Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Dear Mariusz, It is good to have you with us , welcome. In my view the Gunas only 'appear' to be permanent, but after Self Equiry only the satvic Guna remains, and that is the Natural State which need no longer be termed as a Guna. Other members may have different views and maybe they will also contribute an answer to your question. On Time, there is a new book that has just been published by Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi titled 'Ramana Maharshi's Philosophy of Existence and Modern Science, The Convergence in their Vision of Reality', by Dr.J.Sithamparanathan. He is a staunch Ramana devotee and a Scientist. He equates Ramana's Teaching with the latest findings of Modern Science. It contains a chapter on Space and Time, and there are many references to Time in the index. You can order it from the publishers. It is very clear and well written. All best wishes and regards, Alan --- On Tue, 30/9/08, mortlake2002 <shamshir wrote: mortlake2002 <shamshir The gunas & time Date: Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 4:48 AM Hello,I am new to this group, thanks for having me. I have been reading advaitic texts for several years now and I am still searching for a decisive and succinct answer to the following question: if only unchangeable things are real, are the gunas real? Of course, I know that they are only concepts, and that ultimately everything is real, but what bothers me is the discrepancy between this definition of reality (i.e., real = unchangeable) and the permanent nature of the gunas. In fact, the same applies to the four states of being...Another question: where can I find an in-depth discussion of the concept of time from the advaitic perspective?Many thanks,Mariusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: In my view the Gunas only 'appear' to be permanent... Dear Alan, Thank you kindly for your reply. Could you possibly elaborate on your statement above? I would like to know your exact line of reasoning. Best regards, Mariusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Dear Mariusz, Everything perceived by the mind is an appearance on the screen of consciousness- including thoughts, feelings, and the different states of the gunas, for the ajnani. Only after Realisation are 'things' perceived seen as Real because they are known from the 'no mind state' and the Jnani is aware of the substratum which is Absolute Pure Consciousness or Brahman. But after Self Enquiry the rajistic stae and the tamastic states are expelled along with vasanas , vrittis and skandas. Then only satva remains but that is only nominal as the Jnani is now in the Natural State, as ithe Self is no longer veiled by all that has been expelled. I hope that is clearer. Ask again if you wish. All best wishes and regards, Alan --- On Tue, 30/9/08, mortlake2002 <shamshir wrote: mortlake2002 <shamshirRe: The gunas & time Date: Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 1:52 PM , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:In my view the Gunas only 'appear' to be permanent... Dear Alan,Thank you kindly for your reply. Could you possibly elaborate on your statement above? I would like to know your exact line of reasoning.Best regards,Mariusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Dear Alan, Thank you again. I believe that I understand this - but I am speaking on the level of duality. On the ultimate, non-dual level all concepts, categories, etc. are " extinct " . But what about the definition of reality as that which is unchanging? It can function only on the level of duality, just like the gunas; and on the dual level the gunas are apparently unchanging, aren't they? Best regards, Mariusz , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Mariusz, >  > Everything perceived by the mind is an appearance on the screen of consciousness- including thoughts, feelings, and the different states of the gunas, for the ajnani. >  > Only after Realisation are 'things' perceived seen as Real because they are known from the 'no mind state' and the Jnani is aware of the substratum which is Absolute Pure Consciousness or Brahman. >  >  But after Self Enquiry the rajistic stae and the tamastic states are expelled along with vasanas , vrittis and skandas. Then only satva remains but that is only nominal as the Jnani  is now in the Natural State, as ithe Self is no longer veiled by all that has been expelled. >  > I hope that is clearer. Ask again if you wish. >  > All best wishes and regards, >  > Alan > > --- On Tue, 30/9/08, mortlake2002 <shamshir wrote: > > mortlake2002 <shamshir > Re: The gunas & time > > Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 1:52 PM , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > In my view the Gunas only 'appear' to be permanent... > > Dear Alan, > > Thank you kindly for your reply. Could you possibly elaborate on your > statement above? I would like to know your exact line of