Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote: > > > Thankyou Michael and peace be with you too, > I am struggling, I know, but it is a fruitful struggle and coming to terms with my own level is a part of the process and I can't think of a better place to be with more understanding people. > James > > yes. peace emerges out of struggle, james my friend... and really, patience is all the power a wo/man needs. a little poem you may like (from " BOOM! " ); Thorny Words bless you, oh beloved, for inspiring the words of the wise without which i could not discard all words like thorns removing thorns… and for ever after to melt and to dissolve within your ever-present silent loving laughter. oh beloved, bless you a million times for revealing to the simple what is concealed forever from the intelligent and clever! good luck, _()_ yosy > > : michael.bindel: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:04:46 +0100Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals! > > > > > > Peace with you > James > > " what other means of knowing... " > > of course NOT with the conceptual " mind " - but only with the " higher intuition " (intuition plus higher mind) > > only with this " tool " , at the right " moment " , when you as a " person " are mature enough to " grasp " it you will really KNOW and " feel " with all your being the " Divine " > > " " are used because this terms depends on your personal understanding > > at first i would in your position check with all your ability (at that moment) to define whatever you understand under a certain " word " - which meaning you yourself has given to it > than check what others understand by using these terms > > by the way > > all my explanations are born out of inner experience, not by books > books - as our friend yossi stated so wonderful - are just helping tools on the way > at the moment you really understand " something " you do not need them any more and no further explanations for others are needed > > instead of socalled knowledge - look at the situation in your personal life, in your personal world, in the world at large! you will see the fruits of this socalled knowledge which is instead ignorence per se, its like the building of the tower of babel in the jewish bible! - i prefer the expression curtain of noknowledge > > yours sincerely > > michael > > > - > james cogdell > > Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:09 PM > RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals! > > > Hi Jill,Thanks. I can always do with a hug!! This all just seems like playing around with words, that's all. How on earth can you discover the Divine without using the mind, if the Divine exists ofcourse, which I honestly doubt. The Divine seems to be what Peter called a 'conceptual tool' and is also what Alan Jacobs has called an 'umbrella term' which to me means that it can be spread about abit to mean just about anything, like the touching of the 'Divine' when you blow yourself up to become a martyr, etc, etc.....or when you paint something and feel that you are entering another realm; or when you read a poem or listen to a piece of music that moves you to tears. The Divine is not sui generis. What other modes of knowing are there that do not require a mind?LoveJames > > : eggersj: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:32:22 - 0500Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals! > > > Dear James and Peter, > > Peter, thanks for your earlier post. It was a very thoughtful response to James' ideas. I enjoyed reading it. > > James, for some reason when I read your posts I always want to give you a big hug. You are indeed a skeptic but with such an ardent wish to examine even your own skepticism in search of deeper understanding. After reading your post yesterday I got the image that to use the mind to understand the divine is like using scissors to dig a hole. While out running in the woods this morning, I thought about Peter likening the mind to consciousness. I conceive of the mind as something that emerges from consciousness, an arising of activity within the field of consciousness. Consciousness is the empty screen, mind the projections/activity on the screen that obscures it. We tend to place our sense of identity with the mind-- we think we are our minds. But we aren't. It's very difficult to relinquish this identification and the illusion of control it gives us. Modes of knowing that do not require or engage language are not e ncouraged in the culture. Even when these ways of knowing become part of one's experience, they may be dismissed by the linear, thinking mind as unreal, until they are established in a way that makes dismissing them impossible. > > David Hawkins writes about the ego and enlightenment in ways that I find very useful; you might like some of his books. " I: Reality and Subjectivity " , and " DIscovery of the Presence of God " , are both good ones. > > Jill > > > > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 10:24 AM, james cogdell wrote: > > > > > Dear Peter,Thankyou so much for your post. I think deep down I am struggling here because I cannot understand how it is possible to know something without recourse to language. This is basic for me and I cannot ignore it. I have had experiences during meditation practice (formless meditation) that I find difficult to describe. However, they need to be described. For my own benefit, it is of no use to me to have to say that I do not know what I mean; that I cannot describe something. The idea of ineffability is a dead one; it communicates absolutely nothing and leaves a conversation flat. Conversations of that nature tend to end in a knowing smile, a real contradiction. My contention is that all of these experiences during whatever kind of meditation we do are conscious manipulations that produce chemical reactions in the body. We are like vessels that have the potential for many things and we can, once we have come to know our minds, use them for whatever we want. I am a total skeptic and perhaps, as has already been mentioned, do not belong here, but I need to discuss these things in order to understand.RegardsJames > > : not_2: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:14:19 +0000RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals! > > > Dear James,I'm not sure if these reflections will be of any help with the currentquestion. For what they are worth...I don't find the term " ego " is a very useful one. I say this from mybackground as someone following a spiritual path for many years and as asomeone working as psychotherapist for the last 20+ years with many peoplefor whom spirituality is an important concern in their lives. 'A sense ofindividuality' is a phrase that works better for me and has more resonancewith lived experience. The term " ego " is really just a conceptual toolvariously described and used by different disciplines - psychological andspiritual. In spiritual parlance it's often used with such negativity that,in my view, as a negatively loaded concept it more likely hinders ratherthan helps people make sense of their lived experience and the connectionbetween their 'sense of individuality' and the sense of connnec tedness tothe whole (or one- ness). It helps me if I put these things in simple terms. Thus: - In vedanta we call that 'sense of individuality' the jiva.- We call the underlying one-ness of life Brahman.- The recognition of the identity between the sense of individuality and theunderlying one-ness of life we call jnana or moksha (enlightenment,liberation).