Guest guest Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 I visited Tony Parsons website recently, and looked over what he has to say - and find it curiously devoid of interest. --- Being is totally whole just being. And it is alive and fleshy and sexy and juicy and immediately this; it's not some concept about `there's no-one here'. It's not some concept about `there's nowhere to go'. It is the aliveness that's in that body right now. There is pure beingness, pure aliveness. That's it. End of story. Really it is simply that. So there is no-one, there is no choice. --- --> " It's not some concept about 'there's no-one here'. So there is no-one, there is no choice. " Here's where Neo-advaita goes horribly wrong, in my view. All it can do is continually repeat some delightful-sounding things about " being " , that it isn't a concept, etc., then go on to fill the mind with concepts about no one, nothing and nobody. From here it's devoid of interest, isn't a " teaching " at all, or anything worthwhile or interesting. If " there is only being, and all is OK as is " then neo-advaita ought to go away. Parsons needs to keep quiet and live his life normally. Apparently he can't do that, so he's either trying to make a living selling books or trying to convince himself of his own concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > I visited Tony Parsons website recently, and looked over what he has > to say - and find it curiously devoid of interest. > Parsons needs to keep quiet and live his life normally. > Apparently he can't do that, so he's either trying to make a living > selling books or trying to convince himself of his own concepts. > Dear Tim, hello No offense, but... wouldn't be better to write all this to Parsons himself? (you may even be able to call him on the phone, it's free!) Looks to me there is some anger behind your words. By the way, some people will come to Advaita Vedanta and even Sri Bhagavan because of encountering Tony Parsons first, and then, want for more... As Bhagavan said once: Our job is to keep quiet... it may not apply to all situations, but reaffirms that famous quote that says: " If you are not going to improve the silence, better not say anything. " Just a thought. Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 > > > > I visited Tony Parsons website recently, and looked over what he > > has > > to say - and find it curiously devoid of interest. > > > Parsons needs to keep quiet and live his life normally. > > Apparently he can't do that, so he's either trying to make a > > living > > selling books or trying to convince himself of his own concepts. > > > Dear Tim, hello > > No offense, but... wouldn't be better to write all this to > Parsons himself? (you may even be able to call him on the phone, > it's > free!) Looks to me there is some anger behind your words. > By the way, some people will come to Advaita Vedanta and even Sri > Bhagavan because of encountering Tony Parsons first, and then, want > for more... > As Bhagavan said once: Our job is to keep quiet... it may not apply > to all situations, but reaffirms that famous quote that says: > " If you are not going to improve the silence, better not say > anything. " > > Just a thought. > Mouna ahh, but dear Mouna, Tim is just talking to himself <as most of us do> it is HIM who: " ..needs to keep quiet and live his life normally " :-) Era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 , " Era " <mi_nok wrote: > > > > > > > I visited Tony Parsons website recently, and looked over what he > > > has > > > to say - and find it curiously devoid of interest. > > > > > Parsons needs to keep quiet and live his life normally. > > > Apparently he can't do that, so he's either trying to make a > > > living > > > selling books or trying to convince himself of his own concepts. > > > > > > Dear Tim, hello > > > > No offense, but... wouldn't be better to write all this to > > Parsons himself? (you may even be able to call him on the phone, > > it's > > free!) Looks to me there is some anger behind your words. > > By the way, some people will come to Advaita Vedanta and even Sri > > Bhagavan because of encountering Tony Parsons first, and then, want > > for more... > > As Bhagavan said once: Our job is to keep quiet... it may not apply > > to all situations, but reaffirms that famous quote that says: > > " If you are not going to improve the silence, better not say > > anything. " > > > > Just a thought. > > Mouna > > > ahh, but dear Mouna, Tim is just talking to himself <as most of us do> > > it is HIM who: > > " ..needs to keep quiet and live his life normally " > > > :-) Era > Hi Friends Tim is just making a point on a list whose very purpose is to communicate points. Personally, I sensed no anger in Tim's points. But even if there was, let us take each point on it's own merits rather than comment on " each other's " psychological state of mind when making a point. Actually, I agree with what Tim has said. Add to that there is very little talk or understanding of compassion in the neo-Advaita or Tony Parson position. I have also read quotes form Tony where he inaccurately describes