Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Dear Friend Michael If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? A question that needs an urgent answer. God Bles you all mourad , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > > michael.bindel Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > > yosyflug Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Dear Mourad there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata... Regarding your comment of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"... before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years. What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego.... Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding in His Grace michael - mourad Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Dear Friend Michael If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? A question that needs an urgent answer. God Bles you all mourad , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > > michael.bindel Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > > yosyflug Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Dear Michael I am always afraid from words. Words might be very misleading. Thank you for the clarification. mourad , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> > If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > > A question that needs an urgent answer.> > God Bles you all> > mourad> > > , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:> >> > Dear James> > > > regarding "Ego":> > > > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > > > learning/unlearning:> > > > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > > > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> > Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > > > "Illumination" etc> > > > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> > The expression which touched me was> > > > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > > > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > > > something else:> > > > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > > > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > > > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > > > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > > > regarding CONCEPTS> > > > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> > therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> > it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > > > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> > but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> > because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> > unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > > > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > > > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > > > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > > > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> > meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > > > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > > > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > > > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > > > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > > > your brother on the way> > > > > > michael bindel> > > > > > - > > james cogdell > > > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> > RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > > > > Dear Michael,> > Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > > Best wishes to you too,> > James> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > michael.bindel@> > Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> > Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > > > > > Dear James> > > > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> > Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> > I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> > BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > > > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > > > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > > > in Sri Ramana> > > > > > michael> > > > - > > james cogdell > > > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> > RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > > > > Hi Soul,> > I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > > Yours in Love,> > James> > > > > > > > > > > > ----------> > > > > > yosyflug@> > Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> > Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > > > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> > >> > > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > > or any language for that matter...> > > only Silence...> > > Ahhhh...> > > > > > Namaste,> > > Soul> > > > > > > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> > there is only one language - the language of the heart.> > there is only one religion - the religion of love.> > there is only one teacher - life itself.> > and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > > and omnipresent.> > > > BOOM!> > yosy> > > > > > > > > > > > ----------> > Get the best wallpapers on the Web - FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > ----------> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web - FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Michael, The question must be, what do you mean by ego? James From: mourad_shamelDate: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 12:41:08 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Dear Friend Michael If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? A question that needs an urgent answer. God Bles you all mourad , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > > michael.bindel Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > > yosyflug Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> Read amazing stories to your kids on Messenger Try it Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Michael, Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!! I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. Love James From: michael.bindelDate: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Dear Mourad there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata... Regarding your comment of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"... before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years. What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego.... Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding in His Grace michael - mourad Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Dear Friend Michael If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? A question that needs an urgent answer. God Bles you all mourad , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > > michael.bindel Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > > yosyflug Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08 Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hello James All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life. To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen. mourad , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > : michael.bindel: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi Mourad, How do you define Sri Ramana? James From: mourad_shamelDate: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Hello James All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life. To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen. mourad , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > : michael.bindel: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/> For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Dear satsang friends, Who is it who asks the question " Do I need an ego to live? " ?... It seems this question would come from ego itself... Ego is not who we are... This body/mind/conditioning is not who we are... But ego, or the apperance of a separate self, is a reflection of Consciouness... Appearing and disappearing within Consciousness or Awareness, This which we are... Ego arises as a wave, which is part of the Ocean, The Ocean being our true identity. There are many waves, but all are part of the Ocean, not separate from the Ocean. This I am. Namaste in This, Soul , " mourad " <mourad_shamel wrote: > > > Dear Friend Michael > > If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego > necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA > WAS EGOLESS > > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with > God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one > of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH > AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > > A question that needs an urgent answer. > > God Bles you all > > mourad > > > , " Michael Bindel " > <michael.bindel@> wrote: > > > > Dear James > > > > regarding " Ego " : > > > > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to " survive " in " world " . > Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and > misuse it, to " suffer " and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness > is mature enough, look " behind it " - for what it really is. > > > > learning/unlearning: > > > > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by > > > > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what > we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, " even " in " feeling " > " loving " and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice > > Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again > we have to check till we find the roots... > > > > " Illumination " etc > > > > what touched me the " most " in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - > of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in > reality no illumination " to achieve " . Because " we are illumination > always " , just we " have forgotten it " .... > > The expression which touched me was > > > > by " being born " the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the > " ongoing work " to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE > > > > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment.... > > > > something else: > > > > when real unlearning occurs you " get " a real CLEAR PICTURE of " whats > going on " without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the > need for proving it and discussing it > > > > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you > can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures > > > > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of " michael bindel " > > > > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into > " himherself " > > > > regarding CONCEPTS > > > > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts > > therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and > where to use orand not to use it > > it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana > stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, > functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE > > > > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception > > but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary > > because only then you can realize what " person " means and what SELF is > > unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again... > > > > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS > > > > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you > will discover that even these differences are " only " at the surface > > > > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you > are entrapped > > > > because behind these cultural religious and other so called > differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in > all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time > > meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all > real culture is not lived these " tragedies " HAVE TO occur > > > > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging > into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI > start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual > concepts with those eternal TRUTH > > > > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner > knowledge will be of assistance to you.... > > > > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that > the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE > SELF is true > > > > awaiting your esteemed reflections > > > > your brother on the way > > > > > > michael bindel > > > > > > - > > james cogdell > > > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM > > RE: Bhagavad Gita > > > > > > Dear Michael, > > Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have > a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how > strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have > meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't > explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away > of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I > perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope > you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I > assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex > and difficult to understand!! > > Best wishes to you too, > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- ----\ > ------ > > > > > > michael.bindel@ > > Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200 > > Re: Bhagavad Gita > > > > > > > > Dear James > > > > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i > discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we > do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT. > > Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk > a word at all to nobody around me and without any " stress " i tamed the > horse named " mind " . It was STILLNESS and it was incredible. > > I have experienced many socalled extraordinary " happenings " - but few > have shown me whats all about. > > BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD > > > > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince > others of the value of being a real " mensch " - of being a real human > being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many > troubles, war and so on. > > > > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the " manna " of being STILL. > > > > in Sri Ramana > > > > > > michael > > > > - > > james cogdell > > > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM > > RE: Bhagavad Gita > > > > > > Hi Soul, > > I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I > mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence > and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the > spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. > Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source > of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is > unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is > it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being > the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana > Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His > reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? > Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? > Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort > of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok > place to be. > > Yours in Love, > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- ----\ > ---- > > > > > > yosyflug@ > > Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000 > > Re: Bhagavad Gita > > > > > > > > , " Soul " soulyoginima@ wrote: > > > > > > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > > or any language for that matter... > > > only Silence... > > > Ahhhh... > > > > > > Namaste, > > > Soul > > > > > > > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity. > > there is only one language - the language of the heart. > > there is only one religion - the religion of love. > > there is only one teacher – life itself. > > and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > > and omnipresent. > > > > BOOM! > > yosy > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- ----\ > ---- > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > > -- ----\ > ---- > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release Date: > 23/10/2008 7.54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- ----\ > ------ > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > > -- ----\ > ------ > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release Date: > 23/10/2008 7.54 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 DEAR JAMES AND OTHERS IN THIS INTERESTING THREAD, The ego is naturally formed by Consciousness identifying with the mind and body at an early age. When the ego becomes mature and starts to see through the charade of life, its most intellignent part, intellectual discrimination, starts seeking for a solution to its life of rare joys and more frequent suffering. Through Grace it eventually comes into touch with this Teaching, and as James rightly says becomes the spring board for diving into the heart searching for its own source, or mistaken identity as a separate egotistic individual. After Self Realisation the ego is consumed in the Heart . The Jnani then lives from the Self which contains intelligence, discrimination and dispassion. He lives from what is termed the 'no mind state' i.e. the non egotistic state, quite satisfactorily in the apparant world, egolessly.. I hope this is some clarification on a knotty point. Regards to all, Alan --- On Sat, 25/10/08, james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote: > james cogdell <cogdelljames > RE: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? > > Saturday, 25 October, 2008, 8:32 PM > Hi Michael, > Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for > Mourad, not