Guest guest Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Dear Ash, Yes, Saravali, by Kalyan Verma does have verses that allude to apsects between, mercury and sun or venus and sun. Its not just in a few instances that we can say the translators may have goofed up. It appears many places. That has been a big confusion with me. I do not have Saravali infront of me, but I do not recall Kalyan verma states in which varga chart to look for such an aspect. Unfortunately, besides a few nadi texts none of the sages have given an example chart. Kallyan Verma can be thought of as one of the non-seer jyotish text writer and is of a more recent origin. There are many verses in BPHS especially about dasha results, etc. do not pan out. As the results are given irrespective of the lagna. So if one states great things in shani dasha/ anter dasha, that can not hold true for simha lagna for example. I have come to a conclusion that more needs to be studies before one can draw a conclusion and one can not hang entire thesis on one thread ( Pun is intended). The vargas treated as charts has created more confusion than shed any meaningful light on the mysteries of natal horoscopy. Once we extend it to navansha ( equal weightage as rashi as mnay have propounded) then we run the risk of extending it to all divisions ( SJC school). Once we do that every planet can qualify for giving any result( I am not suggesting we o this in KAS). For example, I had seen on some list death of father being explained after the fact. The author went on to say how it happened in dasha of lord of 9th from sun in dwadashansha. Now just think about it, how many planets can qualify for the result. 1. 2nd and 7th from 9th in rashi ( In traditional sense) 2. 2nd ot 7 th from 9th from sun in rashi. 3. same houses/lords/ocuupants in dwadashansha. It would surprise me if any planet does not become a killer for father/ or mother/or aunt/ or uncle, they all will qualify. This makes it easier to explain away any event. The real test of astrolger is to make judements based on as few parameters as possible and using them judiciously. We are a long way from that and it takes a lot of experience/intuition. KAS has fewer rules and thats good, it incorporates many traditional VA things and streamlines it, thats also good. To make jyotish model reliable and repeatable is a goal every jyotishi should strive for. Coming back to aspets in amshas, somehow it has not registered with me logically that rishis had aspects or houses in mind when they talked about various divisions. Kalyan Verma is an exception as you have rightly pointed out. We have to test his combinations whether they pan out. This is an institutional effort. Just my two cents Satish --- ashsam73 <ashsam73 wrote: > Dear Satish, > > I am giving some thought to your first point let me > write them below > your reply. > > > , SPK > <aquaris_rising wrote: > > > > Dear Ash, > > > > Thanks. I was not referring to lords in navansha. > I > > was referring to lords of rashi in navansha. As an > > example if saturn in at 2 degree of aries and lets > say > > LoB is at 2 degrees of taurus. Then in navansha > saturn > > will aspect LoB of rashi chart, as saturn will be > in > > mesh navansha and LoB will be makar navansha. I > have a > > fundamental disagrrement with this as to me > > astronomically it makes no sense. > > > > ASH : In Saravali some verses are given such as > > " Should it be Mercury, that aspects the Sun in a > Sign of Venus, one > will be skilful in drawing, writing, poetry, > authorship, singing etc. > and will possess a good physique. " > > Or > > " When Venus aspects the Sun in Libra, or Taurus, one > will be a king, > or a kings minister, be endowed with wife, wealth > and pleasure galore, > be wise and timid. " > > > > So here how is this possible in Rasi? > > Now as per KAS we are saying that we are also using > aspect in Navamsa > for example Sa and Ve in 1:7 in navamsa