RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG CELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24

[Guest guest]

, Alan Jacobs

<alanadamsjacobs wrote:

>

> Bhagavan's selection of the most important 42 verses in the

Bhagavad Gita, from 700, arranged in order, for our spiritual

guidance. See his Collected Works.

>

> 24

>

> " As a well lit fire consumes its fuel, Arjuna, so does the fire of

knowledge reduce all activity to ashes. "

>

> Comment. The fire of Jnana reduces unnecessary and unwanted

activity to ashes. In a more subtle way- on the path of renunciation-

all activity is reduced to the bare minimum necessary for sadhana and

the maintenance of life.So called interest in the 'drama of the

world' becomes of little importance, except to see how God

governs.Bhagavan himself was a living example of this verse.

 

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

i respectfully disagree with the above comment.

(btw, bhagavan himself was/is living embodiment of

the whole gita...)

 

 

kris'na says (quoting from memory, but certainly

someone can find and provide the accurate verse):

" even i engage in action. otherwise people would

follow my example and the worlds would plummet into

chaos... " , warning arjuna not to abandon action as

such. so what is meant here by " action " is not the

apparent activity of the body and mind in itself.

the sadhana of the seeker, and the increase of

jnana/knowlege, loosen the habitual mistaken notion

" i am the doer " , and teaches the sahaka to abandon

the mistaken identifying of the self with nama/rupa,

in whatever form. activity preformed by the body/mind

and senses alone, wihout any attachment, does not

affect in the slightest the " i-i " , the true self...

the fire of knowledge reduces to ashes any idea of

self-centered activity, thus the attachment to actions

and their results.

so who/what is the actor?

 

_()_

yosy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

members are invited to participate in this study group by posting

comments or by asking questions, for other members to answer.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Yosyx,

 

While respecting your point of view , with which I do not disagree, what I

actually wrote was that Bhagavan was the embodiment of this VERSE not as you put

it the whole GITA. Is that what you meant? If you meant he is also the

embodiment of the whole GITA I agree.

 

All regards,

 

Alan

 

--- On Thu, 18/9/08, yosyx <yosyflug wrote:

 

yosyx <yosyflug

Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG CELESTIAL

STUDY GROUP / 24

 

Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 9:44 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

, Alan Jacobs

<alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:

>

> Bhagavan's selection of the most important 42 verses in the

Bhagavad Gita, from 700, arranged in order, for our spiritual

guidance. See his Collected Works.

>

> 24

>

> " As a well lit fire consumes its fuel, Arjuna, so does the fire of

knowledge reduce all activity to ashes. "

>

> Comment. The fire of Jnana reduces unnecessary and unwanted

activity to ashes. In a more subtle way- on the path of renunciation-

all activity is reduced to the bare minimum necessary for sadhana and

the maintenance of life.So called interest in the 'drama of the

world' becomes of little importance, except to see how God

governs.Bhagavan himself was a living example of this verse.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^

i respectfully disagree with the above comment.

(btw, bhagavan himself was/is living embodiment of

the whole gita...)

 

kris'na says (quoting from memory, but certainly

someone can find and provide the accurate verse):

" even i engage in action. otherwise people would

follow my example and the worlds would plummet into

chaos... " , warning arjuna not to abandon action as

such. so what is meant here by " action " is not the

apparent activity of the body and mind in itself.

the sadhana of the seeker, and the increase of

jnana/knowlege, loosen the habitual mistaken notion

" i am the doer " , and teaches the sahaka to abandon

the mistaken identifying of the self with nama/rupa,

in whatever form. activity preformed by the body/mind

and senses alone, wihout any attachment, does not

affect in the slightest the " i-i " , the true self...

the fire of knowledge reduces to ashes any idea of

self-centered activity, thus the attachment to actions

and their results.

so who/what is the actor?