- The spiritual path (sadhana) is a concerted effort to uncover thatrecogntion.This " recognition " isn't straight forward. It takes many forms and may beof various levels of intensity and duration. It may be intuitive, afleeting glimpse, a formless conviction; it may be a momentary yet profoundexperience of 'other-ness', of one-ness, of the core of one's being of suchan intensity that it changes one's life thereafter. These are just a veryfew example s. In vedanta, someone who is fully established in that recognition is called abrahma-nishta, or jnani. In the kind of intense experiences which are transient the person mightretain 'a sense of individuality' during the process of recognition. Inwhich case the individual might report being in the presence of a higherpower, of feeling a part of the oneness of all life & so on. There are alsoexperiences where 'the sense of individuality' disolves - at leasttemporarily. But when it does re-emerge the outlook on life may never bethe same again. These experiences can be found in the different kinds ofsamadhi.I agree with you in one sense when you say it is all in the mind, if by mindwe consciousness. For one of the factors in common with what we callmystical experience is that we discover something which has alwa ys beenpresent. That's what makes such experiences profound and potentially lifechanging as we discover that underneath our lives of pleasure and suffering,of separateness and grasping, there is a much deeper substratum of knowingand being which is not defiled by outer appearances. It is certainly true that one aspect of human nature is wishful thinkingbased upon the desire for happiness and security. However, in itself thatis not sufficient to deny the existence of the underlying substratum. Onemight as well claim the sun only rises in the morning because people areafraid of the dark and desirous of light.To mention another context...In the early days of western psychology, psychologists and therapists weretotally preoccupied with definitions of pathology and what made people sick.Then people like Maslow (the founder of Humanistic Psychology) came along int he 1940s and decided to explore what helped people to be healthy, selfactualised, human beings. Psychological research along these lines showedthat 'self actualised' people often report experiences of love, wholeness,creativity, a profound sense of truth, justice, authenticity & so on. Theseexperiences of self actualised people were called " peak experiences " . Butit wasn't long before their research showed that there was a whole level andrange of experiencing and knowing that transcended the usual models ofpersonality and ego psychology. In other words there was a range ofexperience of unity, love, compassion that couldn't simply be reduced toeither ego needs or ego development. Hence Transpersonal Psychology tookbirth (in the 1960s). The term " trans " refers to those states ofconsciousness and being that transcend 'ego' and personality. There is veryinteresting research in this field for those who wish to follow it up.< BR>In the field of psychology, probably the earliest pioneers in the field ofthe 'transpersonal' were Richard Bucke and William James who wereresearching the nature of spiritual (mystic) experience back in the verylate 1800s - before even the birth of Humanistic Psychology. William Jamesfound four core factors in common with spiritual experiences regardless ofthe background and religion of the person. While this touches a topic fartoo big to do justice to via email, and much more systematic research hasbeen carried out since William James' time, it may be relevant to mentionwhat the four core factors are:1. Ineffability - the experiences were too great to be expressed in wordsand thus had to be experienced directly as their meaning could not beimparted to others.2. Noetic - such experiences involved an experience of knowing, of havingdirect access to knowledge otherwise unobtainable to the discursiveintellect.3. Transiency - except in rare cases such experience is not maintained.4. Passivity - the individual feels their own will is in abeyance, perhapseven feeling they were grasped or held by a superior power.James, my own sense is that we each have to follow the path that emerges outof what is most meaningful to ourselves rather than in relation to thebelief systems and far from perfect understanding / experiences of others.May you do the former with great success.Best wishes,Peter________________________________ On Behalf Of james cogdell01 November 2008 23:07To: : RE: Re: Fw: What happenswhen the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!Hi Michael,The point I am trying to make is that the Divine is just another aspect ofEgo. I can't understand why it is being separated from Ego in thisdiscussion. Everything that happens in our minds is everything that there isand it is all Ego. <snip> > > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! > > > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1762 - Release 02/11/2008 9.51 _______________ > Win an Xbox 360 or £200 Top Shop Vouchers > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454062/direct/01/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Great!!! James From: yosyflugDate: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:47:53 +0000Re: What happens... , james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote:>> > Thankyou Michael and peace be with you too,> I am struggling, I know, but it is a fruitful struggle and coming to terms with my own level is a part of the process and I can't think of a better place to be with more understanding people.> James> > yes. peace emerges out of struggle, james my friend... and really, patience is all the power a wo/man needs. a little poem you may like (from "BOOM!");Thorny Words bless you, oh beloved,for inspiring the words of the wisewithout which i could notdiscard all wordslike thorns removing thorns…and for ever afterto melt and to dissolvewithin your ever-presentsilentlovinglaughter.oh beloved,bless you a million timesfor revealing to the simplewhat is concealedforeverfrom the intelligentand clever!good luck, _()_yosy> > : michael.bindel: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:04:46 +0100Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > > > > Peace with you > James> > "what other means of knowing..."> > of course NOT with the conceptual "mind" - but only with the "higher intuition" (intuition plus higher mind)> > only with this "tool", at the right "moment", when you as a "person" are mature enough to "grasp" it you will really KNOW and "feel" with all your being the "Divine"> > "" are used because this terms depends on your personal understanding> > at first i would in your position check with all your ability (at that moment) to define whatever you understand under a certain "word" - which meaning you yourself has given to it> than check what others understand by using these terms> > by the way> > all my explanations are born out of inner experience, not by books> books - as our friend yossi stated so wonderful - are just helping tools on the way> at the moment you really understand "something" you do not need them any more and no further explanations for others are needed> > instead of socalled knowledge - look at the situation in your personal life, in your personal world, in the world at large! you will see the fruits of this socalled knowledge which is instead ignorence per se, its like the building of the tower of babel in the jewish bible! - i prefer the expression curtain of noknowledge> > yours sincerely> > michael> > > - > james cogdell > > Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:09 PM> RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Hi Jill,Thanks. I can always do with a hug!! This all just seems like playing around with words, that's all. How on earth can you discover the Divine without using the mind, if the Divine exists ofcourse, which I honestly doubt. The Divine seems to be what Peter called a 'conceptual tool' and is also what Alan Jacobs has called an 'umbrella term' which to me means that it can be spread about abit to mean just about anything, like the touching of the 'Divine' when you blow yourself up to become a martyr, etc, etc.....or when you paint something and feel that you are entering another realm; or when you read a poem or listen to a piece of music that moves you to tears. The Divine is not sui generis. What other modes of knowing are there that do not require a mind?LoveJames> > : eggersj: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:32:22 -0500Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James and Peter, > > Peter, thanks for your earlier post. It was a very thoughtful response to James' ideas. I enjoyed reading it. > > James, for some reason when I read your posts I always want to give you a big hug. You are indeed a skeptic but with such an ardent wish to examine even your own skepticism in search of deeper understanding. After reading your post yesterday I got the image that to use the mind to understand the divine is like using scissors to dig a hole. While out running in the woods this morning, I thought about Peter likening the mind to consciousness. I conceive of the mind as something that emerges from consciousness, an arising of activity within the field of consciousness. Consciousness is the empty screen, mind the projections/activity on the screen that obscures it. We tend to place our sense of identity with the mind--we think we are our minds. But we aren't. It's very difficult to relinquish this identification and the illusion of control it gives us. Modes of knowing that do not require or engage language are not e ncouraged in the culture. Even when these ways of knowing become part of one's experience, they may be dismissed by the linear, thinking mind as unreal, until they are established in a way that makes dismissing them impossible. > > David Hawkins writes about the ego and enlightenment in ways that I find very useful; you might like some of his books. "I: Reality and Subjectivity", and "DIscovery of the Presence of God", are both good ones.