Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes of the society? Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible for it's existence. I am it. Recluse: No, you are not it. Man: How come? Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional logic prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you – as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is through direct instructions and commands –which is very limited in the process. While, what is more important in the process of learning is empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his surroundings through empathy, the child copies or replicates the reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of the conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning process of the child –even before the school age. Circumstances offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this particular behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or gifts from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns to construct for himself a self-image among others according to their rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child now comes to identify himself with such an image and considers that he is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I am; is a lie. Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. If you compare all creature with man. You will find that all creatures are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his identity or ego. Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true thing. Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for God to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the only Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to say I Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 Dear Mourad, I am somewhat cautious in interpreting your Recluses's message. When he says 'that to say I AM is blasphemous' , he seems to suggest that it is sheer egotism, synonmyous with the I CONCEIT or I AM THE BODY idea. In fact the phrase I AM is often used by Sages to denote the essential I AMNESS or SELF e.g. I AM THAT. God 's name I AM THAT I AM is immanent as the Self, as well as transcendent as GOD. So to proclaim I AM in that sense would not be blasphemous. In the Psalmsfor example David says 'Be still and know that I am God'. I would appreciate your comment. All warm regards, Alan , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes of > the society? > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible for it's > existence. I am it. > Recluse: No, you are not it. > Man: How come? > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional logic > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you – > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is through > direct instructions and commands –which is very limited in the > process. While, what is more important in the process of learning is > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > surroundings through empathy, the child copies or replicates the > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of the > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning > process of the child –even before the school age. Circumstances > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this particular > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or gifts > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns to > construct for himself a self-image among others according to their > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child now > comes to identify himself with such an image and considers that he > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I am; is > a lie. > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. If > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all creatures > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his identity > or ego. > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true thing. > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for God > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the only > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to say I > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2008 Report Share Posted May 17, 2008 Dear Alan I will try to explain what I meant by using the words of Ramana Maharshi. From the book " Talks with Sri Ralana Maharshi " seventh edition 1984 published by T.N. VENKATARMAN. In page 101-102 " Mr. C. R. Wright, his secretary asked: How shall I realise God? M: God is an unkown entity. Moreover He is external. Whereas, the Self is always with you and it is you.Why do you leave out what is intimate and go in for what is external? D: What is the Self again? M: The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. You always exist. The Be-ing is the Self. " I am " is the name of God. Of all the definitions of God, non is indeed so well put as the Biblical statment " I AM THAT I AM " in Exodus (Chapter 3). There are other statments, such as Brahmaivham, Aham Brahmasmi and Soham. But non is so direct as the name JEHOVA= I AM. The Absolute being is what is. It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact God is non other than the Self. " In page 154-155. " 188. The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness. When the ego however, dominates it, it functions as the reasoning, thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind being not limited by the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only aware. This is what the Bible means by " I AM THAT I AM " . The ego ridden mind has its strengh sapped and is too week to resist the torturing thoughts. The egoless mind is happy in deep dreamless state. Clearly therefore Bliss and misery are only modes of mind; but the weak mode is not easily interchanfable with the strong mode. Activity is weakness and consquently miserable; passivity is strength and therefore blissful. The dormant strength is not apparent and therefore not availed of. The cosmic mind, manifesting in some rare beings, is able to effect the linkage in others of the individual (weak) mind with the universal (strong) mind of the inner recess. Such a rare being is called the Guru or God in manifestation. " God Bles mourad Mourad would like to add, In Islam The Guru or God in manifestion, is called, according to the Qur'an " The Khalif of God on earth " . I hope that this explains what I wish to convey. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ , " alan jacobs " <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > > Dear Mourad, > > I am somewhat cautious in interpreting your Recluses's message. When he > says 'that to say I AM is blasphemous' , he seems to suggest that it is > sheer egotism, synonmyous with the I CONCEIT or I AM THE BODY idea. In > fact the phrase I AM is often used by Sages to denote the essential I > AMNESS or SELF e.g. I AM THAT. God 's name I AM THAT I AM is immanent > as the Self, as well as transcendent as GOD. So to proclaim I AM in that > sense would not be blasphemous. In the Psalmsfor example David says 'Be > still and know that I am God'. > > I would appreciate your comment. > > All warm regards, > > Alan > > > , " mourad " <mourad_shamel@> > wrote: > > > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is > > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes of > > the society? > > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible for it's > > existence. I am it. > > Recluse: No, you are not it. > > Man: How come? > > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was > > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional logic > > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you > – > > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were > > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is through > > direct instructions and commands –which is very limited in the > > process. While, what is more important in the process of learning is > > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > > surroundings through empathy, the child copies or replicates the > > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family > > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of the > > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning > > process of the child –even before the school age. Circumstances > > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this particular > > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or gifts > > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns to > > construct for himself a self-image among others according to their > > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child now > > comes to identify himself with such an image and considers that he > > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- > > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do > > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. > > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I am; is > > a lie. > > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. If > > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all creatures > > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by > > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his identity > > or ego. > > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true thing. > > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for God > > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the only > > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to say I > > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear Mourad, Thanks for your explanation. It seems the crucial meaning is contained in Ramana's words you quote i.e. " I Am is the name of God. The Absolure Being is what it is.It is the Self. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact God is none other than the Self. " With this I am in full agreement and there is no ambiguity.. All best wishes, Alan --- On Sat, 17/5/08, mourad <mourad_shamel wrote: mourad <mourad_shamel Re: Identity and I Am. Saturday, 17 May, 2008, 7:40 PM Dear Alan I will try to explain what I meant by using the words of Ramana Maharshi. From the book " Talks with Sri Ralana Maharshi " seventh edition 1984 published by T.N. VENKATARMAN. In page 101-102 " Mr. C. R. Wright, his secretary asked: How shall I realise God? M: God is an unkown entity. Moreover He is external. Whereas, the Self is always with you and it is you.Why do you leave out what is intimate and go in for what is external? D: What is the Self again? M: The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. You always exist. The Be-ing is the Self. " I am " is the name of God. Of all the definitions of God, non is indeed so well put as the Biblical statment " I AM THAT I AM " in Exodus (Chapter 3). There are other statments, such as Brahmaivham, Aham Brahmasmi and Soham. But non is so direct as the name JEHOVA= I AM. The Absolute being is what is. It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact God is non other than the Self. " In page 154-155. " 188. The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness. When the ego however, dominates it, it functions as the reasoning, thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind being not limited by the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only aware. This is what the Bible means by " I AM THAT I AM " . The ego ridden mind has its strengh sapped and is too week to resist the torturing thoughts. The egoless mind is happy in deep dreamless state. Clearly therefore Bliss and misery are only modes of mind; but the weak mode is not easily interchanfable with the strong mode. Activity is weakness and consquently miserable; passivity is strength and therefore blissful. The dormant strength is not apparent and therefore not availed of. The cosmic mind, manifesting in some rare beings, is able to effect the linkage in others of the individual (weak) mind with the universal (strong) mind of the inner recess. Such a rare being is called the Guru or God in manifestation. " God Bles mourad Mourad would like to add, In Islam The Guru or God in manifestion, is called, according to the Qur'an " The Khalif of God on earth " . I hope that this explains what I wish to convey. , " alan jacobs " <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > Dear Mourad, > > I am somewhat cautious in interpreting your Recluses's message. When