you!! > I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive > in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that > the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due > to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This > criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological > suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it > could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is > at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of > being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature > grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for > an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana > was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect > themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would > suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely > about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. > The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the > Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary > associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which > attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or > whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is > instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after > Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all > doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that > should be extinguished but something that should be used on > the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or > suppressed. > Love > James > > > > : > michael.bindel: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 > +0200Re: Bhagavad > Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? > > > > > > Dear Mourad > > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common > at this time of " history " . What we mean and what > we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is > even prophecised in the BIBLE. " misunderstanding of > tongue " i noticed in in the last months or years in > every social strata... > > Regarding your comment > > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience > was Egoless. HIS ego was " eaten up " ... > before this time - something else. You realize this by > reading his others accounts of his early years. > > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, > accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you > might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego.... > > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding > > > in His Grace > > michael > > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM > Re: Bhagavad Gita, > DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? > > > > Dear Friend Michael > If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi > had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly > at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- > that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri > Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked > by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I > NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer. > God Bles you all > mourad > , " Michael > Bindel " <michael.bindel wrote:>> Dear > James> > regarding " Ego " :> > due to my > experiences Ego is necessary to " survive " in > " world " . Therefore you have at first to recognize > it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to > " suffer " and only afterwards - is spiritual > consciousness is mature enough, look " behind it " - > for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced > by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have > to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in > every way, " even " in " feeling " > " loving " and so on) is REALLY that what we want to > practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner > uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the > roots...> > " Illumination " etc> > what > touched me the " most " in this theme is Sri Ramanas > explanation - of course out of his own experience, like > always - that there is in reality no illumination " to > achieve " . Because " we are illumination > always " , just we " have forgotten it " ....> > The expression which touched me was> > by " being > born " the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is > the " ongoing work " to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN > OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you > ment....> > something else:> > when real > unlearning occurs you " get " a real CLEAR PICTURE > of " whats going on " without intellectual knowledge > YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and > discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as > you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all > books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown > friend this are practical experiences of " michael > bindel " > > b u t everyone has to find out this by > his own digging into " himherself " > > > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the > link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have > to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to > use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity > only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has > to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions > automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let > it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> > but this is another theme on the way - but absolute > necessary> because only then you can realize what > " person " means and what SELF is> unclouded by > the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding > WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at > actual life around the world and history you will discover > that even these differences are " only " at the > surface> > and as long as you logically attach your > attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because > behind these cultural religious and other so called > differences its all the same otherwise it would not be > possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres > are happening all the time> meaning that whatever > cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is > not lived these " tragedies " HAVE TO occur> > > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really > digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by > SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and > immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal > TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in > daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to > you....> > and please take into account - as a real > beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that > WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your > brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > > - > james cogdell > > > Friday, > October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: [ - > Ramana Guru] Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> > Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to > Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am > just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it > clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and > experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't > explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a > falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily > terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through > instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand > what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume > that anything worth working towards has to be extremely > complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to > you too,> James> > > > > > > > > > > > michael.bindel Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 > +0200> Re: > Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one > who loved to talk and discuss about so many important > matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual > life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER > PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT > for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody > around me and without any " stress " i tamed the > horse named " mind " . It was STILLNESS and it was > incredible.> I have experienced many socalled > extraordinary " happenings " - but few have shown me > whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to > convince others of the value of being a real > " mensch " - of being a real human being and > discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many > troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - > try to discover the " manna " of being STILL.> > > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > ----- > Original Message ----- > james cogdell > To: > > Thursday, October > 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: [ - Ramana > Guru] Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm > afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > > It is only through language that liberation means anything > at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a > paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only > mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then > what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are > you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of > liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of > liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which > has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on > earth can we talk about silence being the source of > liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana > Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not > here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience > liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside > of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is > liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a > sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, > which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> > James> > > > > > > ----------> > > > > yosyflug Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> > Re: Bhagavad > Gita> > > > --- In > , " Soul " > soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know > sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that > matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of > humanity.> there is only one language - the language of > the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of > love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and > god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and > omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > > > ----------> > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > ----------> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / > Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 > 7.54> > > > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / > Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 > 7.54> > > > > > Checked by AVG - > http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: > 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08 _______________ > X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here! > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Namaste JAMES thank you for your information. Glad that you too share that what i realized regarding Ego. And of course its of no use - its contraproductive indeed - to use the "term" Ego as a scapegoat. Like in all other fields of our lessonstage LIFE! Nearly all are looking for scapegoats - like "jewsgypsieschinesecommunists" and all other " and the result is the actual stage the film of life is shown.... Ego has to be accepted as a necessary tool for realizing TRUTH. Somewhere beloved Sadguru Sri Ramana stated this too.... Only after having seen what the use or misuse of ego results in we have the chance with Grace to change it.... be embraced michael - james cogdell Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:53 PM RE: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Hi Mourad,How do you define Sri Ramana?James From: mourad_shamel Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Hello JamesAll definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.mourad , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > : michael.bindel: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/> For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1746 - Release 25/10/2008 17.55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hello James In answer to your question, I will quote the Gospel of Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden translation). Part of Logion #13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like." Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel." Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher." Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out." mourad -- In , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> James> > > > : mourad_shamel: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.> mourad> , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 My 2C: Annihilation of the ego is equivalent to the evolution of character. The soul evolves through Tamasic (animal-like - only interested in sensual pleasures) to Rajasic (activity driven - living for fame, money, power, lust) to Sattwic (Still active - but realising that there is more to life than money, power - still loving beauty - still attached to the world). From here we make the evolution to Nirguna - featureless. This evolution does not mean that we're characterless, but that we're beyond character. This is the stage at which the ego is finally annhilated. However, the soul HAS to go through the evolution. If we try to kill the ego at an earlier stage - we end up as characterless/colorless individuals. That is counterproductive and not the goal of Saadhana. The trick is to recognise ourselves (we sometimes need a guru for this). We need to develop character - all great saints/rishis had previous roles/incarnations as leaders of society. So my answer to your question would be - depends on where you are at in your evolution. If you love the trappings of wealth and power - you need to overcome that - through your karmas and through selfless service. Once you have overcome the love of things material - thats when a focus on destroying the ego comes into play. You don't need an ego to live... you need character. Again, this is just my 2c based on interpretations of what I've read. Rgds , " Michael Bindel " <michael.bindel wrote: > > Namaste JAMES > > > thank you for your information. > Glad that you too share that what i realized regarding Ego. > And of course its of no use - its contraproductive indeed - to use the " term " Ego as a scapegoat. Like in all other fields of our lessonstage LIFE! Nearly all are looking for scapegoats - like " jews " " gypsies " " chinese " " communists " and all other " " " and the result is the actual stage the film of life is shown.... > Ego has to be accepted as a necessary tool for realizing TRUTH. Somewhere beloved Sadguru Sri Ramana stated this too.... > Only after having seen what the use or misuse of ego results in we have the chance with Grace to change it.... > > be embraced > > michael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hi Mourad, I'm not being difficult but I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it possible to be direct without quoting from texts? Perhaps I am not yet up to your level. Muchlove, James From: mourad_shamelDate: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:48:41 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Hello James In answer to your question, I will quote the Gospel of Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden translation). Part of Logion #13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like." Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel." Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher." Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out." mourad -- In , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> James> > > > : mourad_shamel: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.> mourad> , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/> For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hi Satish, I love your 2c!! But what do you base your argument on? What came first for you, the learning of this psychological ontology (the map), or the actual experience of this evolution (the territory)? Much Love, James From: satishvijayanDate: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:40:03 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? My 2C: Annihilation of the ego is equivalent to the evolution of character. The soul evolves through Tamasic (animal-like - only interested in sensual pleasures) to Rajasic (activity driven - living for fame, money, power, lust) to Sattwic (Still active - but realising that there is more to life than money, power - still loving beauty - still attached to the world). From here we make the evolution to Nirguna - featureless. This evolution does not mean that we're characterless, but that we're beyond character. This is the stage at which the ego is finally annhilated. However, the soul HAS to go through the evolution. If we try to kill the ego at an earlier stage - we end up as characterless/colorless individuals. That is counterproductive and not the goal of Saadhana. The trick is to recognise ourselves (we sometimes need a guru for this). We need to develop character - all great saints/rishis had previous roles/incarnations as leaders of society.So my answer to your question would be - depends on where you are at in your evolution. If you love the trappings of wealth and power - you need to overcome that - through your karmas and through selfless service. Once you have overcome the love of things material - thats when a focus on destroying the ego comes into play. You don't need an ego to live... you need character. Again, this is just my 2c based on interpretations of what I've read.Rgds , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> Namaste JAMES> > > thank you for your information.