A thought about honest discussions on

[Guest guest]

I have been struck lately by how sensitive this group is and how many people

take themselves, each other, especially Chrism, way too seriously. It's a public

discussion group, not a cloistered monastery. As much as people seem to want

that, it's not a " safe place " where everyone will always be the same, where

people won't come and go, where the guru is perfected, and where everyone neatly

agrees 100% of the time (or at least papers over every disagreement with enough

disclaimers to make a corporate lawyer proud). I like it this way, warts and

all. As long as people can't accept that, we're always going to see turmoil. The

problem is not that reality happens, it's that we can't accept reality. That's

got to be true in our lives outside the list as well.

 

I'm not seeing a lot of support for that sentiment though. What I am seeing is a

lot of victim language about how hard it is to read the truth, how people are

hurt by reading the truth, and how nice it would be if everyone, especially

Chrism, would never speak the truth. I don't mean Truth as in Ultimate Truth. I

mean truth as in the truth of honest reaction. The truth as in sincere opinion.

We're so busy avoiding the truth that of course it feels like it slaps us in the

face.

 

This probably hurts some ... and it's because the truth often does. Growth comes

from accepting pain, not from hiding from it. In this group of all places there

should be some honest discussion about that.

 

Brandi

[Guest guest]

Is this not the human condition Brandi! I think Shati is pushing us to get past these momentums.

Igor.

 

 

From: jazztalkDate: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:09:13 -0400 A thought about honest discussions on KAS-1

 

 

 

I have been struck lately by how sensitive this group is and how many people take themselves, each other, especially Chrism, way too seriously. It's a public discussion group, not a cloistered monastery. As much as people seem to want that, it's not a "safe place" where everyone will always be the same, where people won't come and go, where the guru is perfected, and where everyone neatly agrees 100% of the time (or at least papers over every disagreement with enough disclaimers to make a corporate lawyer proud). I like it this way, warts and all. As long as people can't accept that, we're always going to see turmoil. The problem is not that reality happens, it's that we can't accept reality. That's got to be true in our lives outside the list as well. I'm not seeing a lot of support for that sentiment though. What I am seeing is a lot of victim language about how hard it is to read the truth, how people are hurt by reading the truth, and how nice it would be if everyone, especially Chrism, would never speak the truth. I don't mean Truth as in Ultimate Truth. I mean truth as in the truth of honest reaction. The truth as in sincere opinion. We're so busy avoiding the truth that of course it feels like it slaps us in the face. This probably hurts some ... and it's because the truth often does. Growth comes from accepting pain, not from hiding from it. In this group of all places there should be some honest discussion about that. Brandi

[Guest guest]

I do not feel this way about the groups discussions.

 

Like Igor I do feel this group is being influenced by Shakti and

that influence will take us into different directions often.

 

If you are referring to the group protocols about posting, I do not

feel that paring down " some " of the off topic chit chat is a bad

thing. Not all of it to be sure but some of it. Niether do I feel as

if it imugnes the integrity of the discussions. Or that there is a

lack of honesty in the discussions we have. What is taken serious or

not is a personal choice that we all make.

 

That we take eachother seriously is a sign of honesty and respect

and consideration imho. We care about what is said and the dynamics

of truth in what is said. We are able to discern these dynamics for

ourselves and we dont need a guru or teacher or a chrism or anyone

for that matter to tell us that what we feel within is truthful or

honest or not. We will know and feel, and it will feel right or it

wont no matter who is posting.

 

You may have issues about the integrity of the " honest discussions "

that we have here. This is good as it gives you an opportunity to

discover in yourself why this particular reflection is coming up

with in you for attention. Perhaps this resonates with others as

well and we can learn from you and them.

 

Doesnt mean we all will have the same issue with that same

reflection. We will have our own issues with our own reflections! -

lol - blessings Brandi. - chrism

[Guest guest]

personally I feel that is there is not at least a touch of humor, then

its not shakti (although everything is shakti..)..its an ego

contracting on itself... Shakti likes to have fun. Yes, honor each

other, and then dont be shy to poke and prod and question a little..

