Guest guest Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 The followers of the `I am Brahman' and `Neti-Neti' schools share a common belief that the Self can be discovered by the mind, either through affirmation or negation. This belief that the mind can, by its own activities, reach the Self is the root of most of the misconceptions about the practice of self-enquiry. A classic example of this is the belief that self-enquiry involves concentrating on a particular centre in the body called the Heart-centre. This widely held view results from a misinterpretation of some of Sri Ramana Maharshi's statements on the Heart, and to understand how this belief has come about it will be necessary to take a closer look at some of his ideas on the subject. In describing the origin of the `I'-thought he sometimes said that it arose to the brain through a channel which started from a centre in the right hand side of the chest. He called this centre the Heart centre and said that when the `I'-thought subsided into the Self it went back into the centre and disappeared. He also said that when the Self is consciously experienced, there is a tangible awareness that this centre is the source of both the mind and the world. However, these statements are not strictly true and Sri Ramana Maharshi sometimes qualified them by saying that they were only schematic representations which were given to those people who persisted in identifying with their bodies. He said that the Heart is not really located in the body and that from the highest standpoint it is equally untrue to say that the `I'-thought arises and subsides into this centre on the right of the chest. Because Sri Ramana Maharshi often said `Find the place where the " I " arises' or `Find the source of the mind', many people interpreted these statements to mean that they should concentrate in this particular centre while doing self-enquiry. Sri Ramana Maharshi rejected this interpretation many times by saying that the source of the mind or the `I' could only be discovered through attention to the `I'-thought and not through concentration on a particular part of the body. He did sometimes say that putting attention on this centre is a good concentration practice, but he never associated it with self-enquiry. He also occasionally said that meditation on the Heart was an effective way of reaching the Self, but again, he never said that this should be done by concentrating on the Heart-centre. Instead he said that one should meditate on the Heart `as it is'. The Heart `as it is' is not a location, it is the immanent Self and one can only be aware of its real nature by being it. It cannot be reached by concentration. Although there are several potentially ambiguous comments of this kind about the Heart and the Heart-centre, in all his writings and recorded conversations there is not a single statement to support the contention that self-enquiry is to be practised by concentrating on this centre. In fact, by closely examining his statements on the subject one can only conclude that while the experience of the Self contains an awareness of this centre, concentration on this centre will not result in the experience of the Self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 Dear Era, Here are some my writings on the Heart. One or two of these were in response to someone who had quoted David Godman. The term Heart has a very special meaning in Sri Ramana's teaching and Sri Ramana mentioned the Heart very frequently. The Heart Sri Ramana speaks of is not the Heart Center of Kundalini Yoga but the Spiritual Heart he experienced when he had the " death experience " at 16 and became Self-Realized. /LunarPages/archive/MagazineV2/harsha/heart.htm l Namaste and love to all Harsha On Behalf Of Era Tuesday, May 13, 2008 8:12 PM from: No Mind I Am The Self.. David Godman The followers of the `I am Brahman' and `Neti-Neti' schools share a common belief that the Self can be discovered by the mind, either through affirmation or negation. This belief that the mind can, by its own activities, reach the Self is the root of most of the misconceptions about the practice of self-enquiry. A classic example of this is the belief that self-enquiry involves concentrating on a particular centre in the body called the Heart-centre. This widely held view results from a misinterpretation of some of Sri Ramana Maharshi's statements on the Heart, and to understand how this belief has come about it will be necessary to take a closer look at some of his ideas on the subject. In describing the origin of the `I'-thought he sometimes said that it arose to the brain through a channel which started from a centre in the right hand side of the chest. He called this centre the Heart centre and said that when the `I'-thought subsided into the Self it went back into the centre and disappeared. He also said that when the Self is consciously experienced, there is a tangible awareness that this centre is the source of both the mind and the world. However, these statements are not strictly true and Sri Ramana Maharshi sometimes qualified them by saying that they were only schematic representations which were given to those people who persisted in identifying with their bodies. He said that the Heart is not really located in the body and that from the highest standpoint it is equally untrue to say that the `I'-thought arises and subsides into this centre on the right of the chest. Because Sri Ramana Maharshi often said `Find the place where the " I " arises' or `Find the source of the mind', many people interpreted these statements to mean that they should concentrate in this particular centre while doing self-enquiry. Sri Ramana Maharshi rejected this interpretation many times by saying that the source of the mind or the `I' could only be discovered through attention to the `I'-thought and not through concentration on a particular part of the body. He did sometimes say that putting attention on this centre is a good concentration practice, but he never associated it with self-enquiry. He also occasionally said that meditation on the Heart was an effective way of reaching the Self, but again, he never said that this should be done by concentrating on the Heart-centre. Instead he said that one should meditate on the Heart `as it is'. The Heart `as it is' is not a location, it is the immanent Self and one can only be aware of its real nature by being it. It cannot be reached by concentration. Although there are several potentially ambiguous comments of this kind about