> > Jill> > > > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 10:24 AM, james cogdell wrote:> > > > > Dear Peter,Thankyou so much for your post. I think deep down I am struggling here because I cannot understand how it is possible to know something without recourse to language. This is basic for me and I cannot ignore it. I have had experiences during meditation practice (formless meditation) that I find difficult to describe. However, they need to be described. For my own benefit, it is of no use to me to have to say that I do not know what I mean; that I cannot describe something. The idea of ineffability is a dead one; it communicates absolutely nothing and leaves a conversation flat. Conversations of that nature tend to end in a knowing smile, a real contradiction. My contention is that all of these experiences during whatever kind of meditation we do are conscious manipulations that produce chemical reactions in the body. We are like vessels that have the potential for many things and we can, once we have come to know our minds, use them for whatever we want. I am a total skeptic and perhaps, as has already been mentioned, do not belong here, but I need to discuss these things in order to understand.RegardsJames > > : not_2: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:14:19 +0000RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James,I'm not sure if these reflections will be of any help with the currentquestion. For what they are worth...I don't find the term "ego" is a very useful one. I say this from mybackground as someone following a spiritual path for many years and as asomeone working as psychotherapist for the last 20+ years with many peoplefor whom spirituality is an important concern in their lives. 'A sense ofindividuality' is a phrase that works better for me and has more resonancewith lived experience. The term "ego" is really just a conceptual toolvariously described and used by different disciplines -psychological andspiritual. In spiritual parlance it's often used with such negativity that,in my view, as a negatively loaded concept it more likely hinders ratherthan helps people make sense of their lived experience and the connectionbetween their 'sense of individuality' and the sense of connnec tedness tothe whole (or one-ness). It helps me if I put these things in simple terms. Thus: - In vedanta we call that 'sense of individuality' the jiva.- We call the underlying one-ness of life Brahman.- The recognition of the identity between the sense of individuality and theunderlying one-ness of life we call jnana or moksha (enlightenment,liberation).- The spiritual path (sadhana) is a concerted effort to uncover thatrecogntion.This "recognition" isn't straight forward. It takes many forms and may beof various levels of intensity and duration. It may be intuitive, afleeting glimpse, a formless conviction; it may be a momentary yet profoundexperience of 'other-ness', of one-ness, of the core of one's being of suchan intensity that it changes one's life thereafter. These are just a veryfew example s. In vedanta, someone who is fully established in that recognition is called abrahma-nishta, or jnani. In the kind of intense experiences which are transient the person mightretain 'a sense of individuality' during the process of recognition. Inwhich case the individual might report being in the presence of a higherpower, of feeling a part of the oneness of all life & so on. There are alsoexperiences where 'the sense of individuality' disolves - at leasttemporarily. But when it does re-emerge the outlook on life may never bethe same again. These experiences can be found in the different kinds ofsamadhi.I agree with you in one sense when you say it is all in the mind, if by mindwe consciousness. For one of the factors in common with what we callmystical experience is that we discover something which has alwa ys beenpresent. That's what makes such experiences profound and potentially lifechanging as we discover that underneath our lives of pleasure and suffering,of separateness and grasping, there is a much deeper substratum of knowingand being which is not defiled by outer appearances. It is certainly true that one aspect of human nature is wishful thinkingbased upon the desire for happiness and security. However, in itself thatis not sufficient to deny the existence of the underlying substratum. Onemight as well claim the sun only rises in the morning because people areafraid of the dark and desirous of light.To mention another context...In the early days of western psychology, psychologists and therapists weretotally preoccupied with definitions of pathology and what made people sick.Then people like Maslow (the founder of Humanistic Psychology) came along int he 1940s and decided to explore what helped people to be healthy, selfactualised, human beings. Psychological research along these lines showedthat 'self actualised' people often report experiences of love, wholeness,creativity, a profound sense of truth, justice, authenticity & so on. Theseexperiences of self actualised people were called "peak experiences". Butit wasn't long before their research showed that there was a whole level andrange of experiencing and knowing that transcended the usual models ofpersonality and ego psychology. In other words there was a range ofexperience of unity, love, compassion that couldn't simply be reduced toeither ego needs or ego development. Hence Transpersonal Psychology tookbirth (in the 1960s). The term "trans" refers to those states ofconsciousness and being that transcend 'ego' and personality. There is veryinteresting research in this field for those who wish to follow it up.< BR>In the field of psychology, probably the earliest pioneers in the field ofthe 'transpersonal' were Richard Bucke and William James who wereresearching the nature of spiritual (mystic) experience back in the verylate 1800s - before even the birth of Humanistic Psychology. William Jamesfound four core factors in common with spiritual experiences regardless ofthe background and religion of the person. While this touches a topic fartoo big to do justice to via email, and much more systematic research hasbeen carried out since William James' time, it may be relevant to mentionwhat the four core factors are:1. Ineffability - the experiences were too great to be expressed in wordsand thus had to be experienced directly as their meaning could not beimparted to others.2. Noetic - such experiences involved an experience of knowing, of havingdirect access to knowledge otherwise unobtainable to the discursiveintellect.3. Transiency - except in rare cases such experience is not maintained.4. Passivity - the individual feels their own will is in abeyance, perhapseven feeling they were grasped or held by a superior power.James, my own sense is that we each have to follow the path that emerges outof what is most meaningful to ourselves rather than in relation to thebelief systems and far from perfect understanding / experiences of others.May you do the former with great success.Best wishes,Peter________________________________ On Behalf Of james cogdell01 November 2008 23:07: RE: Re: Fw: What happenswhen the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!Hi Michael,The point I am trying to make is that the Divine is just another aspect ofEgo. I can't understand why it is being separated from Ego in thisdiscussion. Everything that happens in our minds is everything that there isand it is all Ego. <snip>> > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here!> > > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1762 - Release 02/11/2008 9.51> > > > > > > ________> Win an Xbox 360 or £200 Top Shop Vouchers > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454062/direct/01/> Click here for FREE customisable desktop wallpapers. Get them Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Dear James, I was delighted to read you are staying with us. Your postings are valued and appreciated. All very best wishes and regards, Alan --- On Sun, 2/11/08, james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote: james cogdell <cogdelljamesRE: What happens... Date: Sunday, 2 November, 2008, 8:58 PM Great!!!James yosyflug (AT) isdn (DOT) net.ilSun, 2 Nov 2008 20:47:53 +0000Re: What happens... , james cogdell <cogdelljames@ ...> wrote:>> > Thankyou Michael and peace be with you too,> I am struggling, I know, but it is a fruitful struggle and coming to terms with my own level is a part of the process and I can't think of a better place to be with more understanding people.> James> > yes. peace emerges out of struggle, james my friend... and really, patience is all the power a wo/man needs. a little poem you may like (from "BOOM!");Thorny Words bless you, oh beloved,for inspiring the words of the wisewithout which i could notdiscard all wordslike thorns removing thorns…and for ever afterto melt and to dissolvewithin your ever-presentsilentlovinglaughter.oh beloved,bless you a million timesfor revealing to the simplewhat is concealedforeverfrom the intelligentand clever!good luck, _()_yosy> > @ ...: michael.bindel@ ...: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:04:46 +0100Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > > > > Peace with you > James> > "what other means of knowing..."> > of course NOT with the conceptual "mind" - but only with the "higher intuition" (intuition plus higher mind)> > only with this "tool", at the right "moment", when you as a "person" are mature enough to "grasp" it you will really KNOW and "feel" with all your being the "Divine"> > "" are used because this terms depends on your personal understanding> > at first i would in your position check with all your ability (at that moment) to define whatever you understand under a certain "word" - which meaning you yourself has given to it> than check what others understand by using these terms> > by the way> > all my explanations are born out of inner experience, not by books> books - as our friend yossi stated so wonderful - are just helping tools on the way> at the moment you really understand "something" you do not need them any more and no further explanations for others are needed> > instead of socalled knowledge - look at the situation in your personal life, in your personal world, in the world at large! you will see the fruits of this socalled knowledge which is instead ignorence per se, its like the building of the tower of babel in the jewish bible! - i prefer the expression curtain of noknowledge> > yours sincerely> > michael> > > - > james cogdell > > Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:09 PM> RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Hi Jill,Thanks. I can always do with a hug!! This all just seems like playing around with words, that's all. How on earth can you discover the Divine without using the mind, if the Divine exists ofcourse, which I honestly doubt. The Divine seems to be what Peter called a 'conceptual tool' and is also what Alan Jacobs has called an 'umbrella term' which to me means that it can be spread about abit to mean just about anything, like the touching of the 'Divine' when you blow yourself up to become a martyr, etc, etc.....or when you paint something and feel that you are entering another realm; or when you read a poem or listen to a piece of music that moves you to tears. The Divine is not sui generis. What other modes of knowing are there that do not require a mind?LoveJames> > @ ...: eggersj: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:32:22 -0500Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James and Peter, > > Peter, thanks for your earlier post. It was a very thoughtful response to James' ideas. I enjoyed reading it. > > James, for some reason when I read your posts I always want to give you a big hug. You are indeed a skeptic but with such an ardent wish to examine even your own skepticism in search of deeper understanding. After reading your post yesterday I got the image that to use the mind to understand the divine is like using scissors to dig a hole. While out running in the woods this morning, I thought about Peter likening the mind to consciousness. I conceive of the mind as something that emerges from consciousness, an arising of activity within the field of consciousness. Consciousness is the empty screen, mind the projections/ activity on the screen that obscures it. We tend to place our sense of identity with the mind--we think we are our minds. But we aren't. It's very difficult to relinquish this identification and the illusion of control it gives us. Modes of knowing that do not require or engage language are not e ncouraged in the culture. Even when these ways of knowing become part of one's experience, they may be dismissed by the linear, thinking mind as unreal, until they are established in a way that makes dismissing them impossible. > > David Hawkins writes about the ego and enlightenment in ways that I find very useful; you might like some of his books. "I: Reality and Subjectivity" , and "DIscovery of the Presence of God", are both good ones.> > Jill> > > > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 10:24 AM, james cogdell wrote:> > > > > Dear Peter,Thankyou so much for your post. I think deep down I am struggling here because I cannot understand how it is possible to know something without recourse to language. This is basic for me and I cannot ignore it. I have had experiences during meditation practice (formless meditation) that I find difficult to describe. However, they need to be described. For my own benefit, it is of no use to me to have to say that I do not know what I mean; that I cannot describe something. The idea of ineffability is a dead one; it communicates absolutely nothing and leaves a conversation flat. Conversations of that nature tend to end in a knowing smile, a real contradiction. My contention is that all of these experiences during whatever kind of meditation we do are conscious manipulations that produce chemical reactions in the body. We are like vessels that have the potential for many things and we can, once we have come to know our minds, use them for whatever we want. I am a total skeptic and perhaps, as has already been mentioned, do not belong here, but I need to discuss these things in order to understand.RegardsJ ames > > @ ...: not_2: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:14:19 +0000RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James,I'm not sure if these reflections will be of any help with the currentquestion. For what they are worth...I don't find the term "ego" is a very useful one. I say this from mybackground as someone following a spiritual path for many years and as asomeone working as psychotherapist for the last 20+ years with many peoplefor whom spirituality is an important concern in their lives. 'A sense ofindividuality' is a phrase that works better for me and has more resonancewith lived experience. The term "ego" is really just a conceptual toolvariously described and used by different disciplines -psychological andspiritual. In spiritual parlance it's often used with such negativity that,in my view, as a negatively loaded concept it more likely hinders ratherthan helps people make sense of their lived experience and the connectionbetween their 'sense of individuality' and the sense of connnec tedness tothe whole (or one-ness). It helps me if I put these things in simple terms. Thus: - In vedanta we call that 'sense of individuality' the jiva.