then they > cease to become > natural Samdharmi. > > We also say that if Saturn is aspecting LoA , LoB > and LoC of Rasi in > navamsa then there is delay so in a way we are > checking aspect in Navamsa. > > So, now again KAS was kept guarded in Krushnaji's > gurujis family so I > feel that this knowledge is intact. > > If as per your example for the first law, if Venus > is in 1st 3deg20 in > libra in Rasi and sun is at say from 10 deg to > 13deg20 in Capricorn in > Rasi then they will be in 4:10 in RAsi so no aspect > but in navamsa > Venus will be in navamsa of Venus and Sun will be in > navamsa of Aries. > > Do you have any other reasoning on why if aspects > are not considered > in navamsa then such verses might be written in VA? > Your insights > will help me learn. > > Cheers !!! > Ash -> http://www.ashtro.ca > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ Be a better Globetrotter. 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Guest guest Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Dear Satish, Lol.. what a nice mail.. I could not stop laughing when I read this mail. It echo's my sentiments. Thanks for this mail lol.... My replies below yours in CAPS. , SPK <aquaris_rising wrote: > > Dear Ash, > > Yes, Saravali, by Kalyan Verma does have verses that > allude to apsects between, mercury and sun or venus > and sun. Its not just in a few instances that we can > say the translators may have goofed up. It appears > many places. That has been a big confusion with me. I ASH : YES, THATS RIGHT. SO MANY THINGS MIGHT HAVE BEEN INSERTED OR TYPOS OR EVEN MIS-TRANSLATIONS MIGHT HAVE OCCURRED OVER TIME. IN A RECENTY CHAT WITH KRUSHNAJI, KRUSHNAJI READ A VERSE FOR ME IN SANSKRIT AND SHOWED ME HOW IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN MISTRANSLATED AND HE SHOWED ME BY USING KAS AND ASHTAKVARG ON HOW THE EXACT MEANING OF THAT WAS AND WHAT THE TRANSLATION HAD BECOME. IT WAS A REAL EYE OPENER FOR ME. THAT MADE ME REALISE ONE THOUGH THAT HOW THINGS CAN BE EXPLAINED OR VERSES USING KAS AND ASHTAKAVARG. BUT THE STRANGE PART IS THAT SO MANY CLASSICS ARE TALKING OF ASHTAKVARG BUT NOT MUCH IS GIVEN IN THOSE BOOKS AND MIGHT HAVE BEEN LOST OVER TIME OR MIGHT HAVE BECOME OBSOLETE DUE TO THE DIFFICULTY IN THE COMPUTATIONS. SIMILAR IS THE CASE FOR NADIS AND ITS USE IN ASTROLOGY. U CANT FIND MUCH INFO ABOUT THAT EITHER. ALL THIS HAS REMAINED INTACT WITH KRUSHANJI AND I AM JUST BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND THE MAGNITUDE OF THE WORDS OF KRUSHANJI THAT HE HAS TALKED IN HIS INITIAL MAILS ON THE LIST EH. > do not have Saravali infront of me, but I do not > recall Kalyan verma states in which varga chart to > look for such an aspect. Unfortunately, besides a few > nadi texts none of the sages have given an example > chart. Kallyan Verma can be thought of as one of the > non-seer jyotish text writer and is of a more recent > origin. ASH : YES. > > There are many verses in BPHS especially about dasha > results, etc. do not pan out. As the results are given > irrespective of the lagna. So if one states great > things in shani dasha/ anter dasha, that can not hold > true for simha lagna for example. I have come to a > conclusion that more needs to be studies before one > can draw a conclusion and one can not hang entire > thesis on one thread ( Pun is intended). ASH : AGREED. ALL THAT PORTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN ADDED LATER ON AND MIGHT NOT BE A PART OF ORIGINAL TEXT. IT DOES NOT MAKE LOGICAL SENSE TO JUST HAVE DASHAS. HOWEVER THAT BEING SAID THEN IF DASHA'S WERE THERE THEN HOW COME ONLY VIMSHOTTARI DASHA IS GIVEN. OTHERWISE THERE ARE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF DASHA'S GIVEN BUT THEN SOME HOW THROUGH SOME VERSE ABOUT DULL PEOPLE IN KALI YUG VIMSHOTTARI DASHA IS TO BE USED OR SOME THING TO THAT EFFECT. IF THAT IS THE CASE THEN HOW COME PEOPLE USE OTHER DASHA AND THE VERY BASIC QUESTION THAT ARIESES