Guest guest Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 Dear Ash, Good attempt, the ayanansha you used are lahiri, it should be krushna's ayanansha. For this case you have found no effect, but in some cases it will change the result. For female chart, for child birth, 11th house should also be concerned along with 5th house. krushna , " ashsam73 " <ashsam73@h...> wrote: > Dear Krushnaji, > > Here is my attempt. > > Lagna and Navamsa Lagna Rising. > ------------------------------- > Lagna : Leo 25.08' > Navamsa : Scorpio > > Samdharmi's > ----------- > > Rahu : Sun (in sign of sun) and Venus (constellation of venus) > Moon : > Saturn : Mars > Mars : Saturn, Sun > Jupiter : Mercury, Sun > Venus : > Ketu : Saturn, Rahu (constellation lord) ?? (substitued by Sun and > Venus ???) > Mercury : Jupiter, Sun > > Event 1 > ------- > > Marriage on 18th July 1942. > Age of 19. > > Dasa/Antra running : Mars/Moon. > > > Planet Aspecting House A,B,C for 7th,2nd and 11th house : Venus. > Planets Ruling D (12th house) and E (4th house) (Eager to give > results) : Moon with 5 points and Mars Lord of house E with 5 > points. > > *************************************************** > Clarifications wanted here : > Other planets that can also be eager to give results are planets > with > 4 points in house D or E implying that Jupiter (5 points), > Sun (6 points) can also give results.). ??? > *************************************************** > > Checking the points in 7th house. > > Moon furnishes the highest points 23 followed by Jupiter with 19 > points. > > General Indications for delay in marriage > -------- > > a) Saturn is not aspecting house A, B and C hence no delay. > b) Saturn is lord of house B and is not aspecting lords of house A > and C which is mercury hence marriage is not delayed. > c) No zero points for house A, B, C, D and E in Sarvashtakavarga > chart. > > So no general indications of delayed marriage exists. This means > that when the person reaches marriagable age it will take place. > > Moon Sub comes first after the age of 18. So Marriage happens in > Moon sub of Mars Mahadasa. > > Transit of Sun : For narrowing down the dates in the moon sub which > is from 02-06-1942 to 01-01-1943 about 7 months. > Since there is no aspect of Shani marriage will occur in first > trimester i.e first 1/3rd portion of 7 months). > > Sun has to be transitting the constillation of powerful indicators. > From the worksheet we find that the powerful significator is Moon > and followed by Jupiter. This period comes when sun transits > constellation of moon and jupiter from July 17 thru July 19th. > > Hence Marriage took place on July 18th, 1942. > > > Event 2 : > --------- > > First Female Child : August 45. > Dasa/Antar Running : Rahu/Rahu > > House B under consideration for children is 5th house. > > Planets aspecting house A, B, C for B=5th house: Saturn, Jupiter and > Mercury. Saturn is aspecting A, B and C, Guru is aspecting house A > and Mars is aspecting house C. > > In Sarvashtaka we can see that Mars gives 0 points. Hence this can > indicate delay. > > *************************************** > Question : Mars is the 12th lord from 5th house. This giving 0 > points in sarvashtaka is this good or bad. > *************************************** > > Planets eager to give results are lords of house D and E being > Mercury for house D and Venus for house E. > Planets in house D and E with > 4 points can also become eager to > give results. In our case it is Moon in house D with 5 points. > > Looking at the points we can see that Mercury gives highest points > 20 followed by Venus with 19 and Sun with 12 points. > > We can see that Rahu is samdharmi to Venus and Sun and hence > Rahu/Rahu period can give the results. > Since Saturn aspects house A,B and C and Saturn is not checked by > Jupiter hence the delay to the last 1/3rd portion of the Rahu antar > dasa. Rahu antra runs from 01-01-1943 thur 13-09-1945 = 33 months. > The last 11 months are 13-10-1944 thru 13-09-1945. > Now Sun transiting power significator will furnish the event. > Powerful significator is Mercury and Venus furnishing highest points. > > ************************************** > Question and clarification ? > Since in the probable date finder no period of venus and merc exists > how to calculate the date of child birth ? > periods for august 1945 are moon and mercury, sun and ketu ... > ***************************************** > > Possible