:) pseudo-advaita....

September 18, 2008

dear friends, alan, mouna & all, the talk of

advaita, neoadvaita, etc reminds me an old poem:

In spite of teachers, teachings,

Books and exercises,

Sacred dances,

Rituals,

Chants and sacrifices,

Real spirituality

The path of the heart

Can not be ever taught.

But luckily

Through grace

And in company of friends

It can be

Caught.

BOOM!

yosy

ps....

A true master's

Presence

Even by proxy

Or as a hearsay

Is far more effective

Than most elaborate

Instructions

Expounded endlessly

And repeatedly

By

A fake.

jai jai jai beloved ramana! oh, how lucky we are!

September 18, 2008

" yosyx " <yosyflug wrote:

>

> A true master's

> Presence

> Even by proxy

> Or as a hearsay

> Is far more effective

> Than most elaborate

> Instructions

> Expounded endlessly

> And repeatedly

> By

> A fake.

>

Dear Yosy,

One of the best definitions of Ego = FAKE!!

Thanks for that.

yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

September 18, 2008

Dear Yosyx,

How right you are

Love,

Alan

--- On Thu, 18/9/08, upadesa <maunna wrote:

upadesa <maunna Re: pseudo-advaita.... Date: Thursday, 18 September, 2008, 8:42 PM

"yosyx" <yosyflug@.. .> wrote:>> A true master's > Presence > Even by proxy> Or as a hearsay > Is far more effective> Than most elaborate > Instructions > Expounded endlessly > And repeatedly > By > A fake. > Dear Yosy,One of the best definitions of Ego = FAKE!!Thanks for that.yours in Bhagavan,Mouna

September 18, 2008

Satsangees,

I have put together another perspective on ego instead of beating it to submission or dismissing it as an illusion as newbies into Advaita usually do.

Cheers

-d

Egoless does not mean "less than personal," it means "more than personal." Not personal minus, but personal plus-all the normal personal qualities, plus something Impersonal or rather trans-personal . Ego is the functional vehicle in the realm of manifestation. However, complete identification with ego is narcissist and delusion.

There is certainly a type of truth to the notion of "transcending ego"; it doesn't mean destroy the ego, it means plug it into something vast. As Nagarjuna put it, in the relative world, atman is real; in the absolute, neither atman nor an-atman is real. The small ego does not evaporate; it remains as the functional center of activity in the conventional realm - an obedient vehicle of the Self. To lose that ego is to become a psychotic, not a sage.

Transcending the ego" thus actually means to transcend but include the ego in a deeper and higher embrace with the Witness or primordial Self. And that means we do not "get rid" of the small ego, but rather, we inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle through which Truth is communicated. Brahman or Self includes body, emotions and mind, they do not erase them.

Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Self, but a radiant manifestation of Self. All Forms are not other than Brahman, including the form of the ego. It is not necessary to get rid of the ego, but simply to live it with a certain exuberance. When identification ceases with the ego and into the Self, the ego discovers that the individual atman is in fact one with Brahman.

Within every thought, ego or form that is subject to birth and death, there is the Eternal. The essence of every form is the Eternal Self. Even the essence of a blade of grass is Brahman. And that's why the world of form is sacred. It's not that the realm of the sacred is exclusively 'Sat' or unmanifested Being. Even the world of form is sacred.

--- On Thu, 9/18/08, upadesa <maunna wrote:upadesa <maunna Re: pseudo-advaita.... Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 3:42 PM

"Dear Yosy,One of the best definitions of Ego = FAKE!!Thanks for that.yours in Bhagavan,Mouna

September 18, 2008

, " upadesa " <maunna wrote:

>

> " yosyx " <yosyflug@> wrote:

> >

> > A true master's

> > Presence

> > Even by proxy

> > Or as a hearsay

> > Is far more effective

> > Than most elaborate

> > Instructions

> > Expounded endlessly

> > And repeatedly

> > By

> > A fake.

> >

>

> Dear Yosy,

>

> One of the best definitions of Ego = FAKE!!

>

> Thanks for that.

>

> yours in Bhagavan,

> Mouna

>

Hi Folks,

Yes.

I use the term 'Imposter' because I feel it accurately reflects the

karma-drama associated with mistaken identity.

Blessed be,

James

September 18, 2008

, Dave Sirjue <davesirjue

wrote:

>

> Satsangees,

>

> I have put together another perspective on ego instead of beating

it to submission or dismissing it as an illusion as newbies into

Advaita usually do.

