Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately appears, trying to describe something that can never be experienced as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we think that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to be lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, which might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For example, there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so forth. If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at these mystical scriptures as philosophies and doctrines. To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of every man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic worldly living. I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as Absolute or an ultimate experience. He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this experience, will never understand anything and will never taste egolessness. He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in a state of surrender without a center and your true being is freed to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you are in now. What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so because it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of –as a child- the moment he is born and the child does not know anything –yet- to compare It with. The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the description of " in " and " out " . The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO CLAIM IT. What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of the body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered in the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning that body and owning that consciousness. This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware of a mother. The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, even before feeling the need. When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it yet –through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness or a true spiritual Heaven. Not the psychological or worldly heaven of Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless children. A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing fire in a fireplace. Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where there were no comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a child. This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there with my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare it with. If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means to go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. mourad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear Mourad, I am sure you are right! unless the child has started to identify with a false sense of 'me' brought about by the fond parents showing he or she its face in the mirror, and sying that's YOU my darling! To which the child says, " oh is that me? " and feeing its chubby face and a tiny body, compounded by the sense of touch. He or she is now, as Douglas Harding used to say, " a fully fledged, paid up member of the human club. " Later he or she identifies with his inner thoughts which he or she learns to call 'my mind'. He or she now has to learn to find the 'way back home' or as the Taoists say find his 'original face' not the one in the mirror. All best wishes and thanks for the stimulating postings, they are great for pondering, Alan --- On Sun, 18/5/08, mourad <mourad_shamel wrote: mourad <mourad_shamel The Absolute and The Ultimate. Sunday, 18 May, 2008, 10:25 AM When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately appears, trying to describe something that can never be experienced as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we think that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to be lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, which might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For example, there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so forth. If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at these mystical scriptures as philosophies and doctrines. To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of every man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic worldly living. I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as Absolute or an ultimate experience. He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this experience, will never understand anything and will never taste egolessness. He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in a state of surrender without a center and your true being is freed to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you are in now. What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so because it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of –as a child- the moment he is born and the child does not know anything –yet- to compare It with. The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the description of " in " and " out " . The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO CLAIM IT. What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of the body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered in the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning that body and owning that consciousness. This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware of a mother. The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, even before feeling the need. When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it yet –through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness or a true spiritual Heaven. Not the psychological or worldly heaven of Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless children. A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing fire in a fireplace. Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where there were no comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a child. This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there with my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare it with. If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means to go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. mourad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately > appears, trying to describe something that can never be experienced > as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we think > that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to be > lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying > of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look > deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao > te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, which > might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For example, > there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, > God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so forth. > > If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then > there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at > these mystical scriptures as philosophies and doctrines. > > To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of every > man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not > recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic > worldly living. > > I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as > Absolute or an ultimate experience. > > He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the > Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this > experience, will never understand anything and will never taste > egolessness. > > He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose > himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever > experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the > Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. > > With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in > a state of surrender without a center and your true being is freed > to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you are > in now. > > What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute > consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because > there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. > > Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so because > it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of –as a child- the > moment he is born and the child does not know anything –yet- to > compare It with. > > The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not > yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the > description of " in " and " out " . > > The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO > CLAIM IT. > > What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and > will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of the > body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered in > the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning > that body and owning that consciousness. > > This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes > it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT > directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware of > a mother. > > The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. > When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved > by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. > > All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, even > before feeling the need. > > When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, > where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it > yet –through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness or a > true spiritual Heaven. Not the psychological or worldly heaven of > Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? > > A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free > from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were > egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless > children. > > A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely > contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or > watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching > ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is > knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing > fire in a fireplace. > > Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? > > Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this > as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? > > What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where > there were no comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a > child. > > This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there with > my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no > more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare > it with. > > If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an > Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means to > go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as > that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. > > mourad > thank you, mourad. excellent and true. (except, of course, the mother fixation - no orphans are devoid of the absolute truth...) and consciousness is not an experience; no divisions or seperations in the whole. there is none to experience totality. _()_ yosy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear Alan, It is the fault of the knowledge of the conventional knowledge. Moreover, I noticed that some children feel grateful to their parents while others do not! Feeling gratful and indebted is a wide door to the Divine. Do you think Dear Alan; that there is something - lacking or wrong- in the developement of their minds those who are not grateful? This question had been bothering me for quite some time, to the extent that I sarted reading about the " theory of mind " . I reached certain conclusions, but not for sure. Please comment. mourad , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Mourad, > > I am sure you are right! unless the child has started to identify with a false sense of 'me' brought about by the fond parents showing he or she its face in the mirror, and sying that's YOU my darling! To which the child says, " oh is that me? " and feeing its chubby face and a tiny body, compounded by the sense of touch. He or she is now, as Douglas Harding used to say, " a fully fledged, paid up member of the human club. " Later he or she identifies with his inner thoughts which he or she learns to call 'my mind'. He or she now has to learn to find the 'way back home' or as the Taoists say find his 'original face' not the one in the mirror. > > All best wishes and thanks for the stimulating postings, they are great for pondering, > > Alan > > --- On Sun, 18/5/08, mourad <mourad_shamel wrote: > > mourad <mourad_shamel > The Absolute and The Ultimate. > > Sunday, 18 May, 2008, 10:25 AM When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately > appears, trying to describe something that can never be experienced > as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we think > that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to be > lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying > of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look > deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao > te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, which > might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For example, > there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, > God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so forth. > > If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then > there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at > these mystical scriptures as philosophies > and doctrines. > > To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of every > man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not > recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic > worldly living. > > I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as > Absolute or an ultimate experience. > > He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the > Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this > experience, will never understand anything and will never taste > egolessness. > > He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose > himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever > experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the > Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. > > With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in > a state of surrender without a > center and your true being is freed > to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you are > in now. > > What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute > consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because > there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. > > Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so because > it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of †" as a child- the > moment he is born and the child does not know anything †" yet- to > compare It with. > > The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not > yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the > description of " in " and " out " . > > The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO > CLAIM IT. > > What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and > will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of > the > body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered in > the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning > that body and owning that consciousness. > > This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes > it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT > directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware of > a mother. > > The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. > When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved > by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. > > All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, even > before feeling the need. > > When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, > where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it > yet †" through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness or a > true spiritual Heaven. > Not the psychological or worldly heaven of > Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? > > A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free > from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were > egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless > children. > > A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely > contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or > watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching > ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is > knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing > fire in a fireplace. > > Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? > > Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this > as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? > > What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where > there were no > comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a > child. > > This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there with > my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no > more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare > it with. > > If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an > Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means to > go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as > that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. > > mourad > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear yosy Thank you very much.Reality Experience Itself. mourad , " yosyx " <yosyflug wrote: > > , " mourad " <mourad_shamel@> > wrote: > > > > When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately > > appears, trying to describe something that can never be experienced > > as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we think > > that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to be > > lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying > > of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look > > deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao > > te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, which > > might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For example, > > there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, > > God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so forth. > > > > If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then > > there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at > > these mystical scriptures as philosophies and doctrines. > > > > To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of > every > > man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not > > recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic > > worldly living. > > > > I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as > > Absolute or an ultimate experience. > > > > He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the > > Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this > > experience, will never understand anything and will never taste > > egolessness. > > > > He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose > > himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever > > experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the > > Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. > > > > With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in > > a state of surrender without a center and your true being is freed > > to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you are > > in now. > > > > What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute > > consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because > > there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. > > > > Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so because > > it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of –as a child- the > > moment he is born and the child does not know anything –yet- to > > compare It with. > > > > The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not > > yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the > > description of " in " and " out " . > > > > The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO > > CLAIM IT. > > > > What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and > > will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of the > > body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered in > > the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning > > that body and owning that consciousness. > > > > This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes > > it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT > > directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware of > > a mother. > > > > The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. > > When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved > > by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. > > > > All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, even > > before feeling the need. > > > > When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, > > where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it > > yet –through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness or a > > true spiritual Heaven. Not the psychological or worldly heaven of > > Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? > > > > A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free > > from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were > > egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless > > children. > > > > A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely > > contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or > > watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching > > ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is > > knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing > > fire in a fireplace. > > > > Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? > > > > Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this > > as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? > > > > What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where > > there were no comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a > > child. > > > > This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there with > > my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no > > more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare > > it with. > > > > If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an > > Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means to > > go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as > > that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. > > > > mourad > > > > > > thank you, mourad. excellent and true. > (except, of course, the mother fixation - > no orphans are devoid of the absolute > truth...) > and consciousness is not an experience; > no divisions or seperations in the whole. > there is none to experience totality. > > _()_ > yosy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2008 Report Share Posted May 18, 2008 Dear Mourad, I think children feeling ungrateful to parents is possibly 'Karmatic' and may be due to an ungrateful tendency inherited from a previous life. Otherwise it can be that the child , if treated unkindly, will after a time feel ungrateful. However with wisdom any feeling of ingratitude to parents should be redressed, as it is an undesirable tendency, and will have to go, sooner or later. These are personal views, and not from any theoretical knowledge of the subject. All best wishes, As always, Alan , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > Dear Alan, > It is the fault of the knowledge of the conventional knowledge. > Moreover, I noticed that some children feel grateful to their > parents while others do not! Feeling gratful and indebted is a wide > door to the Divine. Do you think Dear Alan; that there is something - > lacking or wrong- in the developement of their minds those who are > not grateful? This question had been bothering me for quite some > time, to the extent that I sarted reading about the " theory of > mind " . I reached certain conclusions, but not for sure. > Please comment. > > mourad > > , Alan Jacobs > alanadamsjacobs@ wrote: > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > I am sure you are right! unless the child has started to identify > with a false sense of 'me' brought about by the fond parents showing > he or she its face in the mirror, and sying that's YOU my darling! > To which the child says, " oh is that me? " and feeing its chubby face > and a tiny body, compounded by the sense of touch. He or she is now, > as Douglas Harding used to say, " a fully fledged, paid up member of > the human club. " Later he or she identifies with his inner thoughts > which he or she learns to call 'my mind'. He or she now has to learn > to find the 'way back home' or as the Taoists say find his 'original > face' not the one in the mirror. > > > > All best wishes and thanks for the stimulating postings, they are > great for pondering, > > > > Alan > > > > --- On Sun, 18/5/08, mourad mourad_shamel@ wrote: > > > > mourad mourad_shamel@ > > The Absolute and The > Ultimate. > > > > Sunday, 18 May, 2008, 10:25 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately > > appears, trying to describe something that can never be > experienced > > as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we > think > > that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to > be > > lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying > > of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look > > deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao > > te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, > which > > might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For > example, > > there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, > > God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so > forth. > > > > If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then > > there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at > > these mystical scriptures as philosophies > > and doctrines. > > > > To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of > every > > man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not > > recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic > > worldly living. > > > > I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as > > Absolute or an ultimate experience. > > > > He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the > > Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this > > experience, will never understand anything and will never