explanation : > Substituting with Moon as it is also eager to give results, sun > transitting constellation with Moon and Mercury. > Moon in house D is eager to give results as it is with 5 points. So > during Moon and Mercury phase i.e between Aug 3rd and Aug 16th first > child birth can take place. > > > Event 2nd child : july 1947 > --------------------------- > Dasa / Antra running : Rahu / Jupiter. > > Since Guru is aspecting house A hence its samdharmi can come forward > to give results. Guru is samdharmi to Mercury and Sun. > > Mercury and Sun both are giving benefic results for 5th house. > > Shani is aspecting house A, B and C and hence results are given at > the last 1/3rd portion of the guru antra. > > Guru antra spans from 13-09-1945 thru 07-02-1948 total of about 30 > months. So last 10 months can furnish the event i.e. from 07-04- > 1947 thru 07-02-1948. > > Mercury is samdharmi to Guru and in the absence of Mercury and Venus > constellation, Mercury and Guru being samdharmi to Mercury can be > taken ?????? [clarificatin wanted here ?] > > Sun is in the constellation of Mercury and Guru from july 6th thru > july 16th. This can give event of second child. > > > Event 3 : 3rd male child in november 57. > Dasa/Antra running : Rahu/Sun > > Sun gives benefic results for the 5th house. Sun is not aspected by > shani and hence there should be no delays in the sun sub. > > *************************************************** > Having difficulty in explaining the Suns transit ? clarification > required ? > *************************************************** > > Other periods between antra of saturn, mercury and ketu no children. > > Explanation Saturn aspects house A, B and C and its samdharmi can > come forward if it has not furnished results. Saturn is samdharmi > to Mars, Mars furnishes 0 points in sarvashtak and is 12th lord from > 5th house hence no children. > > ****************************************************************** > Mercury antra. : Mercury has good points in the spread sheet so why > has it not given any children in the period of its antra. ? > ***************************************************************** > > Ketu antra : Ketu is samdharmi to Shani and Rahu. Rahu has already > furnished results and shani will not furnish results because of > reasons given above hence it will not deliver results. > > > Event 4 > ------- > Death 26th june 1995. > Dasa/Antra : Saturn/Jupiter > > Shani is aspecting house C hence delay in the last 1/3rd portion of > House B = 8th house. > Mahadasa of Shani. > Guru aspects house C and B. > Moon aspects house B > > Lords of house D and E are Jupiter and Sun. (Eager to give results). > > Shani is 12th lord from house B. Since due to the aspect of Shani > on house C delay in the last 1/3rd portion. Sun who is eager to > give results does not come in the last third portion. Only Guru can > furnish the results. Hence antra of Guru can furnish the result of > the ultimate truth of life. > > This is my humble attempt. krushnaji could you please correct my > mistakes. > > Cheers !!! > Ash > > > , " krushanain " <krushanain> > wrote: > > Dear List members, > > Here is a chart of a female, for study purpose. > > D.O.B. 3rd Dec 1923 > > Time 01:01 Am IST ( GMT + 5.5) > > At Nagoan 18:N:58, 072:E:50 India > > Ayanansha 21:46:50 > > > > Events: > > 1) married on 18th July 1942, > > 2) 1st Female child Aug 45 > > 3) 2nd Female child July 47 > > 4) 3rd Male child Nov 57. > > 5) Date of Expired 26th June 1995 > > Please find if the events matches with the chart. > > krushna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 Dear Krushnaji, I have used Krushna's Ananyamsa. Its 1:0:43 Less than Lahiri. I shall redo the chart for child birth using the 11th house for females as you have recommended and post my analysis in a seperate email. Cheers !!! Ash , " krushanain " <krushanain> wrote: > Dear Ash, > Good attempt, the ayanansha you used are lahiri, it should be > krushna's ayanansha. For this case you have found no effect, but in > some cases it will change the result. > For female chart, for child birth, 11th house should also be > concerned along with 5th house. > krushna > > > , " ashsam73 " <ashsam73@h...