>

> Cheers

> -d

>

> Egoless does not mean " less than personal, " it means " more than

personal. " Not personal minus, but personal plus-all the normal

personal qualities, plus something Impersonal or rather trans-

personal . Ego is the functional vehicle in the realm of

manifestation. However, complete identification with ego

is narcissist and delusion.

>

> There is certainly a type of truth to the notion of " transcending

ego " ; it doesn't mean destroy the ego, it means plug it into

something vast. As Nagarjuna put it, in the relative world, atman is

real; in the absolute, neither atman nor an-atman is real. The small

ego does not evaporate; it remains as the functional center of

activity in the conventional realm - an obedient vehicle of the

Self. To lose that ego is to become a psychotic, not a sage.

>

> Transcending the ego " thus actually means to transcend but include

the ego in a deeper and higher embrace with the Witness or primordial

Self. And that means we do not " get rid " of the small ego, but

rather, we inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the

necessary vehicle through which Truth is communicated. Brahman or

Self includes body, emotions and mind, they do not erase them.

>

> Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Self, but a radiant

manifestation of Self. All Forms are not other than Brahman,

including the form of the ego. It is not necessary to get rid of the

ego, but simply to live it with a certain exuberance. When

identification ceases with the ego and into the Self, the ego

discovers that the individual atman is in fact one with Brahman.

>

> Within every thought, ego or form that is subject to birth and

death, there is the Eternal. The essence of every form is the Eternal

Self. Even the essence of a blade of grass is Brahman. And that's why

the world of form is sacred. It's not that the realm of the sacred is

exclusively 'Sat' or unmanifested Being. Even the world of form is

sacred.

>

> --- On Thu, 9/18/08, upadesa <maunna wrote:

> upadesa <maunna

> Re: pseudo-advaita....

>

> Thursday, September 18, 2008, 3:42 PM

" Dear Yosy,

>

> One of the best definitions of Ego = FAKE!!

>

> Thanks for that.

>

> yours in Bhagavan,

> Mouna

>

Namaste' Dave,

I feel that your words 'The essence of every form is the Eternal

Self. Even the essence of a blade of grass is Brahman. And that's why

the world of form is sacred.' and that this simply means the the ego

is an unnecessary mental creation.

This does not deny your comments regarding function.

Instead of 'killing' the ego (or beating it to submission or

dismissing it as an illusion) which can only be the act of a more

subtle degree of 'ego' what happens is that awareness of your true

nature is what is focused on so that the energy that fuels the

mentally generated 'ego' is no longer available to sustain it - thus

it collapses and yet there is no discontinuity to being nor is there

any cessation of functioning.

As Yosy so clearly stated 'there is no doer'... this does not mean

that there is no doing... it simply means that the Divine animates

the form called 'you' and 'Your will is its will'.. not as a result

of your I-entity as an ego form becoming more spiritual - rather the

absence of any entity whatsoever is the space whereby the Divine acts

as you (it animates your form) and through you (thus what is called

your functioning is improperly labeled because there is no 'you' to

function).

Love,

James

September 19, 2008

Dave Sirjue <davesirjue wrote:

>

> Satsangees,

> I have put together another perspective on ego instead of beating it

to submission or dismissing it as an illusion as newbies into Advaita

usually do.

>

Dave , greetings

I think there is a basic misinterpretation of some of the statements

that have been around in the last postings.

As I understand, Ego or Ahamkara is the reflection of Consciousness in

the Mind (the reflective element) that under Ignorance, identifies

with the body and see it as real, as well as the world. We are not

talking about Mind here.

If you take the word meaning of FAKE, it reads: " something that is a

counterfeit; not what it seems to be " . This also matches the idea of

Mythia in Advaita, what seems to be there but actually is not.

Acording to Advaita Vedanta (at least the one I am studying, and yes,

I am a newbie in that, hoping that I will never loose the beginners'

mind!)) the whole " universe " of name and form, as sacred as it may be,

is simply apparent (including the solid bodies and the virtual bodies

or Egos), seems to be there but it's not.

How can we submit or beat an entity that doesn't have actual existence

except as a false notion in the mind?

I gather, for the sake of clarity, some quotes from the people I am

studying from (mainly Bhagavan Ramana) as statements/response to the

ones you made. To my eyes, Ramana Maharshi was very direct, focused

and very simple in his approach. He didn't psichologised the whole

issue, he went right ot the point. Maybe these quotes will clarify my

point of view better than if I write about it.