 

_()_

yosy

^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^

 

members are invited to participate in this study group by posting

comments or by asking questions, for other members to answer.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Yosyx,

 

Reading your latest posting you say that 'Bhagavan was/is the living embodiment of the whole Gita ', yes, of course I agree with that as well as verse No.24 on which I commented.

 

All regards,

 

Alan .--- On Thu, 18/9/08, yosyx <yosyflug wrote:

yosyx <yosyflug Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG CELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24 Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 9:44 AM

 

 

, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:>> Bhagavan's selection of the most important 42 verses in the Bhagavad Gita, from 700, arranged in order, for our spiritual guidance. See his Collected Works.> > 24> > "As a well lit fire consumes its fuel, Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge reduce all activity to ashes."> > Comment. The fire of Jnana reduces unnecessary and unwanted activity to ashes. In a more subtle way- on the path of renunciation- all activity is reduced to the bare minimum necessary for sadhana and the maintenance of life.So called interest in the 'drama of the world' becomes of little importance, except to see how God governs.Bhagavan himself was a living example of this verse.^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^ i respectfully disagree with the above comment. (btw, bhagavan himself was/is living embodiment of the whole gita...)kris'na says (quoting from memory, but certainly someone can find and provide the accurate verse): "even i engage in action. otherwise people would follow my example and the worlds would plummet into chaos...", warning arjuna not to abandon action as such. so what is meant here by "action" is not the apparent activity of the body and mind in itself. the sadhana of the seeker, and the increase of jnana/knowlege, loosen the habitual mistaken notion "i am the doer", and teaches the sahaka to abandon the mistaken identifying of the self with nama/rupa, in whatever form. activity preformed by the body/mind and senses alone, wihout any attachment, does not affect in the slightest the "i-i", the true self... the fire of knowledge reduces to ashes any idea of

self-centered activity, thus the attachment to actions and their results. so who/what is the actor?_()_yosy^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^members are invited to participate in this study group by posting comments or by asking questions, for other members to answer.>

[Guest guest]

Dear Alan,

 

If I have understood Yosyx correctly I think the slight disagreement is over

the issue of abandoning or minimising action. Hence Yosyx referred to Gita

chapter 3 where Krisha emphazises abandonement of the fruits of action,

rather than of action itself. Krishna says:

 

" I have, O Partha, no duty; there is nothing in the three worlds that I have

not gained and nothing that I have to gain. Yet I continue to work. " [iii:

23]

 

" For should I not engage, unwearied, in action men would in every way follow

in my wake. " [iii: 24]

 

" If I should cease to work, these worlds would perish: I should cause he

mixture of castes and destroy all creatures. " [iii: 24]

 

" As the ignorant act, attached to their work, O Bharata, so should an

enlightened man act, but without attachment, in order that he may set people

on the right path. " [iii: 25]

 

Chapter 3 is about the Yoga of Action (Karma) while Chapter 4 is about the

Yoga of Knowledge (Jnana). Hence the passage you qouted, from Chapter 4

states:

 

" As a well lit fire consumes its fuel, Arjuna, so does the fire of

knowledge reduce all actions to ashes. " [iv:37]

 

Sankara, in his commentary explains that destroying " actions " or " works "

refers to negating the sense of doership and accumulated karma that does

along with that. Jnana, the fire of knowledge, destroys both sancita karma

(accumulated karma from previous lives not yet manifested in this one) and

agami karma (karma accumulated in this life before enlightenment).

 

Prarabdha karma (karma already set in motion in this life) remains even for

the jnani - at least this is how it appears to the unenlightened (ajnanis).

 

Best wishes,

 

Peter

 

________________________________

 

On Behalf Of Alan Jacobs

18 September 2008 10:27

 

Re: Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG

CELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24

 

 

 

Dear Yosyx,

 

Reading your latest posting you say that 'Bhagavan was/is the living

embodiment of the whole Gita ', yes, of course I agree with that as well as

verse No.24 on which I commented.

 

All regards,

 

Alan .

