Guest guest Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Hi Mikael,I'm giving a shot at your inquiry and yes, you are right this is a good discussion you began. To your queries, I've added other points which are of importance and would also be essential to your good discussion, so please feel free to add or question as you please. Here goes what in my years of studies I have come to experience and understand.The naive seeker is fair game for any and all would be captors via various ideologies through the sheer influence of numbers, persuasion, and charisma. Peer pressure for the gullible is also prevalent so that finding one's way through the thickets of profuse religious and purportedly spiritual teachings becomes hazardous and problematic. It requires some inner conviction and means of guidance to not follow the throngs of worshipers because the herd instinct is strong. Surely, one's mind says to itself, "All those millions of people could not be wrong or be misled by error". To find the answer to this paradox, we merely need to examine the makeup of those throngs of often-zealous believers. Think about this, actions and survival take place automatically and are actually autonomous. Activated by the life energy emanating from the Self, and the qualities of the universe supply the forms. Notice, for instance, that in clinical states of amnesia, human life continues even when the source of imagined identity is lost. Notice then that all fear is fear of loss of identity, existence/survival.In nonduality, there is neither a knower nor that which is known because they have become one and the same. Nothing is incomplete. Omniscience is self-completion. There is no desire for the next second of experiencing that propels the ordinary mind, which, from moment to moment, always feels incomplete. The conscious pursuit of spiritual goals is the result of a choice and a decision. It actually requires only willingness and the capacity to follow through. Even a simple spiritual concept is a deceptively powerful tool. The simple decision to be kind, forgiving, and compassionate to all life in all its expressions, including, one's own self is a scalpel that is capable of removing the major impediments to spiritual progress. With humility, one can see that the mind is limited and incapable of seeing all the circumstances surrounding any event. Out of this arises the willingness to let go of condemnation and judgment. This process results in a willingness to surrender one's experience of the world to God, and only God. It becomes apparent that the world does not really need one's personal opinions about anything at all. If one decides to take a charitable view of life's events, then alternate ways of interpreting circumstances, appearances, and other options will open up. An obstacle that is likely to arise is impatience, which sometimes reaches the level of desperation. There is, therefore, sometimes the awful grief at the disappearance of that illuminated state of the Self, or the guilt that perhaps one has done something to deserve being separated from it. One beseeches God in the High Heavens for assistance. The Soul is unwilling and now perhaps even unable to settle for anything less than the presence of God, and only God. Surrender occurs at greater and greater depths until there is finally a willingness to let even one's very self as "I" disappear. That "self" goes deeper and is stronger than one had suspected. Its hold seems tenacious and fierce, that damn ego.Then, by the greatest surrender, which is accomplished not by one's own will but by the Grace of God, the agony of the death of the ego/self ocurs and seems almost unbearable. It then disappears into eternity and into the vacancy swells the All-encompassing Presence in stunning glory and radiance. That one ever experienced oneself as separate or not identical with that Presence is unthinkable, and incomprehensible. There is no explanation at that level of awareness. There arises the potentiality for the one to know and experience itself as One. It is sumultaneous by both and yet neither. That is the present state or condition, all potentiality, all possibility, all states, all of them, yet none of them. It is not vervally unexplicable.Thus, faith and belief are necessary to start a journey, but verifiable knowledge is necessary to complete it. Without a compass or sextant, the average sailor on the seas ends up at the bottom. As the Buddha said. "Few are they who endeavor to make the journey, and fewer and rarer still are those who succeed". (Krishna said the same thing in the Bhagavad-Gita). The concern expressed here is for the success and welfare of all mankind whose history, until very recently, has been quite tragic. To own oneself completely is to own all humanity. The Self is the same Self in all, and society represents the collective ego. To look at all mankind in its totality throughout history takes us through the collective consciousness. When on looks at man, it brings grief, sadness, hopelessness, depression, guilt, remorse, or regret. We see man as being miserable, evil, hopeless, tragic, and frightening. With courage, we see that change for the better is feasible. We stop blaming, hating, and fearing, and lift ourselves out of victimhood, weakness and apathy and strive to make the world better. We give up self blame and self pity and affirm the power within us. To reach Truth, we have to accept that mankind has been in much error and that the reason was ingnorance. Through understanding, we can learn to become compassionate and seek to recontextualize our relationship to the whole, the relationship with God and only God.It is consciousness itself that activates the body and its activities and reponses. Its persistance is spontaneous and unintentional. The Self reaquires neither speech nor company nor activities and yet it experiences joy in all things. It delights in love in all its various expressions as existence. Because all that exists is aware, love is recognized by all of Nature, which responds in like. The essence of Reality shines forth as luminescence. The Self unconditionally loves all that exists. All love benefits all life and all mankind. Even to love one's pet dog actually benefits all mankind and is noticed by God.Each piece of information contributes to intuitive understanding, and recognition. Truth is recognized. It presents itself to a field of awareness that has been prepared in order to allow the presentation to reveal itself. Truth and enlightenment are not acquired or achieved. It is a state or condition that presents itself when the conditions are appropriate. Humility is of greater value than all factual accumulation. Unless one has completely and totally experienced the presence of God in its stunning, absolute Allness, it is safe for me to say that one really knows nothing and that all accumulated so-called knowledge is but ignorance and pride. Anything within that claims "I know, or is my humble opinion" by that very statement proves that it is false or else it would not make such a claim. The thought, "I know" precludes the ultimate awareness of the real "I Am". The word "know" is dualistic and