Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it was written. Regards, MC-M = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness." Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help. Until one realises this what can one say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Dear Michael, It is good to see a post from you again. I am a little apprehensive about this letter. Does he call himself a Jnani ? Robert Adams used to say that anyone who calls himself a Jnani isn't one because the 'I' which says 'I am a Jnani' is the one that has to go to be one. Jnani is an honorific term bestowed upon by others who perceive his or her enlightenment and feel it palpably. Regarding Arunachala, very many Devotees, myself included, find from this Sacred Divine Mountain a tremendous power and strength and a great aid in our quest whenever we visit. Ramana wrote his Marital Garland of Letters extolling the virtues of Arunachala, and encouraged his Devotees to make Pradakshina which he felt was a very great aid to their sadhana. I respect that these may be the personal views of your correspondent , but I am not very happy in him applying a general rule to those Devotees who love the Hill and see the Mountain as a form of the divine formlessness- a great Shiva Linga, a sacred place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, and which was the home of our beloved Bhagavan where he has left his subtle leavings. All very best wishes and warm regards in friendship, Yours in Bhagavan, Alan , " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere wrote: > > > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who > completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another > devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt > that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the > contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the > recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced > below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it > was written. > > > > > Regards, MC-M > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, > in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am > not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone > around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about > Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere > ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only > solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] > but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel > through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary > staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the > devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times > their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana > devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his > devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did > not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the > hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no > corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? > " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only > what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure > Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that > Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. > Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those > which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of > any help. Until one realises this what can one say? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 I understand your sentiments Alan... I often have a feeling of protectiveness towards Ramana and His Teachings, and when someone speaks about them in a way that seems off, I am quick to want to correct them. But in the end, Ramana - as the Eternal One within - is correcting each in their own time and way. Thank you for your continued finger pointing to Truth, and all your kindness and wisdom along the way. Rafael alan jacobs <alanadamsjacobs Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:40:13 PM Re: Letter from a Jnani Dear Michael,It is good to see a post from you again.I am a little apprehensive about this letter. Does he call himself a Jnani ? Robert Adams used to say that anyone who calls himself a Jnani isn't one because the 'I' which says 'I am a Jnani' is the one that has to go to be one. Jnani is an honorific term bestowed upon by others who perceive his or her enlightenment and feel it palpably.Regarding Arunachala, very many Devotees, myself included, find from this Sacred Divine Mountain a tremendous power and strength and a great aid in our quest whenever we visit. Ramana wrote his Marital Garland of Letters extolling the virtues of Arunachala, and encouraged his Devotees to make Pradakshina which he felt was a very great aid to their sadhana.I respect that these may be the personal views of your correspondent , but I am not very happy in him applying a general rule to those Devotees who love the Hill and see the Mountain as a form of the divine formlessness- a great Shiva Linga, a sacred place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, and which was the home of our beloved Bhagavan where he has left his subtle leavings.All very best wishes and warm regards in friendship,Yours in Bhagavan,Alan, "MIchael Cape-Meadows" <ramanatmosphere@ ...> wrote:>> > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who> completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another> devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt> that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the> contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the> recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced> below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it> was written.> > > > > Regards, MC-M> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = => > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate,> in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am> not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone> around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about> Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere> ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only> solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me]> but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel> through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary> staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the> devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times> their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana> devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his> devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did> not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the> hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no> corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he?> "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only> what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure> Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that> Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise.> Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those> which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of> any help. Until one realises this what can one say?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Dear Rafe, Thank you for your postings always pointing to the Truth as well. Love, In His Grace, Alan--- On Fri, 24/7/09, Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstoneman wrote: Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstonemanRe: Re: Letter from a Jnani Date: Friday, 24 July, 2009, 12:47 PM I understand your sentiments Alan... I often have a feeling of protectiveness towards Ramana and His Teachings, and when someone speaks about them in a way that seems off, I am quick to want to correct them. But in the end, Ramana - as the Eternal One within - is correcting each in their own time and way. Thank you for your continued finger pointing to Truth, and all your kindness and wisdom along the way. Rafael alan jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@ .co. uk>Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:40:13 PM Re: Letter from a Jnani Dear Michael,It is good to see a post from you again.I am a little apprehensive about this letter. Does he call himself a Jnani ? Robert Adams used to say that anyone who calls himself a Jnani isn't one because the 'I' which says 'I am a Jnani' is the one that has to go to be one. Jnani is an honorific term bestowed upon by others who perceive his or her enlightenment and feel it palpably.Regarding Arunachala, very many Devotees, myself included, find from this Sacred Divine Mountain a tremendous power and strength and a great aid in our quest whenever we visit. Ramana wrote his Marital Garland of Letters extolling the virtues of Arunachala, and encouraged his Devotees to make Pradakshina which he felt was a very great aid to their sadhana.I respect that these may be the personal views of your correspondent , but I am not very happy in him applying a general rule to those Devotees who love the Hill and see the Mountain as a form of the divine formlessness- a great Shiva Linga, a sacred place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, and which was the home of our beloved Bhagavan where he has left his subtle leavings.All very best wishes and warm regards in friendship,Yours in Bhagavan,Alan, "MIchael Cape-Meadows" <ramanatmosphere@ ...> wrote:>> > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who> completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another> devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt> that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the> contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the> recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced> below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it> was written.> > > > > Regards, MC-M> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = => > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate,> in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am> not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone> around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about> Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere> ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only> solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me]> but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel> through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary> staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the> devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times> their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana> devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his> devotees believed in.. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did> not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the> hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no> corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he?> "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only> what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure> Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that> Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise.> Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those> which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of> any help. Until one realises this what can one say?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Dear Alan-ji: Your wisdom and the ability to go to the heart of the matter when it comes to the life and teachings of the great Sage of Arunachala, Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, shines brightly. We are blessed to have you here Alan-ji. Sri Ramana once said something like the Guru never lets the devotee go. It is up to everyone to turn within and with sincerity inquire into one's nature. The ability to do that increases with effort and through grace. Both work hand in hand. Even the effort is due to grace only. One does what one can to the best of one's ability. The Guru does the rest. There should be no doubt and worry. That one has heard of Sri Ramana means that one is blessed. That one has read about Sri Ramana's life means one is blessed. That one follows the teachings of Sri Ramana means one is blessed. That one keeps in one's heart devotion for Bhagavan means one is blessed. That one has company of other devotees means one is blessed. This sangha is blessed by Bhagavan. All are blessed. Namaste and love to all Harsha On Behalf Of alan jacobs Friday, July 24, 2009 1:40 AM Re: Letter from a Jnani Dear Michael, It is good to see a post from you again. I am a little apprehensive about this letter. Does he call himself a Jnani ? Robert Adams used to say that anyone who calls himself a Jnani isn't one because the 'I' which says 'I am a Jnani' is the one that has to go to be one. Jnani is an honorific term bestowed upon by others who perceive his or her enlightenment and feel it palpably. Regarding Arunachala, very many Devotees, myself included, find from this Sacred Divine Mountain a tremendous power and strength and a great aid in our quest whenever we visit. Ramana wrote his Marital Garland of Letters extolling the virtues of Arunachala, and encouraged his Devotees to make Pradakshina which he felt was a very great aid to their sadhana. I respect that these may be the personal views of your correspondent , but I am not very happy in him applying a general rule to those Devotees who love the Hill and see the Mountain as a form of the divine formlessness- a great Shiva Linga, a sacred place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, and which was the home of our beloved Bhagavan where he has left his subtle leavings. All very best wishes and warm regards in friendship, Yours in Bhagavan, Alan , " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere wrote: > > > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who > completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another > devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt > that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the > contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the > recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced > below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it > was written. > > > > > Regards, MC-M > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, > in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am > not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone > around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about > Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere > ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only > solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] > but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel > through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary > staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the > devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times > their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana > devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his > devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did > not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the > hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no > corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? > " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only > what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure > Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that > Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. > Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those > which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of > any help. Until one realises this what can one say? > --- is supported by . New articles are added there on a continuous basis. Please register at . You will be kept updated and get the new articles which are posted on the site very nicely formatted in your e-mail. Friends, after registering at , if you wish to contribute your writing to the site, please let me know. Your articles should be original, well written, using subtitles, and be carefully proofread and polished. For a list of topics considered, please go to and take a look at the site. Thanks. Namaste and love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 My dear Harshaji, Thank you for your kind words, and the moving praises of our Sat-Guru, the beloved Sri Bhagavan. We all owe a tremendous debt to you for maintaining this site for ten years, and wisely supervising its welfare, along with your essays and poems on your splendid Luthar.com Bhagavan's Grace shines on all his Devotees. Love and blessings, Yours in His immortal formless form, ever present in our Hearts, as our own dear Self. Alan--- On Fri, 24/7/09, Harsha wrote: Harsha RE: Re: Letter from a Jnani Date: Friday, 24 July, 2009, 1:45 PM Dear Alan-ji:Your wisdom and the ability to go to the heart of the matter when it comesto the life and teachings of the great Sage of Arunachala, Bhagavan SriRamana Maharshi, shines brightly. We are blessed to have you here Alan-ji. Sri Ramana once said something like the Guru never lets the devotee go. Itis up to everyone to turn within and with sincerity inquire into one'snature. The ability to do that increases with effort and through grace. Bothwork hand in hand. Even the effort is due to grace only. One does what onecan to the best of one's ability. The Guru does the rest. There should be nodoubt and worry..That one has heard of Sri Ramana means that one is blessed. That one hasread about Sri Ramana's life means one is blessed. That one follows theteachings of Sri Ramana means one is blessed. That one keeps in one's heartdevotion for Bhagavan means one is blessed. That one has company of otherdevotees means one is blessed.This sangha is blessed by Bhagavan. All are blessed.Namaste and love to allHarsha []On Behalf Of alan jacobsFriday, July 24, 2009 1:40 AM Re: Letter from a JnaniDear Michael,It is good to see a post from you again.I am a little apprehensive about this letter. Does he call himself a Jnani ?Robert Adams used to say that anyone who calls himself a Jnani isn't onebecause the 'I' which says 'I am a Jnani' is the one that has to go to beone. Jnani is an honorific term bestowed upon by others who perceive his orher enlightenment and feel it palpably.Regarding Arunachala, very many Devotees, myself included, find from thisSacred Divine Mountain a tremendous power and strength and a great aid inour quest whenever we visit. Ramana wrote his Marital Garland of Lettersextolling the virtues of Arunachala, and encouraged his Devotees to makePradakshina which he felt was a very great aid to their sadhana.I respect that these may be the personal views of your correspondent , but Iam not very happy in him applying a general rule to those Devotees who lovethe Hill and see the Mountain as a form of the divine formlessness- a greatShiva Linga, a sacred place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, and whichwas the home of our beloved Bhagavan where he has left his subtle leavings.All very best wishes and warm regards in friendship,Yours in Bhagavan,Alan, "MIchael Cape-Meadows"<ramanatmosphere@ ...> wrote:>> > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who> completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another> devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt> that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the> contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the> recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced> below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it> was written.> > > > > Regards, MC-M> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = => > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate,> in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am> not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone> around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about> Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere> ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only> solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me]> but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel> through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary> staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the> devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times> their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana> devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his> devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did> not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the> hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no> corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he?> "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only> what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure> Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that> Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise.> Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those> which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of> any help. Until one realises this what can one say?>------------ --------- --------- ------ is supported by http://luthar. com/. New articles are addedthere on a continuous basis. Please register at http://luthar. com/. You willbe kept updated and get the new articles which are posted on the site verynicely formatted in your e-mail.Friends, after registering at http://luthar. com/, if you wish to contributeyour writing to the site, please let me know. Your articles should beoriginal, well written, using subtitles, and be carefully proofread andpolished. For a list of topics considered, please go to http://luthar. com/and take a look at the site. Thanks. Namaste and love to allHarsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Many thanks for your replies, every one of which seems to assume that the author has applied the term " jnani " to himself. He has done no such thing. How could he? The term is mine and mine alone, (and it is based on knowing the person over a period of many years) so I should be grateful if criticisms were directed to myself. That is no problem. It would have been interesting if somebody had actually read what the message said rather than jumping to conclusions and allowing their noses to follow the rubric of the post to the exclusion of all else. Regards, MC-M , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > My dear Harshaji, > > Thank you for your kind words, and the moving praises of our Sat-Guru, the beloved Sri Bhagavan. > > We all owe a tremendous debt to you for maintaining this site for ten years, and wisely.... all > Harsha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Dear Sir, I re read the letter, as far as the message, yes, internal realization is all that is relevant in the end. Agreed. Rafe Having said that, I remain ever grateful that I am being given the opportunity to go to Arunachala after 15 years of asking to go. , " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere wrote: > > Many thanks for your replies, every one of which seems to assume that the author has applied the term " jnani " to himself. He has done no such thing. How could he? The term is mine and mine alone, (and it is based on knowing the person over a period of many years) so I should be grateful if criticisms were directed to myself. > That is no problem. > > It would have been interesting if somebody had actually read what the message said rather than jumping to conclusions and allowing their noses to follow the rubric of the post to the exclusion of all else. > > Regards, > > MC-M > > , Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs@> wrote: > > > > My dear Harshaji, > > > > Thank you for your kind words, and the moving praises of our Sat-Guru, the beloved Sri Bhagavan. > > > > We all owe a tremendous debt to you for maintaining this site for ten years, and wisely.... all > > Harsha > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Harsha wrote: > > > Dear Alan-ji: > > Your wisdom and the ability to go to the heart of the matter when it comes > to the life and teachings of the great Sage of Arunachala, Bhagavan Sri > Ramana Maharshi, shines brightly. > > We are blessed to have you here Alan-ji. > > Sri Ramana once said something like the Guru never lets the devotee go. It > is up to everyone to turn within and with sincerity inquire into one's > nature. The ability to do that increases with effort and through > grace. Both > work hand in hand. Even the effort is due to grace only. One does what one > can to the best of one's ability. The Guru does the rest. There should > be no > doubt and worry. > > That one has heard of Sri Ramana means that one is blessed. That one has > read about Sri Ramana's life means one is blessed. That one follows the > teachings of Sri Ramana means one is blessed. That one keeps in one's > heart > devotion for Bhagavan means one is blessed. That one has company of other > devotees means one is blessed. > > This sangha is blessed by Bhagavan. All are blessed. > > Namaste and love to all > Harsha > oh yes! jai jai ramana, who by mere mention of his name, conveys his grace forming this company of friends jai ramana, whose mere remembrance elicits the purest and noblest in us paving the road to our very own one and only self which we never left. shabbat shalom all! @}->,->'-- grateful yosy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere wrote: > It would have been interesting if somebody had actually read what the message said rather than jumping to conclusions and allowing their noses to follow the rubric of the post to the exclusion of all else. > Dear Michael (Cape-Meadows) and All, Namaste The letter that you published recently from a third party was quite to the point regarding some of the dangers that we are all subject to, when it comes to the guru/devotee relationship, being the Guru a person, a place, a mountain, or a book. Those dangers (mainly attachment), as it seems, are quite harmless at the very first stages of this relationship, and I must say (although with some reserves) they are quite necessary even. It is the normal outcome of a mind turned outwards that finally " found " what seems to be the way, that " fell in love " with the most pure of forms of love. But at some point in time, that relationship should change. That is the point where we finally realize that the Guru (in whichever form) was only the mirror reflecting our own Essential and Natural Being. I believe the letter addressed those who feel more comfortable, after long period of time, with external security (in the form of the Guru) than with the internal responsibility. Those who will not make that extra effort of " let go " of my relationship with the Guru. Just a little bit like staying home in the family at 40! (even when our parents begged us to go away and live our life). On the other hand, when the realization that the Guru is " I " , that do not necessarily implies that we will cut out all forms of devotional relationships with our Beloved One, and forget everything completely. As an example we have Nisargadatta who continued to do puja to his Guru's image until the last days of his life. Or Bhagavan going around Arunachala, and many others living near The Hill, still experiencing, at the relative level, that beautiful energy emanating from that land of miracles. In any case, the letter is a strong statement, but out of context (would be nice to see what kind of devotee was the one who " appeared to be still wallowing in the throes of samsara " and which questions he discussed with the one who wrote the letter) sometimes one gets the feeling that is only one side of the equation, and so, it may appear a little extreme. I believe it's only because of the lack of putting it into context. Actually Bhagavan also sometimes (as the letter implies) was quite forceful when it came to deconstruct the egoic tendencies of the ones who approached him, but always with this keen observation as where the person stands in her/his understanding. It might be the case with the author of this letter Thanks for sharing it, and whoever wrote it, it's quite irrelevant to me, if there is some substance that we can learn from. Regards, Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Dear all, this is a letter worthy to ponder over I feel. Also if members hesitate to agree - I would like to invite them to read the original letter with an open mind - and not the statements following it, which seems me don't really get the point (sorry to say that). The letter could be a good pointer to one or the other to give more importance to the practice and less to all the trappings. Kind regards Gabriele (the critical one , " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere wrote: > > > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who > completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another > devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt > that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the > contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the > recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced > below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it > was written. > > > > > Regards, MC-M > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, > in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am > not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone > around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about > Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere > ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only > solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] > but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel > through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary > staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the > devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times > their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana > devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his > devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did > not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the > hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no > corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? > " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only > what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure > Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that > Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. > Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those > which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of > any help. Until one realises this what can one say? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 It is a beautiful letter, words spoken by one who understood something deeply. , " sadhaka1960 " <g.ebert wrote: > > Dear all, > > this is a letter worthy to ponder over I feel. > Also if members hesitate to agree - I would like to invite them to read the original letter with an open mind - and not the statements following it, which seems me don't really get the point (sorry to say that). The letter could be a good pointer to one or the other to give more importance to the practice and less to all the trappings. > > Kind regards > Gabriele (the critical one > > > > , " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere@> wrote: > > > > > > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who > > completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another > > devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt > > that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the > > contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the > > recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced > > below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it > > was written. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, MC-M > > > > > > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, > > in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am > > not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone > > around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about > > Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere > > ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only > > solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] > > but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel > > through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary > > staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the > > devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times > > their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana > > devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his > > devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did > > not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the > > hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no > > corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? > > " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only > > what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure > > Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that > > Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. > > Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those > > which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of > > any help. Until one realises this what can one say? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Dear Gabriele, I certainly agree with the anonymous writer's statements about Atma Vichara , and that being the only solution. All that is very well stated. But to say Arunachala is a mill stone around Devotees necks puts one on the wrong foot with the letter.Especially with those who devotedly love the Sacred Mountain and find it a source of great strength and an aid to Self Enquiry. I wonder if the writer has ever been there or is he a stay at home Devotee? All love, your brother in Bhagavan, Alan x , " sadhaka1960 " <g.ebert wrote: > > Dear all, > > this is a letter worthy to ponder over I feel. > Also if members hesitate to agree - I would like to invite them to read the original letter with an open mind - and not the statements following it, which seems me don't really get the point (sorry to say that). The letter could be a good pointer to one or the other to give more importance to the practice and less to all the trappings. > > Kind regards > Gabriele (the critical one > > > > , " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere@> wrote: > > > > > > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who > > completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another > > devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt > > that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the > > contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the > > recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced > > below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it > > was written. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, MC-M > > > > > > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, > > in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am > > not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone > > around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about > > Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere > > ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only > > solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] > > but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel > > through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary > > staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the > > devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times > > their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana > > devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his > > devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did > > not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the > > hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no > > corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? > > " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only > > what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure > > Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that > > Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. > > Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those > > which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of > > any help. Until one realises this what can one say? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 I am attaching the author's response to all your replies. Regards MC-M ======================================================================= The use of the word " immaterial " was misunderstood. It is a philosophical term. The warning, against reducing remembrance of Arunachala to mere habit and superstition, was ignored, in replies, and even reinforced. Arunachala's very etymology is an encouragement to vichara. aruna - the color of the morning in direct opposition to the darkness of night; the dawn of the I acala - immovable pradakshina is all about holding the 'I' as it dawns. This is the true meaning of Arunachala. ======================================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere wrote: > > I am attaching the author's response to all your replies. > Regards > MC-M > ===================================== > The use of the word " immaterial " was misunderstood. Dear Michael C-M, Namaste Don't you think it would be a good idea to invite your " mysterious " friend to join our sangha and be exposed to the questions and statements of " us mortals " ? It may save you some typing also... Yours In Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Dear Michael Cape-Meadows only now could read your post and before your mail asking for comments michael bindel completely agrees with what this sage wrote of course heshe is right no doubt about it why? whenever we take the finger for the whole we are "wrong" at the moment i do not remember the nice expression tku for your effort in sharing with our Sangha all the best michael bindel due to a general not working of the computer lines in this poor country the mail will be sent when it works again - MIchael Cape-Meadows Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:27 PM Letter from a Jnani A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it was written. Regards, MC-M = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness." Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help. Until one realises this what can one say? Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.21/2252 - Release 07/21/09 05:58:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 I do agree, The people travelling different paths to arrive at Ranamas feet speaks for itself. So rather than the 'wisdom' of the aftermath I prefer reading about somebodys way and arrival. As far as I see as a general statement this is applied/ narrow. 'He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold' Still this is not general words really, they are from one individual to another at a specific point in time, so it might very well be the exact words he needed to hear, but that part of the story is missing : ) Alan , " alan jacobs " <alanadamsjacobs wrote: > > Dear Michael, > > It is good to see a post from you again. > > I am a little apprehensive about this letter. Does he call himself a Jnani ? Robert Adams used to say that anyone who calls himself a Jnani isn't one because the 'I' which says 'I am a Jnani' is the one that has to go to be one. Jnani is an honorific term bestowed upon by others who perceive his or her enlightenment and feel it palpably. > > Regarding Arunachala, very many Devotees, myself included, find from this Sacred Divine Mountain a tremendous power and strength and a great aid in our quest whenever we visit. Ramana wrote his Marital Garland of Letters extolling the virtues of Arunachala, and encouraged his Devotees to make Pradakshina which he felt was a very great aid to their sadhana. > > I respect that these may be the personal views of your correspondent , but I am not very happy in him applying a general rule to those Devotees who love the Hill and see the Mountain as a form of the divine formlessness- a great Shiva Linga, a sacred place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, and which was the home of our beloved Bhagavan where he has left his subtle leavings. > > All very best wishes and warm regards in friendship, > > Yours in Bhagavan, > > Alan > > > > , " MIchael Cape-Meadows " <ramanatmosphere@> wrote: > > > > > > A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who > > completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another > > devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt > > that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the > > contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the > > recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced > > below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it > > was written. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, MC-M > > > > > > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, > > in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am > > not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone > > around the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about > > Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere > > ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only > > solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] > > but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel > > through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary > > staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the > > devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times > > their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana > > devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his > > devotees believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did > > not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the > > hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no > > corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? > > " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only > > what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure > > Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that > > Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. > > Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. > > Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those > > which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of > > any help. Until one realises this what can one say? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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