Letter from a Jñ�ni

[Guest guest]

"Dvaita and advaita are relative terms. They are based on a sense of duality. There is actually neither dvaita nor advaita. I am That I Am... Simple Being is the Self." (The Essential Teachings of Ramana Maharshi; A Visual Journey)

 

 

 

MIchael Cape-Meadows <ramanatmosphere Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:24:51 AM Letter from a JñÄni

 

A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it was written.

 

Regards, MC-M

 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone around the necks of devotees.. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his devotees

believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help. Until one realises this what can one say?

[Guest guest]

 

Al concepts dissolve into nothingness in the state of Experiencing !

 

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstoneman wrote:

Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstonemanRe: Letter from a JñÄni Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 6:17 PM

 

 

"Dvaita and advaita are relative terms. They are based on a sense of duality. There is actually neither dvaita nor advaita. I am That I Am... Simple Being is the Self." (The Essential Teachings of Ramana Maharshi; A Visual Journey)

 

 

 

MIchael Cape-Meadows <ramanatmosphere@ .co. uk>Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:24:51 AM Letter from a JñÄni

 

A private letter has come into my hands from a very old devotee who completed atma vichara well over a decade ago. It is written to another devotee who appears to be wallowing in the throes of samsara. As I felt that the contents were of universal appeal I wrote requesting that the contents of the letter be posted to this group. The sender and the recipient have given permission for this; accordingly it is reproduced below. Apart from the excision of personal details, it is posted as it was written.

 

Regards, MC-M

 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, in that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am not one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone around the necks of devotees.. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana's path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual and superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does not solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish a perspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believed in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way to establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines. From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that he actually believed in the things his devotees

believed in. If one reads his body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to those who came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would take hold. Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind folks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. " Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife. Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements are dismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, which reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help. Until one realises this what can one say?

[Guest guest]

Dear all...pranams:

 

It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with different devotees.

Those which are Ramana's " primary statements " naturally are

different to different people. In fact, his primary statements

or the primary statements of almost any spiritual or other written

work can be presented as such according to the one who

propounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate with

Ramana's quotes on surrender.

 

Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you posted would

have universal appeal, and you posted it with that intention, a

good intention. But not everyone sees it only that way. The

statements below are of the " nothing ever happened. " school

of thought, just as much a thought and belief as all of the others

dismissed as useless in the body of the letter, all rising from

the mind and ending there as well. Whatever the true reality

is will always remain a mystery to the mind of the embodied

soul, no matter how close one might come to that Truth

conceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called Grace, and it

is not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I knew what

it was called.

 

I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in the hierarchy

often superimposed upon spiritual belief systems, to the tune

of " my dog is better than your dog. " :-) both within a particular

belief system and directed externally to other philosophies as well.

Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to different

souls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to speculate

beyond this statement, as for us to infer what he was thinking

or why he did things the way he did them is almost ludicrous!

Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to justify our own

beliefs about what he meant and how that applies to our own path.

 

So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart. Don't go if it

does not please your heart. But all this judgment of one's own

and others' advancement on and understanding of the " path "

just tends to engender negative thoughts and emotions within,

hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere intellectual grasp of

any philosophical concept is just that...mere in comparison to

the unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I also believe

in Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part of Him, but

that He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop of water

in a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head in humility.

 

Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming with posts

extolling the virtues of this chosen path, that deity, this

philosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the incongruity of dvaita

and advaita is being " debated. " My brain hurts!!! But my heart

is full of devotion. So it never happened? All I can say is that

there is a whole lot of nothing going on :-)

 

Having said that, and since this is a list devoted to Ramana,

I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been quoted

as actually being some of his words on surrender and atma

vichara.

 

 

In His Service,

 

Radhe

 

Hare Krishna!!!

 

-------------------------------

From http://www.hinduism.co.za/bhaktisur.htm

 

Question: What is unconditional surrender?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask

questions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding

on to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the

highest power. These are the only two ways for realization.

 

Question: Does not total or complete surrender require that one should not

have left even the desire for liberation or God?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does require that you have no

desire of your own. You must be satisfied with whatever God gives you

and that means having no desires of your own.

 

Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point, I want to know what the

steps are by which I could achieve surrender.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is looking into the source of

‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is feeling ‘I am helpless by

myself, God alone is all-powerful and except by throwing myself completely

on Him, there is no other means of safety for me.’ By this method one

gradually develops the conviction that God alone exists and that the ego

does not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender is

another name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.

 

Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to adopt that path.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: By whatever path you go, you will have to lose

yourself in the One. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage

'‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.

 

The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge). In Soham (the affirmation

of ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In surrender there is Advaita

(non-dualism). In the Reality there is neither Dvaita nor Advaita, but that

which is. Surrender appears easy because people imagine that, once they

say with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put their burdens on their Lord, they

can be free and do what they like. But the fact is that you can have no

likes or dislikes after your surrender; your will should become completely

non-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place. The death of the ego in this

way brings about a state, which is not different from Jnana (knowledge). So

by whatever path you may go, you must come to Jnana or oneness.

 

Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is the best which appears

easiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally good as they lead to the

same goal, which is the merging of the ego in the Self. What the Bhakta

(devotee) calls surrender, the man who does Vichara (self-enquiry) calls

Jnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take the ego back to the source

from which it sprang and make it merge there.

 

Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a seeker?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender unreservedly. One of two

things must be done. Either surrender because you admit your inability and

require a higher power to help you, or investigate the cause of misery by

going to the source and merging into the Self. Either way you will be free

from misery. God never forsakes one who has surrendered.

 

Question: What is the drift of the mind after surrender?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind raising the question?

 

Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I hope that increasing grace

is experienced.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. So

long as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire. That is also

personality. If this goes the Self is found to shine forth pure. The sense

of doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves.

 

‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here stillness is total surrender without

a vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be no

agitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense of

doership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet. There ‘knowing’

means ‘being’. It is not the relative knowledge involving the triads,

knowledge, knowing and known.

 

Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am the Supreme Being’ helpful?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I am’ is God, not thinking ‘I

am God’.

Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’. ‘Know I am God’, it is said,

and not

‘Think I am God’.

 

All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar from a brown sugar image

of Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food offering) to the same Lord

Ganesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all possessions to God.

Were they yours that you could offer them? At best, you can only say, 'I

falsely imagined till now that all these which are yours were mine. Now I

realize they are yours. I shall no more act as if they are mine.’ This

knowledge that there is nothing but God or Self, that I or mine don’t exist

and that only the Self exists, is Jnana (knowledge). Thus there is no

difference between Bhakti and Jnana. Bhakti is Jnana Mata (devotion is

the mother of knowledge).

 

-------

 

The text of the letter....

 

Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, in

that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am not

one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone around

the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana's

path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual and

superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does not

solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish a

perspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believed

in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way to

establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods

of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines.

From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that he

actually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads his

body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to those

who came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would take

hold.

 

Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind

folks or can he? " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know

God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure

Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. "

Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife.

Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements are

dismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, which

reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help. Until one realises this what

can one say?

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the thorough post.

I have always alternated between surrender and inquiry.

Obviously my surrender has not been 100 percent, or I would no longer need to practice surrender.