 

--- On Thu, 18/9/08, yosyx <yosyflug wrote:

 

 

yosyx <yosyflug

Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG

CELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24

Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 9:44 AM

 

 

<%40> , Alan Jacobs

<alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:

>

> Bhagavan's selection of the most important 42 verses in the

Bhagavad Gita, from 700, arranged in order, for our spiritual

guidance. See his Collected Works.

>

> 24

>

> " As a well lit fire consumes its fuel, Arjuna, so does the fire of

 

knowledge reduce all activity to ashes. "

>

> Comment. The fire of Jnana reduces unnecessary and unwanted

activity to ashes. In a more subtle way- on the path of

renunciation-

all activity is reduced to the bare minimum necessary for sadhana

and

the maintenance of life.So called interest in the 'drama of the

world' becomes of little importance, except to see how God

governs.Bhagavan himself was a living example of this verse.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^

i respectfully disagree with the above comment.

(btw, bhagavan himself was/is living embodiment of

the whole gita...)

 

kris'na says (quoting from memory, but certainly

someone can find and provide the accurate verse):

" even i engage in action. otherwise people would

follow my example and the worlds would plummet into

chaos... " , warning arjuna not to abandon action as

such. so what is meant here by " action " is not the

apparent activity of the body and mind in itself.

the sadhana of the seeker, and the increase of

jnana/knowlege, loosen the habitual mistaken notion

" i am the doer " , and teaches the sahaka to abandon

the mistaken identifying of the self with nama/rupa,

in whatever form. activity preformed by the body/mind

and senses alone, wihout any attachment, does not

affect in the slightest the " i-i " , the true self...

the fire of knowledge reduces to ashes any idea of

self-centered activity, thus the attachment to actions

and their results.

so who/what is the actor?

 

_()_

yosy

^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^

 

members are invited to participate in this study group by posting

comments or by asking questions, for other members to answer.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Peter,

 

Thanks for this clarification which need study.

I certainly agree that the Gita stresses the need for the abandonment of the fruits of any action which are probably minimal in the case of the Jnani and the advanced sadhak. Perhaps abandonment of fruits and minimising action can be reconciled by relinquishing the sense of personal doership?

 

All best wishes and warm regards,

 

Alan , --- On Thu, 18/9/08, Peter <not_2 wrote:

Peter <not_2RE: Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG CELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24 Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 2:37 PM

 

 

Dear Alan,If I have understood Yosyx correctly I think the slight disagreement is overthe issue of abandoning or minimising action. Hence Yosyx referred to Gitachapter 3 where Krisha emphazises abandonement of the fruits of action,rather than of action itself. Krishna says:"I have, O Partha, no duty; there is nothing in the three worlds that I havenot gained and nothing that I have to gain. Yet I continue to work." [iii:23]"For should I not engage, unwearied, in action men would in every way followin my wake." [iii: 24]"If I should cease to work, these worlds would perish: I should cause hemixture of castes and destroy all creatures." [iii: 24]"As the ignorant act, attached to their work, O Bharata, so should anenlightened man act, but without attachment, in order that he may set peopleon the right path." [iii: 25]Chapter 3 is about the Yoga of Action (Karma) while

Chapter 4 is about theYoga of Knowledge (Jnana). Hence the passage you qouted, from Chapter 4states:"As a well lit fire consumes its fuel, Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge reduce all actions to ashes." [iv:37]Sankara, in his commentary explains that destroying "actions" or "works"refers to negating the sense of doership and accumulated karma that doesalong with that. Jnana, the fire of knowledge, destroys both sancita karma(accumulated karma from previous lives not yet manifested in this one) andagami karma (karma accumulated in this life before enlightenment) .Prarabdha karma (karma already set in motion in this life) remains even forthe jnani - at least this is how it appears to the unenlightened (ajnanis).Best wishes,Peter____________ _________ _________ __@