After all, it maybe an issue of semantics and/or points of view, more

than difference of opinions.

Regards,

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

................................................

(you wrote)**There is certainly a type of truth to the notion of

" transcending ego " ; it doesn't mean destroy the ego, it means plug it

into something vast.

Ramana M: Whether the nominative case, which is the first case,

appears or not, the sentences in which the other cases appear have as

their basis the first case; similarly, all the thoughts that appear in

the heart have as their basis the egoity which is the first mental

mode " I, " the cognition of the form " I am the body " ; thus, it is the

rise of egoity that is the cause and source of the rise of all other

thoughts; therefore, if the self-conceit of the form of egoity, which

is the root of the illusory tree of samsara (bondage consisting of

transmigration), is destroyed, all other thoughts will perish

completely like an uprooted tree. (Ramana Maharshi, Self-Enquiry,

answer to question 4.)

................................................

** Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Self, but a radiant

manifestation of Self.

Q: If " I " am always here and now, why don't I feel it?

M: That's is the point! Who says that it is not felt? Does the real

" I " say it or the false " I " ? Examine it. You will find it is the wrong

" I. " The wrong " I " is the obstruction. It has to be removed in order

that the true " I " might not be hidden. (Conscious Immortality, Paul

Brunton)

................................................

**To lose that ego is to become a psychotic, not a sage.

For Him who is immersed in the bliss of the Self, arising from the

extinction of the ego, what remains to be accomplished? He is not

aware of anything (as) other than the Self. Who can apprehend his

State? (Ramana Maharshi, Forty verse on Reality, verse 31.)

It comes into being equipped with a form, and as long as it retains a

form it endures. Having a form, it feeds and grows big. But if you

investigate it, this evil spirit, which has no form of its own,

relinquishes its grip on form and takes to flight. (Ramana Maharshi,

Forty verse on Reality, verse 25.)

................................................

**Brahman or Self includes body, emotions and mind, they do not erase

them.

Brahman is not all-inclusive, because he/she/it has no parts that are

included in him, Brahman is all-pervading.

................................................

**And that means we do not " get rid " of the small ego, but rather, we

inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle

through which Truth is communicated.

Bhagavan's Translation of Vivekachudamani of Adi Shankaracharya:

Knowledge of the identity of the self with Brahman is clearly revealed

as soon as the ego is completely destroyed without residue, together

with the illusion of multiplicity caused by the veiling of tamas.

Therefore, by investigation into the nature of the unattached Self,

discover the Truth of your own Self, complete, perfect, self-effulgent

and ever-blissful. He who is freed from the ego shines eternally as

the Self, like the full moon, radiant when delivered from the dragon's

head (of eclipse). In the field of the Heart the terrible cobra of the

ego is coiled round the Bliss of the Self to which it denies access

with the threefold hood of the gunas. These three fearful heads of the

serpent of ego are to be severed, in accordance with the scriptures,

only by great courage with the mighty sword of actual experience of

the Self. He who has thus destroyed the three-hooded serpent can

obtain and enjoy the vast treasure of the Bliss of Brahman. Therefore

you, too, give up the `I-sense' in the ego, which appears like being

and assumes that it is the doer, whereas it is only the reflected

light of the Self. Turn inwards all the thought-forms that adhere to

the ego. He is an enemy of yours, so kill him with the sword of

knowledge. He has been harming you like a thorn in your throat while

eating. Give up all desires in order to realize your state as the

Supreme Self. Enjoy the kingdom of the Self, be perfect, be still in

the stillness of the immutable state of Brahman.

" The ego may in this way be killed, but if thought is given to it even

for a moment it revives and engages in activity, driving a man before

it as the wind drives winter clouds. Remember that he who associates

the `I-sense' with the body and its faculties is bound while he who

does not is liberated.

................................................

**When identification ceases with the ego and into the Self, the ego

discovers that the individual atman is in fact one with Brahman.

Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its

identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish

and reality will shine forth by itself.

-'Be As You Are', The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Edited by David

Godman

September 19, 2008

--- On Thu, 9/18/08, James Traverse <nisarga111 wrote:

James Traverse <nisarga111 Re: pseudo-advaita.... Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 6:45 PM

Namaste James!