I make no claims about being liberated. I don't even know if such a permanent state exists, although I attribute that state as Ramana's state. All of us here, I assume want liberation, and not just to advance spiritually in order to have a certain type of experience or life... this is the assumption that i speak to all of you here. That you want liberation and only liberation. Since we are mental cratures of habit, we will continue to define with words what that state is, until we do not anymore. Can we all agree at least on this: Ramana's primary teaching was transmitted without words?

 

 

 

Radhe <shaantih Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:56:49 PMRe: Letter from a JñÄni

Dear all...pranams:It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with different devotees.Those which are Ramana's "primary statements" naturally aredifferent to different people. In fact, his primary statementsor the primary statements of almost any spiritual or other writtenwork can be presented as such according to the one whopropounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate withRamana's quotes on surrender.Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you posted wouldhave universal appeal, and you posted it with that intention, agood intention. But not everyone sees it only that way. Thestatements below are of the "nothing ever happened." schoolof thought, just as much a thought and belief as all of the othersdismissed as useless in the body of the letter, all rising fromthe mind and ending there as well. Whatever the true realityis will always remain a mystery to the mind of the

embodiedsoul, no matter how close one might come to that Truthconceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called Grace, and itis not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I knew whatit was called.I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in the hierarchyoften superimposed upon spiritual belief systems, to the tuneof " my dog is better than your dog." :-) both within a particularbelief system and directed externally to other philosophies as well.Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to differentsouls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to speculatebeyond this statement, as for us to infer what he was thinkingor why he did things the way he did them is almost ludicrous!Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to justify our ownbeliefs about what he meant and how that applies to our own path.So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart. Don't go if

itdoes not please your heart. But all this judgment of one's ownand others' advancement on and understanding of the "path"just tends to engender negative thoughts and emotions within,hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere intellectual grasp ofany philosophical concept is just that...mere in comparison tothe unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I also believein Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part of Him, butthat He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop of waterin a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head in humility.Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming with postsextolling the virtues of this chosen path, that deity, thisphilosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the incongruity of dvaitaand advaita is being "debated." My brain hurts!!! But my heartis full of devotion. So it never happened? All I can say is thatthere is a whole lot of nothing going on

:-)Having said that, and since this is a list devoted to Ramana,I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been quotedas actually being some of his words on surrender and atmavichara.In His Service,RadheHare Krishna!!!------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -From http://www.hinduism .co.za/bhaktisur .htmQuestion: What is unconditional surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to askquestions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holdingon to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to thehighest power. These are the only two ways for realization.Question: Does not total or complete surrender require that one should nothave left even the desire for liberation or

God?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does require that you have nodesire of your own. You must be satisfied with whatever God gives youand that means having no desires of your own.Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point, I want to know what thesteps are by which I could achieve surrender.Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is looking into the source of‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is feeling ‘I am helpless bymyself, God alone is all-powerful and except by throwing myself completelyon Him, there is no other means of safety for me.’ By this method onegradually develops the conviction that God alone exists and that the egodoes not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender isanother name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to adopt that path.Sri Ramana Maharshi: By

whatever path you go, you will have to loseyourself in the One. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage'‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge). In Soham (the affirmationof ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In surrender there is Advaita(non-dualism) . In the Reality there is neither Dvaita nor Advaita, but thatwhich is. Surrender appears easy because people imagine that, once theysay with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put their burdens on their Lord, theycan be free and do what they like. But the fact is that you can have nolikes or dislikes after your surrender; your will should become completelynon-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place. The death of the ego in thisway brings about a state, which is not different from Jnana (knowledge). Soby whatever path you may go, you must come to Jnana or

oneness.Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is the best which appearseasiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally good as they lead to thesame goal, which is the merging of the ego in the Self. What the Bhakta(devotee) calls surrender, the man who does Vichara (self-enquiry) callsJnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take the ego back to the sourcefrom which it sprang and make it merge there.Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a seeker?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender unreservedly. One of twothings must be done. Either surrender because you admit your inability andrequire a higher power to help you, or investigate the cause of misery bygoing to the source and merging into the Self. Either way you will be freefrom misery. God never forsakes one who has surrendered.Question: What is

the drift of the mind after surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind raising the question?Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I hope that increasing graceis experienced.Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. Solong as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire. That is alsopersonality. If this goes the Self is found to shine forth pure. The senseof doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves.‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here stillness is total surrender withouta vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be noagitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense ofdoership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet. There ‘knowing’means ‘being’. It is not the relative knowledge involving the triads,knowledge, knowing and

known.Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am the Supreme Being’ helpful?Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I am’ is God, not thinking ‘I am God’.Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’. ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not‘Think I am God’.All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar from a brown sugar imageof Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food offering) to the same LordGanesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all possessions to God.Were they yours that you could offer them? At best, you can only say, 'Ifalsely imagined till now that all these which are yours were mine. Now Irealize they are yours. I shall no more act as if they are mine.’ Thisknowledge that there is nothing but God or Self, that I or mine don’t existand that only the Self exists, is Jnana (knowledge). Thus there is nodifference between Bhakti and

Jnana. Bhakti is Jnana Mata (devotion isthe mother of knowledge).------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -The text of the letter....Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, inthat you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am notone. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone aroundthe necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana'spath. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual andsuperstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does notsolve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish aperspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believedin the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way toestablishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Godsof all shapes

and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines.From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that heactually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads hisbody of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to thosewho came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would takehold.Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remindfolks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not knowGod. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that PureConsciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. "Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife.Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements aredismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, whichreiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help.

Until one realises this whatcan one say?

[Guest guest]

Dear Rafe,

 

Yes. He did sayt hat Silence was the highest Upadesa. But he also used words to lead his devotees onwards- hence the answers to Questions, the 40 and 30 verses etc. etc.

 

All Love, in Him,

 

Alan--- On Sat, 25/7/09, Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstoneman wrote:

Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstonemanRe: Letter from a JñÄni Date: Saturday, 25 July, 2009, 9:21 PM

 

 

Thank you for the thorough post.

I have always alternated between surrender and inquiry.

Obviously my surrender has not been 100 percent, or I would no longer need to practice surrender.

I make no claims about being liberated. I don't even know if such a permanent state exists, although I attribute that state as Ramana's state. All of us here, I assume want liberation, and not just to advance spiritually in order to have a certain type of experience or life... this is the assumption that i speak to all of you here. That you want liberation and only liberation. Since we are mental cratures of habit, we will continue to define with words what that state is, until we do not anymore. Can we all agree at least on this: Ramana's primary teaching was transmitted without words?

 

 

 

Radhe <shaantih (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:56:49 PMRe: Letter from a JñÄni

Dear all...pranams:It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with different devotees.Those which are Ramana's "primary statements" naturally aredifferent to different people. In fact, his primary statementsor the primary statements of almost any spiritual or other writtenwork can be presented as such according to the one whopropounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate withRamana's quotes on surrender.Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you posted wouldhave universal appeal, and you posted it with that intention, agood intention.. But not everyone sees it only that way. Thestatements below are of the "nothing ever happened." schoolof thought, just as much a thought and belief as all of the othersdismissed as useless in the body of the letter, all rising fromthe mind and ending there as well. Whatever the true realityis will always remain a mystery to the mind of the

embodiedsoul, no matter how close one might come to that Truthconceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called Grace, and itis not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I knew whatit was called.I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in the hierarchyoften superimposed upon spiritual belief systems, to the tuneof " my dog is better than your dog." :-) both within a particularbelief system and directed externally to other philosophies as well.Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to differentsouls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to speculatebeyond this statement, as for us to infer what he was thinkingor why he did things the way he did them is almost ludicrous!Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to justify our ownbeliefs about what he meant and how that applies to our own path.So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart. Don't go if

itdoes not please your heart. But all this judgment of one's ownand others' advancement on and understanding of the "path"just tends to engender negative thoughts and emotions within,hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere intellectual grasp ofany philosophical concept is just that...mere in comparison tothe unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I also believein Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part of Him, butthat He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop of waterin a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head in humility.Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming with postsextolling the virtues of this chosen path, that deity, thisphilosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the incongruity of dvaitaand advaita is being "debated." My brain hurts!!! But my heartis full of devotion. So it never happened? All I can say is thatthere is a whole lot of nothing going on

:-)Having said that, and since this is a list devoted to Ramana,I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been quotedas actually being some of his words on surrender and atmavichara.In His Service,RadheHare Krishna!!!------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -From http://www.hinduism .co.za/bhaktisur .htmQuestion: What is unconditional surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to askquestions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holdingon to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to thehighest power. These are the only two ways for realization.Question: Does not total or complete surrender require that one should nothave left even the desire for liberation or

God?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does require that you have nodesire of your own. You must be satisfied with whatever God gives youand that means having no desires of your own.Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point, I want to know what thesteps are by which I could achieve surrender.Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is looking into the source of‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is feeling ‘I am helpless bymyself, God alone is all-powerful and except by throwing myself completelyon Him, there is no other means of safety for me.’ By this method onegradually develops the conviction that God alone exists and that the egodoes not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender isanother name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to adopt that path.Sri Ramana Maharshi: By

whatever path you go, you will have to loseyourself in the One. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage'‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge). In Soham (the affirmationof ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In surrender there is Advaita(non-dualism) . In the Reality there is neither Dvaita nor Advaita, but thatwhich is. Surrender appears easy because people imagine that, once theysay with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put their burdens on their Lord, theycan be free and do what they like. But the fact is that you can have nolikes or dislikes after your surrender; your will should become completelynon-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place. The death of the ego in thisway brings about a state, which is not different from Jnana (knowledge). Soby whatever path you may go, you must come to Jnana or

oneness.Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is the best which appearseasiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally good as they lead to thesame goal, which is the merging of the ego in the Self. What the Bhakta(devotee) calls surrender, the man who does Vichara (self-enquiry) callsJnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take the ego back to the sourcefrom which it sprang and make it merge there.Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a seeker?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender unreservedly. One of twothings must be done. Either surrender because you admit your inability andrequire a higher power to help you, or investigate the cause of misery bygoing to the source and merging into the Self. Either way you will be freefrom misery. God never forsakes one who has surrendered.Question: What is

the drift of the mind after surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind raising the question?Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I hope that increasing graceis experienced.Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. Solong as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire. That is alsopersonality. If this goes the Self is found to shine forth pure. The senseof doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves.‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here stillness is total surrender withouta vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be noagitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense ofdoership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet. There ‘knowing’means ‘being’. It is not the relative knowledge involving the triads,knowledge, knowing and

known.Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am the Supreme Being’ helpful?Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I am’ is God, not thinking ‘I am God’.Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’. ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not‘Think I am God’.All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar from a brown sugar imageof Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food offering) to the same LordGanesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all possessions to God.Were they yours that you could offer them? At best, you can only say, 'Ifalsely imagined till now that all these which are yours were mine. Now Irealize they are yours. I shall no more act as if they are mine.’ Thisknowledge that there is nothing but God or Self, that I or mine don’t existand that only the Self exists, is Jnana (knowledge). Thus there is nodifference between Bhakti and

Jnana. Bhakti is Jnana Mata (devotion isthe mother of knowledge).------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -The text of the letter....Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, inthat you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am notone. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone aroundthe necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana'spath. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual andsuperstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does notsolve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish aperspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believedin the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way toestablishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Godsof all shapes

and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines.From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that heactually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads hisbody of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to thosewho came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would takehold.Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remindfolks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not knowGod. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that PureConsciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. "Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife.Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements aredismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, whichreiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help.

Until one realises this whatcan one say?

[Guest guest]

---- Original message ----

>Date:   Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:41:45 +0000 (GMT)

>   Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs

>Subject:   Re: Letter from a

JñÄni

>To:  

>

>

>

> Dear Rafe,

>

> Yes. He did sayt hat Silence was the highest

> Upadesa. But he also used words to lead his devotees

> onwards- hence the answers to Questions, the 40 and

> 30 verses etc. etc.

>

> All Love, in Him,

>

> Alan

>

 

 

yes... as one removes torn with a thorn, and

then discards both. the truth/silence remains as

ever, pristine and unaffected.

 

Thorny Words

 

bless you, oh beloved,

for inspiring the words of the wise

without which i could not

discard all words

like thorns removing thorns…

and for ever after

to melt and to dissolve

within your ever-present

silent

loving

laughter.

 

oh beloved,

bless you a million times

for revealing to the simple

what is concealed

forever

from the intelligent

and clever!

 

 

 

jay ramana-ji!

 

in love,

yosy

 

 

 

 

 

> --- On Sat, 25/7/09, Rafe Stoneman

> <rafaelstoneman wrote:

>

> Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstoneman

> Re: Letter

> from a JñÄni

>

> Saturday, 25 July, 2009, 9:21 PM

>

>

> Thank you for the thorough post.

> I have always alternated between surrender and

> inquiry.

> Obviously my surrender has not been 100 percent,

> or I would no longer need to practice surrender.

> I make no claims about being liberated. I don't

> even know if such a permanent state exists,

> although I attribute that state as Ramana's state.

> All of us here, I assume want liberation, and not

> just to advance spiritually in order to have a

> certain type of experience or life... this is the

> assumption that i speak to all of you here. That

> you want liberation and only liberation. Since we

> are mental cratures of habit, we will continue to

> define with words what that state is, until we do

> not anymore. Can we all agree at least on this:

> Ramana's primary teaching was transmitted without

> words?

>

> ---------------

>

> Radhe <shaantih (AT) comcast (DOT) net>

>

> Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:56:49 PM

> Re: Letter

> from a JñÄni

>

> Dear all...pranams:

>

> It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with

> different devotees.

> Those which are Ramana's " primary statements "

> naturally are

> different to different people. In fact, his

> primary statements

> or the primary statements of almost any spiritual

> or other written

> work can be presented as such according to the one

> who

> propounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate

> with

> Ramana's quotes on surrender.

>

> Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you

> posted would

> have universal appeal, and you posted it with that

> intention, a

> good intention.. But not everyone sees it only

> that way. The

> statements below are of the " nothing ever

> happened. " school

> of thought, just as much a thought and belief as

> all of the others

> dismissed as useless in the body of the letter,

> all rising from

> the mind and ending there as well. Whatever the

> true reality

> is will always remain a mystery to the mind of the

> embodied

> soul, no matter how close one might come to that

> Truth

> conceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called

> Grace, and it

> is not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I

> knew what

> it was called.

>

> I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in

> the hierarchy

> often superimposed upon spiritual belief systems,

> to the tune

> of " my dog is better than your dog. " :-) both

> within a particular

> belief system and directed externally to other

> philosophies as well.

> Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to

> different

> souls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to

> speculate

> beyond this statement, as for us to infer what he

> was thinking

> or why he did things the way he did them is almost

> ludicrous!

> Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to

> justify our own

> beliefs about what he meant and how that applies

> to our own path.

>

> So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart.

> Don't go if it

> does not please your heart. But all this judgment

> of one's own

> and others' advancement on and understanding of

> the " path "

> just tends to engender negative thoughts and

> emotions within,

> hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere

> intellectual grasp of

> any philosophical concept is just that...mere in

> comparison to

> the unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I

> also believe

> in Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part

> of Him, but

> that He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop

> of water

> in a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head

> in humility.

>

> Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming

> with posts

> extolling the virtues of this chosen path, that

> deity, this

> philosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the

> incongruity of dvaita

> and advaita is being " debated. " My brain hurts!!!

> But my heart

> is full of devotion. So it never happened? All I

> can say is that

> there is a whole lot of nothing going on :-)

>

> Having said that, and since this is a list devoted

> to Ramana,

> I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been

> quoted

> as actually being some of his words on surrender

> and atma

> vichara.

>

> In His Service,

>

> Radhe

>

> Hare Krishna!!!

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- -

> From http://www.hinduism .co.za/bhaktisur .htm

>

> Question: What is unconditional surrender?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself

> there will be no one to ask

> questions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts

> are eliminated by holding

> on to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders

> oneself unconditionally to the

> highest power. These are the only two ways for

> realization.

>

> Question: Does not total or complete surrender

> require that one should not

> have left even the desire for liberation or God?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does

> require that you have no

> desire of your own. You must be satisfied with

> whatever God gives you

> and that means having no desires of your own.

>

> Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point,

> I want to know what the

> steps are by which I could achieve surrender.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is

> looking into the source of

> ‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is

> feeling ‘I am helpless by

> myself, God alone is all-powerful and except by

> throwing myself completely

> on Him, there is no other means of safety for

> me.’ By this method one

> gradually develops the conviction that God alone

> exists and that the ego

> does not count. Both methods lead to the same

> goal. Complete surrender is

> another name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.

>

> Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to

> adopt that path.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: By whatever path you go, you

> will have to lose

> yourself in the One. Surrender is complete only

> when you reach the stage

> '‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.

>

> The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge).

> In Soham (the affirmation

> of ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In

> surrender there is Advaita

> (non-dualism) . In the Reality there is neither

> Dvaita nor Advaita, but that

> which is. Surrender appears easy because people

> imagine that, once they

> say with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put

> their burdens on their Lord, they

> can be free and do what they like. But the fact is

> that you can have no

> likes or dislikes after your surrender; your will

> should become completely

> non-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place.

> The death of the ego in this

> way brings about a state, which is not different

> from Jnana (knowledge). So

> by whatever path you may go, you must come to

> Jnana or oneness.

>

> Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is

> the best which appears

> easiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally

> good as they lead to the

> same goal, which is the merging of the ego in the

> Self. What the Bhakta

> (devotee) calls surrender, the man who does

> Vichara (self-enquiry) calls

> Jnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take

> the ego back to the source

> from which it sprang and make it merge there.

>

> Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a

> seeker?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender

> unreservedly. One of two

> things must be done. Either surrender because you

> admit your inability and

> require a higher power to help you, or investigate

> the cause of misery by

> going to the source and merging into the Self.

> Either way you will be free

> from misery. God never forsakes one who has

> surrendered.

>

> Question: What is the drift of the mind after

> surrender?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind

> raising the question?

>

> Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I

> hope that increasing grace

> is experienced.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be

> done with the desire. So

> long as the sense of doership is retained there is

> the desire. That is also

> personality. If this goes the Self is found to

> shine forth pure. The sense

> of doership is the bondage and not the actions

> themselves.

>

> ‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here

> stillness is total surrender without

> a vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail

> and there will be no

> agitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause

> of desire, the sense of

> doership and personality. If that is stopped there

> is quiet. There ‘knowing’

> means ‘being’. It is not the relative

> knowledge involving the triads,

> knowledge, knowing and known.

>

> Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am

> the Supreme Being’ helpful?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I

> am’ is God, not thinking ‘I am God’.

> Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’.

> ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not

> ‘Think I am God’.

>

> All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar

> from a brown sugar image

> of Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food

> offering) to the same Lord

> Ganesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all

> possessions to God.

> Were they yours that you could offer them? At

> best, you can only say, 'I

> falsely imagined till now that all these which are

> yours were mine. Now I

> realize they are yours. I shall no more act as if

> they are mine.’ This

> knowledge that there is nothing but God or Self,

> that I or mine don’t exist

> and that only the Self exists, is Jnana

> (knowledge). Thus there is no

> difference between Bhakti and Jnana. Bhakti is

> Jnana Mata (devotion is

> the mother of knowledge).

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- -

>

> The text of the letter....

>

> Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you

> were very fortunate, in

> that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala

> fairly often. I am not

> one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has

> become a millstone around

> the necks of devotees. They have come to have

> false ideas about Ramana's

> path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has

> become mere ritual and

> superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and

> only solution. It does not

> solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me]

> but it does establish a

> perspective which effects a strategy to travel

> through life. Ramana believed

> in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging

> post on the way to

> establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the

> devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods

> of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief

> in other disciplines.

> From this it appears that Ramana devotees have

> extrapolated that he

> actually believed in the things his devotees

> believed in. If one reads his

> body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a

> certain leeway to those

> who came to ask advice in the hope that his

> teaching of vichara would take

> hold.

>

> Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana

> can no longer remind

> folks or can he? " Leave God alone. Speak for

> yourself. You do not know

> God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart

> from you? He is that Pure

> Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You

> are that Consciousness. "

> Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise.

> Confusion is now rife.

> Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's

> primary statements are

> dismissed. Primary statements are those which

> reaffirm ajatavada, which

> reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help.

> Until one realises this what

> can one say?

[Guest guest]

Ramana was

Ramana is

Unconditional Love

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, <yosyflug wrote:

>

>

>

> ---- Original message ----

> >Date:   Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:41:45 +0000 (GMT)

> >   Alan Jacobs <alanadamsjacobs

> >Subject:   Re: Letter from a

> JñÄni

> >To:  

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Rafe,

> >

> > Yes. He did sayt hat Silence was the highest

> > Upadesa. But he also used words to lead his devotees

> > onwards- hence the answers to Questions, the 40 and

> > 30 verses etc. etc.

> >

> > All Love, in Him,

> >

> > Alan

> >

>

>

> yes... as one removes torn with a thorn, and

> then discards both. the truth/silence remains as

> ever, pristine and unaffected.

>

> Thorny Words

>

> bless you, oh beloved,

> for inspiring the words of the wise

> without which i could not

> discard all words

> like thorns removing thorns…

> and for ever after

> to melt and to dissolve

> within your ever-present

> silent

> loving

> laughter.

>

> oh beloved,

> bless you a million times

> for revealing to the simple

> what is concealed

> forever

> from the intelligent

> and clever!

>

>

>

> jay ramana-ji!

>

> in love,

> yosy

>

>

>

>

>

> > --- On Sat, 25/7/09, Rafe Stoneman

> > <rafaelstoneman wrote:

> >

> > Rafe Stoneman <rafaelstoneman

> > Re: Letter

> > from a JñÄni

> >

> > Saturday, 25 July, 2009, 9:21 PM

> >

> >

> > Thank you for the thorough post.

> > I have always alternated between surrender and

> > inquiry.

> > Obviously my surrender has not been 100 percent,

> > or I would no longer need to practice surrender.

> > I make no claims about being liberated. I don't

> > even know if such a permanent state exists,

> > although I attribute that state as Ramana's state.

> > All of us here, I assume want liberation, and not

> > just to advance spiritually in order to have a

> > certain type of experience or life... this is the

> > assumption that i speak to all of you here. That

> > you want liberation and only liberation. Since we

> > are mental cratures of habit, we will continue to

> > define with words what that state is, until we do

> > not anymore. Can we all agree at least on this:

> > Ramana's primary teaching was transmitted without

> > words?

> >

> > ---------------

> >

> > Radhe <shaantih (AT) comcast (DOT) net>

> >

> > Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:56:49 PM

> > Re: Letter

> > from a JñÄni

> >

> > Dear all...pranams:

> >

> > It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with

> > different devotees.

> > Those which are Ramana's " primary statements "

> > naturally are

> > different to different people. In fact, his

> > primary statements

> > or the primary statements of almost any spiritual

> > or other written

> > work can be presented as such according to the one

> > who

> > propounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate

> > with

> > Ramana's quotes on surrender.

> >

> > Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you

> > posted would

> > have universal appeal, and you posted it with that

> > intention, a

> > good intention.. But not everyone sees it only

> > that way. The

> > statements below are of the " nothing ever

> > happened. " school

> > of thought, just as much a thought and belief as

> > all of the others

> > dismissed as useless in the body of the letter,

> > all rising from

> > the mind and ending there as well. Whatever the

> > true reality

> > is will always remain a mystery to the mind of the

> > embodied

> > soul, no matter how close one might come to that

> > Truth

> > conceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called

> > Grace, and it

> > is not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I

> > knew what

> > it was called.

> >

> > I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in

> > the hierarchy

> > often superimposed upon spiritual belief systems,

> > to the tune

> > of " my dog is better than your dog. " :-) both

> > within a particular

> > belief system and directed externally to other

> > philosophies as well.

> > Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to

> > different

> > souls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to

> > speculate

> > beyond this statement, as for us to infer what he

> > was thinking

> > or why he did things the way he did them is almost

> > ludicrous!

> > Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to

> > justify our own

> > beliefs about what he meant and how that applies

> > to our own path.

> >

> > So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart.

> > Don't go if it

> > does not please your heart. But all this judgment

> > of one's own

> > and others' advancement on and understanding of

> > the " path "

> > just tends to engender negative thoughts and

> > emotions within,

> > hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere

> > intellectual grasp of

> > any philosophical concept is just that...mere in

> > comparison to

> > the unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I

> > also believe

> > in Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part

> > of Him, but

> > that He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop

> > of water

> > in a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head

> > in humility.

> >

> > Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming

> > with posts

> > extolling the virtues of this chosen path, that

> > deity, this

> > philosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the

> > incongruity of dvaita

> > and advaita is being " debated. " My brain hurts!!!

> > But my heart

> > is full of devotion. So it never happened? All I

> > can say is that

> > there is a whole lot of nothing going on :-)

> >

> > Having said that, and since this is a list devoted

> > to Ramana,

> > I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been

> > quoted

> > as actually being some of his words on surrender

> > and atma

> > vichara.

> >

> > In His Service,

> >

> > Radhe

> >

> > Hare Krishna!!!

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> > --------- --------- -

> > From http://www.hinduism .co.za/bhaktisur .htm

> >

> > Question: What is unconditional surrender?

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself

> > there will be no one to ask

> > questions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts

> > are eliminated by holding

> > on to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders

> > oneself unconditionally to the

> > highest power. These are the only two ways for

> > realization.

> >

> > Question: Does not total or complete surrender

> > require that one should not

> > have left even the desire for liberation or God?

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does

> > require that you have no

> > desire of your own. You must be satisfied with

> > whatever God gives you

> > and that means having no desires of your own.

> >

> > Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point,

> > I want to know what the

> > steps are by which I could achieve surrender.

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is

> > looking into the source of

> > ‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is

> > feeling ‘I am helpless by

> > myself, God alone is all-powerful and except by

> > throwing myself completely

> > on Him, there is no other means of safety for

> > me.’ By this method one

> > gradually develops the conviction that God alone

> > exists and that the ego

> > does not count. Both methods lead to the same

> > goal. Complete surrender is

> > another name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.

> >

> > Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to

> > adopt that path.

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: By whatever path you go, you

> > will have to lose

> > yourself in the One. Surrender is complete only

> > when you reach the stage

> > '‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.

> >

> > The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge).

> > In Soham (the affirmation

> > of ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In

> > surrender there is Advaita

> > (non-dualism) . In the Reality there is neither

> > Dvaita nor Advaita, but that

> > which is. Surrender appears easy because people

> > imagine that, once they

> > say with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put

> > their burdens on their Lord, they

> > can be free and do what they like. But the fact is

> > that you can have no

> > likes or dislikes after your surrender; your will

> > should become completely

> > non-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place.

> > The death of the ego in this

> > way brings about a state, which is not different

> > from Jnana (knowledge). So

> > by whatever path you may go, you must come to

> > Jnana or oneness.

> >

> > Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is

> > the best which appears

> > easiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally

> > good as they lead to the

> > same goal, which is the merging of the ego in the

> > Self. What the Bhakta

> > (devotee) calls surrender, the man who does

> > Vichara (self-enquiry) calls

> > Jnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take

> > the ego back to the source

> > from which it sprang and make it merge there.

> >

> > Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a

> > seeker?

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender

> > unreservedly. One of two

> > things must be done. Either surrender because you

> > admit your inability and

> > require a higher power to help you, or investigate

> > the cause of misery by

> > going to the source and merging into the Self.

> > Either way you will be free

> > from misery. God never forsakes one who has

> > surrendered.

> >

> > Question: What is the drift of the mind after

> > surrender?

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind

> > raising the question?

> >

> > Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I

> > hope that increasing grace

> > is experienced.

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be

> > done with the desire. So

> > long as the sense of doership is retained there is

> > the desire. That is also

> > personality. If this goes the Self is found to

> > shine forth pure. The sense

> > of doership is the bondage and not the actions

> > themselves.

> >

> > ‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here

> > stillness is total surrender without

> > a vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail

> > and there will be no

> > agitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause

> > of desire, the sense of

> > doership and personality. If that is stopped there

> > is quiet. There ‘knowing’

> > means ‘being’. It is not the relative

> > knowledge involving the triads,

> > knowledge, knowing and known.

> >

> > Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am

> > the Supreme Being’ helpful?

> >

> > Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I

> > am’ is God, not thinking ‘I am God’.

> > Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’.

> > ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not

> > ‘Think I am God’.

> >

> > All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar

> > from a brown sugar image

> > of Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food

> > offering) to the same Lord

> > Ganesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all

> > possessions to God.

> > Were they yours that you could offer them? At

> > best, you can only say, 'I

> > falsely imagined till now that all these which are

> > yours were mine. Now I

> > realize they are yours. I shall no more act as if

> > they are mine.’ This

> > knowledge that there is nothing but God or Self,

> > that I or mine don’t exist

> > and that only the Self exists, is Jnana

> > (knowledge). Thus there is no

> > difference between Bhakti and Jnana. Bhakti is

> > Jnana Mata (devotion is

> > the mother of knowledge).