Advaita as saying there is a " seeker " who gets " enlightened " . But yes, naturally, some people, if they are not altogether captivated by the seemingly instant and easy allure of this " no process " TP / neo position, might just one day find true Advaita and Sri Ramana. Namaste Raph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 " Raph " <beingnothing00 wrote: > ...let us take each point on it's own merits rather than comment > on " each other's " psychological state of mind when making a point. > Ralph, namaste: Well taken observation, thanks. All the best, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 > > > ...let us take each point on it's own merits rather than comment > > on " each other's " psychological state of mind when making a point. > > > > Ralph, namaste: > > Well taken observation, thanks. > > All the best, > Mouna Yes, I stand corrected. Just two weeks ago Tim was voicing socalled neo-padvaitin thought, so I got confused by his post about Parsons. I like him. The neo-advaitin phenomena was discussed by Jerry Tim: Here's where Neo-advaita goes horribly wrong, in my view. All it can do is continually repeat some delightful-sounding things about " being " , that it isn't a concept, etc., then go on to fill the mind with concepts about no one, nothing and nobody. From here it's devoid of interest, isn't a " teaching " at all, or anything worthwhile or interesting. If " there is only being, and all is OK as is " then neo-advaita ought to go away. Parsons needs to keep quiet and live his life normally. Apparently he can't do that, so he's either trying to make a living selling books or trying to convince himself of his own concepts. Jerry: NondualitySalon/message/104744 --> " It's not some concept about 'there's no-one here'. So there is no-one, there is no choice. " About neo-advaita: " 'Neo-advaita' is a very recent phenomenon and its principal protagonists were unknown before the mid nineteen-nineties. It is the term used for the style of teaching that purports to express only the final, absolute truth of advaita. " " Neo-advaita is a belief-system without a system – i.e. no structure, no method, no practice; the `bottom line' without any preceding text. " The teachers of neo-advaita, though they do not use the term neo-advaita, include Tony Parsons, Jeff Foster, Richard Sylvester, Nathan Gill, and others. On (the claim that there is) nothing to do: " Given the basic premise of a non-dual reality, we must already be That (brahman). Logically, therefore, it would seem at first sight that it cannot make any sense that something needs to be done to bring this about. Tony Parsons asks, `But who is it that is going to choose to make the effort? There is no separate individual volition. How can an illusion dispel itself?' But this is the usual confusion of reality and appearance. In the empirical world, there are people who act. Effort to gain direct self-knowledge may eventually bring about realization. No effort will at best maintain the status quo. The confusion arises because of the failure to differentiate between being and knowing. We cannot do anything to be That which we already are but we can do something to remove our ignorance of the fact – namely seek self-knowledge. " from guru video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrBzEZOPf_Y Parsons caught in extreme advaita shuffle, Ramana did not exist AND was extremely dualistic because he spoke to outside persons supposed to do something. Ramana was supposedly working with people on different levels, but this is ignorance, there are no levels, and his method of self-inquiry was impossible, to track thoughts at the source is impossible. A bit of Mr Contrary Smart Ass. Ramana by proposing a method was imprisoning people. He is caught in correctiveness often, trying to adjust his concepts of person vs. non-person so as to look coherent, helping individuals while denying that they are there, he sweats on this endeavor. " Everything already is that, you don't need to come to another meeting " ... great, as he says when you have heard him once, you're done (with him at least). I had to check on the net if he doesn't have an alcohol issue (finally i have not found anything), because listening to his him in this video really makes you suspicious; he looks like one of those guys with a very cool public persona and some double life when the cameras are off. Tony Parsons claims somewhere else that eating watercress and a steak are the same, as they are all part of the oneness. (if he means oneness in taste then no need to harm animals) What is the point then to teach advaita to higher mammals if they might as well be butchered for food? " Era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Hi Raph, , " Raph " <beingnothing00 wrote: > > Hi Friends > > Tim is just making a point on a list whose very purpose is to > communicate points. > > Personally, I sensed no anger in Tim's points. But even if there > was, let us take each point on it's own merits rather than comment > on " each other's " psychological state of mind when making a point. You're right, there was no anger when I posted the