Let's proceed along the lines of Jnana and take it in small steps if time permits. As you may well know Mananam is thought, investigation, and discussion which marks the independent thinking mind. First there is shravanam listening to the teacher; then mananam, which is the thinking or understanding, discussion upon, and testing of what is heard as opposed to the mere acceptance on trust of the lower intelligence. These two are followed by nididhyasanam, which is attention and profound contemplation on the conclusions (siddhanta) drawn from what is so heard and reasoned upon.

This is the beauty of Jnana -Direct pointing out- as opposed to other practice based approaches involving prescriptions, meditations and so on .

J. Instead of 'killing' the ego (or beating it to submission or dismissing it as an illusion) which can only be the act of a more subtle degree of 'ego' what happens is that awareness of your true nature is what is focused on so that the energy that fuels the mentally generated 'ego' is no longer available to sustain it - thus it collapses and yet there is no discontinuity to being nor is there any cessation of functioning.

D. Ego can be defined as identification with a particular type of thought . When the ego collapses do all thoughts collapse with it or is it the desire to react to thoughts that ceases ? Can you be conscious without thoughts? Maybe thought falls in its own natural state like the breath and arises when necessary without taking ownership of the thoughts. Maybe thoughts belong to a common thought-sphere which each living organism draws upon depending upon its propensity and survival need. There are three major kinds of thoughts -

Practical thoughts, which are useful in conducting business in our daily functional life.

Contemplative and inspirational thoughts.

Thoughts related to the notion of being a self , reacting to not-self through hopes and fears, clinging and avoidance. Do all of these collapse ?

-d

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September 19, 2008

Greetings Maunna Sahdu!

You apparently read a lot and quote from different authors on the Maharshi, without mistranslations I suppose. From your intuitive understanding what does all this mean to you ? If the Self has awakened then the books have done its job and should be handed over or dispensed with. You regain your natural peaceful self and remain your own authority... not an imitation, carbon copy or second-hand person. To thine own self be true.

Be a light onto yourself.

shanti

-dev sadhu --- On Thu, 9/18/08, upadesa <maunna wrote:

upadesa <maunna Re: pseudo-advaita.... Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 7:43 PM

Dave Sirjue <davesirjue@ ...> wrote:>> Satsangees,> I have put together another perspective on ego instead of beating itto submission or dismissing it as an illusion as newbies into Advaitausually do. > Dave , greetingsI think there is a basic misinterpretation of some of the statementsthat have been around in the last postings.As I understand, Ego or Ahamkara is the reflection of Consciousness inthe Mind (the reflective element) that under Ignorance, identifieswith the body and see it as real, as well as the world. We are nottalking about Mind here.If you take the word meaning of FAKE, it reads:"something that is acounterfeit; not what it seems to be". This also matches the idea ofMythia in Advaita, what seems to be there but actually is not.Acording to Advaita Vedanta (at least the one I am studying, and yes,I am a newbie in that,

hoping that I will never loose the beginners'mind!)) the whole "universe" of name and form, as sacred as it may be,is simply apparent (including the solid bodies and the virtual bodiesor Egos), seems to be there but it's not.How can we submit or beat an entity that doesn't have actual existenceexcept as a false notion in the mind?I gather, for the sake of clarity, some quotes from the people I amstudying from (mainly Bhagavan Ramana) as statements/response to theones you made. To my eyes, Ramana Maharshi was very direct, focusedand very simple in his approach. He didn't psichologised the wholeissue, he went right ot the point. Maybe these quotes will clarify mypoint of view better than if I write about it.After all, it maybe an issue of semantics and/or points of view, morethan difference of opinions. Regards,Yours in Bhagavan,Mouna............ ......... .........

.......... ........(you wrote)**There is certainly a type of truth to the notion of"transcending ego"; it doesn't mean destroy the ego, it means plug itinto something vast.Ramana M: Whether the nominative case, which is the first case,appears or not, the sentences in which the other cases appear have astheir basis the first case; similarly, all the thoughts that appear inthe heart have as their basis the egoity which is the first mentalmode "I," the cognition of the form "I am the body"; thus, it is therise of egoity that is the cause and source of the rise of all otherthoughts; therefore, if the self-conceit of the form of egoity, whichis the root of the illusory tree of samsara (bondage consisting oftransmigration) , is destroyed, all other thoughts will perishcompletely like an uprooted tree. (Ramana Maharshi, Self-Enquiry,answer to question 4.)............ ......... .........