. com []On Behalf Of Alan Jacobs18 September 2008 10:27Re: Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONGCELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24Dear Yosyx,Reading your latest posting you say that 'Bhagavan was/is the livingembodiment of the whole Gita ', yes, of course I agree with that as well asverse No.24 on which I commented.All regards,Alan .--- On Thu, 18/9/08, yosyx <yosyflug (AT) isdn (DOT) net.il> wrote:yosyx <yosyflug (AT) isdn (DOT) net.il>[ -

Ramana Guru] Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONGCELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 9:44 AM<HarshaSatsa ngh%40 s.com> , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:>> Bhagavan's selection of the most important 42 verses in the Bhagavad Gita, from 700, arranged in order, for our spiritual guidance. See his Collected Works.> > 24> > "As a well lit fire consumes its fuel, Arjuna, so does the fire ofknowledge reduce all activity to ashes."> > Comment. The fire of Jnana reduces unnecessary and unwanted activity to ashes. In a more subtle way- on the path ofrenunciation- all activity is reduced to the bare minimum necessary for sadhanaand the

maintenance of life.So called interest in the 'drama of the world' becomes of little importance, except to see how God governs.Bhagavan himself was a living example of this verse.^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ i respectfully disagree with the above comment. (btw, bhagavan himself was/is living embodiment of the whole gita...)kris'na says (quoting from memory, but certainly someone can find and provide the accurate verse): "even i engage in action. otherwise people would follow my example and the worlds would plummet into chaos...", warning arjuna not to abandon action as such. so what is meant here by "action" is not the apparent activity of the body and mind in itself. the sadhana of the seeker, and the increase of jnana/knowlege, loosen the habitual mistaken notion "i am the doer", and teaches the sahaka to abandon the mistaken identifying of the self with nama/rupa, in

whatever form. activity preformed by the body/mind and senses alone, wihout any attachment, does not affect in the slightest the "i-i", the true self... the fire of knowledge reduces to ashes any idea of self-centered activity, thus the attachment to actions and their results. so who/what is the actor?_()_yosy^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^members are invited to participate in this study group by posting comments or by asking questions, for other members to answer.>

[Guest guest]

" yosyx " <yosyflug wrote:

 

.... and teaches the sahaka to abandon

> the mistaken identifying of the self with nama/rupa,

> in whatever form. activity preformed by the body/mind

> and senses alone, wihout any attachment, does not

> affect in the slightest the " i-i " , the true self...

 

Dear All,

 

I just wanted to point out that Ego (Ahamkara) is NOT ONLY the sense

of doership, but ALSO, the sense of incompleteness. So, every " action "

generated from Ego will have this sense of incompleteness also, the

necessity to " acquire " the fulfillment that Ego will never have since

is apparent or illusory in nature.

That's why the sense of doership will NEVER be lost on actions that

involve Ego, for ex.: I want to rob my neighbor his bicycle because I

don't have money to buy one.

In Yosyx statement: " whatever form activity performed " there is this

misunderstanding, or let's put it this way, incomplete understanding.

 

As Alan pointed out, the fire of Knowledge will start dissolving, not

only the " sense of doership " but also will start revealing the

fullfillment of Ananda, and THAT, will transform EVEN the actions we

perform. We won't be prone anymore to perform actions that are in

egoic behavior, since we will be connected to the fullfillment that

the Whole gives.

 

In many advaitic circles today, there is this notion that even Ego is

OK because is part of the Absolute, so we can perform any kind of

action regardless its consequences since " we know " that every action

is within the Self... Another trick of Ego to justify its sense of

unfulfillment and... doership!!

 

Krishna acts, as Peter pointed out, to the eyes of the ignorant. But

his actions are ALWAYS Dharmic, since they are born from the Absolute

Understanding. As for the Absolute/Self/Brahman, there is no action

" there " whatsoever...

 

 

Yours in Bhagavan

[Guest guest]

Dear Mouna,

 

Thanks for this clarification of a question demanding subtle intellectual discrimination.

 

I note you say in certain 'Advaitic Circles'. I prefer to call these 'Neo Advaita Circles 'so as we are not confused with the real teaching.

