Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Dear , Having read the text on Maharshi's instructions I was delighted to find that although I have been pursuing a nominally Buddhist path my actual practice is exactly that described within these instructions. I initially used the breath as a meditation object, following the instructions within the Anapanasati sutta but after the attainment of first Jhana I found my object became the `self'. I never vocalised or articulated the thought " who am I " , rather I sought for and `felt' the tension the ego creates within consciousness. This `tension' (when observed) vanishes - or relaxes out - and each time this happened I broke through to the next form Jhana. Having traversed the four form Jhanas and having entered into a state which I equate with samhadi (or the formless absorptions) I find myself in the predicament Maharshi mentions in his instructions. I believe the state I enter is called Manolaya. All thoughts are stilled and there is an expansive peaceful awareness which has no point of reference at all. Of course when I emerge from it my habitual thoughts return (though each time a little weaker). Maharshi says that: " even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand years, it will never lead to total destruction of thought, which is what is called liberation from birth and death. The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and enquire within as to who has this experience, who realises its pleasantness. Without this enquiry he will go into a long trance or deep sleep (yoga nidra). Due to the absence of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual practice, many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a false sense of liberation and only a few have managed to reach the goal safely " . My problem is the following. I am now unable to detect any ego-self within meditation and unable to summon up volition to seek it. The state, itself, demands that I surrender such activity in order to abide within it. I found that this quote also matches my current experience: " When self-enquiry reaches this level there is an effortless awareness of being in which individual effort is no longer possible since the `I' who makes the effort has temporarily ceased to exist " . So my question is where do I go from here? How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems no longer possible? Namaste Sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Dear Sand, You are obviously an advanced practitioner, and I would hesitate to reply, except in a very tentative way, in the hope my suggestion may prove helpful. You write: > My problem is the following. I am now unable to > detect any ego-self within meditation and unable > to summon up volition to seek it. The state, itself, > demands that I surrender such activity in order > to abide within it. That, I feel is the key paragraph in your letter. The enquiry is to find the source of the ego . The fact that you cannot detect it seems to point to the fact that you have not yet reached its source. Then one must persevere with the enquiry, summoning focused attention, diving within, to search for its source. Even if one finds nothing, one must persist. The Vichara receives the help of grace from the Self which may take one deeper. The focus of attention needed, comes at first from the mind. With persistence the enquiry will be taken up in the heart, if the yearning is strong enough to find the source. Once this enquiry starts spontaneously, from time to time in the heart- it doesn't matter if nothing is found at first, now one is in the right direction and out of Manolaya. All best wishes, In His Grace, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Dear Alan, Many thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my question. I feel that you are correct when you write: > The fact that you cannot detect it seems to point > to the fact that you have not yet reached its source. This is absolutely the case. I know that I have not returned to the source. I seem to have hit a glass ceiling (albeit a nice one). My previous success was always gained by recognition of the ego. Each time it got more subtle and harder to find. Now it seems to have vanished but I know this can't be the case. You wrote: > The focus of attention needed, comes at first from the mind. With > persistence the enquiry will be taken up in the heart. This may be the case. The mode of searching may have to be re-defined. Namaste Sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945 wrote: > So my question is where do I go from here? > How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems > no longer possible? > Dear Sand: This last question is the one that needs to be investigated about. As you state in your question, effort " seems " to be no longer possible, only " seems'... Is that a definite fact that effort is no longer possible? Also check your first question and the way it was constructed: " where do I go from here?... Since here is the only place that exist (either psycologically as well as spacially), where do you want to go? there? but " there " is another place for here, as you know. So one possibility of " effort " (if we wish to define it like that) would be to freeze these two questions ON THE SPOT, and inquire whence are they emerging from. In this way, the mind will be " forced " to turn to the source of its existence, and we will be once again to the back " here " that was never left. Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Dear Mouna, It's difficult to be exact. When thoughts cease, the clarity of awareness increases dramatically. In this state all 'doing' is unnecessary. I seem to reside in the heart and expand out from there. When thoughts move, even slightly, the clarity begins to fade. I don't feel like I am in a trance or self-hypnosis. My question was framed within linguistic constraints. I know there is nowhere to go - we are where we have always been and always shall be. I find releasing all expectations and considerations to be the most expedient way of entering samhadi but I am aware that all traditions warn of a self-deluded dead-end meditative state. My observations from within this state are of a great stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction' of awareness around these thoughts. Then of the habitual naming and framing of familiar places, stimuli and situations. That's about as good as I can explain it. Much of what I have read within Kashmiri Shavism resonates with what I have 'seen' to the extent that I can no longer label myself a Buddhist alone, rather I free-fall through the experience and do not feel any need to control it at all. Namaste Sand , " upadesa " <maunna wrote: > > " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945@> wrote: > > > So my question is where do I go from here? > > How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems > > no longer possible? > > > > Dear Sand: > > This last question is the one that needs to be investigated about. > As you state in your question, effort " seems " to be no longer > possible, only " seems'... Is that a definite fact that effort is no > longer possible? > Also check your first question and the way it was constructed: " where > do I go from here?... Since here is the only place that exist (either > psycologically as well as spacially), where do you want to go? there? > but " there " is another place for here, as you know. > So one possibility of " effort " (if we wish to define it like that) > would be to freeze these two questions ON THE SPOT, and inquire whence > are they emerging from. > In this way, the mind will be " forced " to turn to the source of its > existence, and we will be once again to the back " here " that was never > left. > > Yours in Bhagavan, > Mouna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945 wrote: > > My observations from within this state are of a great > stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts > that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction' > of awareness around these thoughts. Dear Sand: From what you are describing it doesn't seem to be any problem at all..., it shouldn't be any space for further questioning... If there is, then, what appears, needs to be inquired. Sorry, I am not so familiar with Kashmir Saivism or Buddhism, I can only refer to Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's way of Enquiry. Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Dear Sand, Referring to Manolaya, Bhagavan suggests (David Godman Be As You Are P.63 " The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and enquire within as to who has this experience, who realises its pleasantness? " ....... P64 " the moment one experiences this (manolaya), one must revive consciouness and enquire within as to who it is who experiences this stillness " .... " by such enquiry you will drive the thought force deeper till it reaches its source and merges therein. It is then that you will have the response from within and find that you rest there, destroying all thought once and for all " ......... He does say " that although manolaya is a sign oF progress towards the goal, it is also the point where the divergence between the road to liberation and yoga nidra (a long trance or deep sleep) takes place. " All from R.Swarnagiri, Crumbs From His Table pp25-7 Hope this helps, Best wishes and regards, Alan --- " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945 wrote: > Dear Mouna, > It's difficult to be exact. When thoughts cease, the > clarity of awareness increases dramatically. In this > state all 'doing' is unnecessary. I seem to reside in > the heart and expand out from there. > > When thoughts move, even slightly, the clarity > begins to fade. I don't feel like I am in a trance or > self-hypnosis. > > My question was framed within linguistic constraints. > I know there is nowhere to go - we are where we > have always been and always shall be. I find releasing > all expectations and considerations to be the most > expedient way of entering samhadi but I am aware > that all traditions warn of a self-deluded dead-end > meditative state. > > My observations from within this state are of a great > stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts > that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction' > of awareness around these thoughts. Then of the habitual > naming and framing of familiar places, stimuli and situations. > > That's about as good as I can explain it. Much of what I > have read within Kashmiri Shavism resonates with what > I have 'seen' to the extent that I can no longer label myself > a Buddhist alone, rather I free-fall through the experience > and do not feel any need to control it at all. > > Namaste > Sand > > , " upadesa " <maunna wrote: > > > > " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945@> wrote: > > > > > So my question is where do I go from here? > > > How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems > > > no longer possible? > > > > > > > Dear Sand: > > > > This last question is the one that needs to be investigated about. > > As you state in your question, effort " seems " to be no longer > > possible, only " seems'... Is that a definite fact that effort is no > > longer possible? > > Also check your first question and the way it was constructed: " where > > do I go from here?... Since here is the only place that exist (either > > psycologically as well as spacially), where do you want to go? there? > > but " there " is another place for here, as you know. > > So one possibility of " effort " (if we wish to define it like that) > > would be to freeze these two questions ON THE SPOT, and inquire whence > > are they emerging from. > > In this way, the mind will be " forced " to turn to the source of its > > existence, and we will be once again to the back " here " that was never > > left. > > > > Yours in Bhagavan, > > Mouna > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Dear Mouna, Many thanks for that. You wrote: " it shouldn't be any space for further questioning... If there is, then, what appears, needs to be inquired " Good advice. I know the ego is subtle and has many layers. I guess I shouldn't become complacent and always be willing to review my experience. In looking at diverse schools I have concluded that they are (more or less) aiming at the same truth. It's just that people like to describe it differently and then they can get caught up in the description, rather than the truth to which it points. Namaste Sand , " upadesa " <maunna wrote: > > " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945@> wrote: > > > > My observations from within this state are of a great > > stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts > > that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction' > > of awareness around these thoughts. > > Dear Sand: > From what you are describing it doesn't seem to be any problem at > all..., it shouldn't be any space for further questioning... > If there is, then, what appears, needs to be inquired. > Sorry, I am not so familiar with Kashmir Saivism or Buddhism, I can > only refer to Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's way of Enquiry. > > Yours in Bhagavan, > Mouna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Dear Alan, I found this quote to be very helpful: > " by such enquiry you will drive the thought force deeper till it reaches > its source and merges therein. It is then that you will have the response > from within and find that you rest there, destroying all thought once and > for all " ......... Very inspiring. Namaste Sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 , " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945 wrote: > > Dear Alan, > > I found this quote to be very helpful: > > > " by such enquiry you will drive the thought force deeper till it reaches > > its source and merges therein. It is then that you will have the response > > from within and find that you rest there, destroying all thought once and > > for all " ......... > > Very inspiring. > > Namaste > Sand > Namaste, In my experience there are common manolayas, and sleep/sushupti, but there is also the oneness feeling or bliss state, which is consciousness of the universal energy. Any experience is ultimately false and the one thought of deep sleep is also false. If one has gone beyond the saguna stage then there is no memory at all..........Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 Hi Tony, You wrote: > Any experience is ultimately > false and the one thought of deep sleep is also false. If one has > gone beyond the saguna stage then there is no memory at > all..........> Could you expand on that, as I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Namaste Kris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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