assumes a dichotomy between a separate subjest, the "knower", and something external to be known. That is the basic error of duality, which assumes the perceptual point of observation. Actually, the subjective and the objective are one and the same. To say otherwise is merely to be arbitrary. To truly know something, is to become the "known" and the "knower" simultaneously.The ego is made up of a compilation of arbitrary points of views supplied by mentation and powered by feelings and emotions. These desires represents the attachments that the Buddha spoke of as the bondage of suffering. With absolute humility, the ego dissolves. It is a collection of arbitrary mentations that gain force only because of vanity and habit. If one lets go of the vanity of thought, it dissolves. All thought is vanity. All opinions are vanities. The pleasure of vanity is therefore the basis of the ego, unplug it and it collapses. In higher states of consciousness, it becomes silent in the Presence. To even have a single thought in the presence of the Presence would not be within the realm of the doable nor would there be the likelihood of bringing up such an outlandish pomposity, such an opinion.Ideation persists because it is valued. Notice that everyone has an opinion on everything. Notice that all thoughts are merely pointifications. Everyone is enamored of their own thoughts and ideas, even though they are worthless. Education gives reliability to thought processes and therefore of action. This is useful in the world but does not lead to enlightenment. To become educated is one objective, to become enlightened is another. Many are the educated, and few are the enlightened.I have asked the question "But is there not reality to experiencing that which is myself?" All seeming separation is an artifact of thought. It is essential to see that the mind is at all times experiencing a point of view. "Then what about illusion?" The entire perceptual illusion that the ego claims to be reality is completely and totally a product of positionality. This is very important to unravel and understand in one's own experiential awareness. If you observe carefully, you will note that at the time the mind is taking a position, that position stems from choice, training, desire, emotion, or political or religious viewpoints. From the arbitrary positionalities of moralizing, all actions and events can be categorized as right of wrong. From that positionality stems all the pointless sacrifice and sufferings of the world.The core of the I is the Self of Divinity expressed as awareness. The unmanisfest, transcendental divinity of Allah/God/Brahman/Krishna becomes manifest as the Self/Atman, the immanent divinity. Spiritual evolution occurs as the result of removing obstacle and not actually acquiring anything new. Devotion enables surrender of the mind's vanities and cherished illusions so that it progressively becomes freer and more open to the light of Truth. Illumination refers to those spiritual states where sufficient barriers have been dropped, either deliberately or unconsciously, so that a greater context suddenly presents itself, and in so doing, illuminates, clarifies, and reveals an expanded field of consciousness actually experienced as inner light. This is the light of awareness, the radiance of the Self that emanates as a profound lovingness. Although, for many people, the experience may not last (as in near-death experiences),the residual effect is permanent and transformative. In due time, the light is likely to return again for periods of infinite bliss, peace, and silence, followed by a profound gratitude for the gift. The unforgettable event tends to set up a yearning to return to that state, which may result in the willingness to give up everything in this world to do so. Curiosity is replaced by dedication, surrender to God and only God, and devotion. Spiritual inspiration, strengthens and becomes the guiding light of one's life. All human desires fade away in comparison to what is now realized as the ultimately possible state. One then has become truly a devotee and a servant of God and only God for whom one is willing to surrender all that this life has to offer.One important devotion is meditation. There is no perfect way to meditate, there is no guidance needed to meditate, there is no need for books, instructional manual or guru to teach the "art" of meditation. One sits and quietly go, within. Nothing more to it, how much information is there to be found or to be searched for to learn just to sit quietly and go, within? None. God did not give us the tool of meditation with the intent to have us find a teacher to give us the instructions. God gave us the meditation tool in one complete package, instructional manual included, one just sits (or lays down) quietly and go within. Period. This point, I am making, for those of you who still do not know how to meditate. By the way forgo the CDs, singing bowls, chantings or the likes for it just creates clutter in your mind and you will not be able to follow the simple instructions, sit quietly and go, within.Consciousness advances itself when it is provided with essential information that then becomes activated by intention. This in turn prompts inspiration, humility, and surrender to God and only God, and these tendencies become progressively more operative. When dominant, they lead to dedication and perseverance. Spiritual endeavor in the past was really quite unreliable, and seekers were prone to falling into misleading error with no way of realizing what had happened or why. Sometimes high levels of Truth are mixed in with serious spiritual misteachings, and what could have led to real progress led instead to spiritual disaster. Often the misleading spiritual teachings the seeker is acquiring escapes the seeker's detection. Through the mass media, the web, television, newspapers..etc, great numbers of people are deceived, and millions of dollars flow in the pious-sounding spiritual teachers, guasi gurus, and ecclesiastic public figures. It is actually the talk that is glib. If the sound is turned off on the televesion set, simple observation reveals the truth. Happily, Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita that "Even if a devotte is misled by pious teachers and on the wrong path, if his heart is devoted to God and only God, He will favor him as His". The impact on the devotee who has been misled is severe when the spiritual rape is uncovered. The disillusionment is more severe than that which follows deception in personal life. Some dejected former devotees never recover and go on to severe depression and total collapse. Some become like walking shells. Spiritual error by the devotee from following false gurus/teachers, can be grave and permanently damaging, therefore, the frequent admonition of caveat emptor recurs in all the teachings offered by ANY spiritual teacher.In closing, one must address first where in the spiritual path the seeker is at, where is the seeker obtaining the education, information or teachings? Is the education, information or teaching reliable? Truthful? or is it a serious spiritual error, leading the seeker to a path deep