IS WHY IS THERE SO MANY DASHA'S WHEN VIMSHOTTARI DASHA GIVES PERFECT RESULTS. AS PER KAS, WE ARE NOT USING ANY LEVELS BELOW ANTRA BUT RATHER USE SUN'S TRANSIT. SO WHERE DID ALL THOSE OTHER PRATI ANTRA, PARATI PRATI, SOOKSHAM ETC COME INTO PICTURE... THAT ALSO IS A QUESTION... IN KRUSHANJI'S GURU'S FAMILY AND IN THEIR TEXTS ALL SUCH THINGS WERE NOT THERE IF MEMORY SERVES ME RIGHT WHEN I HAD TALKED TO KRUSHANJI LONG BACK REGARDING THIS. SO ALL THIS MIGHT BE ADDED LATER ON AT SOME POINT. EVEN HOW TO USE ASHTAKVARG IS NOT GIVEN AND SOME ADDITIONS LIKE ASHTAKVARG REDUCTION ETC ARE GIVEN WHICH IS AGAIN LATER ADDTION BY SOME ENTHUSIASTS OR THEIR OWN DEDUCTION. ALSO THERE IS A QUESTION ON HOW COME PRARASARA'S SAV IS DIFFERENT FROM VARAHARAMIRA'S ? THIS IS THE BASIC BASIC PORTION OF ASHTAKVARG. SO THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME DISCRAPANCY THERE ITSELF. ALSO ITS GIVEN AND MISLEADING PEOPLE IN SOME BOOKS THAT ASHTAKVARG IS ONLY USED FOR LOGIVITY WHICH IS NOT TRUE. HERE WE ARE USING IT TO TIME ALL EVENTS OF LIFE WITH A PROPER METHODOLOGY. > > The vargas treated as charts has created more > confusion than shed any meaningful light on the > mysteries of natal horoscopy. Once we extend it to > navansha ( equal weightage as rashi as mnay have > propounded) ASH : THIS IS AS PER KAS WHERE WE SAY THAT WE SEE COMBO OF RASI IN NAVAMSA AS WELL. BUT ITS ONLY NAVAMSA. SD'S ARE ALSO FOUND IN NAVMASA. ACTUALLY THIS IS ALSO GIVEN IN STANDARD TEXT WHERE ONE SEES NEECHA BHANGA YOGS ETC IN NAVAMSA. BUT FOR STATUS WE ARE NOT USING ASPECT AND 4:10 FOR POWER OF HOUSE IN NAVAMSA. THIS IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE WHICH ONE CANNOT EASILY DECIPHER WITH THE VA TEXTS PARTICULALRY IF U ARE USING SIGN PLACEMENTS IN NAVAMSA. SO FOR POWER OF PLANETS WE ONLY USE A+B+C BUT WE ALSO FIND SD OR WHAT IS GENERALLY CALLED DEPOSITER ETC IN VA. then we run the risk of extending it to > all divisions ( SJC school). Once we do that every > planet can qualify for giving any result( I am not > suggesting we o this in KAS). ASH : WE IN KAS JUST GIVE EQUAL WEIGHTAGE TO NAVAMA AS RASI AND NOT TO ANY OTHER D CHART. INFACT WE SEE 3 MAIN D CHARTS I.E. NAVAMSA (EQUAL STATUS), DRESHKON AND TRISHANSA. YOU WILL FIND THEIR REFERENCE IN LESSONS SUCH AS FINDING INTELLEGENCE. For example, I had seen > on some list death of father being explained after the > fact. The author went on to say how it happened in > dasha of lord of 9th from sun in dwadashansha. Now > just think about it, how many planets can qualify for > the result. ASH : YES, I AGREE AND THAT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE AS WELL. > > 1. 2nd and 7th from 9th in rashi ( In traditional > sense) > 2. 2nd ot 7 th from 9th from sun in rashi. > > 3. same houses/lords/ocuupants in dwadashansha. > > It would surprise me if any planet does not become a > killer for father/ or mother/or aunt/ or uncle, they > all will qualify. ASH : MARAK IS TAKEN FOR DEATH NOW WHAT TO SAY? IN KAS WE ARE SAYING DEATH IS FROM 8TH AND 7TH AND 2ND ARE A AND B FOR ACCIDENT SO THERE IS A DISTINCTION. THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN MIXED IN DUE COURSE OF TIME. OTHERWISE WHY U SEE DEATH FROM 8TH AND NOT FROM 7TH AND 2ND ONLY. OTHERWISE IF U ARE NOT ABLE TO GET ANSWER FROM 8TH HOUSE THEN U CAN USE 7TH AND 2ND AND PLAETS IN 7TH AND 2ND AND PLANETS ASPECTING 2ND AND 7TH AND 8TH AND THEN NAVAMSA OF 8TH 2ND AND 7TH AND THEN TRISHANSA AND THEN EVENTUALLY IF U CANT FIND ANSWER GO TO PAST LIFE LOL... (PUN INTENDED) > > This makes it easier to explain away any event. > ASH : I DONT THINK ANY EVENT WILL NOT MATCH. > The real test of astrolger is to make judements based > on as few parameters as possible and using them > judiciously. We are a long way from that and it takes > a lot of experience/intuition. ASH : I AGREE WITH YOU ABSOLUTELY. > > KAS has fewer rules and thats good, it incorporates > many traditional VA things and