Manolaya and Self enquiry?

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Having read the text on Maharshi's instructions

I was delighted to find that although I have been

pursuing a nominally Buddhist path my actual

practice is exactly that described within these

instructions.

 

I initially used the breath as a meditation object,

following the instructions within the Anapanasati

sutta but after the attainment of first Jhana I found

my object became the `self'. I never vocalised or

articulated the thought " who am I " , rather I

sought for and `felt' the tension the ego creates

within consciousness. This `tension' (when observed)

vanishes - or relaxes out - and each time this

happened I broke through to the next form Jhana.

 

Having traversed the four form Jhanas and

having entered into a state which I equate with

samhadi (or the formless absorptions) I find

myself in the predicament Maharshi mentions

in his instructions. I believe the state I enter is

called Manolaya. All thoughts are stilled and

there is an expansive peaceful awareness which

has no point of reference at all. Of course when

I emerge from it my habitual thoughts return

(though each time a little weaker).

 

Maharshi says that: " even if this temporary

lulling of mind should last a thousand years,

it will never lead to total destruction of thought,

which is what is called liberation from birth and

death. The practitioner must therefore be ever

on the alert and enquire within as to who has

this experience, who realises its pleasantness.

Without this enquiry he will go into a long trance

or deep sleep (yoga nidra). Due to the absence

of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual practice,

many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a

false sense of liberation and only a few have

managed to reach the goal safely " .

 

My problem is the following. I am now unable to

detect any ego-self within meditation and unable

to summon up volition to seek it. The state, itself,

demands that I surrender such activity in order

to abide within it.

 

I found that this quote also matches my current

experience: " When self-enquiry reaches this level

there is an effortless awareness of being in which

individual effort is no longer possible since

the `I' who makes the effort has temporarily

ceased to exist " .

 

So my question is where do I go from here?

How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems

no longer possible?

 

Namaste

Sand

[Guest guest]

Dear Sand,

 

You are obviously an advanced practitioner, and I would hesitate to reply,

except in a very tentative way, in the hope my suggestion may prove

helpful.

 

You write:

 

> My problem is the following. I am now unable to

> detect any ego-self within meditation and unable

> to summon up volition to seek it. The state, itself,

> demands that I surrender such activity in order

> to abide within it.

 

 

That, I feel is the key paragraph in your letter. The enquiry is to find

the source of the ego . The fact that you cannot detect it seems to point

to the fact that you have not yet reached its source. Then one must

persevere with the enquiry, summoning focused attention, diving within, to

search for its source. Even if one finds nothing, one must persist. The

Vichara receives the help of grace from the Self which may take one

deeper.

 

The focus of attention needed, comes at first from the mind. With

persistence the enquiry will be taken up in the heart, if the yearning is

strong enough to find the source. Once this enquiry starts spontaneously,

from time to time in the heart- it doesn't matter if nothing is found at

first, now one is in the right direction and out of Manolaya.

 

All best wishes,

 

In His Grace,

 

Alan

[Guest guest]

Dear Alan,

Many thanks for taking the time to read and

reply to my question. I feel that you are correct

when you write:

 

> The fact that you cannot detect it seems to point

> to the fact that you have not yet reached its source.

 

This is absolutely the case. I know that I have not

returned to the source. I seem to have hit a glass

ceiling (albeit a nice one). My previous success was

always gained by recognition of the ego. Each time

it got more subtle and harder to find. Now it seems

to have vanished but I know this can't be the case.

 

You wrote:

> The focus of attention needed, comes at first from the mind. With

> persistence the enquiry will be taken up in the heart.

 

This may be the case. The mode of searching may

have to be re-defined.

 

Namaste

Sand

[Guest guest]

" naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945 wrote:

 

> So my question is where do I go from here?

> How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems

> no longer possible?

>

 

Dear Sand:

 

This last question is the one that needs to be investigated about.

As you state in your question, effort " seems " to be no longer

possible, only " seems'... Is that a definite fact that effort is no

longer possible?