into the darkness of spiritual despair? To self or not to Self, now THAT is the question.Georgemikael <mixolyd Sent: Friday, September 5, 2008 7:15:22 AM oneness hi everyone, i'm trying to figure out what the goal is of this particular practice and path, and reading through the articles it seems to be Oneness http://www.kundalin iawakeningsystem s1.com/kundalini -oneness. html from what i'm reading though in teachings of modern mystics like Ken Wilber, Jim Marion, Bernadette Roberts and ancient teachings of tibetan buddhism, there is something beyond the state of union, of oneness. in that state of oneness there is still a duality, there is still a witness that calls itself "me". in Jim Marion's book he writes about the causal state, or the Christ state, being "one with God" the feeling of being the son of God, a "co-creator" which seems to be the goal here -- and the crucifixion being the metaphor for what must occur after, the final death of the witness, or soul, and the resurrection into the state of non-duality or kingdom of heaven. randomly happened upon a really good article today explaining this http://www.guruswam ig.com/beyondone ness.html i'm hoping to start a good discussion about this here. what are ya'll thoughts on oneness, the goal, if there is anything anything after mikael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Resonating with this, and feel a bit more enlightened. And I can LIE DOWN and MEDITATE. YIPEEE................. Julie--- On Fri, 9/5/08, George Clifford <georgetheclifford wrote: George Clifford <georgetheclifford oneness-Mikael Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 3:43 AM Hi Mikael,I'm giving a shot at your inquiry and yes, you are right this is a good discussion you began. To your queries, I've added other points which are of importance and would also be essential to your good discussion, so please feel free to add or question as you please. Here goes what in my years of studies I have come to experience and understand.The naive seeker is fair game for any and all would be captors via various ideologies through the sheer influence of numbers, persuasion, and charisma. Peer pressure for the gullible is also prevalent so that finding one's way through the thickets of profuse religious and purportedly spiritual teachings becomes hazardous and problematic. It requires some inner conviction and means of guidance to not follow the throngs of worshipers because the herd instinct is strong. Surely, one's mind says to itself, "All those millions of people could not be wrong or be misled by error". To find the answer to this paradox, we merely need to examine the makeup of those throngs of often-zealous believers. Think about this, actions and survival take place automatically and are actually autonomous. Activated by the life energy emanating from the Self, and the qualities of the universe supply the forms. Notice, for instance, that in clinical states of amnesia, human life continues even when the source of imagined identity is lost. Notice then that all fear is fear of loss of identity, existence/survival.In nonduality, there is neither a knower nor that which is known because they have become one and the same. Nothing is incomplete. Omniscience is self-completion. There is no desire for the next second of experiencing that propels the ordinary mind, which, from moment to moment, always feels incomplete. The conscious pursuit of spiritual goals is the result of a choice and a decision. It actually requires only willingness and the capacity to follow through. Even a simple spiritual concept is a deceptively powerful tool. The simple decision to be kind, forgiving, and compassionate to all life in all its expressions, including, one's own self is a scalpel that is capable of removing the major impediments to spiritual progress. With humility, one can see that the mind is limited and incapable of seeing all the circumstances surrounding any event. Out of this arises the willingness to let go of condemnation and judgment. This process results in a willingness to surrender one's experience of the world to God, and only God. It becomes apparent that the world does not really need one's personal opinions about anything at all. If one decides to take a charitable view of life's events, then alternate ways of interpreting circumstances, appearances, and other options will open up. An obstacle that is likely to arise is impatience, which sometimes reaches the level of desperation. There is, therefore, sometimes the awful grief at the disappearance of that illuminated state of the Self, or the guilt that perhaps one has done something to deserve being separated from it. One beseeches God in the High Heavens for assistance. The Soul is unwilling and now perhaps even unable to settle for anything less than the presence of God, and only God. Surrender occurs at greater and greater depths until there is finally a willingness to let even one's very self as "I" disappear. That "self" goes deeper and is stronger than one had suspected. Its hold seems tenacious and fierce, that damn ego.Then, by the greatest surrender, which is accomplished not by one's own will but by the Grace of God, the agony of the death of the ego/self ocurs and seems almost unbearable. It then disappears into eternity and into the vacancy swells the All-encompassing Presence in stunning glory and radiance. That one ever experienced oneself as separate or not identical with that Presence is unthinkable, and incomprehensible. There is no explanation at that level of awareness. There arises the potentiality for the one to know and experience itself as One. It is sumultaneous by both and yet neither. That is the present state or condition, all potentiality, all possibility, all states, all of them, yet none of them. It is not vervally unexplicable.Thus, faith and belief are necessary to start a journey, but verifiable knowledge is necessary to complete it. Without a compass or sextant, the average sailor on the seas ends up at the bottom. As the Buddha said. "Few are they who endeavor to make the journey, and fewer and rarer still are those who succeed". (Krishna said the same thing in the Bhagavad-Gita) . The concern expressed here is for the success and welfare of all mankind whose history, until very recently, has been quite tragic. To own oneself completely is to own all humanity. The Self is the same Self in all, and society represents the collective ego. To look at all mankind in its totality throughout history takes us through the collective consciousness. When on looks at man, it brings grief, sadness, hopelessness, depression, guilt, remorse, or regret. We see man as being miserable, evil, hopeless, tragic, and frightening. With courage, we see that change for the better is feasible. We stop blaming, hating, and fearing, and lift ourselves out of victimhood, weakness and apathy and strive to make the world better. We give up self blame and self pity and affirm the power within us. To reach Truth, we have to accept that mankind has been in much error and that the reason was ingnorance. Through understanding, we can learn to become compassionate and seek to recontextualize our relationship