> > wrote: > > Dear Krushnaji, > > > > Here is my attempt. > > > > Lagna and Navamsa Lagna Rising. > > ------------------------------- > > Lagna : Leo 25.08' > > Navamsa : Scorpio > > > > Samdharmi's > > ----------- > > > > Rahu : Sun (in sign of sun) and Venus (constellation of venus) > > Moon : > > Saturn : Mars > > Mars : Saturn, Sun > > Jupiter : Mercury, Sun > > Venus : > > Ketu : Saturn, Rahu (constellation lord) ?? (substitued by Sun and > > Venus ???) > > Mercury : Jupiter, Sun > > > > Event 1 > > ------- > > > > Marriage on 18th July 1942. > > Age of 19. > > > > Dasa/Antra running : Mars/Moon. > > > > > > Planet Aspecting House A,B,C for 7th,2nd and 11th house : Venus. > > Planets Ruling D (12th house) and E (4th house) (Eager to give > > results) : Moon with 5 points and Mars Lord of house E with 5 > > points. > > > > *************************************************** > > Clarifications wanted here : > > Other planets that can also be eager to give results are planets > > with > 4 points in house D or E implying that Jupiter (5 points), > > Sun (6 points) can also give results.). ??? > > *************************************************** > > > > Checking the points in 7th house. > > > > Moon furnishes the highest points 23 followed by Jupiter with 19 > > points. > > > > General Indications for delay in marriage > > -------- > > > > a) Saturn is not aspecting house A, B and C hence no delay. > > b) Saturn is lord of house B and is not aspecting lords of house A > > and C which is mercury hence marriage is not delayed. > > c) No zero points for house A, B, C, D and E in Sarvashtakavarga > > chart. > > > > So no general indications of delayed marriage exists. This means > > that when the person reaches marriagable age it will take place. > > > > Moon Sub comes first after the age of 18. So Marriage happens in > > Moon sub of Mars Mahadasa. > > > > Transit of Sun : For narrowing down the dates in the moon sub which > > is from 02-06-1942 to 01-01-1943 about 7 months. > > Since there is no aspect of Shani marriage will occur in first > > trimester i.e first 1/3rd portion of 7 months). > > > > Sun has to be transitting the constillation of powerful > indicators. > > From the worksheet we find that the powerful significator is Moon > > and followed by Jupiter. This period comes when sun transits > > constellation of moon and jupiter from July 17 thru July 19th. > > > > Hence Marriage took place on July 18th, 1942. > > > > > > Event 2 : > > --------- > > > > First Female Child : August 45. > > Dasa/Antar Running : Rahu/Rahu > > > > House B under consideration for children is 5th house. > > > > Planets aspecting house A, B, C for B=5th house: Saturn, Jupiter > and > > Mercury. Saturn is aspecting A, B and C, Guru is aspecting house A > > and Mars is aspecting house C. > > > > In Sarvashtaka we can see that Mars gives 0 points. Hence this can > > indicate delay. > > > > *************************************** > > Question : Mars is the 12th lord from 5th house. This giving 0 > > points in sarvashtaka is this good or bad. > > *************************************** > > > > Planets eager to give results are lords of house D and E being > > Mercury for house D and Venus for house E. > > Planets in house D and E with > 4 points can also become eager to > > give results. In our case it is Moon in house D with 5 points. > > > > Looking at the points we can see that Mercury gives highest points > > 20 followed by Venus with 19 and Sun with 12 points. > > > > We can see that Rahu is samdharmi to Venus and Sun and hence > > Rahu/Rahu period can give the results. > > Since Saturn aspects house A,B and C and Saturn is not checked by > > Jupiter hence the delay to the last 1/3rd portion of the Rahu antar > > dasa. Rahu antra runs from 01-01-1943 thur 13-09-1945 = 33 months. > > The last 11 months are 13-10-1944 thru 13-09-1945. > > Now Sun transiting power significator will furnish the event. > > Powerful significator is Mercury and Venus furnishing highest > points. > > > > ************************************** > > Question and clarification ? > > Since in the probable date finder no period of venus and merc > exists > > how to calculate the date of child birth ? > > periods for august 1945 are moon and mercury, sun and ketu ... > > ***************************************** > > > > Possible explanation : > > Substituting with Moon as it is also eager to give results, sun > > transitting constellation with Moon and Mercury. > > Moon in house D is eager to give results as it is with 5 points. > So > > during Moon and Mercury phase i.e between Aug 3rd and Aug 16th > first > > child birth can take place. > > > > > > Event 2nd child : july 1947 > > --------------------------- > > Dasa / Antra running : Rahu / Jupiter. > > > > Since Guru is aspecting house A hence its samdharmi can come > forward > > to give results. Guru is samdharmi to Mercury and Sun. > > > > Mercury and Sun both are giving benefic results for 5th house. > > > > Shani is aspecting house A, B and C and hence results are given at > > the last 1/3rd portion of the guru antra. > > > > Guru antra spans from 13-09-1945 thru 07-02-1948 total of about 30 > > months. So last 10 months can furnish the event i.e. from 07-04- > > 1947 thru 07-02-1948. > > > > Mercury is samdharmi to Guru and in the absence of Mercury and > Venus > > constellation, Mercury and Guru being samdharmi to Mercury can be > > taken ?????? [clarificatin wanted here ?] > > > > Sun is in the constellation of Mercury and Guru from july 6th thru > > july 16th. This can give event of second child. > > > > > > Event 3 : 3rd male child in november 57. > > Dasa/Antra running : Rahu/Sun > > > > Sun gives benefic results for the 5th house. Sun is not aspected > by > > shani and hence there should be no delays in the sun sub. > > > > *************************************************** > > Having difficulty in explaining the Suns transit ? clarification > > required ? > > *************************************************** > > > > Other periods between antra of saturn, mercury and ketu no children. > > > > Explanation Saturn aspects house A, B and C and its samdharmi can > > come forward if it has not furnished results. Saturn is samdharmi > > to Mars, Mars furnishes 0 points in sarvashtak and is 12th lord > from > > 5th house hence no children. > > > > ****************************************************************** > > Mercury antra. : Mercury has good points in the spread sheet so why > > has it not given any children in the period of its antra. ? > > ***************************************************************** > > > > Ketu antra : Ketu is samdharmi to Shani and Rahu. Rahu has already > > furnished results and shani will not furnish results because of > > reasons given above hence it will not deliver results. > > > > > > Event 4 > > ------- > > Death 26th june 1995. > > Dasa/Antra : Saturn/Jupiter > > > > Shani is aspecting house C hence delay in the last 1/3rd portion of > > House B = 8th house. > > Mahadasa of Shani. > > Guru aspects house C and B. > > Moon aspects house B > > > > Lords of house D and E are Jupiter and Sun. (Eager to give results). > > > > Shani is 12th lord from house B. Since due to the aspect of Shani > > on house C delay in the last 1/3rd portion. Sun who is eager to > > give results does not come in the last third portion. Only Guru > can > > furnish the results. Hence antra of Guru can furnish the result of > > the ultimate truth of life. > > > > This is my humble attempt. krushnaji could you please correct my > > mistakes. > > > > Cheers !!! > > Ash > > > > > > , " krushanain " > <krushanain> > > wrote: > > > Dear List members, > > > Here is a chart of a female, for study purpose. > > > D.O.B. 3rd Dec 1923 > > > Time 01:01 Am IST ( GMT + 5.5) > > > At Nagoan 18:N:58, 072:E:50 India > > > Ayanansha 21:46:50 > > > > > > Events: > > > 1) married on 18th July 1942, > > > 2) 1st Female child Aug 45 > > > 3) 2nd Female child July 47 > > > 4) 3rd Male child Nov 57. > > > 5) Date of Expired 26th June 1995 > > > Please find if the events matches with the chart. > > > krushna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 Dear Krushnaji and List members, Here is my attempt for child birth using 11th house for female. Points in the 11th house are as follows. Ju 22 Su 20 Ma 17 Me 17 Mo 13 Ve 8 Sa 8. First Child in Rahu/Rahu. Rahu is samdharmi to sun and venus. Venus aspects house B and Mars aspects house A. From the worksheet we see that Sun furnishes 20 points and it gives the first child birth. Second Child in Rahu/Jupiter. Jupiter is the strongest significator for 11th house. It is not aspecting house A,B or C. It is also lord of house D with points > 4 hence eager to give results. Hence it give the second child. Third Child in Rahu / Sun Sun is powerful signifcator and will give results in its sub. Sun is not aspecting house A, B and C and hence gives the third child. Question : Why do we take 11th house for female and 5th house for males for finding children ? Cheers !!! Ash ps : I get shani in scorpio in lagna with krushna's ananyamsa which is aspecting 7th house as Margarita has given. Please clarify so we are in synch and on the same page. I also get moon as a benefic with 13 points in 11th house and not the planet with least point just as Margarita has said. Where am I going wrong. , " krushanain " <krushanain> wrote: > Dear Ash, > Good attempt, the ayanansha you used are lahiri, it should be > krushna's ayanansha. For this case you have found no effect, but in > some cases it will change the result. > For female chart, for child birth, 11th house should also be > concerned along with 5th house. > krushna > > > , " ashsam73 " <ashsam73@h...