Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 from AHAM DESIRELESSNESS > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for > those whose minds > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness > by profound > devotion to God, who is desireless. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > These quotations are from the book, > Guru--Ramana--Vachana--Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who' > published by Sri Ramanasramam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Hello Dear Alan The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think that man should suppress his desires???The sentence "profound devotion to God" is also very obscure!For many humans, the word "devotion" means love, an emotion, a feeling or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, it will lead to the sentence "I love God"! With the result of the creation of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are personal and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing to by this word "Devotion". , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote:>> from AHAM> > DESIRELESSNESS> > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for> > those whose minds> > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness> > by profound> > devotion to God, who is desireless.> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > > > These quotations are from the book,> > Guru--Ramana--Vachana--Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who'> > published by Sri Ramanasramam.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Dear Mouad, You may well be right. This, however, is how Murunagar recorded an utterance of Bhagavan's. Of course perhaps the translation is poor. Good to hear from you again. All regards, Alan --- On Fri, 10/10/08, mourad <mourad_shamel wrote: mourad <mourad_shamel Re: Desirelessness Date: Friday, 10 October, 2008, 9:56 AM Hello Dear Alan The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think that man should suppress his desires???The sentence "profound devotion to God" is also very obscure!For many humans, the word "devotion" means love, an emotion, a feeling or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, it will lead to the sentence "I love God"! With the result of the creation of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are personal and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing to by this word "Devotion". , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:>> from AHAM> > DESIRELESSNESS> > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for> > those whose minds> > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness> > by profound> > devotion to God, who is desireless.> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~> > > > These quotations are from the book,> > Guru--Ramana- -Vachana- -Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who'> > published by Sri Ramanasramam.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Dear Mourad, I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged. You may wish to comment further. All best wishes and regards, Alan , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > > > > Hello Dear Alan > > The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think that > man should suppress his desires??? > The sentence " profound devotion to God " is also very obscure! > For many humans, the word " devotion " means love, an emotion, a feeling > or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, it > will lead to the sentence " I love God " ! With the result of the creation > of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are personal > and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing to by > this word " Devotion " . > > , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@> > wrote: > > > > from AHAM > > > > DESIRELESSNESS > > > > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for > > > those whose minds > > > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness > > > by profound > > > devotion to God, who is desireless. > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > These quotations are from the book, > > > Guru--Ramana--Vachana--Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who' > > > published by Sri Ramanasramam. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Good morning Dear AlanWhat is meant by renouncing desires? Renouncing desires is not an aim in itself.Desires are renounced and then stop comming to the heart of man when he sees and lives the great loss and jeopardy of having a desire.Every time man has a desire and follows this desire in order to make it come true, he pays a tremendous price. The price he pays is due to ego gratification or ego satisfaction resulting from the fulfillment of this desire. Ego gratification or satisfaction attracts calamaties, disasters and all the negative aspects in the world. The attracion of this negative aspect in the world that results from desire and the ensuning ego grartification or satisfaction ranges from simple relational conflicts, accidents, illnesses to serious conditions like loss of something of value in man's life. Unfortunately, man never sees this relation.When this CAUSE AND EFFECT -Karma- is clearly seen and engraved in man's heart, desirelessness follows. Desirelessness is the gate to search for the True abode of man, the True dwelling of man. Desirelessness is Surrender. Whe Surrender happens, the search for the QUALITIES of the NEW ABODE or NEW DWELLING is in Progress. mourad , "alan jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs wrote:>> Dear Mourad,> > I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox > rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to > renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an > obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, > without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over > repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is > the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged.> > You may wish to comment further.> > All best wishes and regards, > > Alan > > > > > , "mourad" mourad_shamel@ > wrote:> >> > > > > > > > Hello Dear Alan> > > > The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think > that> > man should suppress his desires???> > The sentence "profound devotion to God" is also very obscure!> > For many humans, the word "devotion" means love, an emotion, a > feeling> > or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, > it> > will lead to the sentence "I love God"! With the result of the > creation> > of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are > personal> > and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing > to by> > this word "Devotion".> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@>> > wrote:> > >> > > from AHAM> > >> > > DESIRELESSNESS> > > >> > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for> > > > those whose minds> > > > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness> > > > by profound> > > > devotion to God, who is desireless.> > > >> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > > >> > > > These quotations are from the book,> > > > Guru--Ramana--Vachana--Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who'> > > > published by Sri Ramanasramam.> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 There isn't a paradox: discouraged are desires that, once fulfilled, give rise to the next (summarized with "bigger, better, and more, forever"). The desire for liberation arises naturally, once it is clear that all other desires only give rise to more desires and the satisfaction from their fulfillment is just temporary. Hence the dissolution of afflictions (of which desiring is one) is like casting off what (seemingly) veils (had veiled) the real nature (Self) and from that perspective, the desire for liberation is but the affirmation of the real nature. Peace, Jan alan jacobs wrote: Dear Mourad, I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged. You may wish to comment further. All best wishes and regards, Alan [..] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Good evening Dear Alan I wish to clarify and continu, my previous post in answer to your question. When the hazardous effect of desire is recognized, man realizes he cannot just live idle, lest he will stagnate and rot, which is not realization. Therefore, man has no option but to continue his search, to establish the true abode. This search can never be considered a desire. mourad , "alan jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs wrote:>> Dear Mourad,> > I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox > rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to > renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an > obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, > without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over > repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is > the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged.> > You may wish to comment further.> > All best wishes and regards, > > Alan > > > > > , "mourad" mourad_shamel@ > wrote:> >> > > > > > > > Hello Dear Alan> > > > The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think > that> > man should suppress his desires???> > The sentence "profound devotion to God" is also very obscure!> > For many humans, the word "devotion" means love, an emotion, a > feeling> > or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, > it> > will lead to the sentence "I love God"! With the result of the > creation> > of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are > personal> > and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing > to by> > this word "Devotion".> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@>> > wrote:> > >> > > from AHAM> > >> > > DESIRELESSNESS> > > >> > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for> > > > those whose minds> > > > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness> > > > by profound> > > > devotion to God, who is desireless.> > > >> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > > >> > > > These quotations are from the book,> > > > Guru--Ramana--Vachana--Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who'> > > > published by Sri Ramanasramam.> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Dear Mourad, I am in full agreement. All best wishes and warm regards, Alan--- On Sat, 11/10/08, mourad <mourad_shamel wrote: mourad <mourad_shamel Re: Desirelessness Date: Saturday, 11 October, 2008, 8:32 PM Good evening Dear Alan I wish to clarify and continu, my previous post in answer to your question. When the hazardous effect of desire is recognized, man realizes he cannot just live idle, lest he will stagnate and rot, which is not realization. Therefore, man has no option but to continue his search, to establish the true abode. This search can never be considered a desire. mourad , "alan jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Mourad,> > I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox > rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to > renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an > obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, > without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over > repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is > the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged.> > You may wish to comment further.> > All best wishes and regards, > > Alan > > > > > , "mourad" mourad_shamel@ > wrote:> >> > > > > > > > Hello Dear Alan> > > > The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think > that> > man should suppress his desires???> > The sentence "profound devotion to God" is also very obscure!> > For many humans, the word "devotion" means love, an emotion, a > feeling> > or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, > it> > will lead to the sentence "I love God"! With the result of the > creation> > of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are > personal> > and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing > to by> > this word "Devotion".> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@>> > wrote:> > >> > > from AHAM> > >> > > DESIRELESSNESS> > > >> > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for> > > > those whose minds> > > > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness> > > > by profound> > > > devotion to God, who is desireless.> > > >> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~> > > >> > > > These quotations are from the book,> > > > Guru--Ramana- -Vachana- -Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who'> > > > published by Sri Ramanasramam.> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Dear Jan, Thanks for this helpful clarification, I shall now withdraw 'paradox' . All best wishes and regards, Alan --- On Sat, 11/10/08, ecirada <ecirada wrote: ecirada <eciradaRe: Re: Desirelessness Date: Saturday, 11 October, 2008, 3:35 PM There isn't a paradox: discouraged are desires that, once fulfilled,give rise to the next (summarized with "bigger, better, and more, forever").The desire for liberation arises naturally, once it is clear that all otherdesires only give rise to more desires and the satisfaction from their fulfillment is just temporary.Hence the dissolution of afflictions (of which desiring is one) is likecasting off what (seemingly) veils (had veiled) the real nature (Self)and from that perspective, the desire for liberation is but the affirmationof the real nature.Peace,Janalan jacobs wrote: Dear Mourad, I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged. You may wish to comment further. All best wishes and regards, Alan [..] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Dear Mourad, Thanks once again. When I wrote to you I was sure that a sadhak like your good Self would throw more light on this question. Most helpful. All best wishes and warm regards, Alan --- On Sat, 11/10/08, mourad <mourad_shamel wrote: mourad <mourad_shamel Re: Desirelessness Date: Saturday, 11 October, 2008, 9:14 AM Good morning Dear AlanWhat is meant by renouncing desires? Renouncing desires is not an aim in itself.Desires are renounced and then stop comming to the heart of man when he sees and lives the great loss and jeopardy of having a desire.Every time man has a desire and follows this desire in order to make it come true, he pays a tremendous price. The price he pays is due to ego gratification or ego satisfaction resulting from the fulfillment of this desire. Ego gratification or satisfaction attracts calamaties, disasters and all the negative aspects in the world. The attracion of this negative aspect in the world that results from desire and the ensuning ego grartification or satisfaction ranges from simple relational conflicts, accidents, illnesses to serious conditions like loss of something of value in man's life. Unfortunately, man never sees this relation.When this CAUSE AND EFFECT -Karma- is clearly seen and engraved in man's heart, desirelessness follows. Desirelessness is the gate to search for the True abode of man, the True dwelling of man. Desirelessness is Surrender. Whe Surrender happens, the search for the QUALITIES of the NEW ABODE or NEW DWELLING is in Progress. mourad , "alan jacobs" <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Mourad,> > I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox > rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to > renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an > obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, > without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over > repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is > the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged.> > You may wish to comment further.> > All best wishes and regards, > > Alan > > > > > , "mourad" mourad_shamel@ > wrote:> >> > > > > > > > Hello Dear Alan> > > > The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think > that> > man should suppress his desires???> > The sentence "profound devotion to God" is also very obscure!> > For many humans, the word "devotion" means love, an emotion, a > feeling> > or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, > it> > will lead to the sentence "I love God"! With the result of the > creation> > of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are > personal> > and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing > to by> > this word "Devotion".> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@>> > wrote:> > >> > > from AHAM> > >> > > DESIRELESSNESS> > > >> > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for> > > > those whose minds> > > > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness> > > > by profound> > > > devotion to God, who is desireless.> > > >> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~> > > >> > > > These quotations are from the book,> > > > Guru--Ramana- -Vachana- -Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who'> > > > published by Sri Ramanasramam.> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2008 Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 Dear Mourad, My teacher might say that all desires are really just the desire for happiness. When this is directed into the so called external world, then they are misdirected onto imagination and will not bring what is really desired, lasting happiness. When directed within, they for the basis of a good spiritual practice. Then the desire is to be who you are. Om Arunachala, Richard , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > > Good evening Dear Alan > > I wish to clarify and continu, my previous post in answer to your > question. > > When the hazardous effect of desire is recognized, man realizes he > cannot just live idle, lest he will stagnate and rot, which is not > realization. Therefore, man has no option but to continue his search, to > establish the true abode. This search can never be considered a desire. > > mourad > > , " alan jacobs " > <alanadamsjacobs@> wrote: > > > > Dear Mourad, > > > > I am pleased you raised this point. There is an esential paradox > > rooted in the question of Desire. On the one hand we are told to > > renounce the Desires that constitute the malign vasanas which are an > > obstacle on the path ( I think this is what this passage refers to, > > without mentioning other aspects), but we are also told not to over > > repress desires or else they break out too strongly. Then there is > > the benign desire of the Desire for Liberation which is encouraged. > > > > You may wish to comment further. > > > > All best wishes and regards, > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > , " mourad " mourad_shamel@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Dear Alan > > > > > > The words in Verse #26, might be very misleading. One might think > > that > > > man should suppress his desires??? > > > The sentence " profound devotion to God " is also very obscure! > > > For many humans, the word " devotion " means love, an emotion, a > > feeling > > > or a sensation. If the word devotion is understood in such a light, > > it > > > will lead to the sentence " I love God " ! With the result of the > > creation > > > of a relation between this man and his God. All relations are > > personal > > > and ego. I do not think that this is what Sri Ramana was pointing > > to by > > > this word " Devotion " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > <alanadamsjacobs@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > from AHAM > > > > > > > > DESIRELESSNESS > > > > > > > > > > Verse 26. The realization of the Self is not easy for > > > > > those whose minds > > > > > are in slavery to desires; let them attain desirelessness > > > > > by profound > > > > > devotion to God, who is desireless. > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > > These quotations are from the book, > > > > > Guru--Ramana--Vachana--Mala by Murunagar, translated by 'Who' > > > > > published by Sri Ramanasramam. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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