> Glad that you too share that what i realized regarding Ego.> And of course its of no use - its contraproductive indeed - to use the "term" Ego as a scapegoat. Like in all other fields of our lessonstage LIFE! Nearly all are looking for scapegoats - like "jewsgypsieschinesecommunists" and all other " and the result is the actual stage the film of life is shown....> Ego has to be accepted as a necessary tool for realizing TRUTH. Somewhere beloved Sadguru Sri Ramana stated this too....> Only after having seen what the use or misuse of ego results in we have the chance with Grace to change it....> > be embraced> > michael> Read amazing stories to your kids on Messenger Try it Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Namaste Satish your contribution was welcomed... b u t your sentence is for most "misleading" You don't need an ego to live... you need character. with the use of words we have to be very very careful indeed why? because till a certain level words are misinterpreted according to the above mentioned socalled character and due to this misunderstanding, which nearly at no time is cleared before entering a "discussion", conflicts of any sort must and do arise and i do know this very well indeed having lived in many traps so many decades.... only due to Grace and constant selfinquiry is it possible to get rid of those manyfolds traps... example what do you mean with character? what for do you need it? and what is the result of using and living by character? all this has to be cleared before entering in a socalled discussion do you know that Sri Ramana Maharshi stated somewhere: discussions are senseless because they always are struggles between ego..... and this is TRUE indeed this is my life experience! and please watch what has been going on in the last milleniums in "humanity" did it help to discuss the problems, have they been solved - really solved..... in Sri Ramana Maharshi michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hello James The ego is the one that THINKS he knows and THINKS he is capable, Consequently the ego becomes the Doer and Enjoyer. Therefore the ego looks to his surroundings with the potential of doing something to gain pleasure. When the surroundings are overwhelming, overpoweing him, the ego becomes the helpless and the miserable. This is conceptual entity that we firmly believe that it it is "me". This is the ego. mourad , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> I'm not being difficult but I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it possible to be direct without quoting from texts? Perhaps I am not yet up to your level.> Muchlove,> James> > > > : mourad_shamel: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:48:41 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> In answer to your question, > I will quote the Gospel of Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden translation). > Part of Logion #13> Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like." Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel." Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher." Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out." > mourad> --> In , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.> mourad> , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> See the most popular videos on the web > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hi Mourad, And what is wrong with that? James From: mourad_shamelDate: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:07:23 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Hello James The ego is the one that THINKS he knows and THINKS he is capable, Consequently the ego becomes the Doer and Enjoyer. Therefore the ego looks to his surroundings with the potential of doing something to gain pleasure. When the surroundings are overwhelming, overpoweing him, the ego becomes the helpless and the miserable. This is conceptual entity that we firmly believe that it it is "me". This is the ego. mourad , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> I'm not being difficult but I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it possible to be direct without quoting from texts? Perhaps I am not yet up to your level.> Muchlove,> James> > > > : mourad_shamel: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:48:41 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> In answer to your question, > I will quote the Gospel of Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden translation). > Part of Logion #13> Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like." Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel." Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher." Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out." > mourad> --> In , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.> mourad> , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> See the most popular videos on the web > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/> Click here for FREE customisable desktop wallpapers. Get them Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hello James Nothing, if you see so. mourad , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> And what is wrong with that?> James> > > > : mourad_shamel: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:07:23 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> The ego is the one that THINKS he knows and THINKS he is capable,> Consequently the ego becomes the Doer and Enjoyer. > Therefore the ego looks to his surroundings with the potential of doing something to gain pleasure.> When the surroundings are overwhelming, overpoweing him, the ego becomes the helpless and the miserable.> This is conceptual entity that we firmly believe that it it is "me".> This is the ego.> mourad> > > , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> I'm not being difficult but I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it possible to be direct without quoting from texts? Perhaps I am not yet up to your level.> Muchlove,> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:48:41 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> In answer to your question, > I will quote the Gospel of Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden translation). > Part of Logion #13> Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like." Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel." Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher." Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out." > mourad> --> In , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.> mourad> , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> See the most popular videos on the web > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Catch up on all the latest celebrity gossip > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 What do you think? From: mourad_shamelDate: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:49:58 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? Hello James Nothing, if you see so. mourad , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> And what is wrong with that?> James> > > > : mourad_shamel: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:07:23 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> The ego is the one that THINKS he knows and THINKS he is capable,> Consequently the ego becomes the Doer and Enjoyer. > Therefore the ego looks to his surroundings with the potential of doing something to gain pleasure.> When the surroundings are overwhelming, overpoweing him, the ego becomes the helpless and the miserable.> This is conceptual entity that we firmly believe that it it is "me".> This is the ego.> mourad> > > , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> I'm not being difficult but I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it possible to be direct without quoting from texts? Perhaps I am not yet up to your level.> Muchlove,> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:48:41 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> In answer to your question, > I will quote the Gospel of Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden translation). > Part of Logion #13> Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like." Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel." Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher." Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out." > mourad> --> In , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.> mourad> , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > - > james cogdell > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ----------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ----------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > > Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> See the most popular videos on the web > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Catch up on all the latest celebrity gossip > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/> Read amazing stories to your kids on Messenger Try it Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Namaste satsang friends, What is the problem with 'ego' if it is known it is not who you are? If it is known it is merely a wave in the Ocean? A reflection of the moon in the still lake? Om Namah Shiva! Soul , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote: > > > What do you think? > > : mourad_shamel: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:49:58 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? > > > > > > Hello James > Nothing, if you see so. > mourad > , james cogdell <cogdelljames@> wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> And what is wrong with that?> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:07:23 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> The ego is the one that THINKS he knows and THINKS he is capable,> Consequently the ego becomes the Doer and Enjoyer. > Therefore the ego looks to his surroundings with the potential of doing something to gain pleasure.> When the surroundings are overwhelming, overpoweing him, the ego becomes the helpless and the miserable.> This is conceptual entity that we firmly believe that it it is " me " .> This is the ego.> mourad> > > , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> I'm not being difficult but I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it possible to be direct without quoting from texts? Perhaps I am not yet up to your level.> Muchlove,> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:48:41 +0000Re: [ - Ramana Guru] Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> In answer to your question, > I will quote the Gospel of Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden translation). > Part of Logion #13> Jesus said to his disciples, " Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like. " Simon Peter said to him, " You are like a righteous angel. " Matthew said to him, " You are like a wise philosopher. " Thomas said to him, " Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like. " Jesus said, " I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out. " > mourad> --> In , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the hazards of this type of living is the first step towards enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is apt to happen.> mourad> , james cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of " history " . What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. " misunderstanding of tongue " i noticed in in the last months or years in every social strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was " eaten up " ...> before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > michael> > > > - > mourad > To: > Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> --- In , " Michael Bindel " michael.bindel@ wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding " Ego " :> > due to my experiences Ego is necessary to " survive " in " world " . Therefore you have at first to recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to " suffer " and only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, look " behind it " - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we practice in daily life (patterns in every way, " even " in " feeling " " loving " and so on) is REALLY that what we want to practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > " Illumination " etc> > what touched me the " most " in this theme is Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like always - that there is in reality no illumination " to achieve " . Because " we are illumination always " , just we " have forgotten it " ....> The expression which touched me was> > by " being born " the curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the " ongoing work " to be done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning occurs you " get " a real CLEAR PICTURE of " whats going on " without intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are practical experiences of " michael bindel " > > b u t everyone has to find out this by his own digging into " himherself " > > regarding CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can realize what " person " means and what SELF is> unclouded by the curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history you will discover that even these differences are " only " at the surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived these " tragedies " HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > ----- Original Message --- -- > james cogdell > > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: [ - Ramana Guru] Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> James> > > > > > -------------------- -------------------------> > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at all to nobody around me and without any " stress " i tamed the horse named " mind " . It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have experienced many socalled extraordinary " happenings " - but few have shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others of the value of being a real " mensch " - of being a real human being and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to discover the " manna " of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > - > james cogdell > To: > Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in Love,> James> > > > > > ------------- ------------------------------> > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: Bhagavad Gita> > > > --- In , " Soul " soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ---------------- ---------------------------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ------------- ------------------------------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54> > > > > > > -------------------------- -------------------> Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! > > > > > ------------------ ---------------------------> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release 23/10/2008 7.54>> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 24/10/2008 18.08> > > > > > > _______________> X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> See the most popular videos on the web > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/>> > > > > > > _______________> Catch up on all the latest celebrity gossip > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/> _______________ > Win an Xbox 360 or £200 Top Shop Vouchers > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454062/direct/01/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Namaste Michaelji. Well said. Idle talk is not productive. Character is an oft used/misused word. I left it undefined, since the spirtual unfoldment is a subjective process. My point is that self- enquiry cannot occur in a vacuum of inactivity. Not while we still have chains of steel and gold tying us to the world. As we make progress, these chains no longer have a hold on us. to make progress we need to be steadfast. Patience, devotion and the grace of God/Guru - is the key. The ego is almost irrelevant in this process (In the sense that it disappears as a side-effect - there is no special focus required). The discipline, strength, fortitude required to see the process through is a function of character. These are words that I've read from wiser ones. Its a philosophy I try to live by. Personally, I can't talk of any progress I may have made. I do know that I'm more at peace today than when I started four years back. My wife says I'm calmer and have simpler wants. I'm confident that I've God/Guru's grace with me and that someday, I'll use the word " I " less often in my thoughts and words:) Rgds Rgds , " Michael Bindel " \ > your sentence is for most " misleading " > > You don't need an ego to live... you need character. > only due to Grace and constant selfinquiry is it possible to get rid of those manyfolds traps... > > example > > what do you mean with character? > what for do you need it? > and what is the result of using and living by character? > > all this has to be cleared before entering in a socalled discussion > > do you know that Sri Ramana Maharshi stated somewhere: > > discussions are senseless because they always are struggles between ego..... > > and