 

whats that saying... if you get serious, you get stupid??

 

imh (and playful ) o

Bruce

[Guest guest]

I don't think you are understanding my intent. Let me

attempt to clarify ...

At 10:26 PM 8/19/2008, you wrote:

Like Igor I do feel this group

is being influenced by Shakti and

that influence will take us into different directions

often.

I'm not referring to that, quite the opposite. I like some of those

directions. I am referring to the not infrequent complaints that this

post or that one is " painful " in some way. I've seen a lot of

" please protect us " stuff going on and I'm questioning where

that comes from.

That we take eachother seriously

is a sign of honesty and respect

and consideration imho.

I am all for being " serious " or thoughtful, and being

considerate of each other's feelings. There is a difference between that

and taking every little offhand comment or opposing opinion as some form

of threat (taking oneself, the teacher or the group too seriously). Of

course we must all treat each other and the space with respect. But I've

seen this group recently described in lofty terms that don't match the

reality. It's still an Internet discussion group. From time to time,

people will stumble in who don't fit, or whose ideas offend us ... if

that is painful to people the answer isn't to circle the wagons, it's to

learn how to accept such things. It's not the off topic posts and the

arguments that I'm drawing attention to, it's the grumbling about these

things that I was grumbling about <g> ... and I do see a certain

hypocrisy in my saying so out loud (after all, I am complaining about

other people's complaining, heh heh) ... I just thought it was

interesting, because I also see some hypocrisy in being mean-spirited to

people who one judges as mean-spirited, and I have seen some of that here

recently too (not a lot ... but it happens).

You may have issues about the

integrity of the " honest discussions "

that we have here. This is good as it gives you an opportunity to

discover in yourself why this particular reflection is coming up

with in you for attention. Perhaps this resonates with others as

well and we can learn from you and them.

I I always do that whenever I feel triggered, it's kind of a hobby

<g>. That's an excellent idea, we should all be doing it. This was

an observation without a lot of charge behind it. Still, you are right, I

do have issues with this that are not resolved yet. I struggle with the

balance between truth and tact all the time, especially online. I see a

lot of " let's all get along " and part of me used to sing in

that chorus. I figured I could be happy online " if only " I

could find a group with a perfect moderator who would keep me safe from

all the nasty things that bothered me (laugh). What I didn't realize was

I was giving away my power to the very people who troubled me the

most.

I also noticed in the rare spaces where that actually happens, that the

conversation is sweet and pleasant ... and not truthful (and eventually

not meaningful - in some cases, there is nothing left to talk about). I

often find myself feeling stifled by the demand for unanimity. For those

who decry any disagreement here, I was suggesting that they consider the

possibility that what they are really asking others to do is to lie to

protect their comfort zone. Is that the growth they are after?

The reality is we will occasionally disagree. That's a good thing.

We can't learn from each other if we always agree. It's not automatically

an attack if someone says something I don't agree with. Sometimes it

is an attack (being called a " murderer " certainly

qualifies as a personal attack imo) ... but most of the stuff I've seen

objected to here is merely disagreement. If that makes people

uncomfortable, I think the solution is learning how to cope with

disagreement, to learn to master the art of disagreement with respect.

I'm still working on the latter myself, and I can't count the number of

times lately I've had some insight but stopped myself from posting

because of one person or the other that I knew could not handle what I

have to say. In a group like this, that's ironic, don't you

think?

Brandi

[Guest guest]

I can't count the number of times lately I've had some insight but

stopped myself from posting because of one person or the other that

I knew could not handle what I have to say. >

> Brandi

 

Yes I know this feeling. - lol.

 

And yes as you say we are an internet group. But that fact does not

suggest a lesser or greater assembelage of people. In reality we are

a collection of consciousness that comes to a certain place for

certain information. Like any kind of school or gathering point for

the aquisition of certain understandings, we are as that is.