taste > > egolessness. > > > > He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose > > himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever > > experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the > > Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. > > > > With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in > > a state of surrender without a > > center and your true being is freed > > to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you > are > > in now. > > > > What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute > > consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because > > there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. > > > > Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so > because > > it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of †" as a child- > the > > moment he is born and the child does not know anything †" yet- to > > compare It with. > > > > The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not > > yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the > > description of " in " and " out " . > > > > The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO > > CLAIM IT. > > > > What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and > > will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of > > the > > body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered > in > > the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning > > that body and owning that consciousness. > > > > This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes > > it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT > > directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware > of > > a mother. > > > > The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. > > When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved > > by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. > > > > All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, > even > > before feeling the need. > > > > When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, > > where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it > > yet †" through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness > or a > > true spiritual Heaven. > > Not the psychological or worldly heaven of > > Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? > > > > A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free > > from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were > > egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless > > children. > > > > A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely > > contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or > > watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching > > ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is > > knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing > > fire in a fireplace. > > > > Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? > > > > Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this > > as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? > > > > What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where > > there were no > > comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a > > child. > > > > This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there > with > > my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no > > more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare > > it with. > > > > If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an > > Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means > to > > go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as > > that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. > > > > mourad > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2008 Report Share Posted May 19, 2008 Dear Mourad, A further thought on 'alienation from parents'. Sometimes children feel a failure , at jobs, school, sport, friends, career etc. If this is very painful, one strategy is to blame one's parents 'for not bringing me up properly'. It is a common cause of so called 'teen age rebellion' . I hope this may be helpful in your research. Warm regards, As ever, alan , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Mourad, > > I am sure you are right! unless the child has started to identify with a false sense of 'me' brought about by the fond parents showing he or she its face in the mirror, and sying that's YOU my darling! To which the child says, " oh is that me? " and feeing its chubby face and a tiny body, compounded by the sense of touch. He or she is now, as Douglas Harding used to say, " a fully fledged, paid up member of the human club. " Later he or she identifies with his inner thoughts which he or she learns to call 'my mind'. He or she now has to learn to find the 'way back home' or as the Taoists say find his 'original face' not the one in the mirror. > > All best wishes and thanks for the stimulating postings, they are great for pondering, > > Alan > > --- On Sun, 18/5/08, mourad mourad_shamel wrote: > > mourad mourad_shamel > The Absolute and The Ultimate. > > Sunday, 18 May, 2008, 10:25 AM When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately > appears, trying to describe something that can never be experienced > as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we think > that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to be > lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying > of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look > deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao > te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, which > might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For example, > there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, > God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so forth. > > If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then > there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at > these mystical scriptures as philosophies > and doctrines. > > To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of every > man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not > recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic > worldly living. > > I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as > Absolute or an ultimate experience. > > He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the > Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this > experience, will never understand anything and will never taste > egolessness. > > He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose > himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever > experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the > Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. > > With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in > a state of surrender without a > center and your true being is freed > to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you are > in now. > > What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute > consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because > there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. > > Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so because > it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of †" as a child- the > moment he is born and the child does not know anything †" yet- to > compare It with. > > The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not > yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the > description of " in " and " out " . > > The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO > CLAIM IT. > > What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and > will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of > the > body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered in > the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning > that body and owning that consciousness. > > This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes > it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT > directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware of > a mother. > > The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. > When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved > by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. > > All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, even > before feeling the need. > > When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, > where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it > yet †" through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness or a > true spiritual Heaven. > Not the psychological or worldly heaven of > Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? > > A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free > from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were > egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless > children. > > A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely > contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or > watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching > ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is > knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing > fire in a fireplace. > > Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? > > Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this > as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? > > What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where > there were no > comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a > child. > > This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there with > my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no > more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare > it with. > > If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an > Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means to > go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as > that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. > > mourad > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2008 Report Share Posted May 19, 2008 Dear Alan Thank you for your love. In your first answer, you said " karma " . That opened a great door. Mature souls and immature souls. Mature souls are created in a love environment, their mind develops at an earlier age than the immature souls. By mind developement I mean that the child is able to identify others.The mature souls recognize the caring otherness first and remain enjoying it for some time.At a later age they experience the hostile otherness as well. Therefore, they can feel gratitude, which later serves as the Love of God. Moreover, they have a loving caring UNIPOLAR experience in their lives -when they were still egoless-, that they can return to, when they join a spiritual path. On the other hand the immature soules are created in a differnt, not so caring environment, their mind developement is at a later age, so that they are subjected to both the loving as well as the hostile otherness at the same time. They have a bipolar experience.They are not drawn to mysticism and completely worldly. mourad , " alan jacobs " <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > > Dear Mourad, > > A further thought on 'alienation from parents'. > > Sometimes children feel a failure , at jobs, school, sport, friends, > career etc. If this is very painful, one strategy is to blame one's > parents 'for not bringing me up properly'. It is a common cause of so > called 'teen age rebellion' . > > I hope this may be helpful in your research. > > Warm regards, > > As ever, > > alan > > > , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > I am sure you are right! unless the child has started to identify with > a false sense of 'me' brought about by the fond parents showing he or > she its face in the mirror, and sying that's YOU my darling! To which > the child says, " oh is that me? " and feeing its chubby face and a tiny > body, compounded by the sense of touch. He or she is now, as Douglas > Harding used to say, " a fully fledged, paid up member of the human > club. " Later he or she identifies with his inner thoughts which he or > she learns to call 'my mind'. He or she now has to learn to find the > 'way back home' or as the Taoists say find his 'original face' not the > one in the mirror. > > > > All best wishes and thanks for the stimulating postings, they are > great for pondering, > > > > Alan > > > > --- On Sun, 18/5/08, mourad mourad_shamel@ wrote: > > > > mourad mourad_shamel@ > > The Absolute and The Ultimate. > > > > Sunday, 18 May, 2008, 10:25 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge immediately > > appears, trying to describe something that can never be experienced > > as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we think > > that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to be > > lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the saying > > of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look > > deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to Tao > > te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, which > > might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For example, > > there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, > > God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so forth. > > > > If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then > > there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at > > these mystical scriptures as philosophies > > and doctrines. > > > > To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of every > > man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not > > recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic > > worldly living. > > > > I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as > > Absolute or an ultimate experience. > > > > He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through the > > Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this > > experience, will never understand anything and will never taste > > egolessness. > > > > He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not lose > > himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never ever > > experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the > > Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be experienced. > > > > With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are in > > a state of surrender without a > > center and your true being is freed > > to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you are > > in now. > > > > What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute > > consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because > > there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. > > > > Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so because > > it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of †" as a > child- the > > moment he is born and the child does not know anything †" yet- to > > compare It with. > > > > The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did not > > yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the > > description of " in " and " out " . > > > > The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER TO > > CLAIM IT. > > > > What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and > > will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of > > the > > body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet centered in > > the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning > > that body and owning that consciousness. > > > > This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also makes > > it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, IT > > directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is unaware of > > a mother. > > > > The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. > > When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately relieved > > by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. > > > > All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, even > > before feeling the need. > > > > When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, > > where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost it > > yet †" through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness > or a > > true spiritual Heaven. > > Not the psychological or worldly heaven of > > Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? > > > > A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free > > from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were > > egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless > > children. > > > > A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely > > contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or > > watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching > > ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is > > knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the dancing > > fire in a fireplace. > > > > Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? > > > > Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of this > > as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? > > > > What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, where > > there were no > > comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a > > child. > > > > This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there with > > my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was no > > more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare > > it with. > > > > If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an > > Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means to > > go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as > > that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. > > > > mourad > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2008 Report Share Posted May 19, 2008 Dear Mourad, I quite agree. This point of view about an auspicious birth for mature souls, is