original posting, although sometimes I can be pretty direct with what I say, and people can misinterpret that at times. Era said she heard me talking about something that sounded neo- advaitic to her; I don't watch my speech to make sure I sound " advaitic " rather than " neo-advaitic " , but instead speak from whatever sense of clarity happens to be here. So it could have been a mis-interpretation, or maybe I did say something that sounded neo- advaitic. " There is no ego " is true ultimately, but the point is that such a statement isn't a teaching, but can only be expressed authentically if there's a direct apperception of no ego being there. > Actually, I agree with what Tim has said. Add to that there is very > little talk or understanding of compassion in the neo-Advaita or > Tony Parson position. I have also read quotes form Tony where he > inaccurately describes Advaita as saying there is a " seeker " who > gets " enlightened " . > > But yes, naturally, some people, if they are not altogether > captivated by the seemingly instant and easy allure of this " no > process " TP / neo position, might just one day find true Advaita > and > Sri Ramana. > > Namaste > Raph I hope so, Raph... sometimes it seems people get stuck in a trap of affirm and re-affirming " there is no me " on a conceptual basis, as if they just repeated it often enough they could realize the Self. As we both know, it doesn't work that way ;-). Thanks for your comments... Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Dear Friends, Neo Advaita is fundamently flawed. I explain why in an article published in the Mountain Path. Harsha has kindly posted it on my blog. Briefly it & nbsp;is because they do not understand anything about 'reflected consciousness',- chidabhasa (padamalai 264-6) & nbsp;and the split mindedness of & nbsp; Suttarivu (See Padamalai 148 f,) previous lives, the unreality of the world etc.etc. None of the teachers have awakened, inspite of their claims, as the vasanas are still in full flood. The best value in it is that mature seekers move on to Ramana, the immature one's stay in a parking place, receiving monthly therapy for a fee, and no sadhana! They describe the destination without having taken the journey or suggesting the sadhana which is necessary to Realise the Self. & nbsp; Our Dennis Waite & nbsp;has just written a book full of cogent points criticising N/A in his new book @Enlightenment The Path Through the Jungle (O Books). Strongly reccommended. Love to all, Alan --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Tim G. & lt;fewtch & gt; wrote: Tim G. & lt;fewtch & gt; Short analysis of " neo-advaita " ... Friday, 6 June, 2008, 10:38 PM I visited Tony Parsons website recently, and looked over what he has to say - and find it curiously devoid of interest. --- Being is totally whole just being. And it is alive and fleshy and sexy and juicy and immediately this; it's not some concept about `there's no-one here'. It's not some concept about `there's nowhere to go'. It is the aliveness that's in that body right now. There is pure beingness, pure aliveness. That's it. End of story. Really it is simply that. So there is no-one, there is no choice. --- -- & gt; " It's not some concept about 'there's no-one here'. So there is no-one, there is no choice. " Here's where Neo-advaita goes horribly wrong, in my view. All it can do is continually repeat some delightful-sounding things about " being " , that it isn't a concept, etc., then go on to fill the mind with concepts about no one, nothing and nobody. From here it's devoid of interest, isn't a " teaching " at all, or anything worthwhile or interesting. If " there is only being, and all is OK as is " then neo-advaita ought to go away. Parsons needs to keep quiet and live his life normally. Apparently he can't do that, so he's either trying to make a living selling books or trying to convince himself of his own concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Dear Ralph/Tim/Era, Harsha & everyone else in this correspondence/loop Through a recent bug in my friend Alan Jacob's computer I seem to have somehow become included in your email correspondence. I have tried repeatedly to block your mail but my efforts don't seem to have any effect. Could I ask each and all of you to do what is necessary from your end(s) to exclude me as soon as possible. Thanks Aldia - Tim G. Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:04 AM Re: Short analysis of "neo-advaita"... Hi Raph, , "Raph" <beingnothing00 wrote:>> Hi Friends> > Tim is just making a point on a list whose very purpose is to > communicate points.> > Personally, I sensed no anger in Tim's points. But even if there > was, let us take each point on it's own merits rather than comment > on "each other's" psychological state of mind when making a point. You're right, there was no anger when I posted the original posting, although sometimes I can be pretty direct with what I say, and people can misinterpret that at times.Era said she heard me talking about something that sounded neo-advaitic to her; I don't watch my speech to make sure I sound "advaitic" rather than "neo-advaitic", but instead speak from whatever sense of clarity happens to be here. So it could have been a mis-interpretation, or maybe I did say something that sounded neo-advaitic. "There is no ego" is true ultimately, but the point is that such a statement isn't a teaching, but can only be expressed authentically if there's a direct apperception of no ego being there.