 

And that is a celebration! And in this celebration of our

friendships and sharings I extend my feelings of love and joy for

your presence Brandi and everyones presence as we share our paths

and our experiences on our paths. A great many opportunities for

experience and enlightenment await us as we journey into the

Kundalini. - my take - chrism

[Guest guest]

>

> I'm not referring to that, quite the opposite. I like

> some of those directions. I am referring to the not

> infrequent complaints that this post or that one is

> " painful " in some way. I've seen a lot of

> " please protect us " stuff going on and I'm

> questioning where that comes from.

 

 

You ask that we be able to be open and honest, maybe the " ouch this hurts " is an

open and honest response for that person and should be honoured as much as any

other comment.

We cannot control each others responses only our own.

 

Love and blessings

elektra x x x

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

At 04:40 AM 8/20/2008, you wrote:

You ask that we be able to be

open and honest, maybe the " ouch this hurts " is an open and

honest response for that person and should be honoured as much as any

other comment.

I can accept " ouch this hurts " . I can accept argument with an

idea or an assessment. It's when " and you/they should be

censored " where I start to feel there is a sign of something less

than healthy.

I also object to the word " ego " being used as an epithet. I've

seen a fair bit of that. It seems to be some sort of accusation of

illegitimacy. Our ego is part of our personality. We all have one, it's

hubris to suggest someone else's is at play while denying our own base

motivations. I know I've thought this, don't know if I have said it

before, but the moment someone accuses another of ego ... one's own ego

is at play imnsho. I acknowledge my own potential hypocrisy at even

bringing up the topic <g> ... but I can think of no other way to

see a discussion on it, to get people thinking.

We cannot control each others

responses only our own.

True. That's exactly what I was getting at. If we can't be happy or

comfortable until other people change ... we're never going to be happy.

This is a big insight and it's something I need constant reminder on

myself.

Brandi

[Guest guest]

At 06:55 PM 8/19/2008, you wrote:

Is this not the human condition

Brandi! I think Shati is pushing us to get past these

momentums.

I am sure you are right about that. One of my favorite books right now is

" Why People Don't Heal " by Caroline Myss. She is far more

persuasive than I <g> ... I really got a lot out of the ideas in

that book.

Brandi

[Guest guest]

At 12:31 AM 8/20/2008, you wrote:

Shakti likes to have fun. Yes,

honor each

other, and then dont be shy to poke and prod and question a

little..

whats that saying... if you get serious, you get

stupid??

Laugh! Yes, thank you ... and sometimes I get stupid myself he he

....

Brandi

[Guest guest]

At 03:28 AM 8/20/2008, you wrote:

And yes as you say we are an

internet group. But that fact does not

suggest a lesser or greater assembelage of people.

I apologize if I gave some other impression. I'm not demeaning what is

being done here, just looking at it realistically. I felt some folks were

putting the space, each other, and you on a pedestal, and I know that

will lead them to disappointment. I was hoping maybe at least one person

might see that. I know many times in my life I said to myself I'd be

happy " if only " ... but the conditions I set were not

realistic. I'm a lot happier now that I know not everyone will agree with

me, heck, they don't always even understand me ;-) ... and that's

okay.

And that is a celebration!

 

A celebration is perfect, yes! I like that way of looking at it. And

every party has a few crashers, he he ... that doesn't mean it can't

still be fun! This is even better. There are no twit filters at a real

party <g> ...

And in this celebration of our

 

friendships and sharings I extend my feelings of love and joy for

your presence Brandi and everyones presence as we share our paths

and our experiences on our paths.

Thank you.

Brandi

[Guest guest]

i was sad to read shahin's post had been censored,

i liked some of the points he made and being nosey by nature

i'd have liked to have heard it all and made my own mind up..

 

***I also object to the word " ego " being used as an epithet.***

i agree brandi, the ego is part of us and a teacher,by looking at

the ego you can learn a lot.. embrace ..

 

i also worry about people with vices , why do the have to erradicate

them? they must have a reason to be there, if they are there, we

must learn to turn a vice, from its negative ,to its positive

aspect..without anialation, its part of us.

i think of it, symbolised by the embrace of the shiva and shakti and

then shakti turns to him , her god...