- We call the underlying one-ness of life Brahman.- The recognition of the identity between the sense of individuality and theunderlying one-ness of life we call jnana or moksha (enlightenment, liberation) .- The spiritual path (sadhana) is a concerted effort to uncover thatrecogntion. This "recognition" isn't straight forward. It takes many forms and may beof various levels of intensity and duration. It may be intuitive, afleeting glimpse, a formless conviction; it may be a momentary yet profoundexperience of 'other-ness' , of one-ness, of the core of one's being of suchan intensity that it changes one's life thereafter. These are just a veryfew example s. In vedanta, someone who is fully established in that recognition is called abrahma-nishta, or jnani. In the kind of intense experiences which are transient the person mightretain 'a sense of individuality' during the process of recognition. Inwhich case the individual might report being in the presence of a higherpower, of feeling a part of the oneness of all life & so on. There are alsoexperiences where 'the sense of individuality' disolves - at leasttemporarily. But when it does re-emerge the outlook on life may never bethe same again. These experiences can be found in the different kinds ofsamadhi.I agree with you in one sense when you say it is all in the mind, if by mindwe consciousness. For one of the factors in common with what we callmystical experience is that we discover something which has alwa ys beenpresent. That's what makes such experiences profound and potentially lifechanging as we discover that underneath our lives of pleasure and suffering,of separateness and grasping, there is a much deeper substratum of knowingand being which is not defiled by outer appearances. It is certainly true that one aspect of human nature is wishful thinkingbased upon the desire for happiness and security. However, in itself thatis not sufficient to deny the existence of the underlying substratum. Onemight as well claim the sun only rises in the morning because people areafraid of the dark and desirous of light.To mention another context...In the early days of western psychology, psychologists and therapists weretotally preoccupied with definitions of pathology and what made people sick.Then people like Maslow (the founder of Humanistic Psychology) came along int he 1940s and decided to explore what helped people to be healthy, selfactualised, human beings. Psychological research along these lines showedthat 'self actualised' people often report experiences of love, wholeness,creativit y, a profound sense of truth, justice, authenticity & so on. Theseexperiences of self actualised people were called "peak experiences" . Butit wasn't long before their research showed that there was a whole level andrange of experiencing and knowing that transcended the usual models ofpersonality and ego psychology. In other words there was a range ofexperience of unity, love, compassion that couldn't simply be reduced toeither ego needs or ego development. Hence Transpersonal Psychology tookbirth (in the 1960s). The term "trans" refers to those states ofconsciousness and being that transcend 'ego' and personality. There is veryinteresting research in this field for those who wish to follow it up.< BR>In the field of psychology, probably the earliest pioneers in the field ofthe 'transpersonal' were Richard Bucke and William James who wereresearching the nature of spiritual (mystic) experience back in the verylate 1800s - before even the birth of Humanistic Psychology. William Jamesfound four core factors in common with spiritual experiences regardless ofthe background and religion of the person. While this touches a topic fartoo big to do justice to via email, and much more systematic research hasbeen carried out since William James' time, it may be relevant to mentionwhat the four core factors are:1. Ineffability - the experiences were too great to be expressed in wordsand thus had to be experienced directly as their meaning could not beimparted to others.2. Noetic - such experiences involved an experience of knowing, of havingdirect access to knowledge otherwise unobtainable to the discursiveintellect .3. Transiency - except in rare cases such experience is not maintained.4. Passivity - the individual feels their own will is in abeyance, perhapseven feeling they were grasped or held by a superior power.James, my own sense is that we each have to follow the path that emerges outof what is most meaningful to ourselves rather than in relation to thebelief systems and far from perfect understanding / experiences of others.May you do the former with great success.Best wishes,Peter_ _________ _________ _________ ____ []On Behalf Of james cogdell01 November 2008 23:07@ ...: RE: Re: Fw: What happenswhen the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!Hi Michael,The point I am trying to make is that the Divine is just another aspect ofEgo. I can't understand why it is being separated from Ego in thisdiscussion. Everything that happens in our minds is everything that there isand it is all Ego. <snip>> > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here!> > > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1762 - Release 02/11/2008 9.51> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Win an Xbox 360 or £200 Top Shop Vouchers > http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 115454062/ direct/01/> Click here for FREE customisable desktop wallpapers. Get them Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Dear Alan, Thankyou for saying that. You mentioned that someone was giving a talk this month in Hampstead; can you remind me? James From: alanadamsjacobsDate: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 02:18:11 +0000RE: What happens... Dear James, I was delighted to read you are staying with us. Your postings are valued and appreciated. All very best wishes and regards, Alan --- On Sun, 2/11/08, james cogdell <cogdelljames (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: james cogdell <cogdelljames (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>RE: What happens... Date: Sunday, 2 November, 2008, 8:58 PM Great!!!James yosyflug (AT) isdn (DOT) net.ilSun, 2 Nov 2008 20:47:53 +0000Re: What happens... , james cogdell <cogdelljames@ ...> wrote:>> > Thankyou Michael and peace be with you too,> I am struggling, I know, but it is a fruitful struggle and coming to terms with my own level is a part of the process and I can't think of a better place to be with more understanding people.> James> > yes. peace emerges out of struggle, james my friend... and really, patience is all the power a wo/man needs. a little poem you may like (from "BOOM!");Thorny Words bless you, oh beloved,for inspiring the words of the wisewithout which i could notdiscard all wordslike thorns removing thorns…and for ever afterto melt and to dissolvewithin your ever-presentsilentlovinglaughter.oh beloved,bless you a million timesfor revealing to the simplewhat is concealedforeverfrom the intelligentand clever!good luck, _()_yosy> > @ ...: michael.bindel@ ...: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:04:46 +0100Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > > > > Peace with you > James> > "what other means of knowing..."