.......... ........** Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Self, but a radiantmanifestation of Self.Q: If "I" am always here and now, why don't I feel it?M: That's is the point! Who says that it is not felt? Does the real"I" say it or the false "I"? Examine it. You will find it is the wrong"I." The wrong "I" is the obstruction. It has to be removed in orderthat the true "I" might not be hidden. (Conscious Immortality, PaulBrunton) ............ ......... ......... ......... ........**To lose that ego is to become a psychotic, not a sage.For Him who is immersed in the bliss of the Self, arising from theextinction of the ego, what remains to be accomplished? He is notaware of anything (as) other than the Self. Who can apprehend hisState? (Ramana Maharshi, Forty verse on Reality, verse 31.)It comes into being equipped with a form, and as long as it retains aform

it endures. Having a form, it feeds and grows big. But if youinvestigate it, this evil spirit, which has no form of its own,relinquishes its grip on form and takes to flight. (Ramana Maharshi,Forty verse on Reality, verse 25.)............ ......... ......... ......... ........**Brahman or Self includes body, emotions and mind, they do not erasethem.Brahman is not all-inclusive, because he/she/it has no parts that areincluded in him, Brahman is all-pervading............. ......... ......... ......... ........**And that means we do not "get rid" of the small ego, but rather, weinhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehiclethrough which Truth is communicated.Bhagavan's Translation of Vivekachudamani of Adi Shankaracharya:Knowledge of the identity of the self with Brahman is clearly revealedas soon as the ego is completely destroyed without residue,

togetherwith the illusion of multiplicity caused by the veiling of tamas.Therefore, by investigation into the nature of the unattached Self,discover the Truth of your own Self, complete, perfect, self-effulgentand ever-blissful. He who is freed from the ego shines eternally asthe Self, like the full moon, radiant when delivered from the dragon'shead (of eclipse). In the field of the Heart the terrible cobra of theego is coiled round the Bliss of the Self to which it denies accesswith the threefold hood of the gunas. These three fearful heads of theserpent of ego are to be severed, in accordance with the scriptures,only by great courage with the mighty sword of actual experience ofthe Self. He who has thus destroyed the three-hooded serpent canobtain and enjoy the vast treasure of the Bliss of Brahman. Thereforeyou, too, give up the `I-sense' in the ego, which appears like beingand assumes that it

is the doer, whereas it is only the reflectedlight of the Self. Turn inwards all the thought-forms that adhere tothe ego. He is an enemy of yours, so kill him with the sword ofknowledge. He has been harming you like a thorn in your throat whileeating. Give up all desires in order to realize your state as theSupreme Self. Enjoy the kingdom of the Self, be perfect, be still inthe stillness of the immutable state of Brahman."The ego may in this way be killed, but if thought is given to it evenfor a moment it revives and engages in activity, driving a man beforeit as the wind drives winter clouds. Remember that he who associatesthe `I-sense' with the body and its faculties is bound while he whodoes not is liberated............. ......... ......... ......... ........**When identification ceases with the ego and into the Self, the egodiscovers that the individual atman is in fact one with

Brahman.Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking itsidentity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanishand reality will shine forth by itself.-'Be As You Are', The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Edited by DavidGodman

September 19, 2008

Dave, namaskar,

It's fine, relax, not so important after all.

Behind the words, our language points to different concepts and also

different feelings.

I'm done.

All the best,

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

Dave Sirjue <davesirjue wrote:

>

> Greetings Maunna Sahdu!

>

> You apparently read a lot and quote from different authors on the

Maharshi, without mistranslations I suppose. From your intuitive

understanding what does all this mean to you ? If the Self has

awakened then the books have done its job and should be handed over or

dispensed with. You regain your natural peaceful self and remain your

own authority... not an imitation, carbon copy or second-hand person.

To thine own self be true.

>

> Be a light onto yourself.

>

> shanti

> -dev sadhu

September 19, 2008

Hi David,

What collapses is the false notion of self.

To paraphrase what you said earlier... 'The essential nature of all

forms is the Eternal Self'... this is simply true and since

what 'you' are is the Eternal self already there is no need of a

separate functional entity called the ego.

We can deconstruct the expressions of the Eretnal Self (I speak of

this as Awareness or Sat-Chit-Ananda), yet what I am speaking about

is the self-evident fact that the Source (by whaterver name)

expresses itself... it acts.

The expression of 'the Source' is action or motion/energy in terms of

modern physics. And modern scientists like Albert Einstein have

unquestionably demonstrated that all of what is called matter is

energy in-formation... said another way, it is 'the Source' in form

as its actions which is energy that has concretized into form.

In this way each form is a distinct expression of and is the same in

essence as its Source - it literally IS it in this localized form.