to the whole, the relationship with God and only God.It is consciousness itself that activates the body and its activities and reponses. Its persistance is spontaneous and unintentional. The Self reaquires neither speech nor company nor activities and yet it experiences joy in all things. It delights in love in all its various expressions as existence. Because all that exists is aware, love is recognized by all of Nature, which responds in like. The essence of Reality shines forth as luminescence. The Self unconditionally loves all that exists. All love benefits all life and all mankind. Even to love one's pet dog actually benefits all mankind and is noticed by God.Each piece of information contributes to intuitive understanding, and recognition. Truth is recognized. It presents itself to a field of awareness that has been prepared in order to allow the presentation to reveal itself. Truth and enlightenment are not acquired or achieved. It is a state or condition that presents itself when the conditions are appropriate. Humility is of greater value than all factual accumulation. Unless one has completely and totally experienced the presence of God in its stunning, absolute Allness, it is safe for me to say that one really knows nothing and that all accumulated so-called knowledge is but ignorance and pride. Anything within that claims "I know, or is my humble opinion" by that very statement proves that it is false or else it would not make such a claim. The thought, "I know" precludes the ultimate awareness of the real "I Am". The word "know" is dualistic and assumes a dichotomy between a separate subjest, the "knower", and something external to be known. That is the basic error of duality, which assumes the perceptual point of observation. Actually, the subjective and the objective are one and the same. To say otherwise is merely to be arbitrary. To truly know something, is to become the "known" and the "knower" simultaneously.The ego is made up of a compilation of arbitrary points of views supplied by mentation and powered by feelings and emotions. These desires represents the attachments that the Buddha spoke of as the bondage of suffering. With absolute humility, the ego dissolves. It is a collection of arbitrary mentations that gain force only because of vanity and habit. If one lets go of the vanity of thought, it dissolves. All thought is vanity. All opinions are vanities. The pleasure of vanity is therefore the basis of the ego, unplug it and it collapses. In higher states of consciousness, it becomes silent in the Presence. To even have a single thought in the presence of the Presence would not be within the realm of the doable nor would there be the likelihood of bringing up such an outlandish pomposity, such an opinion.Ideation persists because it is valued. Notice that everyone has an opinion on everything. Notice that all thoughts are merely pointifications. Everyone is enamored of their own thoughts and ideas, even though they are worthless. Education gives reliability to thought processes and therefore of action. This is useful in the world but does not lead to enlightenment. To become educated is one objective, to become enlightened is another. Many are the educated, and few are the enlightened.I have asked the question "But is there not reality to experiencing that which is myself?" All seeming separation is an artifact of thought. It is essential to see that the mind is at all times experiencing a point of view. "Then what about illusion?" The entire perceptual illusion that the ego claims to be reality is completely and totally a product of positionality. This is very important to unravel and understand in one's own experiential awareness. If you observe carefully, you will note that at the time the mind is taking a position, that position stems from choice, training, desire, emotion, or political or religious viewpoints. From the arbitrary positionalities of moralizing, all actions and events can be categorized as right of wrong. From that positionality stems all the pointless sacrifice and sufferings of the world.The core of the I is the Self of Divinity expressed as awareness. The unmanisfest, transcendental divinity of Allah/God/Brahman/ Krishna becomes manifest as the Self/Atman, the immanent divinity. Spiritual evolution occurs as the result of removing obstacle and not actually acquiring anything new. Devotion enables surrender of the mind's vanities and cherished illusions so that it progressively becomes freer and more open to the light of Truth. Illumination refers to those spiritual states where sufficient barriers have been dropped, either deliberately or unconsciously, so that a greater context suddenly presents itself, and in so doing, illuminates, clarifies, and reveals an expanded field of consciousness actually experienced as inner light. This is the light of awareness, the radiance of the Self that emanates as a profound lovingness. Although, for many people, the experience may not last (as in near-death experiences) ,the residual effect is permanent and transformative. In due time, the light is likely to return again for periods of infinite bliss, peace, and silence, followed by a profound gratitude for the gift. The unforgettable event tends to set up a yearning to return to that state, which may result in the willingness to give up everything in this world to do so. Curiosity is replaced by dedication, surrender to God and only God, and devotion. Spiritual inspiration, strengthens and becomes the guiding light of one's life. All human desires fade away in comparison to what is now realized as the ultimately possible state. One then has become truly a devotee and a servant of God and only God for whom one is willing to surrender all that this life has to offer.One important devotion is meditation. There is no perfect way to meditate, there is no guidance needed to meditate, there is no need for books, instructional manual or guru to teach the "art" of meditation. One sits and quietly go, within. Nothing more to it, how much information is there to be found or to be searched for to learn just to sit quietly and go, within? None. God did not give us the tool of meditation with the intent to have us find a teacher to give us the instructions. God gave us the meditation tool in one complete package, instructional manual included, one just sits (or lays down) quietly and go within. Period. This point, I am making, for those of you who still do not know how to meditate. By the way forgo the CDs, singing bowls, chantings or the likes for it just creates clutter in your mind and you will not be able to follow the simple instructions, sit quietly and go, within.Consciousness advances itself when it is provided with essential information that then becomes activated by intention. This in turn prompts inspiration, humility, and surrender to God and only God, and these tendencies become progressively more operative. When dominant, they lead to dedication and perseverance. Spiritual endeavor in the past was really quite unreliable, and seekers were prone to falling into misleading error with no way of realizing what had happened or why. Sometimes high levels of Truth are mixed in with serious spiritual misteachings, and what could have led to real progress led instead to spiritual disaster. Often the misleading spiritual teachings the seeker is acquiring escapes the seeker's detection. Through the mass media, the web, television, newspapers.. etc, great numbers of people are deceived, and millions of dollars flow in the pious-sounding spiritual teachers, guasi gurus, and ecclesiastic public figures. It is actually the talk that is glib. If the sound is turned off on the televesion set, simple observation reveals the truth. Happily, Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita that "Even if a devotte is misled by pious teachers and on the wrong path, if his heart is devoted to God and only God, He will favor him as His". The impact on the devotee who has been misled is severe when the spiritual rape is uncovered. The disillusionment is more severe than that which follows deception in personal life. Some dejected former devotees never recover and go on to severe depression and total collapse. Some become like walking shells. Spiritual error by the devotee from following false gurus/teachers, can be grave and permanently damaging, therefore, the frequent admonition of caveat emptor recurs in all the teachings offered by ANY spiritual teacher.In closing, one must address first where in the spiritual path the seeker is at, where is the seeker obtaining the education, information or teachings? Is the education, information or teaching reliable? Truthful? or is it a serious spiritual error, leading the seeker to a path deep into the darkness of spiritual despair? To self or not to Self, now THAT is the question.George mikael <mixolyd (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Kundalini-Awakening -Systems- 1 Friday, September 5, 2008 7:15:22 AM[Kundalini-Awakenin g-Systems- 1] oneness hi everyone,i'm trying to figure out what the goal is of this particular practiceand path, and reading through the articles it seems to be Onenesshttp://www.kundalin iawakeningsystem s1.com/kundalini -oneness. htmlfrom what i'm reading though in teachings of modern mystics like KenWilber, Jim Marion, Bernadette Roberts and ancient teachings oftibetan buddhism, there is something beyond the state of union, ofoneness. in that state of oneness there is still a duality, there isstill a witness that calls itself "me". in Jim Marion's book he writesabout the causal state, or the Christ state, being "one with God" thefeeling of being the son of God, a "co-creator" which seems to be thegoal here --and the crucifixion being the metaphor for what must occur after, thefinal death of the witness, or soul, and the resurrection into thestate of non-duality or kingdom of heaven. randomly happened upon a really good article today explaining thishttp://www.guruswam ig.com/beyondone ness.htmli'm hoping to start a good discussion about this here. what are ya'llthoughts on oneness, the goal, if there is anything anything aftermikael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 thanks for your response George your response is much more philosophical than what I was trying to discuss. though using our minds we can only be speculative. i think though that we don't have to be so theoretical here you made some great points and i have nothing that i disagree with, though the way you use God at times (maybe to my ignorant mind) sounds like the mythological God instead of God as emptiness, or Self. the way you went from buddhist teachings to talking about pleasing God by loving your dog was sort of confusing to me. who is pleasing God if God is All? i think that you can agree that once you understand buddhism and non-duality, even talking about God as a subject seems ridiculous. i'm sure that you were just trying to convey something that i missed. but really this is another topic and i'm not trying to argue philosophy here. if you check out Ken Wilbers work he clearly lays out a map of the evolution of consciousness from the gross state to subtle to causal to nondual, this map is found in all wisdom traditions mostly. though some stop earlier than others. christian mystics for instance tend to stop at the causal, union with god, but some like bernadette roberts go beyond that. buddhism aims for the non-dual, later schools. the earlier schools went for causal. so i'm not trying to argue philosophy but rather, see what people here see as the goal. as this is based on previous experiential data it is no longer philosophy. , George Clifford <georgetheclifford wrote: > > Hi Mikael, > I'm giving a shot at your inquiry and yes, you are right this is a good discussion you began. To your queries, I've added other points which are of importance and would also be essential to your good discussion, so please feel free to add or question as you please. Here goes what in my years of studies I have come to experience and understand. > > The naive seeker is fair game for any and all would be captors via various ideologies through the sheer influence of numbers, persuasion, and charisma. Peer pressure for the gullible is also prevalent so that finding one's way through the thickets of profuse religious and purportedly spiritual teachings becomes hazardous and problematic. It requires some inner conviction and means of guidance to not follow the throngs of worshipers because the herd instinct is strong. Surely, one's mind says to itself, " All those millions of people could not be wrong or be misled by error " . To find the answer to this paradox, we merely need to examine the makeup of those throngs of often-zealous believers. > > Think about this, actions and survival take place automatically and are actually autonomous. Activated by the life energy emanating from the Self, and the qualities of the universe supply the forms. Notice, for instance, that in clinical states of amnesia, human life continues even when the source of imagined identity is lost. Notice then that all fear is fear of loss of identity, existence/survival. > > In nonduality, there is neither a knower nor that which is known because they have become one and the same. Nothing is incomplete. Omniscience is self-completion. There is no desire for the next second of experiencing that propels the ordinary mind, which, from moment to moment, always feels incomplete. The conscious pursuit of spiritual goals is the result of a choice and a decision. It actually requires only willingness and the capacity to follow through. Even a simple spiritual concept is a deceptively powerful tool. The simple decision to be kind, forgiving, and compassionate to all life in all its expressions, including, one's own self is a scalpel that is capable of removing the major impediments to spiritual progress. With humility, one can see that the mind is limited and incapable of seeing all the circumstances surrounding any event. Out of this arises the willingness to let go of condemnation and judgment. This process results in a > willingness to surrender one's experience of the world to God, and only God. It becomes apparent that the world does not really need one's personal opinions about anything at all. If one decides to take a charitable view of