> > wrote: > > Dear Krushnaji, > > > > Here is my attempt. > > > > Lagna and Navamsa Lagna Rising. > > ------------------------------- > > Lagna : Leo 25.08' > > Navamsa : Scorpio > > > > Samdharmi's > > ----------- > > > > Rahu : Sun (in sign of sun) and Venus (constellation of venus) > > Moon : > > Saturn : Mars > > Mars : Saturn, Sun > > Jupiter : Mercury, Sun > > Venus : > > Ketu : Saturn, Rahu (constellation lord) ?? (substitued by Sun and > > Venus ???) > > Mercury : Jupiter, Sun > > > > Event 1 > > ------- > > > > Marriage on 18th July 1942. > > Age of 19. > > > > Dasa/Antra running : Mars/Moon. > > > > > > Planet Aspecting House A,B,C for 7th,2nd and 11th house : Venus. > > Planets Ruling D (12th house) and E (4th house) (Eager to give > > results) : Moon with 5 points and Mars Lord of house E with 5 > > points. > > > > *************************************************** > > Clarifications wanted here : > > Other planets that can also be eager to give results are planets > > with > 4 points in house D or E implying that Jupiter (5 points), > > Sun (6 points) can also give results.). ??? > > *************************************************** > > > > Checking the points in 7th house. > > > > Moon furnishes the highest points 23 followed by Jupiter with 19 > > points. > > > > General Indications for delay in marriage > > -------- > > > > a) Saturn is not aspecting house A, B and C hence no delay. > > b) Saturn is lord of house B and is not aspecting lords of house A > > and C which is mercury hence marriage is not delayed. > > c) No zero points for house A, B, C, D and E in Sarvashtakavarga > > chart. > > > > So no general indications of delayed marriage exists. This means > > that when the person reaches marriagable age it will take place. > > > > Moon Sub comes first after the age of 18. So Marriage happens in > > Moon sub of Mars Mahadasa. > > > > Transit of Sun : For narrowing down the dates in the moon sub which > > is from 02-06-1942 to 01-01-1943 about 7 months. > > Since there is no aspect of Shani marriage will occur in first > > trimester i.e first 1/3rd portion of 7 months). > > > > Sun has to be transitting the constillation of powerful > indicators. > > From the worksheet we find that the powerful significator is Moon > > and followed by Jupiter. This period comes when sun transits > > constellation of moon and jupiter from July 17 thru July 19th. > > > > Hence Marriage took place on July 18th, 1942. > > > > > > Event 2 : > > --------- > > > > First Female Child : August 45. > > Dasa/Antar Running : Rahu/Rahu > > > > House B under consideration for children is 5th house. > > > > Planets aspecting house A, B, C for B=5th house: Saturn, Jupiter > and > > Mercury. Saturn is aspecting A, B and C, Guru is aspecting house A > > and Mars is aspecting house C. > > > > In Sarvashtaka we can see that Mars gives 0 points. Hence this can > > indicate delay. > > > > *************************************** > > Question : Mars is the 12th lord from 5th house. This giving 0 > > points in sarvashtaka is this good or bad. > > *************************************** > > > > Planets eager to give results are lords of house D and E being > > Mercury for house D and Venus for house E. > > Planets in house D and E with > 4 points can also become eager to > > give results. In our case it is Moon in house D with 5 points. > > > > Looking at the points we can see that Mercury gives highest points > > 20 followed by Venus with 19 and Sun with 12 points. > > > > We can see that Rahu is samdharmi to Venus and Sun and hence > > Rahu/Rahu period can give the results. > > Since Saturn aspects house A,B and C and Saturn is not checked by > > Jupiter hence the delay to the last 1/3rd portion of the Rahu antar > > dasa. Rahu antra runs from 01-01-1943 thur 13-09-1945 = 33 months. > > The last 11 months are 13-10-1944 thru 13-09-1945. > > Now Sun transiting power significator will furnish the event. > > Powerful significator is Mercury and Venus furnishing highest > points. > > > > ************************************** > > Question and clarification ? > > Since in the probable date finder no period of venus and merc > exists > > how to calculate the date of child birth ? > > periods for august 1945 are moon and mercury, sun and ketu ... > > ***************************************** > > > > Possible explanation : > > Substituting with Moon as it is also eager to give results, sun > > transitting constellation with Moon and Mercury. > > Moon in house D is eager to give results as it is with 5 points. > So > > during Moon and Mercury phase i.e between Aug 3rd and Aug 16th > first > > child birth can take place. > > > > > > Event 2nd child : july 1947 > > --------------------------- > > Dasa / Antra running : Rahu / Jupiter. > > > > Since Guru is aspecting house A hence its samdharmi can come > forward > > to give results. Guru is samdharmi to Mercury and Sun. > > > > Mercury and Sun both are giving benefic results for 5th house. > > > > Shani is aspecting house A, B and C and hence results are given at > > the last 1/3rd portion of the guru antra. > > > > Guru antra spans from 13-09-1945 thru 07-02-1948 total of about 30 > > months. So last 10 months can furnish the event i.e. from 07-04- > > 1947 thru 07-02-1948. > > > > Mercury is samdharmi to Guru and in the absence of Mercury and > Venus > > constellation, Mercury and Guru being samdharmi to Mercury can be > > taken ?????? [clarificatin wanted here ?] > > > > Sun is in the constellation of Mercury and Guru from july 6th thru > > july 16th. This can give event of second child. > > > > > > Event 3 : 3rd male child in november 57. > > Dasa/Antra running : Rahu/Sun > > > > Sun gives benefic results for the 5th house. Sun is not aspected > by > > shani and hence there should be no delays in the sun sub. > > > > *************************************************** > > Having difficulty in explaining the Suns transit ? clarification > > required ? > > *************************************************** > > > > Other periods between antra of saturn, mercury and ketu no children. > > > > Explanation Saturn aspects house A, B and C and its samdharmi can > > come forward if it has not furnished results. Saturn is samdharmi > > to Mars, Mars furnishes 0 points in sarvashtak and is 12th lord > from > > 5th house hence no children. > > > > ****************************************************************** > > Mercury antra. : Mercury has good points in the spread sheet so why > > has it not given any children in the period of its antra. ? > > ***************************************************************** > > > > Ketu antra : Ketu is samdharmi to Shani and Rahu. Rahu has already > > furnished results and shani will not furnish results because of > > reasons given above hence it will not deliver results. > > > > > > Event 4 > > ------- > > Death 26th june 1995. > > Dasa/Antra : Saturn/Jupiter > > > > Shani is aspecting house C hence delay in the last 1/3rd portion of > > House B = 8th house. > > Mahadasa of Shani. > > Guru aspects house C and B. > > Moon aspects house B > > > > Lords of house D and E are Jupiter and Sun. (Eager to give results). > > > > Shani is 12th lord from house B. Since due to the aspect of Shani > > on house C delay in the last 1/3rd portion. Sun who is eager to > > give results does not come in the last third portion. Only Guru > can > > furnish the results. Hence antra of Guru can furnish the result of > > the ultimate truth of life. > > > > This is my humble attempt. krushnaji could you please correct my > > mistakes. > > > > Cheers !!! > > Ash > > > > > > , " krushanain " > <krushanain> > > wrote: > > > Dear List members, > > > Here is a chart of a female, for study purpose. > > > D.O.B. 3rd Dec 1923 > > > Time 01:01 Am IST ( GMT + 5.5) > > > At Nagoan 18:N:58, 072:E:50 India > > > Ayanansha 21:46:50 > > > > > > Events: > > > 1) married on 18th July 1942, > > > 2) 1st Female child Aug 45 > > > 3) 2nd Female child July 47 > > > 4) 3rd Male child Nov 57. > > > 5) Date of Expired 26th June 1995 > > > Please find if the events matches with the chart. > > > krushna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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