And since it 'is' it, then each localized ezpression of Source has

the same attributes/abilities as Source... this means that it

expresses itself in the same manner that its Source does... thus it

commands energy/motion... when energy motion is focused on name and

form as directed by one's parents, siblings and society, then that

energy concretizes into the form called the ego.... a mental creation

generated by focusing energy in a particular way.

And this is simply a mistake because it is not who/what you truly

are. Although it is functionally practical to be able to use symbols

to represent facts (like calling you Dave as a means of functionally

identifying a form/expression of Source) - it is simply untrue to

conclude and act as if functional symbols are the same as the facts

they represent (you will starve to death if/when you only think about

consuming food and never actually eat it).

In this light you are a distinct form yet not separate from Source.

Since you are not different you have the same attributes/abilities

that it has - you see as Awareness and you are able to express

yourself. If/when you identify with your expression then you are

mistaken because that identification is mentally generated - limited.

In the manner described above it is not that everything collapses -

what collaspes is that which was never true - your ego... what

remains and continues to function is what is/was 'never not the

case'... your true nature functions...

The term I use for your true nature is Awareness. It is highly

significant to understand (not 'you' understand - Awareness is its

own knowing - it understands)... Awareness plays both roles as what

you are is Awareness, the noun - or subject and Awareness acts, this

is the verb (seeing is doing - action arisess out of seeing, when

there is clarity in seeing then action is appropriate to the moment,

it leaves nothing lacking and no residue)...

I label these dual roles of Awareness as: Spacious Awareness and

Active Awareness - what is important is to see that these roles

manifest simultaneously as they simply are the fundamental forms of

Awareness.

You are a simultaneously a localized form of Awareness as its

expression and Your are Awareness itself... You are infinite-eternal -

the Self.

Love,

James

, Dave Sirjue <davesirjue

wrote:

>

> --- On Thu, 9/18/08, James Traverse <nisarga111 wrote:

>

> James Traverse <nisarga111

> Re: pseudo-advaita....

>

> Thursday, September 18, 2008, 6:45 PM

Namaste James!

> Let's proceed along the lines of Jnana and take it in small steps

if time permits. As you may well know Mananam is thought,

investigation, and discussion which marks the independent thinking

mind. First there is shravanam listening to the teacher; then

mananam, which is the thinking or understanding, discussion upon, and

testing of what is heard as opposed to the mere acceptance on trust

of the lower intelligence. These two are followed by nididhyasanam,

which is attention and profound contemplation on the conclusions

(siddhanta) drawn from what is so heard and reasoned upon.

> This is the beauty of Jnana -Direct pointing out- as opposed to

other practice based approaches involving prescriptions, meditations

and so on .

> J. Instead of 'killing' the ego (or beating it to submission or

> dismissing it as an illusion) which can only be the act of a more

> subtle degree of 'ego' what happens is that awareness of your true

> nature is what is focused on so that the energy that fuels the

> mentally generated 'ego' is no longer available to sustain it -

thus

> it collapses and yet there is no discontinuity to being nor is

there

> any cessation of functioning.

> D. Ego can be defined as identification with a particular type of

thought . When the ego collapses do all thoughts collapse with it or

is it the desire to react to thoughts that ceases ? Can you be

conscious without thoughts? Maybe thought falls in its own natural

state like the breath and arises when necessary without taking

ownership of the thoughts. Maybe thoughts belong to a common thought-

sphere which each living organism draws upon depending upon its

propensity and survival need. There are three major kinds of

thoughts -

> Practical thoughts, which are useful in conducting business in our

daily functional life.

> Contemplative and inspirational thoughts.

> Thoughts related to the notion of being a self , reacting to not-

self through hopes and fears, clinging and avoidance.

> Do all of these collapse ?

>

> -d

>

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September 19, 2008

Hi again David,

One other clear pointer is that there is no 'you' or ego in Deep

Sleep... yet there is no discontinuity to being/functioning.

Love,

Jmaes

, " James Traverse "

<nisarga111 wrote:

>

> Hi David,

>

> What collapses is the false notion of self.

>

> To paraphrase what you said earlier... 'The essential nature of all

> forms is the Eternal Self'... this is simply true and since

> what 'you' are is the Eternal self already there is no need of a

> separate functional entity called the ego.

>

> We can deconstruct the expressions of the Eretnal Self (I speak of

> this as Awareness or Sat-Chit-Ananda), yet what I am speaking about

> is the self-evident fact that the Source (by whaterver name)

> expresses itself... it acts.