> Actually, I agree with what Tim has said. Add to that there is very > little talk or understanding of compassion in the neo-Advaita or > Tony Parson position. I have also read quotes form Tony where he > inaccurately describes Advaita as saying there is a "seeker" who > gets "enlightened".> > But yes, naturally, some people, if they are not altogether > captivated by the seemingly instant and easy allure of this "no > process" TP / neo position, might just one day find true Advaita > and > Sri Ramana.> > Namaste> RaphI hope so, Raph... sometimes it seems people get stuck in a trap of affirm and re-affirming "there is no me" on a conceptual basis, as if they just repeated it often enough they could realize the Self. As we both know, it doesn't work that way ;-). Thanks for your comments...Namaste,Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Hi Raph, > > , " Raph " <beingnothing00@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Friends > > > > Tim is just making a point on a list whose very purpose is to > > communicate points. > > > > Personally, I sensed no anger in Tim's points. But even if there > > was, let us take each point on it's own merits rather than comment > > on " each other's " psychological state of mind when making a point. > > You're right, there was no anger when I posted the original posting, > although sometimes I can be pretty direct with what I say, and people > can misinterpret that at times. > > Era said she heard me talking about something that sounded neo- > advaitic to her; I don't watch my speech to make sure I > sound " advaitic " rather than " neo-advaitic " , but instead speak from > whatever sense of clarity happens to be here. So it could have been > a mis-interpretation, or maybe I did say something that sounded neo- > advaitic. " There is no ego " is true ultimately, but the point is > that such a statement isn't a teaching, but can only be expressed > authentically if there's a direct apperception of no ego being there. > > > Actually, I agree with what Tim has said. Add to that there is very > > little talk or understanding of compassion in the neo-Advaita or > > Tony Parson position. I have also read quotes form Tony where he > > inaccurately describes Advaita as saying there is a " seeker " who > > gets " enlightened " . > > > > But yes, naturally, some people, if they are not altogether > > captivated by the seemingly instant and easy allure of this " no > > process " TP / neo position, might just one day find true Advaita > > and > > Sri Ramana. > > > > Namaste > > Raph > > I hope so, Raph... sometimes it seems people get stuck in a trap of > affirm and re-affirming " there is no me " on a conceptual basis, as if > they just repeated it often enough they could realize the Self. As > we both know, it doesn't work that way ;-). Thanks for your > comments... > > Namaste, > > Tim > " those who know, do not speak; those who speak - do not know " (tao te ching) the above applies without doubt to all supposed neo + advaita teachers. they simply follow the law of demand and supply - one has to make a living, no? advaita cannot be taught. it is a whole and complete way of life. it can be learned, though. it can be realized by following consistently the teachings of non-duality, and eventually adopting fully the non-dual attitude. but this, too, is an act of grace. beloved ramana taught directly by his presence alone. his " teachings " were just byproducts, spontaneous acts of boundless compassion. yosy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > None of the teachers have awakened, inspite of their claims, as the vasanas are still in full flood. > Dear Alan, greetings: I agree with your posting in general, but there is one point where I would like to play the Devil's advocate... and so in a few questions: Who are the Neo-advaita teachers that claim that they are awakened? and in which way they claim it? could you reference this info? Could you expand on the thought that their vasanas are still full flood, with some examples? Advaitins or neo-advaitins, or christian, jewish, buddhists, muslims, you name it! we are also not free from the delusory grasp of 'my opinion' (someone define opinion as a half way between The Truth and a Lie). Enquiry on our assumptions about others is part of our job, would you agree?. I really respect your postings and I thought that I would ask you to expand a little bit on your statements. Thanks in advance, Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Hi Yosy, , " yosyx " <yosyflug wrote: > > > " those who know, do not speak; > those who speak - do not know " > (tao te ching) > > the above applies without doubt to > all supposed neo + advaita teachers. > > they simply follow the law of demand and > supply - one has to