life's events, then alternate ways of interpreting circumstances, appearances, and other options will open up. > > An obstacle that is likely to arise is impatience, which sometimes reaches the level of desperation. There is, therefore, sometimes the awful grief at the disappearance of that illuminated state of the Self, or the guilt that perhaps one has done something to deserve being separated from it. One beseeches God in the High Heavens for assistance. The Soul is unwilling and now perhaps even unable to settle for anything less than the presence of God, and only God. Surrender occurs at greater and greater depths until there is finally a willingness to let even one's very self as " I " disappear. That " self " goes deeper and is stronger than one had suspected. Its hold seems tenacious and fierce, that damn ego. > > Then, by the greatest surrender, which is accomplished not by one's own will but by the Grace of God, the agony of the death of the ego/self ocurs and seems almost unbearable. It then disappears into eternity and into the vacancy swells the All-encompassing Presence in stunning glory and radiance. That one ever experienced oneself as separate or not identical with that Presence is unthinkable, and incomprehensible. There is no explanation at that level of awareness. There arises the potentiality for the one to know and experience itself as One. It is sumultaneous by both and yet neither. That is the present state or condition, all potentiality, all possibility, all states, all of them, yet none of them. It is not vervally unexplicable. > > Thus, faith and belief are necessary to start a journey, but verifiable knowledge is necessary to complete it. Without a compass or sextant, the average sailor on the seas ends up at the bottom. As the Buddha said. " Few are they who endeavor to make the journey, and fewer and rarer still are those who succeed " . (Krishna said the same thing in the Bhagavad-Gita). The concern expressed here is for the success and welfare of all mankind whose history, until very recently, has been quite tragic. To own oneself completely is to own all humanity. The Self is the same Self in all, and society represents the collective ego. To look at all mankind in its totality throughout history takes us through the collective consciousness. When on looks at man, it brings grief, sadness, hopelessness, depression, guilt, remorse, or regret. We see man as being miserable, evil, hopeless, tragic, and frightening. With courage, we see that change for the better is > feasible. We stop blaming, hating, and fearing, and lift ourselves out of victimhood, weakness and apathy and strive to make the world better. We give up self blame and self pity and affirm the power within us. To reach Truth, we have to accept that mankind has been in much error and that the reason was ingnorance. Through understanding, we can learn to become compassionate and seek to recontextualize our relationship to the whole, the relationship with God and only God. > > It is consciousness itself that activates the body and its activities and reponses. Its persistance is spontaneous and unintentional. The Self reaquires neither speech nor company nor activities and yet it experiences joy in all things. It delights in love in all its various expressions as existence. Because all that exists is aware, love is recognized by all of Nature, which responds in like. The essence of Reality shines forth as luminescence. The Self unconditionally loves all that exists. All love benefits all life and all mankind. Even to love one's pet dog actually benefits all mankind and is noticed by God. > > Each piece of information contributes to intuitive understanding, and recognition. Truth is recognized. It presents itself to a field of awareness that has been prepared in order to allow the presentation to reveal itself. Truth and enlightenment are not acquired or achieved. It is a state or condition that presents itself when the conditions are appropriate. Humility is of greater value than all factual accumulation. Unless one has completely and totally experienced the presence of God in its stunning, absolute Allness, it is safe for me to say that one really knows nothing and that all accumulated so-called knowledge is but ignorance and pride. Anything within that claims " I know, or is my humble opinion " by that very statement proves that it is false or else it would not make such a claim. The thought, " I know " precludes the ultimate awareness of the real " I Am " . The word " know " is dualistic and assumes a dichotomy between a separate subjest, > the " knower " , and something external to be known. That is the basic error of duality, which assumes the perceptual point of observation. Actually, the subjective and the objective are one and the same. To say otherwise is merely to be arbitrary. To truly know something, is to become the " known " and the " knower " simultaneously. > > The ego is made up of a compilation of arbitrary points of views supplied by mentation and powered by feelings and emotions. These desires represents the attachments that the Buddha spoke of as the bondage of suffering. With absolute humility, the ego dissolves. It is a collection of arbitrary mentations that gain force only because of vanity and habit. If one lets go of the vanity of thought, it dissolves. All thought is vanity. All opinions are vanities. The pleasure of vanity is therefore the basis of the ego, unplug it and it collapses. In higher states of consciousness, it becomes silent in the Presence. To even have a single thought in the presence of the Presence would not be within the realm of the doable nor would there be the likelihood of bringing up such an outlandish pomposity, such an opinion. > > Ideation persists because it is valued. Notice that everyone has an opinion on everything. Notice that all thoughts are merely pointifications. Everyone is enamored of their own thoughts and ideas, even though they are worthless. Education gives reliability to thought processes and therefore of action. This is useful in the world but does not lead to enlightenment. To become educated is one objective, to become enlightened is another. Many are the educated, and few are the enlightened. > > I have asked the question " But is there not reality to experiencing that which is myself? " All seeming separation is an artifact of thought. It is essential to see that the mind is at all times experiencing a point of view. " Then what about illusion? " The entire perceptual illusion that the ego claims to be reality is completely and totally a product of positionality. This is very important to unravel and understand in one's own experiential awareness. If you observe carefully, you will note that at the time the mind is taking a position, that position stems from choice, training, desire, emotion, or political or religious viewpoints. From the arbitrary positionalities of moralizing, all actions and events can be categorized as right of wrong. From that positionality stems all the pointless sacrifice and sufferings of the world. > > The core of the I is the Self of Divinity expressed as awareness. The unmanisfest, transcendental divinity