 

we take the negative and turn it positive..

embrace it all...

paula

[Guest guest]

, Brandi Jasmine

<jazztalk wrote:>

> I apologize if I gave some other impression. I'm not demeaning what

is being done here, just looking at it realistically. I felt some

folks were putting the space, each other, and you on a pedestal, and I

know that will lead them to disappointment.

 

This doesnt necessarily lead to disappointment, you may be projecting

here. We come here to learn from eachother and in this process if that

means puttting folks up on a pedestal this is ok. A pedestal allows us

to us to see who is talking and allows them to been seen for the

person they are and the information they wish to share. We all get to

sit on it. Doesnt need to mean being worshipped.

 

If the space gives us information - and it does - then this is good.

And it can be admired or held up as a good place. This doesnt hurt or

disappoint. It merely shows appreciation. And the same can be said for

everyone who posts here. We all have contributions that are meaningful

even the hurtful ones. So they get held up and put up on the pedestal.

 

We are adult enough to not engage in demegogery I feel.

 

Kundalini information isnt so easy to come by in formats that can be

applied to our modern day life. Not everyone wants to learn Sanskrit.

To have a place to share and relate experiences and answer questions

is a good thing and worthy of being placed on a pedestal.

 

Nothing anyone does or recieves here needs to lead to disappointment.

It can lead to a much brighter future. And with the Kundalini that can

be a real experience.imho. - chrism

[Guest guest]

At 01:29 PM 8/20/2008, you wrote:

This doesnt necessarily lead to

disappointment, you may be projecting

here.

We're all always projecting <g> ... I'll accept that as a

given.

We come here to

learn from eachother and in this process if that

means puttting folks up on a pedestal this is ok.

 

Yes - it is certainly okay ... just pointing it out and asking the

question ... is that an effective approach? If it works for ya, by all

means. But that wasn't what I was hearing. What I heard was ...

woundedness. " Please protect me, I can't bear to see this

anymore " . I've been there. I wanted to draw some attention to that,

and I achieved what I set out to do. We're discussing it. That's all I

wanted. I wasn't calling for you to change your decisions about how the

list is run or anything like that. I think you and your moderators

already do an awesome job.

We all get to sit

on it. Doesnt need to mean being worshipped.

But that's the danger eh.

Not everyone wants

to learn Sanskrit.

Laugh! I resemble that remark!

Nothing anyone does

or recieves here needs to lead to disappointment.

It can lead to a much brighter future. And with the Kundalini that can

 

be a real experience.imho. - chrism

It will be that either way.

Brandi

[Guest guest]

Brandi Jasmine <jazztalk wrote:

>

> I don't think you are understanding my intent. Let me attempt to

clarify ...

>

>> At 10:26 PM 8/19/2008, you wrote:

>> >Like Igor I do feel this group is being influenced by Shakti and

>> >that influence will take us into different directions often.

>>

 

> I'm not referring to that, quite the opposite. I like some of those

>directions. I am referring to the not infrequent complaints that this

>post or that one is " painful " in some way. I've seen a lot of " please

>protect us " stuff going on and I'm questioning where that comes from.

 

 

Not knowing what posts you are referring to i can not comment on one

directly. But just because someone says a post is painful does not

necessarily mean they are wanting to be protected. It can also mean

that they are grateful to have something painful brought to the

surface. This is the process of Kundalini purifying something.

The person then has the opportunity to be freed of the pain that has

surfaced. And the person has enough trust in the group to share.

 

Some do not like the depth of vunerability this process can

bring up in oneself & others. Makes them feel very uncomfortable.

I appreciated the honesty of what shared last week in his

own process. That's getting real with oneself and it gave permission

to the group to go into their own darkness more. At least this

was my take.

 

 

>

> >That we take eachother seriously is a sign of honesty and respect

> >and consideration imho.

>

> I am all for being " serious " or thoughtful, and being considerate of

>each other's feelings. There is a difference between that and taking

>every little offhand comment or opposing opinion as some form of

>threat (taking oneself, the teacher or the group too seriously).

 

 

 

Then perhaps one may wish to look at why they felt the need to

give an offhanded comment. What are they trying to avoid looking

at within themselves.

 

 

Moon