he > says 'that to say I AM is blasphemous' , he seems to suggest that it is > sheer egotism, synonmyous with the I CONCEIT or I AM THE BODY idea. In > fact the phrase I AM is often used by Sages to denote the essential I > AMNESS or SELF e.g. I AM THAT. God 's name I AM THAT I AM is immanent > as the Self, as well as transcendent as GOD. So to proclaim I AM in that > sense would not be blasphemous. In the Psalmsfor example David says 'Be > still and know that I am God'. > > I would appreciate your comment. > > All warm regards, > > Alan > > > , " mourad " <mourad_shamel@ > > wrote: > > > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is > > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes of > > the society? > > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible for it's > > existence. I am it. > > Recluse: No, you are not it. > > Man: How come? > > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was > > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional logic > > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you > – > > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were > > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is through > > direct instructions and commands –which is very limited in the > > process. While, what is more important in the process of learning is > > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > > surroundings through empathy, the child copies or replicates the > > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family > > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of the > > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning > > process of the child –even before the school age. Circumstances > > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this particular > > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or gifts > > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns to > > construct for himself a self-image among others according to their > > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child now > > comes to identify himself with such an image and considers that he > > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- > > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do > > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. > > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I am; is > > a lie. > > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. If > > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all creatures > > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by > > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his identity > > or ego. > > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true thing. > > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for God > > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the only > > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to say I > > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes of > the society? > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible for it's > existence. I am it. > Recluse: No, you are not it. > Man: How come? > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional logic > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you – > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is through > direct instructions and commands –which is very limited in the > process. While, what is more important in the process of learning is > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > surroundings through empathy, the child copies or replicates the > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of the > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning > process of the child –even before the school age. Circumstances > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this particular > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or gifts > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns to > construct for himself a self-image among others according to their > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child now > comes to identify himself with such an image and considers that he > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I am; is > a lie. > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. If > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all creatures > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his identity > or ego. > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true thing. > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for God > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the only > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to say I > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > indeed it is... god/self/truth/love/void/... the all-pervaiding, timeless and boundless, is one without a second, whole and totally inexplicable. saying " i am " , thus apparntly confining it to a paricular, bestowing the incomprehensble with form - is a transgression against the biblical first commandement, following the declaration " 'i am' the lord thy god " : " thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth " (exodus, ch. 20) any attempt to limit god to a concept or identity is blasphemy. god is incomparable. thank you, _()_ yosy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Mourad, > > Thanks for your explanation. It seems the crucial meaning is contained in Ramana's words you quote i.e. > > " I Am is the name of God. The Absolure Being is what it is.It is the Self. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact God is none other than the Self. " > > With this I am in full agreement and there is no ambiguity.. > > All best wishes, > > Alan > > hehehehe yes, all is fine. as long as i am is not taken personally... yosy nnb <courtesy snip rest> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 > > Dear Mourad, > > Thanks for your explanation. It seems the crucial meaning is contained in Ramana's words you quote i.e. > > " I Am is the name of God. The Absolure Being is what it is.It is the Self. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact God is none other than the Self. " I want to thank Mourad too ! -in fact I posted this at my other clubs at one where they discussed if animals have a soul, or not.. -remembering Bhagwan's beloved cow Lakshmi.. what can I say ? So for me a Yoga lover the the line was: " The Be-ing is the Self " Life essence *IS the Self ~om namo sri bhagawate ramanayana~ > With this I am in full agreement and there is no ambiguity.. > > All best wishes, > > Alan > > Dear Alan > I will try to explain what I meant by using the words of Ramana > Maharshi. From the book " Talks with Sri Ralana Maharshi " > seventh edition 1984 published by T.N. VENKATARMAN. > > In page 101-102 > " Mr. C. R. Wright, his secretary asked: How shall I realise God? > M: God is an unkown entity. Moreover He is external. Whereas, the > Self is always with you and it is you.Why do you leave out what is > intimate and go in for what is external? > D: What is the Self again? > M: The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. You always exist. > The Be-ing is the Self. " I am " is the name of God. Of all the > definitions of God, non is indeed so well put as the Biblical > statment " I AM THAT I AM " in Exodus (Chapter 3). > There are other statments, such as Brahmaivham, Aham Brahmasmi and > Soham. But non is so direct as the name JEHOVA= I AM. The Absolute > being is what is. It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, > God is known. In fact God is non other than the Self. " > > In page 154-155. > " 188. The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness. When > the ego however, dominates it, it functions as the reasoning, > thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind being not limited by > the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only > aware. This is what the Bible means by " I AM THAT I AM " . > The ego ridden mind has its strengh sapped and is too week to resist > the torturing thoughts. The egoless mind is happy in deep dreamless > state. Clearly therefore Bliss and misery are only modes of mind; > but the weak mode is not easily interchanfable with the strong mode. > Activity is weakness and consquently miserable; passivity is > strength and therefore blissful. The dormant strength is not > apparent and therefore not availed of. > The cosmic mind, manifesting in some rare beings, is able to effect > the linkage in > others of the individual (weak) mind with the > universal (strong) mind of the inner recess. Such a rare being is > called the Guru or God in manifestation. " > > God Bles > mourad > > Mourad would like to add, In Islam The Guru or God in manifestion, > is called, according to the Qur'an " The Khalif of God on earth " . > I hope that this explains what I wish to convey. > > , " alan jacobs " > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > I am somewhat cautious in interpreting your Recluses's message. > When he > > says 'that to say I AM is blasphemous' , he seems to suggest that > it is > > sheer egotism, synonmyous with the I CONCEIT or I AM THE BODY > idea. In > > fact the phrase I AM is often used by Sages > to denote the > essential I > > AMNESS or SELF e.g. I AM THAT. God 's name I AM THAT I AM is > immanent > > as the Self, as well as transcendent as GOD. So to proclaim I AM > in that > > sense would not be blasphemous. In the Psalmsfor example David > says 'Be > > still and know that I am God'. > > > > I would appreciate your comment. > > > > All warm regards, > > > > Alan > > > > > > , " mourad " <mourad_shamel@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > > > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is > > > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes > of > > > the society? > > > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible > for it's > > > existence. I am it. > > > Recluse: No, you are not it. > > > Man: How come? > > > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was > > > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > > > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional > logic > > > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you > > †" > > > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were > > > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > > > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is > through > > > direct instructions and commands †" which is very limited in the > > > process. While, what is more important in the process of > learning is > > > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > > > surroundings through empathy, the > child copies or replicates the > > > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family > > > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > > > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of > the > > > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning > > > process of the child †" even before the school age. Circumstances > > > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this > particular > > > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or > gifts > > > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns > to > > > construct for himself a self-image among others according to > their > > > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > > > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child > now > > > comes to identify himself > with such an image and considers that > he > > > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- > > > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > > > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do > > > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. > > > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I > am; is > > > a lie. > > > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. > If > > > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all > creatures > > > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > > > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by > > > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his > identity > > > or ego. > > > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true > thing. > > > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for > God > > > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the > only > > > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to > say I > > > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear Mourad please tell me from where this citation is taken.... tku so much please have patience with my reply have to go abroad in urgent matters for some days - if GD allows even if i do not answer as quick as this person would like to the honest travellers on the road back home are always connected ...... michael bindel - yosyx Sunday, May 18, 2008 3:53 AM Re: Identity and I Am. , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes of > the society? > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible for it's > existence. I am it. > Recluse: No, you are not it. > Man: How come? > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional logic > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you - > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is through > direct instructions and commands -which is very limited in the > process. While, what is more important in the process of learning is > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > surroundings through empathy, the child copies or replicates the > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of the > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning > process of the child -even before the school age. Circumstances > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this particular > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or gifts > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns to > construct for himself a self-image among others according to their > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child now > comes to identify himself with such an image and considers that he > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I am; is > a lie. > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. If > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all creatures > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his identity > or ego. > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true thing. > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for God > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the only > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to say I > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > indeed it is... god/self/truth/love/void/... the all-pervaiding, timeless and boundless, is one without a second, whole and totally inexplicable. saying " i am " , thus apparntly confining it to a paricular, bestowing the incomprehensble with form - is a transgression against the biblical first commandement, following the declaration " 'i am' the lord thy god " : " thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth " (exodus, ch. 20) any attempt to limit god to a concept or identity is blasphemy. god is incomparable. thank you, _()_ yosy Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release 14/05/2008 16.44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear Alan To continue, therefore if an ego says I AM, this is not correct. The Guru, is the Manifestation of God in my life, in the begining. Later on, as man matures, all phenomena -including what he used to consider his own during his ignorance- are the manifestations of God. This man is reduced to a witness to these magnificent phenomena, representing God, even the witness stand is devoid of witnesshood and could be termed functionless consciousness. A great confusion could arise if it is thought that when Realization of Truth occurs, I WOULD THINK THAT I AM GOD. This is the sole fear. p.s.In my last post - in the part concerning Islam- Khalif means a representative of God on earth. mourad ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Mourad, > > Thanks for your explanation. It seems the crucial meaning is contained in Ramana's words you quote i.e. > > " I Am is the name of God. The Absolure Being is what it is.It is the Self. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact God is none other than the Self. " > > With this I am in full agreement and there is no ambiguity.. > > All best wishes, > > Alan > > > --- On Sat, 17/5/08, mourad <mourad_shamel wrote: > > mourad <mourad_shamel > Re: Identity and I Am. > > Saturday, 17 May, 2008, 7:40 PM Dear Alan > I will try to explain what I meant by using the words of Ramana > Maharshi. From the book " Talks with Sri Ralana Maharshi " > seventh edition 1984 published by T.N. VENKATARMAN. > > In page 101-102 > " Mr. C. R. Wright, his secretary asked: How shall I realise God? > M: God is an unkown entity. Moreover He is external. Whereas, the > Self is always with you and it is you.Why do you leave out what is > intimate and go in for what is external? > D: What is the Self again? > M: The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. You always exist. > The Be-ing is the Self. " I am " is the name of God. Of all the > definitions of God, non is indeed so well put as the Biblical > statment " I AM THAT I AM " in Exodus (Chapter 3). > There are other statments, such as Brahmaivham, Aham Brahmasmi and > Soham. But non is so direct as the name JEHOVA= I AM. The Absolute > being is what is. It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, > God > is known. In fact God is non other than the Self. " > > In page 154-155. > " 188. The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness. When > the ego however, dominates it, it functions as the reasoning, > thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind being not limited by > the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only > aware. This is what the Bible means by " I AM THAT I AM " . > The ego ridden mind has its strengh sapped and is too week to resist > the torturing thoughts. The egoless mind is happy in deep dreamless > state. Clearly therefore Bliss and misery are only modes of mind; > but the weak mode is not easily interchanfable with the strong mode. > Activity is weakness and consquently miserable; passivity is > strength and therefore blissful. The dormant strength is not > apparent and therefore not availed of. > The cosmic mind, manifesting in some rare beings, is able to effect > the linkage in > others of the individual (weak) mind with the > universal (strong) mind of the inner recess. Such a rare being is > called the Guru or God in manifestation. " > > God Bles > mourad > > Mourad would like to add, In Islam The Guru or God in manifestion, > is called, according to the Qur'an " The Khalif of God on earth " . > I hope that this explains what I wish to convey. > > , " alan jacobs " > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > I am somewhat cautious in interpreting your Recluses's message. > When he > > says 'that to say I AM is blasphemous' , he seems to suggest that > it is > > sheer egotism, synonmyous with the I CONCEIT or I AM THE BODY > idea. In > > fact the phrase I AM is often used by Sages > to denote the > essential I > > AMNESS or SELF e.g. I AM THAT. God 's name I AM THAT I AM is > immanent > > as the Self, as well as transcendent as GOD. So to proclaim I AM > in that > > sense would not be blasphemous. In the Psalmsfor example David > says 'Be > > still and know that I am God'. > > > > I would appreciate your comment. > > > > All warm regards, > > > > Alan > > > > > > , " mourad " <mourad_shamel@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > > > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it is > > > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the eyes > of > > > the society? > > > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible > for it's > > > existence. I am it. > > > Recluse: No, you are not it. > > > Man: How come? > > > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man was > > > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > > > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional > logic > > > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says you > > †" > > > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others were > > > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > > > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is > through > > > direct instructions and commands †" which is very limited in the > > > process. While, what is more important in the process of > learning is > > > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > > > surroundings through empathy, the > child copies or replicates the > > > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and family > > > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > > > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism of > the > > > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the learning > > > process of the child †" even before the school age. Circumstances > > > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this > particular > > > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or > gifts > > > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child learns > to > > > construct for himself a self-image among others according to > their > > > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > > > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child > now > > > comes to identify himself > with such an image and considers that > he > > > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no self- > > > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > > > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to do > > > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue identity. > > > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I > am; is > > > a lie. > > > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false existence. > If > > > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all > creatures > > > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > > > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm by > > > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his > identity > > > or ego. > > > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true > thing. > > > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only for > God > > > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is the > only > > > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to > say I > > > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear Mourad, It's all abundantly clear now. Thanks. All best wishes and regards Alan , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > Dear Alan > To continue, therefore if an ego says I AM, this is not correct. > The Guru, is the Manifestation of God in my life, in the begining. > Later on, as man matures, all phenomena -including what he used to > consider his own during his ignorance- are the manifestations of God. > This man is reduced to a witness to these magnificent phenomena, > representing God, even the witness stand is devoid of witnesshood > and could be termed functionless consciousness. > A great confusion could arise if it is thought that when Realization > of Truth occurs, I WOULD THINK THAT I AM GOD. This is the sole fear. > > p.s.In my last post - in the part concerning Islam- Khalif means a > representative of God on earth. > mourad > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > , Alan Jacobs > alanadamsjacobs@ wrote: > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > Thanks for your explanation. It seems the crucial meaning is > contained in Ramana's words you quote i.e. > > > > " I Am is the name of God. The Absolure Being is what it is.It is > the Self. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact God is none other > than the Self. " > > > > With this I am in full agreement and there is no ambiguity.. > > > > All best wishes, > > > > Alan > > > > > > --- On Sat, 17/5/08, mourad mourad_shamel@ wrote: > > > > mourad mourad_shamel@ > > Re: Identity and I Am. > > > > Saturday, 17 May, 2008, 7:40 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Alan > > I will try to explain what I meant by using the words of Ramana > > Maharshi. From the book " Talks with Sri Ralana Maharshi " > > seventh edition 1984 published by T.N. VENKATARMAN. > > > > In page 101-102 > > " Mr. C. R. Wright, his secretary asked: How shall I realise God? > > M: God is an unkown entity. Moreover He is external. Whereas, the > > Self is always with you and it is you.Why do you leave out what is > > intimate and go in for what is external? > > D: What is the Self again? > > M: The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. You always > exist. > > The Be-ing is the Self. " I am " is the name of God. Of all the > > definitions of God, non is indeed so well put as the Biblical > > statment " I AM THAT I AM " in Exodus (Chapter 3). > > There are other statments, such as Brahmaivham, Aham Brahmasmi and > > Soham. But non is so direct as the name JEHOVA= I AM. The Absolute > > being is what is. It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, > > God > > is known. In fact God is non other than the Self. " > > > > In page 154-155. > > " 188. The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness. When > > the ego however, dominates it, it functions as the reasoning, > > thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind being not limited by > > the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only > > aware. This is what the Bible means by " I AM THAT I AM " . > > The ego ridden mind has its strengh sapped and is too week to > resist > > the torturing thoughts. The egoless mind is happy in deep > dreamless > > state. Clearly therefore Bliss and misery are only modes of mind; > > but the weak mode is not easily interchanfable with the strong > mode. > > Activity is weakness and consquently miserable; passivity is > > strength and therefore blissful. The dormant strength is not > > apparent and therefore not availed of. > > The cosmic mind, manifesting in some rare beings, is able to > effect > > the linkage in > > others of the individual (weak) mind with the > > universal (strong) mind of the inner recess. Such a rare being is > > called the Guru or God in manifestation. " > > > > God Bles > > mourad > > > > Mourad would like to add, In Islam The Guru or God in manifestion, > > is called, according to the Qur'an " The Khalif of God on earth " . > > I hope that this explains what I wish to convey. > > > > , " alan jacobs " > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > > > I am somewhat cautious in interpreting your Recluses's message. > > When he > > > says 'that to say I AM is blasphemous' , he seems to suggest > that > > it is > > > sheer egotism, synonmyous with the I CONCEIT or I AM THE BODY > > idea. In > > > fact the phrase I AM is often used by Sages > > to denote the > > essential I > > > AMNESS or SELF e.g. I AM THAT. God 's name I AM THAT I AM is > > immanent > > > as the Self, as well as transcendent as GOD. So to proclaim I AM > > in that > > > sense would not be blasphemous. In the Psalmsfor example David > > says 'Be > > > still and know that I am God'. > > > > > > I would appreciate your comment. > > > > > > All warm regards, > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > , " mourad " > <mourad_shamel@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Recluse:The subject of identification or your identity. Is it > > > > legitimately yours; due to your own qualities and effort or it > is > > > > only a Grace from God to cover you most beautifully in the > eyes > > of > > > > the society? > > > > Man: The identity of mine, this " me " , I am responsible > > for it's > > > > existence. I am it. > > > > Recluse: No, you are not it. > > > > Man: How come? > > > > Recluse: Let us together examine this from the beginning. Man > was > > > > created with no knowledge whatsoever. In his childhood, man was > > > > presented and subjected to the knowledge of the conventional > > logic > > > > prevailing in his society. A conventional knowledge that says > you > > > †" > > > > as a child- are not alone you are among others. These others > were > > > > very caring and loving, he was not yet subjected to the hostile > > > > others. The child's knowledge of the conventional logic is > > through > > > > direct instructions and commands †" which is very limited in > the > > > > process. While, what is more important in the process of > > learning is > > > > empathy. The child learns every worldly reaction from his > > > > surroundings through empathy, the > > child copies or replicates the > > > > reactions, he senses and feels the fear of his parents and > family > > > > concerning certain conditions, the anger, the pleasures and so > > > > forth. This empathetic way of knowing, this copying mechanism > of > > the > > > > conventional logic of humans is the corner stone in the > learning > > > > process of the child †" even before the school age. > Circumstances > > > > offer themselves to the child. The child finds that this > > particular > > > > behavior in this particular incident repays him by applause or > > gifts > > > > from others. Therefore, he learns opportunism. The child > learns > > to > > > > construct for himself a self-image among others according to > > their > > > > rules, and forgets totally that it was all due to the created > > > > circumstances that made him appear in such an image. The child > > now > > > > comes to identify himself > > with such an image and considers that > > he > > > > is this image, forgetting totally that originally he had no > self- > > > > image. This is what is meant when the sage or prophets speak of > > > > identification and claiming. You claim what you had nothing to > do > > > > with and identify with it. Lies, lies and false untrue > identity. > > > > Man: Are you telling me that I only exist through this lie, I > > am; is > > > > a lie. > > > > Recluse: Yes, I am; is the root lie of all your false > existence. > > If > > > > you compare all creature with man. You will find that all > > creatures > > > > are living perfectly well without the need to form an ego or an > > > > identity. Man is the only creature who deviated from this norm > by > > > > his opportunism and competitiveness, by the creation of his > > identity > > > > or ego. > > > > Man: But all sages say that I Am is the only true > > thing. > > > > Recluse: Yes, I Am is the only true thing. This I Am is only > for > > God > > > > to say it, not you. It is God that has the identity; God is > the > > only > > > > Identity Existing. It is God who has the right and entitled to > > say I > > > > Am, not you. If you ever say I Am, it will be blasphemy. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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