 

All warmest regards,

 

Alan --- On Thu, 18/9/08, upadesa <maunna wrote:

upadesa <maunna Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG CELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24 Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 7:07 PM

 

 

"yosyx" <yosyflug (AT) isdn (DOT) net.il> wrote:... and teaches the sahaka to abandon > the mistaken identifying of the self with nama/rupa, > in whatever form. activity preformed by the body/mind > and senses alone, wihout any attachment, does not > affect in the slightest the "i-i", the true self...Dear All,I just wanted to point out that Ego (Ahamkara) is NOT ONLY the senseof doership, but ALSO, the sense of incompleteness. So, every "action"generated from Ego will have this sense of incompleteness also, thenecessity to "acquire" the fulfillment that Ego will never have sinceis apparent or illusory in nature.That's why the sense of doership will NEVER be lost on actions thatinvolve Ego, for ex.: I want to rob my neighbor his bicycle because Idon't have money to buy one.In Yosyx statement: "whatever

form activity performed" there is thismisunderstanding, or let's put it this way, incomplete understanding.As Alan pointed out, the fire of Knowledge will start dissolving, notonly the "sense of doership" but also will start revealing thefullfillment of Ananda, and THAT, will transform EVEN the actions weperform. We won't be prone anymore to perform actions that are inegoic behavior, since we will be connected to the fullfillment thatthe Whole gives.In many advaitic circles today, there is this notion that even Ego isOK because is part of the Absolute, so we can perform any kind ofaction regardless its consequences since "we know" that every actionis within the Self... Another trick of Ego to justify its sense ofunfulfillment and... doership!!Krishna acts, as Peter pointed out, to the eyes of the ignorant. Buthis actions are ALWAYS Dharmic, since they are born from the

AbsoluteUnderstanding. As for the Absolute/Self/ Brahman, there is no action"there" whatsoever.. .Yours in Bhagavan

[Guest guest]

Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote:

>

> I note you say in certain 'Advaitic Circles'. I prefer to call these

'Neo Advaita Circles'so as we are not confused with the real teaching.

 

Dear Alan friend,

 

Thank you for your comment.

I will from now on take this clasification that you propose. Although

not still completely satysfaying for me, I can see that there is no

better one around.

 

Please read " Neo Advaita Circles " instead of Advaitic Circles in my

last post.

 

 

Yours in All,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Dear Mouna,

 

Some folk use the term Pseudo-Advaitic Circles, see the web. Does that suit better?

 

All love Alan --- On Thu, 18/9/08, upadesa <maunna wrote:

upadesa <maunna Re: RAMANA MAHARSHI'S SONG CELESTIAL STUDY GROUP / 24 Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 7:22 PM

 

 

Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:>> I note you say in certain 'Advaitic Circles'. I prefer to call these'Neo Advaita Circles'so as we are not confused with the real teaching.Dear Alan friend,Thank you for your comment.I will from now on take this clasification that you propose. Althoughnot still completely satysfaying for me, I can see that there is nobetter one around.Please read "Neo Advaita Circles" instead of Advaitic Circles in mylast post.Yours in All,Mouna

[Guest guest]

, Alan Jacobs

<alanadamsjacobs wrote:

>

> Dear Mouna,

> Some folk use the term Pseudo-Advaitic Circles, see the web. Does

that suit better?

 

Dear Alan,

 

A little better, but believe me, is difficult for me to say... because

as Dennis Waite explained in his book " Enlightenment - The Path

through The Jungle " those recent movements ARE essentially advaitic

(and some are well meant), the problem is the implementation of the

means used to " communicate " and " teach " what is essentially the

advaitic Truth. That is what is lacking.

I used to say Advaita " as teached in the West " but came to the same

conclusion that it's not good also.

But since, for the sake of clarity we have to surrender to a common

denominator, I will follow your suggestion and will start using

Neo-Advaita at the transactional level, at least in this way we all

know what we are talking about.

 

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna