Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Sorry for misspelling your name Arto. Namaste and love Harsha , " harshaimtm " wrote: > > Wonderful conversation. Welcome to the sangha orto. The force of the > guru works through the collective wisdom of the sangha. Sri Ramana > used to say that if one has found the right company of good souls that > helps to ripen the mind. Thanks Alan, orto, Jeff, Ram, Mouna, Joyce, > Jill, Tony, Peter, James, for sharing your wonderful insights. > > Also, thank you Era, Tony, Joyce, Jill, Jerry, and so many others for > the good wishes sent for the 10th anniversary of HS. > > We have all been together a long time. The warmth of your friendship > and love is comforting. > > Namaste and love to all > Harsha > > easy-and-natural-is-the-way-by-dr-harsh-k-luthar > > > > , Alan Jacobs > <alanadamsjacobs@> wrote: > > > > Dear Arto, > >  > > I like your analogy- it is quite original and effective. I feel you > have come to the correct conclusion. Your destiny will not be impeded. > Iswara preordains each life for each individual for his spiritual > development until Realisation when destiny in this sense ends. This > answer was given to Brunton by the Maharshi and is recorded in their > dialogues in a book called Conscious Immortality. If you are meant to > have an external Guru you will be given one, meanwhile you have an > inner Guru deep in your Heart who will guide you. > >  > > All best wishes, blessings and warm regards, > >  > > Alan > > > > --- On Mon, 5/1/09, arto <iamarto@> wrote: > > > > arto <iamarto@> > > Re: Is a Living Guru > necessary? from Barry > > > > Monday, 5 January, 2009, 4:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Alan, > > > > Please correspond as much as you can > > > > Well, what I mean of " free will " there is the relative one. I know > > that free will is only *apparent* and not real. I only meant that if > > before asking for the Master I had imagined several possibilities of > > how to spend my life, there would remain only one possibility > > afterwards (to my own relative perspective/ will) and I had to stick > > to that possibility because it's the best. > > > > However, yes from the absolute Consciousness perspective there is no > > free will and the Maharshi's quote for it is as follows: > > > > There is neither creation nor destruction, Neither destiny nor free > > will, Neither path nor achievement. -- Maharshi > > > > Recently this free-will issue has been an issue of contemplation, and > > I've imagined it in the form of a billiard/snooker (pool) game. Let's > > say that there's a peace of plastic made in the form of " C " that > > contains a bunch of balls on the billiard table, and every bunch of > > balls in " C " represents the thoughts/beliefs of an individual. The > > free-will thought is represented as the white ball outside of the > > plastic " C " , and although the inner thoughts and beliefs could be > > bombarded with the free will thought (white ball) from outside > > the " C " , no balls could escape the " C " shaped plastic. And this is a > > rule that we set at will, assuming that individual > > intelligence/ knowledge is constantly limited as far as it is Ego- > > attached. > > > > This free-will thought (white ball) is a very dangerous ball, because > > the individual might fall into the trap that he could escape his > > predetermined destiny by bombarding his own thoughts (balls in " C " > > shape) with the free-will thought and the outcome is suicide as an > > attempt to " outsmart God " . > > > > So why is this thought-trap ignorance? Because no matter how (in > > which way/direction/ power) the white ball bombards the other balls in > > the " C " shape, all the probabilities of how the balls will interact > > to resolve an outcome will be limited by the boundaries physical > > dimensions and qualities of the " C " shape (limited by Ego's Capacity) > > and all the probabilities are pre-calculated by the Self which is > > aware of all possibilities, and aware of the final possibility that > > the individual will conclude. > > > > Final conclusion? No free-will, and any attachment to thought > > processes, beliefs or concepts is a prison so vast to be easily > > recognized. Then you can easily compare an unenlightened/ unRealised > > human being to the Chessmaster software engine running on a computer. > > > > arto > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Arto, > > >  > > > Forgive me in intervening in your correspondence with Barry. You > > say 'there's no more free will'. But the so called free will we > >  imagine we have is only apparant, and is part of the structure > >  inbuilt in the predetermination .There are quotes from > Bhagavan to > > back this up. Free Will is a vexatious question,.We are advised to > > look for the source of he who thinks he has or has not free will. > > That is Self Enquiry. > > >  > > > All best wishes and regards, > > >  > > > Alan > > > > > > --- On Mon, 5/1/09, arto <iamarto@ > wrote: > > > > > > arto <iamarto@ > > > > Re: Is a Living Guru > > necessary? from Barry > > > > > > Monday, 5 January, 2009, 10:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Barry, > > > > > > I believe this is a very common question, and I am personally > > asking > > > the same one to myself always up-till now. > > > > > > Yet, I have some thoughts and beliefs that could help in > > > determination. > > > > > > One of the thoughts that had an impact on me was an answer to this > > > question from a