>

> The expression of 'the Source' is action or motion/energy in terms

of

> modern physics. And modern scientists like Albert Einstein have

> unquestionably demonstrated that all of what is called matter is

> energy in-formation... said another way, it is 'the Source' in form

> as its actions which is energy that has concretized into form.

>

> In this way each form is a distinct expression of and is the same

in

> essence as its Source - it literally IS it in this localized form.

> And since it 'is' it, then each localized ezpression of Source has

> the same attributes/abilities as Source... this means that it

> expresses itself in the same manner that its Source does... thus it

> commands energy/motion... when energy motion is focused on name and

> form as directed by one's parents, siblings and society, then that

> energy concretizes into the form called the ego.... a mental

creation

> generated by focusing energy in a particular way.

>

> And this is simply a mistake because it is not who/what you truly

> are. Although it is functionally practical to be able to use

symbols

> to represent facts (like calling you Dave as a means of

functionally

> identifying a form/expression of Source) - it is simply untrue to

> conclude and act as if functional symbols are the same as the facts

> they represent (you will starve to death if/when you only think

about

> consuming food and never actually eat it).

>

> In this light you are a distinct form yet not separate from Source.

> Since you are not different you have the same attributes/abilities

> that it has - you see as Awareness and you are able to express

> yourself. If/when you identify with your expression then you are

> mistaken because that identification is mentally generated -

limited.

>

> In the manner described above it is not that everything collapses -

> what collaspes is that which was never true - your ego... what

> remains and continues to function is what is/was 'never not the

> case'... your true nature functions...

>

> The term I use for your true nature is Awareness. It is highly

> significant to understand (not 'you' understand - Awareness is its

> own knowing - it understands)... Awareness plays both roles as what

> you are is Awareness, the noun - or subject and Awareness acts,

this

> is the verb (seeing is doing - action arisess out of seeing, when

> there is clarity in seeing then action is appropriate to the

moment,

> it leaves nothing lacking and no residue)...

>

> I label these dual roles of Awareness as: Spacious Awareness and

> Active Awareness - what is important is to see that these roles

> manifest simultaneously as they simply are the fundamental forms of

> Awareness.

>

> You are a simultaneously a localized form of Awareness as its

> expression and Your are Awareness itself... You are infinite-

eternal -

> the Self.

>

> Love,

> James

>

, Dave Sirjue <davesirjue@>

> wrote:

> >

> > --- On Thu, 9/18/08, James Traverse <nisarga111@> wrote:

> >

> > James Traverse <nisarga111@>

> > Re: pseudo-advaita....

> >

> > Thursday, September 18, 2008, 6:45 PM

> >

> > Namaste James!

> > Let's proceed along the lines of Jnana and take it in small steps

> if time permits. As you may well know Mananam is thought,

> investigation, and discussion which marks the independent thinking

> mind. First there is shravanam listening to the teacher; then

> mananam, which is the thinking or understanding, discussion upon,

and

> testing of what is heard as opposed to the mere acceptance on trust

> of the lower intelligence. These two are followed by nididhyasanam,

> which is attention and profound contemplation on the conclusions

> (siddhanta) drawn from what is so heard and reasoned upon.

> > This is the beauty of Jnana -Direct pointing out- as opposed to

> other practice based approaches involving prescriptions,

meditations

> and so on .

> > J. Instead of 'killing' the ego (or beating it to submission or

> > dismissing it as an illusion) which can only be the act of a more

> > subtle degree of 'ego' what happens is that awareness of your

true

> > nature is what is focused on so that the energy that fuels the

> > mentally generated 'ego' is no longer available to sustain it -

> thus

> > it collapses and yet there is no discontinuity to being nor is

> there

> > any cessation of functioning.

> > D. Ego can be defined as identification with a particular type of

> thought . When the ego collapses do all thoughts collapse with it

or

> is it the desire to react to thoughts that ceases ? Can you be

> conscious without thoughts? Maybe thought falls in its own natural

> state like the breath and arises when necessary without taking

> ownership of the thoughts. Maybe thoughts belong to a common

thought-

> sphere which each living organism draws upon depending upon its

> propensity and survival need. There are three major kinds of

> thoughts -

> > Practical thoughts, which are useful in conducting business in

our

> daily functional life.

> > Contemplative and inspirational thoughts.