reasoning. > > Best regards, > > Mariusz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 , " mortlake2002 " <shamshir wrote: > > > Dear Alan, > > Thank you again. I believe that I understand this - but I am speaking > on the level of duality. On the ultimate, non-dual level all > concepts, categories, etc. are " extinct " . But what about the > definition of reality as that which is unchanging? It can function > only on the level of duality, just like the gunas; and on the dual > level the gunas are apparently unchanging, aren't they? > > Best regards, > > Mariusz > the all-containing self/reality, ever whole, timeless and unchanagable, is beyond the duality of existence/nonexistence. therefore, it does not exist as far as the identifying, dual attitude is concerned. the gunas, modes which indicate the various attitudes are identity-dependendent, and thus extinct (non existing) in the unchanging... reality can not be contained and is therefore undefinable... " if you trap the wind, it dies " . true spirituality begins where definitions end hahaha descriptions are not definitions. respectfully, yosy ps. mariusz... are you polish? > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@> wrote: > > > > Dear Mariusz, > >  > > Everything perceived by the mind is an appearance on the screen of > consciousness- including thoughts, feelings, and the > different states of the gunas, for the ajnani. > >  > > Only after Realisation are 'things' perceived seen as Real because > they are known from the 'no mind state' and the Jnani is aware of the > substratum which is Absolute Pure Consciousness or Brahman. > >  > >  But after Self Enquiry the rajistic stae and the tamastic states > are expelled along with vasanas , vrittis and skandas. Then only > satva remains but that is only nominal as the Jnani  is now in the > Natural State, as ithe Self is no longer veiled by all that has > been expelled. > >  > > I hope that is clearer. Ask again if you wish. > >  > > All best wishes and regards, > >  > > Alan > > > > --- On Tue, 30/9/08, mortlake2002 <shamshir@> wrote: > > > > mortlake2002 <shamshir@> > > Re: The gunas & time > > > > Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 1:52 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > In my view the Gunas only 'appear' to be permanent... > > > > Dear Alan, > > > > Thank you kindly for your reply. Could you possibly elaborate on > your > > statement above? I would like to know your exact line of reasoning. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Mariusz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Dear Mariusz,, On the Relativily Real level Gunas are only a description which applies to an individual mind-body system. They are in continuous flux and are different for each jiva, there is no such thing as a guna you can extract, put it under a so called scientific examination and say what it is as a scientific description. If they were unchanging we could call them real, as that is the definition of Real in Vedanta. The term Guna is a useful term to denote the changing psychological states of a deluded individual living in the dream of life. Yosyx gives you a good answer too. Why be concerned about these changing states? When you are in satva, a clear state of mind, encouraged through a vegetarian diet, one can practice and enjoy Self Enquiry more easily. On the dual level of relative reality everything is changing, especially the so called Gunas. If they ewere unchanging they could be termed Real. All kind regards, Alan --- On Wed, 1/10/08, yosyx <yosyflug wrote: yosyx <yosyflug Re: The gunas & time Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 1:19 AM , " mortlake2002 " <shamshir@.. .> wrote: > > > Dear Alan, > > Thank you again. I believe that I understand this - but I am speaking > on the level of duality. On the ultimate, non-dual level all > concepts, categories, etc. are " extinct " . But what about the > definition of reality as that which is unchanging? It can function > only on the level of duality, just like the gunas; and on the dual > level the gunas are apparently unchanging, aren't they? > > Best regards, > > Mariusz > the all-containing self/reality, ever whole, timeless and unchanagable, is beyond the duality of existence/nonexiste nce. therefore, it does not exist as far as the identifying, dual attitude is concerned. the gunas, modes which indicate the various attitudes are identity-dependende nt, and thus extinct (non existing) in the unchanging.. . reality can not be contained and is therefore undefinable. .. " if you trap the wind, it dies " . true spirituality begins where definitions end hahaha descriptions are not definitions. respectfully, yosy ps. mariusz... are you polish? > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@ > wrote: > > > > Dear Mariusz, > >  > > Everything perceived by the mind is an appearance on the screen of > consciousness- including thoughts, feelings, and the > different states of the gunas, for the