of Allah/God/Brahman/Krishna becomes manifest as the Self/Atman, the immanent divinity. Spiritual evolution occurs as the result of removing obstacle and not actually acquiring anything new. Devotion enables surrender of the mind's vanities and cherished illusions so that it progressively becomes freer and more open to the light of Truth. Illumination refers to those spiritual states where sufficient barriers have been dropped, either deliberately or unconsciously, so that a greater context suddenly presents itself, and in so doing, illuminates, clarifies, and reveals an expanded field of consciousness actually experienced as inner light. This is the light of awareness, the radiance of the Self that emanates as a profound lovingness. Although, for many people, the experience may not last (as in near-death experiences),the residual effect is > permanent and transformative. In due time, the light is likely to return again for periods of infinite bliss, peace, and silence, followed by a profound gratitude for the gift. The unforgettable event tends to set up a yearning to return to that state, which may result in the willingness to give up everything in this world to do so. Curiosity is replaced by dedication, surrender to God and only God, and devotion. Spiritual inspiration, strengthens and becomes the guiding light of one's life. All human desires fade away in comparison to what is now realized as the ultimately possible state. One then has become truly a devotee and a servant of God and only God for whom one is willing to surrender all that this life has to offer. > > One important devotion is meditation. There is no perfect way to meditate, there is no guidance needed to meditate, there is no need for books, instructional manual or guru to teach the " art " of meditation. One sits and quietly go, within. Nothing more to it, how much information is there to be found or to be searched for to learn just to sit quietly and go, within? None. God did not give us the tool of meditation with the intent to have us find a teacher to give us the instructions. God gave us the meditation tool in one complete package, instructional manual included, one just sits (or lays down) quietly and go within. Period. This point, I am making, for those of you who still do not know how to meditate. By the way forgo the CDs, singing bowls, chantings or the likes for it just creates clutter in your mind and you will not be able to follow the simple instructions, sit quietly and go, within. > > Consciousness advances itself when it is provided with essential information that then becomes activated by intention. This in turn prompts inspiration, humility, and surrender to God and only God, and these tendencies become progressively more operative. When dominant, they lead to dedication and perseverance. Spiritual endeavor in the past was really quite unreliable, and seekers were prone to falling into misleading error with no way of realizing what had happened or why. Sometimes high levels of Truth are mixed in with serious spiritual misteachings, and what could have led to real progress led instead to spiritual disaster. Often the misleading spiritual teachings the seeker is acquiring escapes the seeker's detection. Through the mass media, the web, television, newspapers..etc, great numbers of people are deceived, and millions of dollars flow in the pious-sounding spiritual teachers, guasi gurus, and ecclesiastic public figures. It is > actually the talk that is glib. If the sound is turned off on the televesion set, simple observation reveals the truth. Happily, Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita that " Even if a devotte is misled by pious teachers and on the wrong path, if his heart is devoted to God and only God, He will favor him as His " . The impact on the devotee who has been misled is severe when the spiritual rape is uncovered. The disillusionment is more severe than that which follows deception in personal life. Some dejected former devotees never recover and go on to severe depression and total collapse. Some become like walking shells. Spiritual error by the devotee from following false gurus/teachers, can be grave and permanently damaging, therefore, the frequent admonition of caveat emptor recurs in all the teachings offered by ANY spiritual teacher. > > In closing, one must address first where in the spiritual path the seeker is at, where is the seeker obtaining the education, information or teachings? Is the education, information or teaching reliable? Truthful? or is it a serious spiritual error, leading the seeker to a path deep into the darkness of spiritual despair? To self or not to Self, now THAT is the question. > George > mikael <mixolyd > > Friday, September 5, 2008 7:15:22 AM > oneness > > > hi everyone, > > i'm trying to figure out what the goal is of this particular practice > and path, and reading through the articles it seems to be Oneness > > http://www.kundalin iawakeningsystem s1.com/kundalini -oneness. html > > from what i'm reading though in teachings of modern mystics like Ken > Wilber, Jim Marion, Bernadette Roberts and ancient teachings of > tibetan buddhism, there is something beyond the state of union, of > oneness. in that state of oneness there is still a duality, there is > still a witness that calls itself " me " . in Jim Marion's book he writes > about the causal state, or the Christ state, being " one with God " the > feeling of being the son of God, a " co-creator " which seems to be the > goal here -- > and the crucifixion being the metaphor for what must occur after, the > final death of the witness, or soul, and the resurrection into the > state of non-duality or kingdom of heaven. > > randomly happened upon a really good article today explaining this > > http://www.guruswam ig.com/beyondone ness.html > > i'm hoping to start a good discussion about this here. what are ya'll > thoughts on oneness, the goal, if there is anything anything after > > mikael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 No george the question should not be where the seeker is at but should be, " Where am i at " . " I am " may well be ego though is the ego of the higher self within. true onenes does come only after such exsperienc and understanding that comes to exsperiencing the I in all The question should be i am that iam or is it i am that or i am or is it there are no questions left because the I is finaly relised. in that we need to know who we are our selves as in the way we see our self am i the reflected ego of the personality the state of i am that i am or the state of the advanced personality of I am that or am I a result of charactor identification of i am that stakes us to the exonerated state of I To answer Mikaels question I will be honest althou oness is the ultimate goal it is not what i whant now. I want the I am realisation, this realisatsion or ideal is towards the ideal of harmony. I know oneness only comes after harmony and i am here for the long haul and cannot escape the evolution of consciouness through any short cut by deleating the previous steps and stages to it. I will smell the roses as I travel. , George Clifford <georgetheclifford