this is TRUE indeed this is my life experience! > > and please watch what has been going on in the last milleniums in " humanity " > did it help to discuss the problems, have they been solved - really solved..... > > > in Sri Ramana Maharshi > > > michael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I think thats a chicken or egg question. Its an ongoing process, slowly learning to have a more satwic approach. The process of evolution from Tamas->Rajas->Satwic->Nirgun was an eye- opener, when I read it. I got it from multiple sources. Previously, I believed that status, competition, success, money etc were the only things that mattered. Still a workaholic, but am working on it:) Once I started meditation, I got interested in the science behind it, and read everything I could get my hands on. I loved Ramana Maharshi, Swamy Vivekanand, Ramakrishna Paramahansa and the Sai babas. Rgds , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote: > > > Hi Satish, > I love your 2c!! > But what do you base your argument on? What came first for you, the learning of this psychological ontology (the map), or the actual experience of this evolution (the territory)? > Much Love, > James > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Hi All, So do we need anEgo to live or not? James From: satishvijayanDate: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 04:08:56 +0000Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE? I think thats a chicken or egg question. The evolution from Tamas->Rajas->Satwic->Nirgun was an eye-opener, when I read it. I got it from multiple sources. Previously, I believed that status, competition, success, money etc were the only things that mattered. Still a workaholic, but am working on it:)Once I started meditation, I got interested in the science behind it, and read everything I could get my hands on. I loved Ramana Maharshi, Swamy Vivekanand, Ramakrishna Paramahansa and the Sai babas. Rgds , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Hi Satish,> I love your 2c!!> But what do you base your argument on? What came first for you, the learning of this psychological ontology (the map), or the actual experience of this evolution (the territory)? > Much Love,> James Get the best wallpapers on the Web - FREE. Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Hello Soul What you said is absolutely true. The Problem arises, when I know that I am not the ego, but in every day living I think, behave and react as if I am the ego. This contradiction has to be solved. mourad , "Soul" <soulyoginima wrote:>> Namaste satsang friends,> > What is the problem with 'ego' if it is known it is not who you are?> If it is known it is merely a wave in the Ocean? A reflection of the > moon in the still lake?> > Om Namah Shiva!> > Soul> > > , james cogdell > cogdelljames@ wrote:> >> > > > What do you think?> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 > 19:49:58 +0000Re: Bhagavad > Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > > > > > > > Hello James> > Nothing, if you see so.> > mourad> > , james cogdell > <cogdelljames@> wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> And what is wrong with that?> > James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 > 18:07:23 +0000Re: Bhagavad > Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> The ego is > the one that THINKS he knows and THINKS he is capable,> Consequently > the ego becomes the Doer and Enjoyer. > Therefore the ego looks to > his surroundings with the potential of doing something to gain > pleasure.> When the surroundings are overwhelming, overpoweing him, > the ego becomes the helpless and the miserable.> This is conceptual > entity that we firmly believe that it it is "me".> This is the ego.> > mourad> > > , james cogdell > cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> I'm not being difficult but I > really don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it possible to > be direct without quoting from texts? Perhaps I am not yet up to your > level.> Muchlove,> James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: > Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:48:41 +0000Re: [ - Ramana > Guru] Bhagavad Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello > James> In answer to your question, > I will quote the Gospel of > Thomas (Of the Naag Hamadi library, discovered in Egypt 1945; Lambden > translation). > Part of Logion #13> Jesus said to his > disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like." Simon > Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel." Matthew said to > him, "You are like a wise philosopher." Thomas said to him, "Master, > my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like." Jesus > said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become > intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out." > > mourad> --> In , james cogdell > cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Mourad,> How do you define Sri Ramana?> > James> > > > @: mourad_shamel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 > 20:50:48 +0000Re: Bhagavad > Gita, DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Hello James> All > definitions will take man nowhere. You know what the ego is. > The > conditioned reality, which is our egoic way of living, springs from > man's egoic outlook to life.> To see, understand and experience the > hazards of this type of living is the first step towards > enlightenment. When the understanding of the hazards of such a > position becomes thoroughly impregnated in man's heart, a change is > apt to happen.> mourad> , james > cogdell cogdelljames@ wrote:>> > Hi Michael,> Sorry, my last > reference to defining the ego was meant for Mourad, not you!!> I am > with you 100% on this one. It is impossible to survive in conditioned > reality without an ego. The problem is that the Ego is often seen as > negative and this is, I think, due to the way it is perceived as > grasping and thus bad. This criticism of the Ego is rather strange; > almost psychological suicide and rather disrespectful and dangerous > because it could lead to the psychological distress of someone who is > at odds with his or her ego which is, after all, capable of being > healthy and positive. And the Ego is by nature grasping because the > conditioned world is contingent and for an individual to be > successful in the world (and Sri Ramana was successful in the world) > he or she needs to protect themselves physically and emotionally > otherwise they would suffer emotional disintergration. Also, if you > think closely about this, there would indeed be no Moksha without the > Ego. The ego is the diving board from which we dive into the Divine > space of the Void. It is a part of the binary associated with all > Materialist schools, Mimansa, etc, which attributes a duality in > nature between body and soul, or whatever other terminology you would > like to use. The ego is instrinsically apart of the desire(grasping?) > after Liberation which, if we are brutally honest, we are all doing > unsuccessfully. So the ego is not something that should be > extinguished but something that should be used on the journey and > understood; not forcefully obliterated or suppressed. > Love> James > > > > > @: michael.bindel@: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:11:59 > +0200Re: Bhagavad Gita, DO I > NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > > > Dear Mourad> > there seems to be a > kind of common misunderstanding; common at this time of "history". > What we mean and what we say does not arrive in the right manner.... > and this is even prophecised in the BIBLE. "misunderstanding of > tongue" i noticed in in the last months or years in every social > strata...> > Regarding your comment> > of course SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI > after his death-experience was Egoless. HIS ego was "eaten up"...> > before this time - something else. You realize this by reading his > others accounts of his early years.> > What i meant was: at first the > ego has to be lived, accepted and put in practice and only thru > reflections you might - with Grace - realize the role of Ego....> > > Hoping to have cleared the misunderstanding> > > in His Grace> > > michael> > > > - > mourad > > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 > 2:41 PM> Re: Bhagavad Gita, > DO I NEED AN EGO TO LIVE?> > > > Dear Friend Michael> If I think -for > a single moment- that Sri Ramana Mahrshi had an ego necessary for his > survival, I would be definetly at fault. SRI RAMANA WAS EGOLESS > My > eyes are fixed -and I think everyone else in this group- that, with > God's help; the inner position where Sri Ramana IS, I will be also . > > Therefore, I think that a crucial question has to be asked by each > one of us within his own heart: DO I THINK TAHAT I NEED AN EGO TO > LIVE WITH AND continue to SURVIVE?OR NOT? > A question that needs an > urgent answer.