the Heart and the Heart-centre, in all his writings and recorded conversations there is not a single statement to support the contention that self-enquiry is to be practised by concentrating on this centre. In fact, by closely examining his statements on the subject one can only conclude that while the experience of the Self contains an awareness of this centre, concentration on this centre will not result in the experience of the Self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 > > Dear Era, > > Here are some my writings on the Heart. One or two of these were in response > to someone who had quoted David Godman. The term Heart has a very special > meaning in Sri Ramana's teaching and Sri Ramana mentioned the Heart very > frequently. The Heart Sri Ramana speaks of is not the Heart Center of > Kundalini Yoga but the Spiritual Heart he experienced when he had the " death > experience " at 16 and became Self-Realized. Yes, thank you Harsha ! I remember from the talks..Saradama, Bhagwan made distinction between the Heart, the Heart-chakra and the Heart-Cave what is on the right side. And I know, that his realization bypassed the Kundalini upward nadi since it was pure Grace the downward Chi into his Heart-Cave From No Mind I Am The Self.. David Godman The experience of the Self #6 Q: Some people claim to have had brief experiences of the Self. Is this very common? Saradamma: Many people make such claims but I doubt if more than a few of them have had a genuine experience of the Self. Because most people have never had a direct experience of the Self they think that blissful or peaceful states of mind are glimpses of the Self. The only real experience of the Self occurs when the mind enters the Heart. Imagine a cave with a fierce demon in it. If you go in to investigate, one of three things may happen: the demon may kill you, you may escape through the cave entrance, or you may break your head on the cave roof while you are trying to escape and die as a result. Taking the mind into the Heart-cave is a little like this. Either the Self destroys the mind completely, or the mind enjoys the bliss of the Self for a while before escaping to the brain again, or the strain of the experience is too much for the body and death results. In the last case there will probably be a rebirth in one of the higher worlds. Most people who claim to have experienced the Self have not even taken their minds near to the entrance of the Heart-cave. And even if the mind does go into the Heart, there is still an 'I' which is experiencing the bliss of the Self. The true experience of the Self only happens when the mind is completely absent, either temporarily as in samadhi, or permanently, as in Self-realization. Both of these experiences are very rare. It is very difficult to make the mind go into the Heart. Mostly it is too afraid of its own death to even approach the entrance. The mental experiences of peace, bliss and stillness, which devotees claim to experience usually, take place outside the Heart. They are all in the mind. People who think that these experiences are the reality of the Self are only deluding themselves. </LunarPages/archive/MagazineV2/harsha/hear\ t.html> > > Namaste and love to all > Harsha > > from: No Mind I Am The Self.. David > Godman > > > The followers of the `I am Brahman' and `Neti-Neti' > schools share a common belief that the Self can be discovered by the > mind, either through affirmation or negation. This belief that the > mind can, by its own activities, reach the Self is the root of most of > the misconceptions about the practice of self-enquiry. A classic example > of this is the belief that self-enquiry involves concentrating on a > particular centre in the body called the Heart-centre. This widely > held view results from a misinterpretation of some of Sri Ramana > Maharshi's statements on the Heart, and to understand how this > belief has come about it will be necessary to take a closer look at some > of his ideas on the subject. > > In describing the origin of the `I'-thought he sometimes said > that it arose to the brain through a channel which started from a > centre in the right hand side of the chest. He called this centre the > Heart centre and said that when the `I'-thought subsided into > the Self it went back into the centre and disappeared. He also said that > when the Self is consciously experienced, there is a tangible awareness > that this centre is the source of both the mind and the world. > However, these statements are not strictly true and Sri Ramana > Maharshi sometimes qualified them by saying that they were only > schematic representations which were given to those people who persisted > in identifying with their bodies. He said that the Heart is not really > located in the body and that from the highest standpoint it is equally > untrue to say that the `I'-thought arises and subsides into > this centre on the right of the chest. > > Because Sri Ramana Maharshi often said `Find the place where the " I " > arises' or `Find the source of the mind', many people > interpreted these statements to mean that they should concentrate in > this particular centre while doing self-enquiry. Sri Ramana Maharshi > rejected this interpretation many times by saying that the source of > the mind or the `I' could only be discovered through attention > to the `I'-thought and not through concentration on a > particular part of the body. He did sometimes say that putting > attention on this centre is a good concentration practice, but he > never associated it with self-enquiry. He also occasionally said that > meditation on the Heart was an effective way of reaching the Self, but > again, he never said that this should be done by concentrating on the > Heart-centre. Instead he said that one should meditate on the Heart > `as it is'. The Heart `as it is' is not a location, it > is the immanent Self and one can only be aware of its real nature by > being it. It cannot be reached by concentration. > > Although there are several potentially ambiguous comments of this kind > about the Heart and the Heart-centre, in all his writings and recorded > conversations there is not a single statement to support the > contention that self-enquiry is to be practised by concentrating on > this centre. In fact, by closely examining his statements on the subject > one can only conclude that while the experience of the Self contains > an awareness of this centre, concentration on this centre will not > result in the experience of the Self. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 This is exactly it Era. Only a highly spiritually mature mind nearing the Heart surrenders itself fully to it. Even very advanced Yogis turn back in their samadhi and the mind escapes back to brain getting away from the magnetic attraction of the Heart. The root instinct to survive takes over when the mind approaches the Heart. The true experience of Self in the Heart as the Heart is rare. It takes one beyond time and space. On entering the Heart, one becomes the Heart. And then there is no more Heart as a concept. All concepts disappear. Only Sat-Chit-Ananda. Consciousness in fullness without any support whatsoever. The Heart is a door, a cave, going in it, everything goes. One's small identity becomes one as the Heart. That is the I-I. When the devotee (mind) offers his/her very life to the Heart (Supreme Reality or God), the Heart takes it and reveals that the devotee It Self has Always been the Heart!! That is the most beautiful mystery of Advaita. Namaste and love to all Harsha On Behalf Of Era Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:18 PM Re: from: No Mind I Am The Self.. David Godman The true experience of the Self only happens when the mind is completely absent, either temporarily as in samadhi, or permanently, as in Self-realization. Both of these experiences are very rare. It is very difficult to make the mind go into the Heart. Mostly it is too afraid of its own death to even approach the entrance. The mental experiences of peace, bliss and stillness, which devotees claim to experience usually, take place outside the Heart. They are all in the mind. People who think that these experiences are the reality of the Self are only deluding themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 , " Harsha " wrote: > > This is exactly it Era. Only a highly spiritually mature mind nearing the > Heart surrenders itself fully to it. Even very advanced Yogis turn back in > their samadhi and the mind escapes back to brain getting away from the > magnetic attraction of the Heart. The root instinct to survive takes over > when the mind approaches the Heart. > > The true experience of Self in the Heart as the Heart is rare. Sometimes I think it's more " rarely talked about " than rare. Nisargadatta said " Rare is the one who discloses their Realization " . From here it's not something normally disclosed, and partly we can see why that is from people's reactions on the list to someone declaring " I am Realized " . The ego wants to play at Realization, pretend it's enlightened, and if someone else says it who means it there's no way to discriminate unless one has some intuitive clarity themselves. In my opinion disclosing almost always looks egoic, unless one follows the confessor's talk/writings very closely, with a discriminating mind and heart. Also, there's no reason normally to disclose Realization unless one is going to teach, and even then others will figure it out sooner or later. Just my view on it, and thanks for bringing the subject up, Harsha... from here it's interesting, and I'd welcome more talk on this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2008 Report Share Posted May 16, 2008 Tim G. wrote: > > Harsha wrote: > > > > This is exactly it Era. Only a highly spiritually mature mind > nearing the > > Heart surrenders itself fully to it. Even very advanced Yogis turn > back in > > their samadhi and the mind escapes back to brain getting away from > the > > magnetic attraction of the Heart. The root instinct to survive > takes over > > when the mind approaches the Heart. > > > > The true experience of Self in the Heart as the Heart is rare. > > Sometimes I think it's more " rarely talked about " than rare. > Nisargadatta said " Rare is the one who discloses their Realization " . .. But what does it mean to 'disclose' Realization? I only ask because I am Fully Realized yet can not make anyone else 'disclosed' to Realization. (one of my working theories of why this is so, is that there is actually no such thing as 'another' and so the word 'disclosure' with regard to 'another' is reduced to moot.) Stars Shine... > From here it's not something normally disclosed, and partly we can > see why that is from people's reactions on the list to someone > declaring " I am Realized " . The ego wants to play at Realization, > pretend it's enlightened, and if someone else says it who means it > there's no way to discriminate unless one has some intuitive clarity > themselves. In my opinion disclosing almost always looks egoic, > unless one follows the confessor's talk/writings very closely, with a > discriminating mind and heart. > > Also, there's no reason normally to disclose Realization unless one > is going to teach, and even then others will figure it out sooner or > later. Just my view on it, and thanks for bringing the subject up, > Harsha... from here it's interesting, and I'd welcome more talk on > this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2008 Report Share Posted May 16, 2008 , " David " <david.bozzi wrote: > > But what does it mean to 'disclose' Realization? I just meant 'tell somebody about it'. > I only ask because I am Fully Realized > yet can not make anyone else > 'disclosed' to Realization. > > (one of my working theories of why this is so, is that > there is actually no such thing as 'another' > and so the word 'disclosure' with regard to 'another' is reduced to > moot.) Well stated - but 'real others' and 'apparent others' are close enough, from here. " Realization " doesn't empty the streets of New York City ;-). > Stars Shine... Thanks, David... > > From here it's not something normally disclosed, and partly we can > > see why that is from people's reactions on the list to someone > > declaring " I am Realized " . The ego wants to play at Realization, > > pretend it's enlightened, and if someone else says it who means it > > there's no way to discriminate unless one has some intuitive clarity > > themselves. In my opinion disclosing almost always looks egoic, > > unless one follows the confessor's talk/writings very closely, with a > > discriminating mind and heart. > > > > Also, there's no reason normally to disclose Realization unless one > > is going to teach, and even then others will figure it out sooner or > > later. Just my view on it, and thanks for bringing the subject up, > > Harsha... from here it's interesting, and I'd welcome more talk on > > this topic. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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