Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 It seems that there are 'teachers' with incredible clarity, and testimony of powerful life-changing awakenings... but then some seem to narrow their POV (point of view) and argue with the model of POV from which another awakened is coming. A recent exchange cost someone his seat here. Sankara recognized this, and his philosophy was so open as to even refer to a 'sort of' reality in maya - that only 'exists' (sort of) before awakening - or from a singular POV. 'The Nirguna Brahman of Sankara is impersonal. It becomes a personal God or Saguna Brahman only through Its association with Maya.' --- from http://www.sankaracharya.org/advaita_philosophy.php Jeff PS: A recent post of mine may have seemed off the wall and irrelevant to this group; the one about " Walk Ins " . By way of explanation, I was looking for analogy with Ramana's shift from the I sense of being to the awakend I-I, the " Walk In " may have been too much of a stretch, and just a stroll through the field of vivid imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Dear Jeff, I didn't quite follow all you were saying. However, the link you gave provides an excellent summary of Sankara's teachings on Advaita. To quote: " In Brahman, there is not the distinction of substance and attribute. Sat-Chit-Ananda constitute the very essence or Svarupa of Brahman, and not just Its attributes. The Nirguna Brahman of Sankara is impersonal. It becomes a personal God or Saguna Brahman only through Its association with Maya. " " Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman are not two different Brahmans. Nirguna Brahman is not the contrast, antithesis or opposite of Saguna Brahman. The same Nirguna Brahman appears as Saguna Brahman for the pious worship of devotees. It is the same Truth from two different points of view. " Sri Ramana, Sankara, Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita and other great sages all state that the *appearance* of God (saguna Brahman) as something separate from ourselves is illusory (maya). At the same time each upheld that it is devotion to Saguna Brahman, in whatever form (God, Guru, the Highest ideal) that purifies the mind of the aspirant leading him/her ultimately to That which IS behind all appearances. Regards, Peter On Behalf Of Jeff Belyea 27 January 2009 13:35 A personal view. It seems that there are 'teachers' with incredible clarity, and testimony of powerful life-changing awakenings... <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Thanks, Peter. Yes, this is very easy to digest summary of high teachings. Particularly appealing was the, " It is the same truth from two different points of view, which seems to bridge duality and nonduality (relatively). Jeff , " Peter " <not_2 wrote: > > Dear Jeff, > > I didn't quite follow all you were saying. However, the link you gave > provides an excellent summary of Sankara's teachings on Advaita. To quote: > > " In Brahman, there is not the distinction of substance and attribute. > Sat-Chit-Ananda constitute the very essence or Svarupa of Brahman, and not > just Its attributes. The Nirguna Brahman of Sankara is impersonal. It > becomes a personal God or Saguna Brahman only through Its association with > Maya. " > > " Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman are not two different Brahmans. Nirguna > Brahman is not the contrast, antithesis or opposite of Saguna Brahman. The > same Nirguna Brahman appears as Saguna Brahman for the pious worship of > devotees. It is the same Truth from two different points of view. " > > Sri Ramana, Sankara, Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita and other great sages all > state that the *appearance* of God (saguna Brahman) as something separate > from ourselves is illusory (maya). At the same time each upheld that it is > devotion to Saguna Brahman, in whatever form (God, Guru, the Highest ideal) > that purifies the mind of the aspirant leading him/her ultimately to That > which IS behind all appearances. > > Regards, > Peter > > > > > > On Behalf Of Jeff Belyea > 27 January 2009 13:35 > > A personal view. > > > It seems that there are 'teachers' with > incredible clarity, and testimony of > powerful life-changing awakenings... > > <snip> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Namaste Jeff, IMExperience, after awakening, there is still the *stuff of personalities* or *filters* through which the awakened one speaks/hears. *Awakening* is an experience; it may or may not change the personalities who may have been at-odds through any stage of awakening; before during or after. Additionally, awakening is not a one-time event. It is an on-going experience if one remembers that one's personality can (and does often enough) have a habit of *getting in the way*. Just like family, we often have an *interesting time* during gatherings. The trick is to remember what *awakening* is all about without getting *stuck* again. Liberation, Love and Letting Go. Not necessarily in that order. ~Anna , " Jeff Belyea " <jeff wrote: > > > It seems that there are 'teachers' with > incredible clarity, and testimony of > powerful life-changing awakenings... > > but then some seem to narrow their > POV (point of view) and argue with > the model of POV from which another > awakened is coming. A recent exchange > cost someone his seat here. > > Sankara recognized this, and his > philosophy was so open as to even > refer to a 'sort of' reality in maya - > that only 'exists' (sort of) before > awakening - or from a singular > POV. > > 'The Nirguna Brahman of Sankara > is impersonal. It becomes a personal > God or Saguna Brahman only through > Its association with Maya.' > > --- from http://www.sankaracharya.org/advaita_philosophy.php > > Jeff > > PS: A recent post of mine may have > seemed off the wall and irrelevant > to this group; the one about " Walk Ins " . > By way of explanation, I was looking > for analogy with Ramana's shift from > the I sense of being to the awakend I-I, > the " Walk In " may have been too > much of a stretch, and just a stroll > through the field of vivid imagination. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Dear Casper, Thank you for letting me know your views, albeit indirectly, on the topic and the recent exchanges on HarshaSatsang. I'm not a moderator on HarshaSatsang nor have I had any discussions with the Moderators about their decisions. Likewise I was not a moderator of Advaitin Group nor had any discussions with them (a completely different set of Moderators) when Tony was banned from posting there for a year. As you infer, the moderators obviously feel there is an ongoing dynamic beyond the recent exchanges which they are unhappy with. It's good that you let the Moderators know your views. I'm sure they will reflect upon them even though they didn't post them. I suspect that rather than an issue of 'who can you trust', having made a decision (which clearly wasn't made lightly) the Moderators didn't wish to have a public discussion about it. If you have doubts and disagreements about anything I've expressed on Ramana's teaching I'm sure the Moderators would not prevent you posting them. They would be very welcome as far as I'm concerned. Best wishes, Peter Caspar De Groot [caspardegroot] 28 January 2009 02:39 jeff Cc: not_2; aoclery; Re: A personal view. Hi Jeff, (cc: Peter, Tony) You wrote: " A recent exchange cost someone his seat here. " Indeed. I posted a lengthy message in regard to this matter, expressing my reservations about the group's reaction to a dissenting voice. And guess what? My message got " moderated " . I've attached it here. Be careful who you trust. Regards, Caspar. --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Jeff Belyea <jeff wrote: Jeff Belyea <jeff A personal view. Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 8:34 PM It seems that there are 'teachers' with incredible clarity, and testimony of powerful life-changing awakenings... but then some seem to narrow their POV (point of view) and argue with the model of POV from which another awakened is coming. A recent exchange cost someone his seat here. Sankara recognized this, and his philosophy was so open as to even refer to a 'sort of' reality in maya - that only 'exists' (sort of) before awakening - or from a singular POV. 'The Nirguna Brahman of Sankara is impersonal. It becomes a personal God or Saguna Brahman only through Its association with Maya.' --- from http://www.sankaracharya.org/advaita_philosophy.php Jeff PS: A recent post of mine may have seemed off the wall and irrelevant to this group; the one about " Walk Ins " . By way of explanation, I was looking for analogy with Ramana's shift from the I sense of being to the awakend I-I, the " Walk In " may have been too much of a stretch, and just a stroll through the field of vivid imagination. --- is supported by . New articles are added there on a continuous basis. Please register at . You will be kept updated and get the new articles which are posted on the site very nicely formatted in your e-mail. Friends, after registering at , if you wish to contribute your writing to the site, please let me know. Your articles should be original, well written, using subtitles, and be carefully proofread and polished. For a list of topics considered, please go to and take a look at the site. Thanks. Namaste and love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Dear Harsha, Caspar and All, My sincere apologies for the post below. I had not realised when I did a 'reply to all' that this group's email address was included. I'm so sorry. Sincerely, Peter On Behalf Of Peter 28 January 2009 11:23 'Caspar De Groot' Cc: aoclery; ; jeff RE: A personal view. Dear Casper, Thank you for letting me know your views, albeit indirectly, on the topic and the recent exchanges on HarshaSatsang. <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 , " anabebe57 " <kailashana wrote: > > Namaste Jeff, > > IMExperience, after awakening, there is still the *stuff of > personalities* or *filters* through which the awakened one speaks/hears. Namaste, Anna. Sure. And there are cultural and spiritual 'models' into which the knowledge awakening brings fit comfortably. Attaching to that model is where the danger of exclusivity comes in...the old, my religion is the only 'true' religion war mongering POV. Yet, awakened ones recognize the authentic language of an awakened one, and are sensitive to the 'tell' of inauthentic language that is merely academic - personality and filters aside. Those who, by grace, enter the 'mystic' realm of the new identity, the I-I of Ramana, are not likely to be snared by attachment to their model, yet may be passionate about their philosophy. When debates or discussions arise about the manner in which a POV is presented, they can be substantive or merely semantic. When they are between an authentically awakened one and someone who is an aspirant attempting to pose as awakened, then only the discerning awakened ones will recognize what is going on. Of course, discussions and even differing or dissenting points of view can arise between awakened ones. But it's all entertainment. We know when we know...and we know when we don't know. > > *Awakening* is an experience; it may or may not change the > personalities who may have been at-odds through any stage of > awakening; before during or after. > > Additionally, awakening is not a one-time event. It is an on-going > experience if one remembers that one's personality can (and does often > enough) have a habit of *getting in the way*. True enough, but not to the point of being inauthentic simply to emerge as the debate winner. > > Just like family, we often have an *interesting time* during > gatherings. The trick is to remember what *awakening* is all about > without getting *stuck* again. Yes, expecting family to understand the 'new' awakened personality can be a real stumbling block. But no danger of getting 'stuck' again... I hope. > > Liberation, Love and Letting Go. Not necessarily in that order. > > ~Anna All good, Jeff , " Jeff Belyea " <jeff@> wrote: > > > > > > It seems that there are 'teachers' with > > incredible clarity, and testimony of > > powerful life-changing awakenings... > > > > but then some seem to narrow their > > POV (point of view) and argue with > > the model of POV from which another > > awakened is coming. A recent exchange > > cost someone his seat here. > > > > Sankara recognized this, and his > > philosophy was so open as to even > > refer to a 'sort of' reality in maya - > > that only 'exists' (sort of) before > > awakening - or from a singular > > POV. > > > > 'The Nirguna Brahman of Sankara > > is impersonal. It becomes a personal > > God or Saguna Brahman only through > > Its association with Maya.' > > > > --- from http://www.sankaracharya.org/advaita_philosophy.php > > > > Jeff > > > > PS: A recent post of mine may have > > seemed off the wall and irrelevant > > to this group; the one about " Walk Ins " . > > By way of explanation, I was looking > > for analogy with Ramana's shift from > > the I sense of being to the awakend I-I, > > the " Walk In " may have been too > > much of a stretch, and just a stroll > > through the field of vivid imagination. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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