reinforced by the Gita's assurance that a man or woman who stives ceaselessly for Truth, even if it is not reached in this lifetime, will be born in the next life in a 'goodly womb' with devout parents, probably leading to Self Realisation in that life. It is interesting that when people asked Ramana how he had Realised so early without Sadhana or a Guru, he said " it must have been a previous life. " All love, As ever, alan -- In , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > Dear Alan > > Thank you for your love. In your first answer, you said " karma " . > That opened a great door. > Mature souls and immature souls. > > Mature souls are created in a love environment, their mind develops > at an earlier age than the immature souls. By mind developement I > mean that the child is able to identify others.The mature souls > recognize the caring otherness first and remain enjoying it for some > time.At a later age they experience the hostile otherness as well. > Therefore, they can feel gratitude, which later serves as the Love > of God. Moreover, they have a loving caring UNIPOLAR experience in > their lives -when they were still egoless-, that they can return to, > when they join a spiritual path. > > On the other hand the immature soules are created in a differnt, not > so caring environment, their mind developement is at a later age, so > that they are subjected to both the loving as well as the hostile > otherness at the same time. They have a bipolar experience.They are > not drawn to mysticism and completely worldly. > > mourad > > > , " alan jacobs " > <alanadamsjacobs@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > A further thought on 'alienation from parents'. > > > > Sometimes children feel a failure , at jobs, school, sport, > friends, > > career etc. If this is very painful, one strategy is to blame > one's > > parents 'for not bringing me up properly'. It is a common cause of > so > > called 'teen age rebellion' . > > > > I hope this may be helpful in your research. > > > > Warm regards, > > > > As ever, > > > > alan > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > > > I am sure you are right! unless the child has started to > identify with > > a false sense of 'me' brought about by the fond parents showing he > or > > she its face in the mirror, and sying that's YOU my darling! To > which > > the child says, " oh is that me? " and feeing its chubby face and a > tiny > > body, compounded by the sense of touch. He or she is now, as > Douglas > > Harding used to say, " a fully fledged, paid up member of the human > > club. " Later he or she identifies with his inner thoughts which he > or > > she learns to call 'my mind'. He or she now has to learn to find > the > > 'way back home' or as the Taoists say find his 'original face' not > the > > one in the mirror. > > > > > > All best wishes and thanks for the stimulating postings, they are > > great for pondering, > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > --- On Sun, 18/5/08, mourad mourad_shamel@ wrote: > > > > > > mourad mourad_shamel@ > > > The Absolute and The > Ultimate. > > > > > > Sunday, 18 May, 2008, 10:25 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When we talk about the Absolute, theoretical knowledge > immediately > > > appears, trying to describe something that can never be > experienced > > > as a factual living. This state of affairs happens because we > think > > > that any absolute is an abstract concept, which is impossible to > be > > > lived and experienced in our everyday living. We forget the > saying > > > of the Buddha " The everyday mind is the Buddha mind " . If we look > > > deeply in all mystical scriptures from Quran, the good book to > Tao > > > te ching, they all speak about an ultimate Living Experience, > which > > > might be named differently in each mystical scripture. For > example, > > > there is Nirvana of Buddhism, Absolute Consciousness of Vedanta, > > > God's Face in Islam, Garden of Eden, Kingdom of Heaven and so > forth. > > > > > > If this Absolute in these mystical writings is not livable, then > > > there would have been no use to mention them; unless we look at > > > these mystical scriptures as philosophies > > > and doctrines. > > > > > > To my mind, the Absolute is a living experience in the life of > every > > > man; but it is not recognized by man, not appreciated and not > > > recorded, it just happened; due to man's captivation with egoic > > > worldly living. > > > > > > I will try to point to a living experience that could fit as > > > Absolute or an ultimate experience. > > > > > > He, who -as a child- has not experienced his daily life through > the > > > Love showering on him from his mother, and does not value this > > > experience, will never understand anything and will never taste > > > egolessness. > > > > > > He, who - as a child - while holding his mother's hand did not > lose > > > himself absolutely in the experience of daily life, will never > ever > > > experience the factual living Absolute Consciousness, not the > > > Theoretical absolute consciousness -that could not be > experienced. > > > > > > With your mother holding your hand, your ego is no more; you are > in > > > a state of surrender without a > > > center and your true being is freed > > > to watch and witness what is taking place in the experience you > are > > > in now. > > > > > > What is experienced in this Experience? it is the absolute > > > consciousness or unconditioned or unlimited Consciousness because > > > there is no ego to make it relative or condition or limit. > > > > > > Why it is designated Absolute Consciousness? It is called so > because > > > it is the first thing that man becomes Conscious of †" as a > > child- the > > > moment he is born and the child does not know anything †" yet- to > > > compare It with. > > > > > > The artificial separation of Consciousness and its contents did > not > > > yet happen because there is still no ego to put conditions or the > > > description of " in " and " out " . > > > > > > The Experience is ONE WHOLE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUTOUT ANY CENTER > TO > > > CLAIM IT. > > > > > > What the child is Conscious of had been there since whenever, and > > > will remain there till whenever even after the disintegration of > > > the > > > body of the child, because this consciousness is not yet > centered in > > > the body of the child by the created ego and its claims of owning > > > that body and owning that consciousness. > > > > > > This Experience is SELF MENTAINED and SELF RELAYANT that also > makes > > > it Absolute. This Experience is Cognizant and Caring of ITSELF, > IT > > > directs the mother to nurse the child, while the child is > unaware of > > > a mother. > > > > > > The child only Experiences two modes, comfort and discomfort. > > > When discomfort occurs -hunger or cold- it is immediately > relieved > > > by the " mother " so that comfort is established once more. > > > > > > All the child's needs are answered without him asking anything, > even > > > before feeling the need. > > > > > > When the Child grows older he, lives in a true Spiritual Heaven, > > > where absolute Consciousness is Still Experienced, has not lost > it > > > yet †" through the creation of his ego. An Absolute Consciousness > > or a > > > true spiritual Heaven. > > > Not the psychological or worldly heaven of > > > Achievements, possessions and winning contests in life? > > > > > > A Heaven that is Incomparable. An Absolute existence that is free > > > from the limitation imposed by the ego. A Heaven when we were > > > egoless children. An Absolute existence when we were egoless > > > children. > > > > > > A very Simple Heaven; of being at ease, care free and absolutely > > > contented with eating a bar of chocolate beside your mother. Or > > > watching pigeons by your mother in a public square. Or watching > > > ducks in a pond? Or only sitting by your mother while she is > > > knitting in a cold winter, while you are just watching the > dancing > > > fire in a fireplace. > > > > > > Does this type of Heaven satisfy us? Or it is a child's play? > > > > > > Does it have a heaven in it? Is it simply nonsense to speak of > this > > > as a Heaven? Or as an Absolute Truth? > > > > > > What is described is a True spiritual Heaven, is an Absolute, > where > > > there were no > > > comparisons imposed on it by the " me " ; when I was a > > > child. > > > > > > This is an Incomparable experience, because I was totally there > with > > > my whole being and out of the intensity of the experience I was > no > > > more, and there was nothing beside what is experienced to compare > > > it with. > > > > > > If you find that this experience -just described- Fits an > > > Absolute, then you have found your lost Treasure. Find the means > to > > > go home and retrace your steps to go back and live as before -as > > > that child in his Heaven or the Absolute Truth. > > > > > > mourad > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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