Also check your first question and the way it was constructed: " where

do I go from here?... Since here is the only place that exist (either

psycologically as well as spacially), where do you want to go? there?

but " there " is another place for here, as you know.

So one possibility of " effort " (if we wish to define it like that)

would be to freeze these two questions ON THE SPOT, and inquire whence

are they emerging from.

In this way, the mind will be " forced " to turn to the source of its

existence, and we will be once again to the back " here " that was never

left.

 

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Dear Mouna,

It's difficult to be exact. When thoughts cease, the

clarity of awareness increases dramatically. In this

state all 'doing' is unnecessary. I seem to reside in

the heart and expand out from there.

 

When thoughts move, even slightly, the clarity

begins to fade. I don't feel like I am in a trance or

self-hypnosis.

 

My question was framed within linguistic constraints.

I know there is nowhere to go - we are where we

have always been and always shall be. I find releasing

all expectations and considerations to be the most

expedient way of entering samhadi but I am aware

that all traditions warn of a self-deluded dead-end

meditative state.

 

My observations from within this state are of a great

stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts

that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction'

of awareness around these thoughts. Then of the habitual

naming and framing of familiar places, stimuli and situations.

 

That's about as good as I can explain it. Much of what I

have read within Kashmiri Shavism resonates with what

I have 'seen' to the extent that I can no longer label myself

a Buddhist alone, rather I free-fall through the experience

and do not feel any need to control it at all.

 

Namaste

Sand

 

, " upadesa " <maunna wrote:

>

> " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945@> wrote:

>

> > So my question is where do I go from here?

> > How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems

> > no longer possible?

> >

>

> Dear Sand:

>

> This last question is the one that needs to be investigated about.

> As you state in your question, effort " seems " to be no longer

> possible, only " seems'... Is that a definite fact that effort is no

> longer possible?

> Also check your first question and the way it was constructed: " where

> do I go from here?... Since here is the only place that exist (either

> psycologically as well as spacially), where do you want to go? there?

> but " there " is another place for here, as you know.

> So one possibility of " effort " (if we wish to define it like that)

> would be to freeze these two questions ON THE SPOT, and inquire whence

> are they emerging from.

> In this way, the mind will be " forced " to turn to the source of its

> existence, and we will be once again to the back " here " that was never

> left.

>

> Yours in Bhagavan,

> Mouna

>

[Guest guest]

" naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945 wrote:

>

> My observations from within this state are of a great

> stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts

> that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction'

> of awareness around these thoughts.

 

Dear Sand:

From what you are describing it doesn't seem to be any problem at

all..., it shouldn't be any space for further questioning...

If there is, then, what appears, needs to be inquired.

Sorry, I am not so familiar with Kashmir Saivism or Buddhism, I can

only refer to Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's way of Enquiry.

 

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Dear Sand,

 

Referring to Manolaya, Bhagavan suggests

 

(David Godman Be As You Are P.63

 

" The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and enquire within

as to who has this experience, who realises its pleasantness? " .......

 

P64

 

" the moment one experiences this (manolaya), one must revive consciouness

and enquire within as to who it is who experiences this stillness " ....

 

" by such enquiry you will drive the thought force deeper till it reaches

its source and merges therein. It is then that you will have the response

from within and find that you rest there, destroying all thought once and

for all " .........

 

He does say " that although manolaya is a sign oF progress towards the

goal, it is also the point where the divergence between the road to

liberation and yoga nidra (a long trance or deep sleep) takes place. "

 

All from R.Swarnagiri, Crumbs From His Table pp25-7

 

Hope this helps,

 

Best wishes and regards,

 

Alan

 

 

--- " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945 wrote:

 

> Dear Mouna,

> It's difficult to be exact. When thoughts cease, the

> clarity of awareness increases dramatically. In this

> state all 'doing' is unnecessary. I seem to reside in

> the heart and expand out from there.

>

> When thoughts move, even slightly, the clarity

> begins to fade. I don't feel like I am in a trance or

> self-hypnosis.

>

> My question was framed within linguistic constraints.