corresponding friend. He told me that I can > > sincerely > > > ask the universe for a living Master, and if the request is > > earnest, > > > the time is ripe enough, and you are persistent, the desire will be > > > granted and a Master will appear in your life. > > > > > > But then there is something to ponder.. once the living Master > > > appears in your life, there's no more free-will. The grace of the > > > Master as a gift from heaven has to be accepted by the requestor > > > along with the pre-determined path of perfection. When you meet the > > > Master you cannot escape the perfect destiny afterwards, such that > > > you cannot say " well I don't like this Master, I do not accept this > > > way of life " . You have to go through the Path set before you and > > > endure the difficulties untill the end, for otherwise the > > consequence > > > will not be fruitful at all. However if the time is not ripe > > > enough most probably the Master will not appear. Life cannot put > > you > > > in a temptation of denial higher than your spiritual maturity. > > > > > > The same friend told me something else that was from his own > > > experience. He said that after years of thorough searching for a > > > Master he found it in himself. Although such words *might* seem > > > spiritually poetic and appealing but " not realistic " but it touched > > > me to some extent, and made me think that maybe there is a voice > > > inside me that I ignore that is guiding me and I'm unable to > > listen. > > > It reminds me of the beautiful message of the movie " I am Legend " > > > when Will Smith remembered what his daughter was telling him one > > day > > > when he was too busy " Look at the Butterfly~ " , and he ignored the > > low > > > voice of innocense in the background, but when he rememberd at the > > > end of the movie, he knew what to do! > > > > > > > > > arto > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > Barry and I have agreed to forward our off line correspondence to > > > the Group as it may be useful to some members. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 2/1/09, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> > > > > > Re: Is a Living Guru necessary? from Barry > > > > > " barry domegan " <bazzadom@ .> > > > > > Friday, 2 January, 2009, 5:28 AM > > > > > Dear Barry, > > > > > > > > > > There are two points of view on this, for and against. > > > > > Bhagavan said that he never claimed a living Guru was > > > > > unnecessary and the Guru may appear when the time is ripe- > > > > > or words to that effect. Murugana's school with which I > > > > > broadly agree, says that a living Guru is not strictly > > > > > necessary as Bhagavan is alive in the Heart as pure > > > > > consciousness awareness, his formless form, as it were. I > > > > > have found this to be the case. > > > > > > > > > > Paradoxically, however, Muruganar, Sadhu Om, and Michael > > > > > James all have had living Gurus. My own view is that one can > > > > > manage without a living Guru for this reason that he is in > > > > > the Heart, BUT if one is presented to you who fills the > > > > > criteria of love and peace in their presence then it is a > > > > > help and is grace.. They will answer questioins re. > > > > > difficulties in sadhana which you personally find. Also when > > > > > they tell you something it strikes the mind with greater > > > > > authority than all you read in books. Either way - it is in > > > > > the karma, that you may or may not have one, but progress > > > > > can be made with sincere effort either way. > > > > > > > > > > All love, > > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 1/1/09, barry domegan > > > > > <bazzadom@ .> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > barry domegan <bazzadom@ .> > > > > > > Is a Living Guru necessary? from Barry > > > > > > " Alan Jacobs " > > > > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> > > > > > > Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 7:04 PM > > > > > > Alan, > > > > > > I've just come across an interesting quote on > > > > > the > > > > > > subject of a living Guru, a question thats often vexed > > > > > me > > > > > > since I read that robert Adams said that a living Guru > > > > > was > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sri Sadhu Om often said that no true disciple of Sri > > > > > > Ramana can be a guru, because Sri Ramana alone is the > > > > > guru > > > > > > of all who are attracted to his teachings. Whenever > > > > > anyone > > > > > > asked him whether it is not necessary for us to have a > > > > > > 'living guru', Sri Sadhu Om used to laugh and > > > > > say, > > > > > > " guru alone is living, and we are all dead " , > > > > > and > > > > > > he explained the real guru is not a physical body but > > > > > is the > > > > > > ever-living spirit, the infinite consciousness of > > > > > being that > > > > > > exists within each one of us as our own true self. > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Michael James > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting is it not? > > > > > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Please misspell it.. it kicks my Ego arto , " harshaimtm " wrote: > > Sorry for misspelling your name Arto. > > Namaste and love > Harsha > > , " harshaimtm " <harsha@> wrote: > > > > Wonderful conversation. Welcome to the sangha orto. The force of the > > guru works through the collective wisdom of the sangha. Sri Ramana > > used to say that if one has