> > Thoughts related to the notion of being a self , reacting to

not-

> self through hopes and fears, clinging and avoidance.

> > Do all of these collapse ?

> >

> > -d

> >

> > Recent Activity

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> >

>

September 19, 2008

Mounaji,

One of the problems reading Ramana's translated works is that he spoke to seekers whose levels of development were different. To beginners he might state 'the world is unreal' to the more mature he might say 'Brahman is the world'. This can be quite confusing to the usual reader studying his works.

Krishna does the same in Uddhava Gita compared to Bhagavad Gita uttered to Arjuna. Somewhere in Bhagavad Gita though he states something to the effect: the mind (ego) can be your worst enemy as well as your best friend.

So relax indeed.... but it's not that simple my friend! To relax the seeker must have already made extreme efforts or else insight will not arise with the understanding that happiness or security he is seeking is not to be found in objects or things (gross or subtle). Any attempt to find security as such is bound to fail. When this is fully understood, the mind or attention relaxes in a natural state of Stillness in the present moment. Seeking into the future simply disappears or stops effortlessly, on its own accord. Behind words is ultimately the wordless, the pregnant alive Silence where mind can never enter.........

..... That Thou Art.

-d

--- On Thu, 9/18/08, upadesa <maunna wrote:

upadesa <maunna Re: pseudo-advaita.... Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 8:53 PM

Dave, namaskar,It's fine, relax, not so important after all.Behind the words, our language points to different concepts and alsodifferent feelings.I'm done.All the best,Yours in Bhagavan,MounaDave Sirjue <davesirjue@ ...> wrote:>> Greetings Maunna Sahdu! > > You apparently read a lot and quote from different authors on theMaharshi, without mistranslati ons I suppose. From your intuitiveunderstanding what does all this mean to you ? If the Self hasawakened then the books have done its job and should be handed over ordispensed with. You regain your natural peaceful self and remain yourown authority... not an imitation, carbon copy or second-hand person.To thine own self be true. > > Be a light onto yourself.> > shanti> -dev

sadhu

September 19, 2008

DavidJi or Daveji or better Devaji,

In some points, nothing to say, in others, mmmm...

Let's see

> One of the problems reading Ramana's translated works is that

he spoke to seekers whose levels of development were different. To

beginners he might state 'the world is unreal' to the more mature he

might say 'Brahman is the world'. This can be quite confusing to the

usual reader studying his works.

--- What I understood of the different levels of communication that

Bhagavan employed is more related as how prepared was the mind of the

one asking questions to hear his Upadesa of Self-Enquiry, to directly

enquire " Who Am I? To some people he instructed to continue their

practice of Japa, or Karma Yoga or even meditation. To others Be Still

and Enquire. To say " the world is unreal " and " Brahman is the world "

is just the same for the unprepared mind. Besides the fact that I

never heard that Bhagavan made such split statements, he always said

Brahman is real, the Universe is unreal, Brahman is the Universe.

(Yes, Daveji, I read a lot of Bhagavan books... what do you want? I

love doing that!)

> Krishna does the same in Uddhava Gita compared to Bhagavad Gita

uttered to Arjuna. Somewhere in Bhagavad Gita though he states

something to the effect: the mind (ego) can be your worst enemy as

well as your best friend.

--- Can't say anything here because I didn't read the Uddava Gita yet,

but I doubt that could be something " new " or different from the Gita

itself because the Gita is a comprehensive Teaching, meaning that it

encompasses all levels of practice AND understanding.

> So relax indeed.... but it's not that simple my friend! To relax the

seeker must have already made extreme efforts or else insight will not

arise with the understanding that happiness or security he is

seeking is not to be found in objects or things (gross or subtle). Any

attempt to find security as such is bound to fail. When this is fully

understood, the mind or attention relaxes in a natural state of

Stillness in the present moment. Seeking into the future simply

disappears or stops effortlessly, on its own accord. Behind words is

ultimately the wordless, the pregnant alive Silence where mind can

never enter.........

--- My employing the word " relax " was more because I felt you were

coming from a different part on your last posting, maybe I

misunderstood it (quite possible!!)

Anyhow, nothing to say on this, agree 100%. After all Bhagavan clearly

stated that unless the sahaja state is clearly established, one has

to continue doing efforts. The life of many of his devotees proved this.

> .... That Thou Art.

--- You too!!

All the best, and best... the All.

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

September 20, 2008

On Behalf Of upadesa

Friday, September 19, 2008 6:44 PM

Re: pseudo-advaita....