> I know there is nowhere to go - we are where we

> have always been and always shall be. I find releasing

> all expectations and considerations to be the most

> expedient way of entering samhadi but I am aware

> that all traditions warn of a self-deluded dead-end

> meditative state.

>

> My observations from within this state are of a great

> stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts

> that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction'

> of awareness around these thoughts. Then of the habitual

> naming and framing of familiar places, stimuli and situations.

>

> That's about as good as I can explain it. Much of what I

> have read within Kashmiri Shavism resonates with what

> I have 'seen' to the extent that I can no longer label myself

> a Buddhist alone, rather I free-fall through the experience

> and do not feel any need to control it at all.

>

> Namaste

> Sand

>

> , " upadesa " <maunna wrote:

> >

> > " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945@> wrote:

> >

> > > So my question is where do I go from here?

> > > How do I continue to 'enquire' when 'effort' seems

> > > no longer possible?

> > >

> >

> > Dear Sand:

> >

> > This last question is the one that needs to be investigated about.

> > As you state in your question, effort " seems " to be no longer

> > possible, only " seems'... Is that a definite fact that effort is no

> > longer possible?

> > Also check your first question and the way it was constructed: " where

> > do I go from here?... Since here is the only place that exist (either

> > psycologically as well as spacially), where do you want to go? there?

> > but " there " is another place for here, as you know.

> > So one possibility of " effort " (if we wish to define it like that)

> > would be to freeze these two questions ON THE SPOT, and inquire whence

> > are they emerging from.

> > In this way, the mind will be " forced " to turn to the source of its

> > existence, and we will be once again to the back " here " that was never

> > left.

> >

> > Yours in Bhagavan,

> > Mouna

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mouna,

Many thanks for that. You wrote:

" it shouldn't be any space for further questioning...

If there is, then, what appears, needs to be inquired "

 

Good advice. I know the ego is subtle and has many

layers. I guess I shouldn't become complacent and

always be willing to review my experience.

 

In looking at diverse schools I have concluded that they

are (more or less) aiming at the same truth.

It's just that people like to describe it differently and then

they can get caught up in the description, rather than the

truth to which it points.

 

Namaste

Sand

 

, " upadesa " <maunna wrote:

>

> " naga.shrine " <sandmaenchen3945@> wrote:

> >

> > My observations from within this state are of a great

> > stillness, not bound to time and space and of thoughts

> > that somehow arise of themselves and of the 'contraction'

> > of awareness around these thoughts.

>

> Dear Sand:

> From what you are describing it doesn't seem to be any problem at

> all..., it shouldn't be any space for further questioning...

> If there is, then, what appears, needs to be inquired.

> Sorry, I am not so familiar with Kashmir Saivism or Buddhism, I can

> only refer to Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's way of Enquiry.

>

> Yours in Bhagavan,

> Mouna

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Alan,

 

I found this quote to be very helpful:

 

> " by such enquiry you will drive the thought force deeper till it reaches

> its source and merges therein. It is then that you will have the response

> from within and find that you rest there, destroying all thought once and

> for all " .........

 

Very inspiring.

 

Namaste

Sand

[Guest guest]

, " naga.shrine "

<sandmaenchen3945 wrote:

>

> Dear Alan,

>

> I found this quote to be very helpful:

>

> > " by such enquiry you will drive the thought force deeper till it

reaches

> > its source and merges therein. It is then that you will have the

response

> > from within and find that you rest there, destroying all thought

once and

> > for all " .........

>

> Very inspiring.

>

> Namaste

> Sand

>

Namaste,

 

In my experience there are common manolayas, and sleep/sushupti, but

there is also the oneness feeling or bliss state, which is

consciousness of the universal energy. Any experience is ultimately

false and the one thought of deep sleep is also false. If one has

gone beyond the saguna stage then there is no memory at

all..........Tony

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

You wrote:

 

> Any experience is ultimately

> false and the one thought of deep sleep is also false. If one has

> gone beyond the saguna stage then there is no memory at

> all..........>

 

Could you expand on that, as I'm not sure

I understand what you mean.

 

Namaste

Kris