong. There would be > new family rituals regarding food, they would be healthy, and they would > not involve meat. In effect, " healthy " comfort foods would > be emphasized, and his child would have a better chance of living longer > and healthier as a result. > > > > > > Optimally, the healthiest comfort food is no-added oil, minimal sugar, > minimal salt, and vegan. The evidence is in, and if one can eliminate > the emotional attachments and taste addictions, one can drastically > increase opportunities for a longer and healthier life. > > > > > > For me, that's a comforting thought, and, the real treat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Patricia > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To send an email to -unsubscr ibe (AT) (DOT) > com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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