make a living, no? > > advaita cannot be taught. it is a whole and > complete way of life. it can be learned, though. > it can be realized by following consistently > the teachings of non-duality, and eventually > adopting fully the non-dual attitude. > but this, too, is an act of grace. > > beloved ramana taught directly by his presence alone. > his " teachings " were just byproducts, spontaneous > acts of boundless compassion. > > yosy Thanks for noting that - and I think it's worth mentioning that Sri Ramana taught to *ask* " Who am I? " - not to tell oneself who one is, e.g. " there is no me " . From here, the latter method can only add on a belief that one is nonexistent, on top of the already existing belief that one does exist. One has to question their existence as ego, not assert that they don't exist. Sri Ramana taught the correct and perfect technique (the only other I believe works is to stay with beingness, just BE ala Nisargadatta), while neo-advaita seems to sell books more than anything else. Namaste, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Dear Mouna, I am reluctant to name names- as once one gets into that field, my experience is that it leads to disputation and unpleasantness, one can be quoted and it leads to recrimination.However, my experience is that for quite a few years we naively hosted, through the Ramana Foundation in London , most of the leading Neo Advaita teachers on the international circuit, including those resident in the UK. It was a matter of personal observation that money, sometimes sex, criticism of Ramana, the need for luxury and other tendencies were in evidence. Our Foundation eventually saw through this 'falacious' teaching and stopped entertaining them some years back. Robert Adams, however, a real Jnani in my view, as I felt the palpable presence of love and silence as well as truth in his presence, said he never criticised other Teachers as they all had their place, in a way they were stepping stones for beginners, who might move on. I have heard it said that Nisagadatta once said " we need bad gurus to keep the bad people away from good gurus " . It seems inevitable that the West with its tendency to want instant enlightenment without paying the price has customised the teaching to suit this desire. All love in Bhagavan, Alan --- On Sun, 8/6/08, upadesa <maunna wrote: upadesa <maunna Re: Short analysis of " neo-advaita " ... Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 8:12 PM Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > None of the teachers have awakened, inspite of their claims, as the vasanas are still in full flood. > Dear Alan, greetings: I agree with your posting in general, but there is one point where I would like to play the Devil's advocate... and so in a few questions: Who are the Neo-advaita teachers that claim that they are awakened? and in which way they claim it? could you reference this info? Could you expand on the thought that their vasanas are still full flood, with some examples? Advaitins or neo-advaitins, or christian, jewish, buddhists, muslims, you name it! we are also not free from the delusory grasp of 'my opinion' (someone define opinion as a half way between The Truth and a Lie). Enquiry on our assumptions about others is part of our job, would you agree?. I really respect your postings and I thought that I would ask you to expand a little bit on your statements. Thanks in advance, Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear Mouna, I also see what I suspect are some of these same teachers coming to Tiruvannamalai during the winter, to take advantage of all the Ramana followers that come here during that time. As I have talked to a number of these seekers, they have no embodied teacher are are searching for something and have what seems like a deep hunger. They are drawn to Ramana. I am not sure how many practice. Certainly some do. In the US I also knew many such people. To me it seemed like many were looking for a guru who would 'give them something.' Many did not seem to be attracted to on who emphasized practice, something that the seeker himself actually needed to do. Om Arunachala, Richard , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Mouna, > > I am reluctant to name names- as once one gets into that field, my experience is that it leads to disputation and unpleasantness, one can be quoted and it leads to recrimination.However, my experience is that for quite a few years we naively hosted, through the Ramana Foundation in London , most of the leading Neo Advaita teachers on the international circuit, including those resident in the UK. It was a matter of personal observation that money, sometimes sex, criticism of Ramana, the need for luxury and other tendencies were in evidence. Our Foundation eventually saw through this 'falacious' teaching and stopped entertaining them some years back. > > Robert Adams, however, a real Jnani in my view, as I felt the palpable presence of love and silence as well as truth in his presence, said he never criticised other Teachers as they all had their place, in a way they were stepping stones for beginners, who