> > of course NOT with the conceptual "mind" - but only with the "higher intuition" (intuition plus higher mind)> > only with this "tool", at the right "moment", when you as a "person" are mature enough to "grasp" it you will really KNOW and "feel" with all your being the "Divine"> > "" are used because this terms depends on your personal understanding> > at first i would in your position check with all your ability (at that moment) to define whatever you understand under a certain "word" - which meaning you yourself has given to it> than check what others understand by using these terms> > by the way> > all my explanations are born out of inner experience, not by books> books - as our friend yossi stated so wonderful - are just helping tools on the way> at the moment you really understand "something" you do not need them any more and no further explanations for others are needed> > instead of socalled knowledge - look at the situation in your personal life, in your personal world, in the world at large! you will see the fruits of this socalled knowledge which is instead ignorence per se, its like the building of the tower of babel in the jewish bible! - i prefer the expression curtain of noknowledge> > yours sincerely> > michael> > > - > james cogdell > > Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:09 PM> RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Hi Jill,Thanks. I can always do with a hug!! This all just seems like playing around with words, that's all. How on earth can you discover the Divine without using the mind, if the Divine exists ofcourse, which I honestly doubt. The Divine seems to be what Peter called a 'conceptual tool' and is also what Alan Jacobs has called an 'umbrella term' which to me means that it can be spread about abit to mean just about anything, like the touching of the 'Divine' when you blow yourself up to become a martyr, etc, etc.....or when you paint something and feel that you are entering another realm; or when you read a poem or listen to a piece of music that moves you to tears. The Divine is not sui generis. What other modes of knowing are there that do not require a mind?LoveJames> > @ ...: eggersj: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:32:22 -0500Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James and Peter, > > Peter, thanks for your earlier post. It was a very thoughtful response to James' ideas. I enjoyed reading it. > > James, for some reason when I read your posts I always want to give you a big hug. You are indeed a skeptic but with such an ardent wish to examine even your own skepticism in search of deeper understanding. After reading your post yesterday I got the image that to use the mind to understand the divine is like using scissors to dig a hole. While out running in the woods this morning, I thought about Peter likening the mind to consciousness. I conceive of the mind as something that emerges from consciousness, an arising of activity within the field of consciousness. Consciousness is the empty screen, mind the projections/ activity on the screen that obscures it. We tend to place our sense of identity with the mind--we think we are our minds. But we aren't. It's very difficult to relinquish this identification and the illusion of control it gives us. Modes of knowing that do not require or engage language are not e ncouraged in the culture. Even when these ways of knowing become part of one's experience, they may be dismissed by the linear, thinking mind as unreal, until they are established in a way that makes dismissing them impossible. > > David Hawkins writes about the ego and enlightenment in ways that I find very useful; you might like some of his books. "I: Reality and Subjectivity" , and "DIscovery of the Presence of God", are both good ones.> > Jill> > > > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 10:24 AM, james cogdell wrote:> > > > > Dear Peter,Thankyou so much for your post. I think deep down I am struggling here because I cannot understand how it is possible to know something without recourse to language. This is basic for me and I cannot ignore it. I have had experiences during meditation practice (formless meditation) that I find difficult to describe. However, they need to be described. For my own benefit, it is of no use to me to have to say that I do not know what I mean; that I cannot describe something. The idea of ineffability is a dead one; it communicates absolutely nothing and leaves a conversation flat. Conversations of that nature tend to end in a knowing smile, a real contradiction. My contention is that all of these experiences during whatever kind of meditation we do are conscious manipulations that produce chemical reactions in the body. We are like vessels that have the potential for many things and we can, once we have come to know our minds, use them for whatever we want. I am a total skeptic and perhaps, as has already been mentioned, do not belong here, but I need to discuss these things in order to understand.RegardsJ ames > > @ ...: not_2: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:14:19 +0000RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James,I'm not sure if these reflections will be of any help with the currentquestion. For what they are worth...I don't find the term "ego" is a very useful one. I say this from mybackground as someone following a spiritual path for many years and as asomeone working as psychotherapist for the last 20+ years with many peoplefor whom spirituality is an important concern in their lives. 'A sense ofindividuality' is a phrase that works better for me and has more resonancewith lived experience. The term "ego" is really just a conceptual toolvariously described and used by different disciplines -psychological andspiritual. In spiritual parlance it's often used with such negativity that,in my view, as a negatively loaded concept it more likely hinders ratherthan helps people make sense of their lived experience and the connectionbetween their 'sense of individuality' and the sense of connnec tedness tothe whole (or one-ness). It helps me if I put these things in simple terms. Thus: - In vedanta we call that 'sense of individuality' the jiva.- We call the underlying one-ness of life Brahman.- The recognition of the identity between the sense of individuality and theunderlying one-ness of life we call jnana or moksha (enlightenment, liberation) .- The spiritual path (sadhana) is a concerted effort to uncover thatrecogntion. This "recognition" isn't straight forward. It takes many forms and may beof various levels of intensity and duration. It may be intuitive, afleeting glimpse, a formless conviction; it may be a momentary yet profoundexperience of 'other-ness' , of one-ness, of the core of one's being of suchan intensity that it changes one's life thereafter. These are just a veryfew example s. In vedanta, someone who is fully established in that recognition is called abrahma-nishta, or jnani. In the kind of intense experiences which are transient the person mightretain 'a sense of individuality' during the process of recognition. Inwhich case the individual might report being in the presence of a higherpower, of feeling a part of the oneness of all life & so on. There are alsoexperiences where 'the sense of individuality' disolves - at leasttemporarily. But when it does re-emerge the outlook on life may never bethe same again. These experiences can be found in the different kinds ofsamadhi.I agree with you in one sense when you say it is all in the mind, if by mindwe consciousness. For one of the factors in common with what we callmystical experience is that we discover something which has alwa ys beenpresent. That's what makes such experiences profound and potentially lifechanging as we discover that underneath our lives of pleasure and suffering,of separateness and grasping, there is a much deeper substratum of knowingand being which is not defiled by outer appearances. It is certainly true that one aspect of human nature is wishful thinkingbased upon the desire for happiness and security. However, in itself thatis not sufficient to deny the existence of the underlying substratum. Onemight as well claim the sun only rises in the morning because people areafraid of the dark and desirous of light.To mention another context...In the early days of western psychology, psychologists and therapists weretotally preoccupied with definitions of pathology and what made people sick.Then people like Maslow (the founder of Humanistic Psychology) came along int he 1940s and decided to explore what helped people to be healthy, selfactualised, human beings. Psychological research along these lines showedthat 'self actualised' people often report experiences of love, wholeness,creativit y, a profound sense of truth, justice, authenticity & so on. Theseexperiences of self actualised people were called "peak experiences" . Butit wasn't long before their research showed that there was a whole level andrange of experiencing and knowing that transcended the usual models ofpersonality and ego psychology. In other words there was a range ofexperience of unity, love, compassion that couldn't simply be reduced toeither ego needs or ego development. Hence Transpersonal Psychology tookbirth (in the 1960s). The term "trans" refers to those states ofconsciousness and being that transcend 'ego' and personality. There is veryinteresting research in this field for those who wish to follow it up.