streamlines it, thats > also good. To make jyotish model reliable and > repeatable is a goal every jyotishi should strive for. > ASH : THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. INFACT I ASKED ON ANOTHER LIST FOR SOMEOENE TO GIVE ME A SET OF GUIDELINES IN A SYSTEMATIC WAY USING THE TECHNIQUES USED BUT I GOT NO ANSWER. I WAS TOLD SOME PHILOSOPHICAL STUFF ABOUT SOME BUMBLE BEE AND TAKE LITTLE FROM HERE AND THERE. I ALSO ASKED CAN SOMEONE WRITE THE APPROACH, I STILL GOT NO ANSWER AND THEN PEOPLE ARE RECTIFYING CHARTS TILL SECONDS. NOW WHAT TO SAY....... NO WHERE I AM GETTING ANY CONCRETE APPROACH TO TIMING OF EVENT BASED ON STANDARD PROCEDURE AND THAT CAN BE REPEATED ON ALL THE CHARTS. IF I ASK I GET SOME COCK AND BULL STORY... C'EST LA VIE... > > Coming back to aspets in amshas, somehow it has not > registered with me logically that rishis had aspects > or houses in mind when they talked about various > divisions. Kalyan Verma is an exception as you have > rightly pointed out. We have to test his combinations > whether they pan out. This is an institutional effort. ASH : YES, I AGREE WITH YOUR APPROACH AND THAT HAS BEEN MINE AS WELL. THE LAWS OF DELAY CAN BE EASILY CHECKED WHERE ASPECTS ARE THERE THE LAWS OF NSD ETC CAN BE CHECKED AS WELL. IF ONE COMES TO PERFECT TIMING OF EVENTS IT MEANS THAT LAWS ARE PROPER. > > Just my two cents > ASH : BUT PRICELESS PLEASE KEEP SUCH MAILS COMING. THEY MAKE ONE THINK AND THAT WAY WE CAN GET TO THE BOTTOM OF SUCH DIFFICULT THINGS. > Satish > > > CHEERS !!! ASH -> http://www.ashtro.ca > > --- ashsam73 <ashsam73 wrote: > > > Dear Satish, > > > > I am giving some thought to your first point let me > > write them below > > your reply. > > > > > > , SPK > > <aquaris_rising@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Ash, > > > > > > Thanks. I was not referring to lords in navansha. > > I > > > was referring to lords of rashi in navansha. As an > > > example if saturn in at 2 degree of aries and lets > > say > > > LoB is at 2 degrees of taurus. Then in navansha > > saturn > > > will aspect LoB of rashi chart, as saturn will be > > in > > > mesh navansha and LoB will be makar navansha. I > > have a > > > fundamental disagrrement with this as to me > > > astronomically it makes no sense. > > > > > > > ASH : In Saravali some verses are given such as > > > > " Should it be Mercury, that aspects the Sun in a > > Sign of Venus, one > > will be skilful in drawing, writing, poetry, > > authorship, singing etc. > > and will possess a good physique. " > > > > Or > > > > " When Venus aspects the Sun in Libra, or Taurus, one > > will be a king, > > or a kings minister, be endowed with wife, wealth > > and pleasure galore, > > be wise and timid. " > > > > > > > > So here how is this possible in Rasi? > > > > Now as per KAS we are saying that we are also using > > aspect in Navamsa > > for example Sa and Ve in 1:7 in navamsa then they > > cease to become > > natural Samdharmi. > > > > We also say that if Saturn is aspecting LoA , LoB > > and LoC of Rasi in > > navamsa then there is delay so in a way we are > > checking aspect in Navamsa. > > > > So, now again KAS was kept guarded in Krushnaji's > > gurujis family so I > > feel that this knowledge is intact. > > > > If as per your example for the first law, if Venus > > is in 1st 3deg20 in > > libra in Rasi and sun is at say from 10 deg to > > 13deg20 in Capricorn in > > Rasi then they will be in 4:10 in RAsi so no aspect > > but in navamsa > > Venus will be in navamsa of Venus and Sun will be in > > navamsa of Aries. > > > > Do you have any other reasoning on why if aspects > > are not considered > > in navamsa then such verses might be written in VA? > > Your insights > > will help me learn. > > > > Cheers !!! > > Ash -> http://www.ashtro.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out. > http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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