might move on. I have heard it said that Nisagadatta once said " we need bad gurus to keep the bad people away from good gurus " . It seems inevitable that the West with its tendency to want instant enlightenment without paying the price has customised the teaching to suit this desire. > > > All love in Bhagavan, > > Alan > > --- On Sun, 8/6/08, upadesa <maunna wrote: > > upadesa <maunna > Re: Short analysis of " neo-advaita " ... > > Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 8:12 PM Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > None of the teachers have awakened, inspite of their claims, as the > vasanas are still in full flood. > > > > Dear Alan, greetings: > I agree with your posting in general, but there is one point where I > would like to play the Devil's advocate... and so in a few questions: > > Who are the Neo-advaita teachers that claim that they are awakened? > and in which way they claim it? could you reference this info? > > Could you expand on the thought that their vasanas are still full > flood, with some examples? > > Advaitins or neo-advaitins, or christian, jewish, buddhists, muslims, > you name it! we are also not free from the delusory grasp of 'my > opinion' (someone define opinion as a half way between The Truth and a > Lie). Enquiry on our assumptions about others is part of our job, > would you agree?. > > I really respect your postings and I thought that I would ask you to > expand a little bit on your statements. > > Thanks in advance, > Yours in Bhagavan, > Mouna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear Josy, I want to comment on your post. You say: advaita cannot be taught. it is a whole and complete way of life. it can be learned, though. it can be realized by following consistently the teachings of non-duality, and eventually adopting fully the non-dual attitude. but this, too, is an act of grace. As I read this, it seems like a criticism of teachers. Maybe I am just reading something into it that is not there. For myself, I have found that, though the seeker must look within, having a teacher, in a body, who instructs in where and how to look can be wonderful. It may be that you have not had the grace of a teacher in a body in this life. Maybe you did not need one. For most people, I think, a teacher is of great importance. Certainly Ramana is that teacher for many of us. There have been many teachers for thousands of years in many different places, who taught with both words and silence (depending I suspect on whom he was `instructing'). Some of these `teachings' have been recorded. Many, I think, have not been. I have benefited greatly from having a teacher who seemed to be in the body. Before this I had read eastern books (mainly Zen, especially Chan Buddhist), and tried to approach what I thought was the teaching by myself, within myself. Now I see that I had `ego' as a teacher, and so was not able to reach beyond ego, was not able to reach beyond the same concepts that were in fact the limitation. Finding a teacher changed this. When I first heard him talk I knew it was the truth. I did not know what much of it meant, but I knew it was the truth. Listening to the teacher talk again and again, meditating with him, having depth of meditation with the teacher that then extended to practice and life, etc. was my experience. For this I am more grateful than I can say. The teacher reveals the Self as your very own nature, the only nature that you have. The teacher `invites' you to look within to see directly the truth that you are. Ramana said that the teacher pushes from without and pulls from within. It is said in this group and many other places that there are `so-called teachers' that take advantage of unwary seekers. I am sure this is so. There are also those teachers who stand directly as That, exemplified by Sri Ramana, and show the seeker who they, themselves, actually are. I think each of us knows what is true, and can use this knowledge to discern and discriminate what we hear from a teacher. (I would say that if a teacher makes any appeal to the ego, then one should be cautious.) I have also heard things like, " When you are ready, your guru will come. " and " You find the teacher that you need at the time. " Maybe these are true, I don't know. I do know that for me, finding a teacher was great grace, and that I was able to take the teachings and the example presented by the teacher, and look deeply within myself to see what is true. This seemed to change my thoughts, activities, and how I choose to live. I feel it is changing my own knowledge of who I am. So I say, " Thank you to all the teachers, wherever and whenever you are. Thank you for showing us the truth about our own existence. This is the highest grace, the highest blessing. Thank you. " One other comment, you talk about, `adopting fully the non-dual attitude' as if this were some kind of action or thought. This happens, but as a natural result of atma vidya - Self knowledge. Until then it is `just' a mental product, a thought – but I think an important one for a seeker since it can help direct the focus within. The Gita says that action