< BR>In the field of psychology, probably the earliest pioneers in the field ofthe 'transpersonal' were Richard Bucke and William James who wereresearching the nature of spiritual (mystic) experience back in the verylate 1800s - before even the birth of Humanistic Psychology. William Jamesfound four core factors in common with spiritual experiences regardless ofthe background and religion of the person. While this touches a topic fartoo big to do justice to via email, and much more systematic research hasbeen carried out since William James' time, it may be relevant to mentionwhat the four core factors are:1. Ineffability - the experiences were too great to be expressed in wordsand thus had to be experienced directly as their meaning could not beimparted to others.2. Noetic - such experiences involved an experience of knowing, of havingdirect access to knowledge otherwise unobtainable to the discursiveintellect .3. Transiency - except in rare cases such experience is not maintained.4. Passivity - the individual feels their own will is in abeyance, perhapseven feeling they were grasped or held by a superior power.James, my own sense is that we each have to follow the path that emerges outof what is most meaningful to ourselves rather than in relation to thebelief systems and far from perfect understanding / experiences of others.May you do the former with great success.Best wishes,Peter_ _________ _________ _________ ____ []On Behalf Of james cogdell01 November 2008 23:07@ ...: RE: Re: Fw: What happenswhen the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!Hi Michael,The point I am trying to make is that the Divine is just another aspect ofEgo. I can't understand why it is being separated from Ego in thisdiscussion. Everything that happens in our minds is everything that there isand it is all Ego. <snip>> > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here!> > > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1762 - Release 02/11/2008 9.51> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Win an Xbox 360 or £200 Top Shop Vouchers > http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 115454062/ direct/01/> Click here for FREE customisable desktop wallpapers. Get them Now! For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 Dear James, Thanks too. Yes, Michael James the author of Happiness and the Art of Being- a respected and knoiwledgeable long term English devotee, will be answering questions at our December meeting, the second Saturday. I willl be back then. it would be good to say hello. All details of our satsangs are on our web site Ramana Maharshi Foundation UK. All the best, Alan --- On Mon, 3/11/08, james cogdell <cogdelljames wrote: james cogdell <cogdelljamesRE: What happens... Date: Monday, 3 November, 2008, 10:45 AM Dear Alan,Thankyou for saying that. You mentioned that someone was giving a talk this month in Hampstead; can you remind me?James alanadamsjacobs@ .co. ukMon, 3 Nov 2008 02:18:11 +0000RE: What happens... Dear James, I was delighted to read you are staying with us. Your postings are valued and appreciated. All very best wishes and regards, Alan --- On Sun, 2/11/08, james cogdell <cogdelljames@ hotmail.com> wrote: james cogdell <cogdelljames@ hotmail.com>RE: What happens...Sunday, 2 November, 2008, 8:58 PM Great!!!James yosyflug (AT) isdn (DOT) net.ilSun, 2 Nov 2008 20:47:53 +0000Re: What happens... , james cogdell <cogdelljames@ ...> wrote:>> > Thankyou Michael and peace be with you too,> I am struggling, I know, but it is a fruitful struggle and coming to terms with my own level is a part of the process and I can't think of a better place to be with more understanding people.> James> > yes. peace emerges out of struggle, james my friend... and really, patience is all the power a wo/man needs. a little poem you may like (from "BOOM!");Thorny Words bless you, oh beloved,for inspiring the words of the wisewithout which i could notdiscard all wordslike thorns removing thorns…and for ever afterto melt and to dissolvewithin your ever-presentsilentlovinglaughter.oh beloved,bless you a million timesfor revealing to the simplewhat is concealedforeverfrom the intelligentand clever!good luck, _()_yosy> > @ ...: michael.bindel@ ...: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:04:46 +0100Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > > > > Peace with you > James> > "what other means of knowing..."> > of course NOT with the conceptual "mind" - but only with the "higher intuition" (intuition plus higher mind)> > only with this "tool", at the right "moment", when you as a "person" are mature enough to "grasp" it you will really KNOW and "feel" with all your being the "Divine"> > "" are used because this terms depends on your personal understanding> > at first i would in your position check with all your ability (at that moment) to define whatever you understand under a certain "word" - which meaning you yourself has given to it> than check what others understand by using these terms> > by the way> > all my explanations are born out of inner experience, not by books> books - as our friend yossi stated so wonderful - are just helping tools on the way> at the moment you really understand "something" you do not need them any more and no further explanations for others are needed> > instead of socalled knowledge - look at the situation in your personal life, in your personal world, in the world at large! you will see the fruits of this socalled knowledge which is instead ignorence per se, its like the building of the tower of babel in the jewish bible! - i prefer the expression curtain of noknowledge> > yours sincerely> > michael> > > - > james cogdell > > Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:09 PM> RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Hi Jill,Thanks. I can always do with a hug!! This all just seems like playing around with words, that's all. How on earth can you discover the Divine without using the mind, if the Divine exists ofcourse, which I honestly doubt. The Divine seems to be what Peter called a 'conceptual tool' and is also what Alan Jacobs has called an 'umbrella term' which to me means that it can be spread about abit to mean just about anything, like the touching of the 'Divine' when you blow yourself up to become a martyr, etc, etc.....or when you paint something and feel that you are entering another realm; or when you read a poem or listen to a piece of music that moves you to tears. The Divine is not sui generis. What other modes of knowing are there that do not require a mind?LoveJames> > @ ...: eggersj: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:32:22 -0500Re: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James and Peter, > > Peter, thanks for your earlier post. It was a very thoughtful response to James' ideas. I enjoyed reading it. > > James, for some reason when I read your posts I always want to give you a big hug. You are indeed a skeptic but with such an ardent wish to examine even your own skepticism in search of deeper understanding. After reading your post yesterday I got the image that to use the mind to understand the divine is like using scissors to dig a hole. While out running in the woods this morning, I thought about Peter likening the mind to consciousness. I conceive of the mind as something that emerges from consciousness, an arising of activity within the field of consciousness. Consciousness is the empty screen, mind the projections/ activity on the screen that obscures it. We tend to place our sense of identity with the mind--we think we are our minds. But we aren't. It's very difficult to relinquish this identification and the illusion of control it gives us. Modes of knowing that do not require or engage language are not e ncouraged in the culture. Even when these ways of knowing become part of one's experience, they may be dismissed by the linear, thinking mind as unreal, until they are established in a way that makes dismissing them impossible. > > David Hawkins writes about the ego and enlightenment in ways that I find very useful; you might like some of his books. "I: Reality and Subjectivity" , and "DIscovery of the Presence of God", are both good ones.