ajnani. > >  > > Only after Realisation are 'things' perceived seen as Real because > they are known from the 'no mind state' and the Jnani is aware of the > substratum which is Absolute Pure Consciousness or Brahman. > >  > >  But after Self Enquiry the rajistic stae and the tamastic states > are expelled along with vasanas , vrittis and skandas. Then only > satva remains but that is only nominal as the Jnani  is now in the > Natural State, as ithe Self is no longer veiled by all that has > been expelled. > >  > > I hope that is clearer. Ask again if you wish. > >  > > All best wishes and regards, > >  > > Alan > > > > --- On Tue, 30/9/08, mortlake2002 <shamshir@> wrote: > > > > mortlake2002 <shamshir@> > > Re: The gunas & time > > > > Tuesday, 30 September, 2008, 1:52 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > In my view the Gunas only 'appear' to be permanent... > > > > Dear Alan, > > > > Thank you kindly for your reply. Could you possibly elaborate on > your > > statement above? I would like to know your exact line of reasoning. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Mariusz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Mariusz,, > > On the Relativily Real level Gunas are only a description which applies to an individual mind-body system. They are in continuous flux and are different for each jiva, there is no such thing as a guna you can extract, put it under a so called scientific examination and say what it is as a scientific description. If they were unchanging we could call them real, as that is the definition of Real in Vedanta. Dear Alan, Many thanks for your patience. What I am talking about would be probably called by the Schoolmen the essence of the gunas while your latest reply is concerned with their accidents. In other words, we are told that there are always three of them, and that they have their specific names, and that their characteristics are such and such. That's what I perceive - probably wrongly - as their permanence. " Yosyx gives you a good answer too. Why be concerned about these changing states? " I am concerned with them because they seem to undermine the entire doctrine of which I am intuitively convinced that it is true. This is a real stumbling block for me, please prove that my understanding is wrong! 8) " When you are in satva, a clear state of mind, encouraged through a vegetarian diet, one can practice and enjoy Self Enquiry more easily. " Incidentally, I have been a vegetarian for at least five years. Dear Yosyx, Thank you for your reply, too. Yes, I am Polish but I live in Canada. Best regards, Mariusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Dear M.. I cannot help any more . I do not know what you mean by the difference between the Gunas and their essence.?Who are the Scholmen to whom you refer.?Please note this group discusses AdvaitaVedanta. All regards, Alan --- On Wed, 1/10/08, mortlake2002 <shamshir wrote: mortlake2002 <shamshirRe: The gunas & time Date: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 1:57 PM , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Mariusz,,> > On the Relativily Real level Gunas are only a description which applies to an individual mind-body system. They are in continuous flux and are different for each jiva, there is no such thing as a guna you can extract, put it under a so called scientific examinati on and say what it is as a scientific description. If they were unchanging we could call them real, as that is the definition of Real in Vedanta. Dear Alan,Many thanks for your patience. What I am talking about would be probably called by the Schoolmen the essence of the gunas while your latest reply is concerned with their accidents. In other words, we are told that there are always three of them, and that they have their specific names, and that their characteristics are such and such. That's what I perceive - probably wrongly - as their permanence."Yosyx gives you a good answer too. Why be concerned about these changing states?"I am concerned with them because they seem to undermine the entire doctrine of which I am intuitively convinced that it is true. This is a real stumbling block for me, please prove that my understanding is wrong! 8)"When you are in satva, a clear state of mind, encouraged through a vegetarian diet, one can practice and enjoy Self Enquiry more easily."Incidentally, I have been a vegetarian for at least five years.Dear Yosyx,Thank you for your reply, too. Yes, I am Polish but I live in Canada.Best regards,Mariusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Dear Alan & Yosyx, Thank you again for your help, goodbye. Best regards, Mariusz , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear M.. >  > I cannot help any more . I do not know what you mean by the difference between the Gunas and their essence.?Who are the Scholmen to whom you refer.?Please note this group discusses AdvaitaVedanta. >  > All regards, >  > Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.