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> > --------- --------- -

> >

> > The text of the letter....

> >

> > Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you

> > were very fortunate, in

> > that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala

> > fairly often. I am not

> > one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has

> > become a millstone around

> > the necks of devotees. They have come to have

> > false ideas about Ramana's

> > path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has

> > become mere ritual and

> > superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and

> > only solution. It does not

> > solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me]

> > but it does establish a

> > perspective which effects a strategy to travel

> > through life. Ramana believed

> > in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging

> > post on the way to

> > establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the

> > devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods

> > of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief

> > in other disciplines.

> > From this it appears that Ramana devotees have

> > extrapolated that he

> > actually believed in the things his devotees

> > believed in. If one reads his

> > body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a

> > certain leeway to those

> > who came to ask advice in the hope that his

> > teaching of vichara would take

> > hold.

> >

> > Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana

> > can no longer remind

> > folks or can he? " Leave God alone. Speak for

> > yourself. You do not know

> > God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart

> > from you? He is that Pure

> > Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You

> > are that Consciousness. "

> > Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise.

> > Confusion is now rife.

> > Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's

> > primary statements are

> > dismissed. Primary statements are those which

> > reaffirm ajatavada, which

> > reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help.

> > Until one realises this what

> > can one say?

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Radheji ...

 

Beautiful post...Do give your mind a lot of rest and let the heart flower overtime...

( my personal opinion ..) ..

 

love

 

ramesh

--- On Sun, 7/26/09, Radhe <shaantih wrote:

Radhe <shaantihRe: Letter from a JñÄni Date: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 1:26 AM

Dear all...pranams:It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with different devotees.Those which are Ramana's "primary statements" naturally aredifferent to different people. In fact, his primary statementsor the primary statements of almost any spiritual or other writtenwork can be presented as such according to the one whopropounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate withRamana's quotes on surrender.Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you posted wouldhave universal appeal, and you posted it with that intention, agood intention. But not everyone sees it only that way. Thestatements below are of the "nothing ever happened." schoolof thought, just as much a thought and belief as all of the othersdismissed as useless in the body of the letter, all rising fromthe mind and ending there as well. Whatever the true realityis will always remain a mystery to the mind of the

embodiedsoul, no matter how close one might come to that Truthconceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called Grace, and itis not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I knew whatit was called.I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in the hierarchyoften superimposed upon spiritual belief systems, to the tuneof " my dog is better than your dog." :-) both within a particularbelief system and directed externally to other philosophies as well.Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to differentsouls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to speculatebeyond this statement, as for us to infer what he was thinkingor why he did things the way he did them is almost ludicrous!Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to justify our ownbeliefs about what he meant and how that applies to our own path.So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart. Don't go if

itdoes not please your heart. But all this judgment of one's ownand others' advancement on and understanding of the "path"just tends to engender negative thoughts and emotions within,hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere intellectual grasp ofany philosophical concept is just that...mere in comparison tothe unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I also believein Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part of Him, butthat He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop of waterin a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head in humility.Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming with postsextolling the virtues of this chosen path, that deity, thisphilosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the incongruity of dvaitaand advaita is being "debated." My brain hurts!!! But my heartis full of devotion. So it never happened? All I can say is thatthere is a whole lot of nothing going on

:-)Having said that, and since this is a list devoted to Ramana,I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been quotedas actually being some of his words on surrender and atmavichara.In His Service,RadheHare Krishna!!!------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -From http://www.hinduism .co.za/bhaktisur .htmQuestion: What is unconditional surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to askquestions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holdingon to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to thehighest power. These are the only two ways for realization.Question: Does not total or complete surrender require that one should nothave left even the desire for liberation or

God?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does require that you have nodesire of your own. You must be satisfied with whatever God gives youand that means having no desires of your own.Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point, I want to know what thesteps are by which I could achieve surrender.Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is looking into the source of‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is feeling ‘I am helpless bymyself, God alone is all-powerful and except by throwing myself completelyon Him, there is no other means of safety for me.’ By this method onegradually develops the conviction that God alone exists and that the egodoes not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender isanother name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to adopt that path.Sri Ramana Maharshi: By

whatever path you go, you will have to loseyourself in the One. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage'‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge). In Soham (the affirmationof ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In surrender there is Advaita(non-dualism) . In the Reality there is neither Dvaita nor Advaita, but thatwhich is. Surrender appears easy because people imagine that, once theysay with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put their burdens on their Lord, theycan be free and do what they like. But the fact is that you can have nolikes or dislikes after your surrender; your will should become completelynon-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place. The death of the ego in thisway brings about a state, which is not different from Jnana (knowledge). Soby whatever path you may go, you must come to Jnana or

oneness.Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is the best which appearseasiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally good as they lead to thesame goal, which is the merging of the ego in the Self. What the Bhakta(devotee) calls surrender, the man who does Vichara (self-enquiry) callsJnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take the ego back to the sourcefrom which it sprang and make it merge there.Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a seeker?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender unreservedly. One of twothings must be done. Either surrender because you admit your inability andrequire a higher power to help you, or investigate the cause of misery bygoing to the source and merging into the Self. Either way you will be freefrom misery. God never forsakes one who has surrendered.Question: What is

the drift of the mind after surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind raising the question?Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I hope that increasing graceis experienced.Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. Solong as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire. That is alsopersonality. If this goes the Self is found to shine forth pure. The senseof doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves.‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here stillness is total surrender withouta vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be noagitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense ofdoership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet. There ‘knowing’means ‘being’. It is not the relative knowledge involving the triads,knowledge, knowing and

known.Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am the Supreme Being’ helpful?Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I am’ is God, not thinking ‘I am God’.Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’. ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not‘Think I am God’.All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar from a brown sugar imageof Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food offering) to the same LordGanesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all possessions to God.Were they yours that you could offer them? At best, you can only say, 'Ifalsely imagined till now that all these which are yours were mine. Now Irealize they are yours. I shall no more act as if they are mine.’ Thisknowledge that there is nothing but God or Self, that I or mine don’t existand that only the Self exists, is Jnana (knowledge). Thus there is nodifference between Bhakti and

Jnana. Bhakti is Jnana Mata (devotion isthe mother of knowledge).------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -The text of the letter....Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, inthat you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am notone. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone aroundthe necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana'spath. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual andsuperstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does notsolve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish aperspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believedin the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way toestablishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Godsof all shapes

and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines.From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that heactually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads hisbody of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to thosewho came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would takehold.Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remindfolks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not knowGod. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that PureConsciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. "Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife.Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements aredismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, whichreiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help.

Until one realises this whatcan one say?

[Guest guest]

Dear Radhe-ji:

 

Thank you for those beautiful quotes. It is all an open secret.

 

_______________

Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is the best which appears easiest

or appeals most. All the ways are equally good as they lead to the same goal,

which is the merging of the ego in the Self.

 

What the Bhakta (devotee) calls surrender, the man who does Vichara

(self-enquiry) calls Jnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take the ego

back to the source from which it sprang and make it merge there.

 

 

This sangha is in the spirit of Bhagavan. Open and accepting. Bhagavan's words

are his letters to us. His actions are his letters to us. His teaching is his

letter to us. It is the Guru who blesses and by whose Grace we realize that " I "

and " Thou " are the same.

 

With gratitude to the devotees of Bhagavan who have gathered here in friendship

and love with Bhagavan's blessings.

 

Namaste and love to all

Harsha

 

 

On

Behalf Of Radhe

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:57 PM

 

Re: Letter from a JñÄni

 

Dear all...pranams:

 

It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with different devotees.

Those which are Ramana's " primary statements " naturally are

different to different people. In fact, his primary statements

or the primary statements of almost any spiritual or other written

work can be presented as such according to the one who

propounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate with

Ramana's quotes on surrender.

 

Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you posted would

have universal appeal, and you posted it with that intention, a

good intention. But not everyone sees it only that way. The

statements below are of the " nothing ever happened. " school

of thought, just as much a thought and belief as all of the others

dismissed as useless in the body of the letter, all rising from

the mind and ending there as well. Whatever the true reality

is will always remain a mystery to the mind of the embodied

soul, no matter how close one might come to that Truth

conceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called Grace, and it

is not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I knew what

it was called.

 

I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in the hierarchy

often superimposed upon spiritual belief systems, to the tune

of " my dog is better than your dog. " :-) both within a particular

belief system and directed externally to other philosophies as well.

Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to different

souls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to speculate

beyond this statement, as for us to infer what he was thinking

or why he did things the way he did them is almost ludicrous!

Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to justify our own

beliefs about what he meant and how that applies to our own path.

 

So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart. Don't go if it

does not please your heart. But all this judgment of one's own

and others' advancement on and understanding of the " path "

just tends to engender negative thoughts and emotions within,

hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere intellectual grasp of

any philosophical concept is just that...mere in comparison to

the unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I also believe

in Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part of Him, but

that He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop of water

in a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head in humility.

 

Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming with posts

extolling the virtues of this chosen path, that deity, this

philosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the incongruity of dvaita

and advaita is being " debated. " My brain hurts!!! But my heart

is full of devotion. So it never happened? All I can say is that

there is a whole lot of nothing going on :-)

 

Having said that, and since this is a list devoted to Ramana,

I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been quoted

as actually being some of his words on surrender and atma

vichara.

 

 

In His Service,

 

Radhe

 

Hare Krishna!!!

 

-------------------------------

From http://www.hinduism.co.za/bhaktisur.htm

 

Question: What is unconditional surrender?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask

questions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding

on to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the

highest power. These are the only two ways for realization.

 

Question: Does not total or complete surrender require that one should not

have left even the desire for liberation or God?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does require that you have no

desire of your own. You must be satisfied with whatever God gives you

and that means having no desires of your own.

 

Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point, I want to know what the

steps are by which I could achieve surrender.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is looking into the source of

‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is feeling ‘I am helpless by

myself, God alone is all-powerful and except by throwing myself completely

on Him, there is no other means of safety for me.’ By this method one

gradually develops the conviction that God alone exists and that the ego

does not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender is

another name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.

 

Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to adopt that path.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: By whatever path you go, you will have to lose

yourself in the One. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage

'‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.

 

The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge). In Soham (the affirmation

of ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In surrender there is Advaita

(non-dualism). In the Reality there is neither Dvaita nor Advaita, but that

which is. Surrender appears easy because people imagine that, once they

say with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put their burdens on their Lord, they

can be free and do what they like. But the fact is that you can have no

likes or dislikes after your surrender; your will should become completely

non-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place. The death of the ego in this

way brings about a state, which is not different from Jnana (knowledge). So

by whatever path you may go, you must come to Jnana or oneness.

 

Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is the best which appears

easiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally good as they lead to the

same goal, which is the merging of the ego in the Self. What the Bhakta

(devotee) calls surrender, the man who does Vichara (self-enquiry) calls

Jnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take the ego back to the source

from which it sprang and make it merge there.

 

Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a seeker?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender unreservedly. One of two

things must be done. Either surrender because you admit your inability and

require a higher power to help you, or investigate the cause of misery by

going to the source and merging into the Self. Either way you will be free

from misery. God never forsakes one who has surrendered.

 

Question: What is the drift of the mind after surrender?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind raising the question?

 

Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I hope that increasing grace

is experienced.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. So

long as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire. That is also

personality. If this goes the Self is found to shine forth pure. The sense

of doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves.

 

‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here stillness is total surrender without

a vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be no

agitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense of

doership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet. There ‘knowing’

means ‘being’. It is not the relative knowledge involving the triads,

knowledge, knowing and known.

 

Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am the Supreme Being’ helpful?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I am’ is God, not thinking ‘I

am God’.

Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’. ‘Know I am God’, it is said,

and not

‘Think I am God’.

 

All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar from a brown sugar image

of Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food offering) to the same Lord

Ganesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all possessions to God.

Were they yours that you could offer them? At best, you can only say, 'I

falsely imagined till now that all these which are yours were mine. Now I

realize they are yours. I shall no more act as if they are mine.’ This

knowledge that there is nothing but God or Self, that I or mine don’t exist

and that only the Self exists, is Jnana (knowledge). Thus there is no

difference between Bhakti and Jnana. Bhakti is Jnana Mata (devotion is

the mother of knowledge).

 

-------

 

The text of the letter....

 

Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, in

that you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am not

one. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone around

the necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana's

path. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual and

superstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does not

solve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish a

perspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believed

in the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way to

establishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Gods

of all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines.

From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that he

actually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads his

body of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to those

who came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would take

hold.

 

Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remind

folks or can he? " Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know

God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that Pure

Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. "

Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife.

Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements are

dismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, which

reiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help. Until one realises this what

can one say?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

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Friends, after registering at , if you wish to contribute your

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Thanks.

 

Namaste and love to all

Harsha

 

[Guest guest]



Dear Rafeji:

 

I think that for each person, Ramana's teaching was transmitted

as was right for them. And let us not forget his teaching by example

in how he lived. With or without words, the ultimate teaching

is the same Truth, even if we each perceive it differently!

 

In His Service,

 

Radhe

 

Hare Krishna!!!

Om Arunachala!!!

OM Namah Shivaya!!!

Jai Ma!!!

I Am That I Am....

 

 

 

 

-

Rafe Stoneman

Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:21 PM

Re: Letter from a JñÄni

 

 

Thank you for the thorough post.

I have always alternated between surrender and inquiry.

Obviously my surrender has not been 100 percent, or I would no longer need to practice surrender.

I make no claims about being liberated. I don't even know if such a permanent state exists, although I attribute that state as Ramana's state. All of us here, I assume want liberation, and not just to advance spiritually in order to have a certain type of experience or life... this is the assumption that i speak to all of you here. That you want liberation and only liberation. Since we are mental cratures of habit, we will continue to define with words what that state is, until we do not anymore. Can we all agree at least on this: Ramana's primary teaching was transmitted without words?

 

 

 

Radhe <shaantih (AT) comcast (DOT) net> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:56:49 PMRe: Letter from a JñÄni

Dear all...pranams:It is said that Ramana's guidance varied with different devotees.Those which are Ramana's "primary statements" naturally aredifferent to different people. In fact, his primary statementsor the primary statements of almost any spiritual or other writtenwork can be presented as such according to the one whopropounds the quote. I am a bhakta and I resonate withRamana's quotes on surrender.Dear Michael, you had thought that the letter you posted wouldhave universal appeal, and you posted it with that intention, agood intention. But not everyone sees it only that way. Thestatements below are of the "nothing ever happened." schoolof thought, just as much a thought and belief as all of the othersdismissed as useless in the body of the letter, all rising fromthe mind and ending there as well. Whatever the true realityis will always remain a mystery to the mind of the embodiedsoul, no matter how close one might come to that Truthconceptually. To me, there IS such a thing called Grace, and itis not a mere concept. I knew what is was before I knew whatit was called.I do believe there is a certain danger inherent in the hierarchyoften superimposed upon spiritual belief systems, to the tuneof " my dog is better than your dog." :-) both within a particularbelief system and directed externally to other philosophies as well.Ramana tried to be so universal in his approach to differentsouls coming to him for guidance. I do not want to speculatebeyond this statement, as for us to infer what he was thinkingor why he did things the way he did them is almost ludicrous!Such inferences are often grounded in an effort to justify our ownbeliefs about what he meant and how that applies to our own path.So, go to Arunachala if it pleases your heart. Don't go if itdoes not please your heart. But all this judgment of one's ownand others' advancement on and understanding of the "path"just tends to engender negative thoughts and emotions within,hardly the goal of any of us!!! The mere intellectual grasp ofany philosophical concept is just that...mere in comparison tothe unfathomable Truth. That is what I believe. I also believein Ishwara (God), that what I am is truly a part of Him, butthat He is ocean and I a mere wave...a mere drop of waterin a wave. Just the thought makes me bow my head in humility.Even now, as I write this, the internet is humming with postsextolling the virtues of this chosen path, that deity, thisphilosophy. Over on the Advaitin list, the incongruity of dvaitaand advaita is being "debated." My brain hurts!!! But my heartis full of devotion. So it never happened? All I can say is thatthere is a whole lot of nothing going on :-)Having said that, and since this is a list devoted to Ramana,I thought it helpful to reproduce what have been quotedas actually being some of his words on surrender and atmavichara.In His Service,RadheHare Krishna!!!------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -From http://www.hinduism .co.za/bhaktisur .htmQuestion: What is unconditional surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to askquestions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holdingon to the root thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to thehighest power. These are the only two ways for realization.Question: Does not total or complete surrender require that one should nothave left even the desire for liberation or God?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Complete surrender does require that you have nodesire of your own. You must be satisfied with whatever God gives youand that means having no desires of your own.Questioner: Now that I am satisfied on that point, I want to know what thesteps are by which I could achieve surrender.Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two ways. One is looking into the source of‘I’ and merging into that source. The other is feeling ‘I am helpless bymyself, God alone is all-powerful and except by throwing myself completelyon Him, there is no other means of safety for me.’ By this method onegradually develops the conviction that God alone exists and that the egodoes not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender isanother name for Jnana (knowledge) or liberation.Questioner: I find surrender is easier. I want to adopt that path.Sri Ramana Maharshi: By whatever path you go, you will have to loseyourself in the One. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage'‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge). In Soham (the affirmationof ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In surrender there is Advaita(non-dualism) . In the Reality there is neither Dvaita nor Advaita, but thatwhich is. Surrender appears easy because people imagine that, once theysay with their lips '‘ surrender'’ and put their burdens on their Lord, theycan be free and do what they like. But the fact is that you can have nolikes or dislikes after your surrender; your will should become completelynon-existent, the Lord’s will taking its place. The death of the ego in thisway brings about a state, which is not different from Jnana (knowledge). Soby whatever path you may go, you must come to Jnana or oneness.Question: What is the best way of killing the ego?Sri Ramana Maharshi: To each person that way is the best which appearseasiest or appeals most. All the ways are equally good as they lead to thesame goal, which is the merging of the ego in the Self. What the Bhakta(devotee) calls surrender, the man who does Vichara (self-enquiry) callsJnana (knowledge). Both are trying only to take the ego back to the sourcefrom which it sprang and make it merge there.Question: Cannot grace hasten such competence in a seeker?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Leave it to God. Surrender unreservedly. One of twothings must be done. Either surrender because you admit your inability andrequire a higher power to help you, or investigate the cause of misery bygoing to the source and merging into the Self. Either way you will be freefrom misery. God never forsakes one who has surrendered.Question: What is the drift of the mind after surrender?Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is the surrendered mind raising the question?Questioner: By constantly desiring to surrender I hope that increasing graceis experienced.Sri Ramana Maharshi: Surrender once for all and be done with the desire. Solong as the sense of doership is retained there is the desire. That is alsopersonality. If this goes the Self is found to shine forth pure. The senseof doership is the bondage and not the actions themselves.‘Be still and know that I am God’. Here stillness is total surrender withouta vestige of individuality. Stillness will prevail and there will be noagitation of mind. Agitation of mind is the cause of desire, the sense ofdoership and personality. If that is stopped there is quiet. There ‘knowing’means ‘being’. It is not the relative knowledge involving the triads,knowledge, knowing and known.Question: Is the thought ‘I am God’ or ‘I am the Supreme Being’ helpful?Sri Ramana Maharshi: ‘I am that I am’. ‘I am’ is God, not thinking ‘I am God’.Realize ‘I am’ and do not think ‘I am’. ‘Know I am God’, it is said, and not‘Think I am God’.All talk of surrender is like pinching brown sugar from a brown sugar imageof Lord Ganesha and offering it as Naivedya (food offering) to the same LordGanesha. You say you offer your body, soul and all possessions to God.Were they yours that you could offer them? At best, you can only say, 'Ifalsely imagined till now that all these which are yours were mine. Now Irealize they are yours. I shall no more act as if they are mine.’ Thisknowledge that there is nothing but God or Self, that I or mine don’t existand that only the Self exists, is Jnana (knowledge). Thus there is nodifference between Bhakti and Jnana. Bhakti is Jnana Mata (devotion isthe mother of knowledge).------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -The text of the letter....Many people, I feel sure, would consider that you were very fortunate, inthat you have the opportunity to visit Arunachala fairly often. I am notone. I feel that the whole Arunachala thing has become a millstone aroundthe necks of devotees. They have come to have false ideas about Ramana'spath. Attending Arunachala is immaterial. It has become mere ritual andsuperstition. Attending to vichara is the one and only solution. It does notsolve life's trials and tribulations [look at me] but it does establish aperspective which effects a strategy to travel through life. Ramana believedin the beliefs of devotees as a temporary staging post on the way toestablishing vichara. i.e. he accepted the devotees' beliefs in Grace, Godsof all shapes and sizes, and at times their belief in other disciplines.From this it appears that Ramana devotees have extrapolated that heactually believed in the things his devotees believed in. If one reads hisbody of works it is clear He did not. He allowed a certain leeway to thosewho came to ask advice in the hope that his teaching of vichara would takehold.Nowadays there is no corrective influence. Ramana can no longer remindfolks or can he? "Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not knowGod. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that PureConsciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that Consciousness. "Advaita has become nothing but dvaita in disguise. Confusion is now rife.Everyone wants blessing and intercession. Ramana's primary statements aredismissed. Primary statements are those which reaffirm ajatavada, whichreiterate vichara. Nothing else is of any help. Until one realises this whatcan one say?

 

 

 

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