does not lead to liberation, only knowledge – Self knowledge. Yes, nonduality is something that the seeker must find for himself within himself. This is the atma vidya, Self-knowledge, that is spoken of the by sages. What the seeker finds is that he or she IS that which was sought. This way nonduality is more than a mere `way of life,' it is existence as Existence itself. Maybe we are not talking about anything different. Certainly, at the deepest, we cannot be. Maybe it is just language getting in the way of what is deeper than words or thoughts. May you stand in That as That itself. Om Arunachala, Richard , " yosyx " <yosyflug wrote: > > > Tim > > > " those who know, do not speak; > those who speak - do not know " > (tao te ching) > > the above applies without doubt to > all supposed neo + advaita teachers. > > they simply follow the law of demand and > supply - one has to make a living, no? > > advaita cannot be taught. it is a whole and > complete way of life. it can be learned, though. > it can be realized by following consistently > the teachings of non-duality, and eventually > adopting fully the non-dual attitude. > but this, too, is an act of grace. > > beloved ramana taught directly by his presence alone. > his " teachings " were just byproducts, spontaneous > acts of boundless compassion. > > yosy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 hare krishna, namaskarams.[Richard Clarke <richard wrote: I have also heard things like, "When you are ready, your guru will come." and "You find the teacher that you need at the time." Maybe these are true, I don't know. Yes, nonduality is something that the seeker must find for himself within himself. This is the atma vidya, Self-knowledge, that is spoken of the by sages. What the seeker finds is that he or she IS that which was sought. This way nonduality is more than a mere `way of life,' it is existence as Existence itself. Maybe it is just language getting in the way of what is deeper than words or thoughts. ]it is true the guru comes not in literal sense but you are lead to him .it is not as if the guru comes to your doorstep and announces himself.i was lead through a book of swami dayanada saraswathy that made me seek for and lead to swami paramarthananda my guru.still a guru can only show you the path but one gets self knowledge only by his own efforts by treading the path as advised by his guru and discover the truth himself.self knowledge : swami dayanada saraswathy said in a lecture: It is an unveiling process- unfolding the darshan of the lord like the sculptor chipping away the unwanted pieces-all the time seeing the lord inside-removing all desires, ahankara etc, to reveal yourself- your atma -the lord always already there inside- the darshan of your own true nature- the self. baskaranBASKARAN.C.S Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear friend Alan thank you so much for your wonderful straight forward answer to mouna. All what you say is to the point authentic in my way of feeling.... And your comments on Robert Adams and Nisagadatta: these too i feel as just IT. At the moment i do not remember the english translation of the german word STIMMIG - all what you share with is STIMMIG a joy to be in your company in His GRACE michael - Alan Jacobs Sunday, June 08, 2008 10:54 PM Re: Re: Short analysis of "neo-advaita"... Dear Mouna,I am reluctant to name names- as once one gets into that field, my experience is that it leads to disputation and unpleasantness, one can be quoted and it leads to recrimination.However, my experience is that for quite a few years we naively hosted, through the Ramana Foundation in London , most of the leading Neo Advaita teachers on the international circuit, including those resident in the UK. It was a matter of personal observation that money, sometimes sex, criticism of Ramana, the need for luxury and other tendencies were in evidence. Our Foundation eventually saw through this 'falacious' teaching and stopped entertaining them some years back.Robert Adams, however, a real Jnani in my view, as I felt the palpable presence of love and silence as well as truth in his presence, said he never criticised other Teachers as they all had their place, in a way they were stepping stones for beginners, who might move on. I have heard it said that Nisagadatta once said "we need bad gurus to keep the bad people away from good gurus". It seems inevitable that the West with its tendency to want instant enlightenment without paying the price has customised the teaching to suit this desire.All love in Bhagavan,Alan --- On Sun, 8/6/08, upadesa <maunna > wrote:upadesa <maunna > Re: Short analysis of "neo-advaita"... Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 8:12 PMAlan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:> None of the teachers have awakened, inspite of their claims, as thevasanas are still in full flood.