> God Bles you all> mourad> > , "Michael Bindel" michael.bindel@ > wrote:>> Dear James> > regarding "Ego":> > due to my experiences Ego > is necessary to "survive" in "world". Therefore you have at first to > recognize it, to develop it, to use and misuse it, to "suffer" and > only afterwards - is spiritual consciousness is mature enough, > look "behind it" - for what it really is.> > learning/unlearning:> > > everything is learned thru patterns we are influenced by> > and again > due to our maturing, someday, we have to check if that what we > practice in daily life (patterns in every way, "even" > in "feelingloving" and so on) is REALLY that what we want to > practice> Out of this ongoing checking results an inner uneasiness > which again we have to check till we find the roots...> > > "Illumination" etc> > what touched me the "most" in this theme is > Sri Ramanas explanation - of course out of his own experience, like > always - that there is in reality no illumination "to achieve". > Because "we are illumination always", just we "have forgotten > it"....> The expression which touched me was> > by "being born" the > curtain of NOKNOWLEDGE falls down and it is the "ongoing work" to be > done to LIFT THIS CURTAIN OF NO KNOWLEDGE> > and this is the > UNLEARNING you ment....> > something else:> > when real unlearning > occurs you "get" a real CLEAR PICTURE of "whats going on" without > intellectual knowledge YOU KNOW fullpoint without the need for > proving it and discussing it> > that is meant when stating as soon as > you really are in the KNOWN you can throw overboard all books all > knowledge all holy scripures> > Dear unknown friend this are > practical experiences of "michael bindel"> > b u t everyone has to > find out this by his own digging into "himherself"> > regarding > CONCEPTS> > normal thinking (without the link to real intuition) > needs concepts> therefore we have to get to know the worthness of > normal thinking and where to use orand not to use it> it is meant for > normal activity only. But this again, as Sri Ramana stated so often, > and has to be experienced by the seeker in his own way, functions > automatically like a robot - if we let it BE> > to let it be we have > to SURRENDER completely without exception> but this is another theme > on the way - but absolute necessary> because only then you can > realize what "person" means and what SELF is> unclouded by the > curtain of noknowledge again...> > regarding WESTERNERS NOWESTERNERS> > > if you look thoroughly at actual life around the world and history > you will discover that even these differences are "only" at the > surface> > and as long as you logically attach your attention at this > surface you are entrapped> > because behind these cultural religious > and other so called differences its all the same otherwise it would > not be possible that in all socalled cultures all sort of massacres > are happening all the time> meaning that whatever cultural robe you > wear if the essence of all real culture is not lived > these "tragedies" HAVE TO occur> > and therefore i with deep love > suggest that you start really digging into the eternal wisdom of the > lived realization by SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI start with any book you are > drawn to and immedeately check your actual concepts with those > eternal TRUTH> > all of us who really strife for PRACTICING in daily > life our inner knowledge will be of assistance to you....> > and > please take into account - as a real beginning on this path - that > the theoretical statement that WE ARE NOT THE DOER THE DOER IS ONLY > THE SELF is true> > awaiting your esteemed reflections> > your > brother on the way> > > michael bindel> > > ----- Original Message ---> -- > james cogdell > > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:02 AM> RE: [ - > Ramana Guru] Bhagavad Gita> > > Dear Michael,> Thankyou so much for > your answer. As I have just said to Alan, I have a lot of unlearning > to do, in a way, and I am just becoming aware of how strong my ego is > and how it clings onto things, concepts, etc. I have meditated and > experienced that sense of falling through.....I can't explain what I > was falling through but it does seem like a falling away of anything > at all. An extraordinarily terrifying experience that I perhaps need > to work through instead of pulling myself back from. I hope you > understand what I am trying to express. And also as a Westener I > assume that anything worth working towards has to be extremely > complex and difficult to understand!! > Best wishes to you too,> > James> > > > > > --------------------> -------------------------> > > michael.bindel@ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:24:50 +0200> Re: > Bhagavad Gita> > > > Dear James> > as > one who loved to talk and discuss about so many important matters i > discovered during this journey thru this actual life that with words > we do not arrive at the necessary INNER PEACE AND QUIT.> Just some > days ago i was really SILENT for a whole day - did not talk a word at > all to nobody around me and without any "stress" i tamed the horse > named "mind". It was STILLNESS and it was incredible.> I have > experienced many socalled extraordinary "happenings" - but few have > shown me whats all about.> BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GD> > and > having tried for decades thru talking and living to convince others > of the value of being a real "mensch" - of being a real human being > and discovered that misunderstood words are the root of so many > troubles, war and so on.> > Wishing you all the best - try to > discover the "manna" of being STILL.> > in Sri Ramana> > > michael> > > - > james cogdell > > > Thursday, October 23, 2008 > 8:53 PM> RE: Bhagavad Gita> > > > Hi Soul,> I'm afraid I don't agree with you, with love of course. > > It is only through language that liberation means anything at all. I > mentioned in an email to Alan that there is a paradox between silence > and text, and if by text we not only mean the written text but also > the spoken word as text then what you are saying highlights that > paradox. Ultimately, are you suggesting that language is a hindrance > or a source of liberation? Are you suggesting that the experience of > liberation is unmediated by which I mean an experience which has no > expression. How is it possible to know this? How on earth can we talk > about silence being the source of liberation. I am of course a great > admirer of Ramana Maharshi, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not > here to dispute His reality; but if I am to experience liberation, > what is the point of it? Does it exist outside of the body as a kind > of transcendental Idealism? Or is liberation simply what we as > individuals gesture towards; a sort of hope for purity. I confess to > not knowing this, which for me is an ok place to be. > Yours in > Love,> James> > > > > > -------------> ------------------------------> > > yosyflug@ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:06:41 +0000> Re: > Bhagavad Gita> > > > > , "Soul" soulyoginima@ wrote:> >> > One > needs not to know sanskrit for liberation, > > or any language for > that matter...> > only Silence...> > Ahhhh...> > > > Namaste,> > > Soul> > > > > > there is only one nation - the nation of > humanity.> there is only one language - the language of the heart.> > there is only one religion - the religion of love.> there is only one > teacher – life itself.> and god/truth/love is one without a second - > timeless > and omnipresent.> > BOOM!> yosy> > > > > > ----------------> ---------------------------> Get the > best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. 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Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 ,Dear friends, In my opinion 1. The ego is naturally formed by Consciousness identifying with the mind and body at an early age, and at this stage it is necessary in order to live. 2. When the ego becomes mature and starts to see through the charade of life, its most intelligent part, intellectual discrimination, starts seeking for a solution to its life of rare joys and more frequent suffering. 3. Through Grace it eventually comes into touch with this Teaching and then becomes the spring board for diving into the heart searching for its own source, or mistaken identity as a separate egotistic individual. 4. After Self Realisation the ego is consumed in the Heart . The Jnani then lives from the Self which contains the attributes of intelligence, discrimination, dispassion and unconditional love . 5.He now lives from what is termed the 'no mind state' i.e. the non egotistic state, quite satisfactorily in the apparant world, egolessly. The ego is then not needed to live, nor is it available. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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