found the right company of good souls that > > helps to ripen the mind. Thanks Alan, orto, Jeff, Ram, Mouna, Joyce, > > Jill, Tony, Peter, James, for sharing your wonderful insights. > > > > Also, thank you Era, Tony, Joyce, Jill, Jerry, and so many others for > > the good wishes sent for the 10th anniversary of HS. > > > > We have all been together a long time. The warmth of your friendship > > and love is comforting. > > > > Namaste and love to all > > Harsha > > > > easy-and-natural-is-the-way-by-dr-harsh-k-luthar > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > <alanadamsjacobs@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Arto, > > >  > > > I like your analogy- it is quite original and effective. I feel you > > have come to the correct conclusion. Your destiny will not be impeded. > > Iswara preordains each life for each individual for his spiritual > > development until Realisation when destiny in this sense ends. This > > answer was given to Brunton by the Maharshi and is recorded in their > > dialogues in a book called Conscious Immortality. If you are meant to > > have an external Guru you will be given one, meanwhile you have an > > inner Guru deep in your Heart who will guide you. > > >  > > > All best wishes, blessings and warm regards, > > >  > > > Alan > > > > > > --- On Mon, 5/1/09, arto <iamarto@> wrote: > > > > > > arto <iamarto@> > > > Re: Is a Living Guru > > necessary? from Barry > > > > > > Monday, 5 January, 2009, 4:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Alan, > > > > > > Please correspond as much as you can > > > > > > Well, what I mean of " free will " there is the relative one. I know > > > that free will is only *apparent* and not real. I only meant that if > > > before asking for the Master I had imagined several possibilities of > > > how to spend my life, there would remain only one possibility > > > afterwards (to my own relative perspective/ will) and I had to stick > > > to that possibility because it's the best. > > > > > > However, yes from the absolute Consciousness perspective there is no > > > free will and the Maharshi's quote for it is as follows: > > > > > > There is neither creation nor destruction, Neither destiny nor free > > > will, Neither path nor achievement. -- Maharshi > > > > > > Recently this free-will issue has been an issue of contemplation, and > > > I've imagined it in the form of a billiard/snooker (pool) game. Let's > > > say that there's a peace of plastic made in the form of " C " that > > > contains a bunch of balls on the billiard table, and every bunch of > > > balls in " C " represents the thoughts/beliefs of an individual. The > > > free-will thought is represented as the white ball outside of the > > > plastic " C " , and although the inner thoughts and beliefs could be > > > bombarded with the free will thought (white ball) from outside > > > the " C " , no balls could escape the " C " shaped plastic. And this is a > > > rule that we set at will, assuming that individual > > > intelligence/ knowledge is constantly limited as far as it is Ego- > > > attached. > > > > > > This free-will thought (white ball) is a very dangerous ball, because > > > the individual might fall into the trap that he could escape his > > > predetermined destiny by bombarding his own thoughts (balls in " C " > > > shape) with the free-will thought and the outcome is suicide as an > > > attempt to " outsmart God " . > > > > > > So why is this thought-trap ignorance? Because no matter how (in > > > which way/direction/ power) the white ball bombards the other > balls in > > > the " C " shape, all the probabilities of how the balls will interact > > > to resolve an outcome will be limited by the boundaries physical > > > dimensions and qualities of the " C " shape (limited by Ego's Capacity) > > > and all the probabilities are pre-calculated by the Self which is > > > aware of all possibilities, and aware of the final possibility that > > > the individual will conclude. > > > > > > Final conclusion? No free-will, and any attachment to thought > > > processes, beliefs or concepts is a prison so vast to be easily > > > recognized. Then you can easily compare an unenlightened/ unRealised > > > human being to the Chessmaster software engine running on a computer. > > > > > > arto > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Arto, > > > >  > > > > Forgive me in intervening in your correspondence with Barry. You > > > say 'there's no more free will'. But the so called free will we > > >  imagine we have is only apparant, and is part of the structure > > >  inbuilt in the predetermination .There are quotes from > > Bhagavan to > > > back this up. Free Will is a vexatious question,.We are advised to > > > look for the source of he who thinks he has or has not free will. > > > That is Self Enquiry. > > > >  > > > > All best wishes and regards, > > > >  > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 5/1/09, arto <iamarto@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > arto <iamarto@ > > > > > Re: Is a Living Guru > > > necessary? from Barry > > > > > > > > Monday, 5 January, 2009, 10:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Barry, > > > > > > > > I believe this is a very common question, and I am personally > > > asking > > > > the same one to myself always up-till now. > > > > > > > > Yet, I have some thoughts and beliefs that could help in > > > > determination. > > > > > > > > One of the thoughts that had an impact on me was an answer to this > > > > question from a corresponding friend. He told me that I can > > > sincerely > > > > ask the universe for a living Master, and if the request is > > > earnest, > > > > the time is ripe enough, and you are persistent, the desire will be > > > > granted and a Master will appear in your life. > > > > > > > > But then there is something to ponder.. once the living Master > > > > appears in your life, there's no more free-will. The grace of the > > > > Master as a gift from heaven has to be accepted by the requestor > > > > along with the pre-determined path of perfection. When you meet the > > > > Master you cannot escape the perfect destiny afterwards, such that > > > > you cannot say " well I don't like this Master, I do not accept this > > > > way of life " . You have to go through the Path set before you and > > > > endure the difficulties untill the end, for otherwise the > > > consequence > > > > will not be fruitful at all. However if the time is not ripe > > > > enough most probably the Master will not appear. Life cannot put > > > you > > > > in a temptation of denial higher than your spiritual maturity. > > > > > > > > The same friend told me something else that was from his own > > > > experience. He said that after years of thorough searching for a > > > > Master he found it in himself. Although such words *might* seem > > > > spiritually poetic and appealing but " not realistic " but it touched > > > > me to some extent, and made me think that maybe there is a voice > > > > inside me that I ignore that is guiding me and I'm unable to > > > listen. > > > > It reminds me of the beautiful message of the movie " I am Legend " > > > > when Will Smith remembered what his daughter was telling him one > > > day > > > > when he was too busy " Look at the Butterfly~ " , and he ignored the > > > low > > > > voice of innocense in the background, but when he rememberd at the > > > > end of the movie, he knew what to do! > > > > > > > > > > > > arto > > > > > > > > , Alan Jacobs > > > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > Barry and I have agreed to forward our off line correspondence to > > > > the Group as it may be useful to some members. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 2/1/09, Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> > > > > > > Re: Is a Living Guru necessary? from Barry > > > > > > " barry domegan " <bazzadom@ .> > > > > > > Friday, 2 January, 2009, 5:28 AM > > > > > > Dear Barry, > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two points of view on this, for and against. > > > > > > Bhagavan said that he never claimed a living Guru was > > > > > > unnecessary and the Guru may appear when the time is ripe- > > > > > > or words to that effect. Murugana's school with which I > > > > > > broadly agree, says that a living Guru is not strictly > > > > > > necessary as Bhagavan is alive in the Heart as pure > > > > > > consciousness awareness, his formless form, as it were. I > > > > > > have found this to be the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Paradoxically, however, Muruganar, Sadhu Om, and Michael > > > > > > James all have had living Gurus. My own view is that one can > > > > > > manage without a living Guru for this reason that he is in > > > > > > the Heart, BUT if one is presented to you who fills the > > > > > > criteria of love and peace in their presence then it is a > > > > > > help and is grace.. They will answer questioins re. > > > > > > difficulties in sadhana which you personally find. Also when > > > > > > they tell you something it strikes the mind with greater > > > > > > authority than all you read in books. Either way - it is in > > > > > > the karma, that you may or may not have one, but progress > > > > > > can be made with sincere effort either way. > > > > > > > > > > > > All love, > > > > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 1/1/09, barry domegan > > > > > > <bazzadom@ .> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > barry domegan <bazzadom@ .> > > > > > > > Is a Living Guru necessary? from Barry > > > > > > > " Alan Jacobs " > > > > > > <alanadamsjacobs@ ...> > > > > > > > Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 7:04 PM > > > > > > > Alan, > > > > > > > I've just come across an interesting quote on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > subject of a living Guru, a question thats often vexed > > > > > > me > > > > > > > since I read that robert Adams said that a living Guru > > > > > > was > > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sri Sadhu Om often said that no true disciple of Sri > > > > > > > Ramana can be a guru, because Sri Ramana alone is the > > > > > > guru > > > > > > > of all who are attracted to his teachings. Whenever > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > asked him whether it is not necessary for us to have a > > > > > > > 'living guru', Sri Sadhu Om used to laugh and > > > > > > say, > > > > > > > " guru alone is living, and we are all dead " , > > > > > > and > > > > > > > he explained the real guru is not a physical body but > > > > > > is the > > > > > > > ever-living spirit, the infinite consciousness of > > > > > > being that > > > > > > > exists within each one of us as our own true self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Michael James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting is it not? > > > > > > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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