> Dear Alan, greetings:I agree with your posting in general, but there is one point where Iwould like to play the Devil's advocate... and so in a few questions:Who are the Neo-advaita teachers that claim that they are awakened? and in which way they claim it? could you reference this info?Could you expand on the thought that their vasanas are still fullflood, with some examples? Advaitins or neo-advaitins, or christian, jewish, buddhists, muslims,you name it! we are also not free from the delusory grasp of 'myopinion' (someone define opinion as a half way between The Truth and aLie). Enquiry on our assumptions about others is part of our job,would you agree?.I really respect your postings and I thought that I would ask you toexpand a little bit on your statements.Thanks in advance,Yours in Bhagavan,Mouna Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release 07/06/2008 11.17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > I am reluctant to name names- as once one gets into that field, my experience is that it leads to disputation and unpleasantness, one can be quoted and it leads to recrimination. > > Robert Adams, however, a real Jnani in my view, as I felt the palpable presence of love and silence as well as truth in his presence, said he never criticised other Teachers as they all had their place, in a way they were stepping stones for beginners, who might move on. I have heard it said that Nisagadatta once said " we need bad gurus to keep the bad people away from good gurus " . It seems inevitable that the West with its tendency to want instant enlightenment without paying the price has customised the teaching to suit this desire. > Dear Alan, greetings: More than an answer, what pervades through your response is a way of perceiving, feeling and thinking, that seems to come directly from an experiential living of Bhagavan's teachings, undoubtely. Thanks for the words, and let me bow again to that Source we share. Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear Michael, Thank you. It is indeed good that you are back with us, after a short break. All love and best wishes, in His Grace, Alan --- On Mon, 9/6/08, Michael Bindel <michael.bindel wrote: Michael Bindel <michael.bindel Re: Re: Short analysis of " neo-advaita " ... Monday, 9 June, 2008, 7:00 AM Dear friend Alan thank you so much for your wonderful straight forward answer to mouna. All what you say is to the point authentic in my way of feeling.... And your comments on Robert Adams and Nisagadatta: these too i feel as just IT. At the moment i do not remember the english translation of the german word STIMMIG - all what you share with is STIMMIG a joy to be in your company in His GRACE michael - Alan Jacobs Sunday, June 08, 2008 10:54 PM Re: Re: Short analysis of " neo-advaita " .... Dear Mouna, I am reluctant to name names- as once one gets into that field, my experience is that it leads to disputation and unpleasantness, one can be quoted and it leads to recrimination. However, my experience is that for quite a few years we naively hosted, through the Ramana Foundation in London , most of the leading Neo Advaita teachers on the international circuit, including those resident in the UK. It was a matter of personal observation that money, sometimes sex, criticism of Ramana, the need for luxury and other tendencies were in evidence. Our Foundation eventually saw through this 'falacious' teaching and stopped entertaining them some years back. Robert Adams, however, a real Jnani in my view, as I felt the palpable presence of love and silence as well as truth in his presence, said he never criticised other Teachers as they all had their place, in a way they were stepping stones for beginners, who might move on. I have heard it said that Nisagadatta once said " we need bad gurus to keep the bad people away from good gurus " . It seems inevitable that the West with its tendency to want instant enlightenment without paying the price has customised the teaching to suit this desire. All love in Bhagavan, Alan --- On Sun, 8/6/08, upadesa <maunna (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: upadesa <maunna (AT) gmail (DOT) com> Re: Short analysis of " neo-advaita " ... Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 8:12 PM Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > None of the teachers have awakened, inspite of their claims, as the vasanas are still in full flood. > Dear Alan, greetings: I agree with your posting in general, but there is one point where I would like to play the Devil's advocate... and so in a few questions: Who are the Neo-advaita teachers that claim that they are awakened? and in which way they claim it? could you reference this info? Could you expand on the thought that their vasanas are still full flood, with some examples? Advaitins or neo-advaitins, or christian, jewish, buddhists, muslims, you name it! we are also not free from the delusory grasp of 'my opinion' (someone define opinion as a half way between The Truth and a Lie). Enquiry on our assumptions about others is part of our job, would you agree?. I really respect your postings and I thought that I would ask you to expand a little bit on your statements. Thanks in advance, Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release 07/06/2008 11.17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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