> > Jill> > > > > On Nov 2, 2008, at 10:24 AM, james cogdell wrote:> > > > > Dear Peter,Thankyou so much for your post. I think deep down I am struggling here because I cannot understand how it is possible to know something without recourse to language. This is basic for me and I cannot ignore it. I have had experiences during meditation practice (formless meditation) that I find difficult to describe. However, they need to be described. For my own benefit, it is of no use to me to have to say that I do not know what I mean; that I cannot describe something. The idea of ineffability is a dead one; it communicates absolutely nothing and leaves a conversation flat. Conversations of that nature tend to end in a knowing smile, a real contradiction. My contention is that all of these experiences during whatever kind of meditation we do are conscious manipulations that produce chemical reactions in the body. We are like vessels that have the potential for many things and we can, once we have come to know our minds, use them for whatever we want. I am a total skeptic and perhaps, as has already been mentioned, do not belong here, but I need to discuss these things in order to understand.RegardsJ ames > > @ ...: not_2: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:14:19 +0000RE: What happens when the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!> > > Dear James,I'm not sure if these reflections will be of any help with the currentquestion. For what they are worth...I don't find the term "ego" is a very useful one. I say this from mybackground as someone following a spiritual path for many years and as asomeone working as psychotherapist for the last 20+ years with many peoplefor whom spirituality is an important concern in their lives. 'A sense ofindividuality' is a phrase that works better for me and has more resonancewith lived experience. The term "ego" is really just a conceptual toolvariously described and used by different disciplines -psychological andspiritual. In spiritual parlance it's often used with such negativity that,in my view, as a negatively loaded concept it more likely hinders ratherthan helps people make sense of their lived experience and the connectionbetween their 'sense of individuality' and the sense of connnec tedness tothe whole (or one-ness). It helps me if I put these things in simple terms. Thus: - In vedanta we call that 'sense of individuality' the jiva.- We call the underlying one-ness of life Brahman.- The recognition of the identity between the sense of individuality and theunderlying one-ness of life we call jnana or moksha (enlightenment, liberation) .- The spiritual path (sadhana) is a concerted effort to uncover thatrecogntion. This "recognition" isn't straight forward. It takes many forms and may beof various levels of intensity and duration. It may be intuitive, afleeting glimpse, a formless conviction; it may be a momentary yet profoundexperience of 'other-ness' , of one-ness, of the core of one's being of suchan intensity that it changes one's life thereafter. These are just a veryfew example s. In vedanta, someone who is fully established in that recognition is called abrahma-nishta, or jnani. In the kind of intense experiences which are transient the person mightretain 'a sense of individuality' during the process of recognition. Inwhich case the individual might report being in the presence of a higherpower, of feeling a part of the oneness of all life & so on. There are alsoexperiences where 'the sense of individuality' disolves - at leasttemporarily. But when it does re-emerge the outlook on life may never bethe same again. These experiences can be found in the different kinds ofsamadhi.I agree with you in one sense when you say it is all in the mind, if by mindwe consciousness. For one of the factors in common with what we callmystical experience is that we discover something which has alwa ys beenpresent. That's what makes such experiences profound and potentially lifechanging as we discover that underneath our lives of pleasure and suffering,of separateness and grasping, there is a much deeper substratum of knowingand being which is not defiled by outer appearances. It is certainly true that one aspect of human nature is wishful thinkingbased upon the desire for happiness and security. However, in itself thatis not sufficient to deny the existence of the underlying substratum. Onemight as well claim the sun only rises in the morning because people areafraid of the dark and desirous of light.To mention another context...In the early days of western psychology, psychologists and therapists weretotally preoccupied with definitions of pathology and what made people sick.Then people like Maslow (the founder of Humanistic Psychology) came along int he 1940s and decided to explore what helped people to be healthy, selfactualised, human beings. Psychological research along these lines showedthat 'self actualised' people often report experiences of love, wholeness,creativit y, a profound sense of truth, justice, authenticity & so on. Theseexperiences of self actualised people were called "peak experiences" . Butit wasn't long before their research showed that there was a whole level andrange of experiencing and knowing that transcended the usual models ofpersonality and ego psychology. In other words there was a range ofexperience of unity, love, compassion that couldn't simply be reduced toeither ego needs or ego development. Hence Transpersonal Psychology tookbirth (in the 1960s). The term "trans" refers to those states ofconsciousness and being that transcend 'ego' and personality. There is veryinteresting research in this field for those who wish to follow it up.< BR>In the field of psychology, probably the earliest pioneers in the field ofthe 'transpersonal' were Richard Bucke and William James who wereresearching the nature of spiritual (mystic) experience back in the verylate 1800s - before even the birth of Humanistic Psychology. William Jamesfound four core factors in common with spiritual experiences regardless ofthe background and religion of the person. While this touches a topic fartoo big to do justice to via email, and much more systematic research hasbeen carried out since William James' time, it may be relevant to mentionwhat the four core factors are:1. Ineffability - the experiences were too great to be expressed in wordsand thus had to be experienced directly as their meaning could not beimparted to others.2. Noetic - such experiences involved an experience of knowing, of havingdirect access to knowledge otherwise unobtainable to the discursiveintellect .3. Transiency - except in rare cases such experience is not maintained.4. Passivity - the individual feels their own will is in abeyance, perhapseven feeling they were grasped or held by a superior power.James, my own sense is that we each have to follow the path that emerges outof what is most meaningful to ourselves rather than in relation to thebelief systems and far from perfect understanding / experiences of others.May you do the former with great success.Best wishes,Peter_ _________ _________ _________ ____ []On Behalf Of james cogdell01 November 2008 23:07@ ...: RE: Re: Fw: What happenswhen the True Divine Human Nature Reveals!Hi Michael,The point I am trying to make is that the Divine is just another aspect ofEgo. I can't understand why it is being separated from Ego in thisdiscussion. Everything that happens in our minds is everything that there isand it is all Ego. <snip>> > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here!> > > For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1762 - Release 02/11/2008 9.51> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Win an Xbox 360 or £200 Top Shop Vouchers > http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 115454062/ direct/01/> Click here for FREE customisable desktop wallpapers. Get them Now! For the best free wallpapers from MSN Click here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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