wrote: > > Hi Mikael, > I'm giving a shot at your inquiry and yes, you are right this is a good discussion you began. To your queries, I've added other points which are of importance and would also be essential to your good discussion, so please feel free to add or question as you please. Here goes what in my years of studies I have come to experience and understand. > > The naive seeker is fair game for any and all would be captors via various ideologies through the sheer influence of numbers, persuasion, and charisma. Peer pressure for the gullible is also prevalent so that finding one's way through the thickets of profuse religious and purportedly spiritual teachings becomes hazardous and problematic. It requires some inner conviction and means of guidance to not follow the throngs of worshipers because the herd instinct is strong. Surely, one's mind says to itself, " All those millions of people could not be wrong or be misled by error " . To find the answer to this paradox, we merely need to examine the makeup of those throngs of often-zealous believers. > > Think about this, actions and survival take place automatically and are actually autonomous. Activated by the life energy emanating from the Self, and the qualities of the universe supply the forms. Notice, for instance, that in clinical states of amnesia, human life continues even when the source of imagined identity is lost. Notice then that all fear is fear of loss of identity, existence/survival. > > In nonduality, there is neither a knower nor that which is known because they have become one and the same. Nothing is incomplete. Omniscience is self-completion. There is no desire for the next second of experiencing that propels the ordinary mind, which, from moment to moment, always feels incomplete. The conscious pursuit of spiritual goals is the result of a choice and a decision. It actually requires only willingness and the capacity to follow through. Even a simple spiritual concept is a deceptively powerful tool. The simple decision to be kind, forgiving, and compassionate to all life in all its expressions, including, one's own self is a scalpel that is capable of removing the major impediments to spiritual progress. With humility, one can see that the mind is limited and incapable of seeing all the circumstances surrounding any event. Out of this arises the willingness to let go of condemnation and judgment. This process results in a > willingness to surrender one's experience of the world to God, and only God. It becomes apparent that the world does not really need one's personal opinions about anything at all. If one decides to take a charitable view of life's events, then alternate ways of interpreting circumstances, appearances, and other options will open up. > > An obstacle that is likely to arise is impatience, which sometimes reaches the level of desperation. There is, therefore, sometimes the awful grief at the disappearance of that illuminated state of the Self, or the guilt that perhaps one has done something to deserve being separated from it. One beseeches God in the High Heavens for assistance. The Soul is unwilling and now perhaps even unable to settle for anything less than the presence of God, and only God. Surrender occurs at greater and greater depths until there is finally a willingness to let even one's very self as " I " disappear. That " self " goes deeper and is stronger than one had suspected. Its hold seems tenacious and fierce, that damn ego. > > Then, by the greatest surrender, which is accomplished not by one's own will but by the Grace of God, the agony of the death of the ego/self ocurs and seems almost unbearable. It then disappears into eternity and into the vacancy swells the All-encompassing Presence in stunning glory and radiance. That one ever experienced oneself as separate or not identical with that Presence is unthinkable, and incomprehensible. There is no explanation at that level of awareness. There arises the potentiality for the one to know and experience itself as One. It is sumultaneous by both and yet neither. That is the present state or condition, all potentiality, all possibility, all states, all of them, yet none of them. It is not vervally unexplicable. > > Thus, faith and belief are necessary to start a journey, but verifiable knowledge is necessary to complete it. Without a compass or sextant, the average sailor on the seas ends up at the bottom. As the Buddha said. " Few are they who endeavor to make the journey, and fewer and rarer still are those who succeed " . (Krishna said the same thing in the Bhagavad-Gita). The concern expressed here is for the success and welfare of all mankind whose history, until very recently, has been quite tragic. To own oneself completely is to own all humanity. The Self is the same Self in all, and society represents the collective ego. To look at all mankind in its totality throughout history takes us through the collective consciousness. When on looks at man, it brings grief, sadness, hopelessness, depression, guilt, remorse, or regret. We see man as being miserable, evil, hopeless, tragic, and frightening. With courage, we see that change for the better is > feasible. We stop blaming, hating, and fearing, and lift ourselves out of victimhood, weakness and apathy and strive to make the world better. We give up self blame and self pity and affirm the power within us. To reach Truth, we have to accept that mankind has been in much error and that the reason was ingnorance. Through understanding, we can learn to become compassionate and seek to recontextualize our relationship to the whole, the relationship with God and only God. > > It is consciousness itself that activates the body and its activities and reponses. Its persistance is spontaneous and unintentional. The Self reaquires neither speech nor company nor activities and yet it experiences joy in all things. It delights in love in all its various expressions as existence. Because all that exists is aware, love is recognized by all of Nature, which responds in like. The essence of Reality shines forth as luminescence. The Self unconditionally loves all that exists. All love benefits all life and all mankind. Even to love one's pet dog actually benefits all mankind and is noticed by God. > > Each piece of information contributes to intuitive understanding, and recognition. Truth is recognized. It presents itself to a field of awareness that has been prepared in order to allow the presentation to reveal itself. Truth and enlightenment are not acquired or achieved. It is a state or condition that presents itself when the conditions are appropriate. Humility is of greater value than all factual accumulation. Unless one has completely and totally experienced the presence of God in its stunning, absolute Allness, it is safe for me to say that one really knows nothing and that all accumulated so-called knowledge is but ignorance and pride. Anything within that claims " I know, or is my humble opinion " by that very statement proves that it is false or else it would not make such a claim. The thought, " I know " precludes the ultimate awareness of the real " I Am " . The word " know " is dualistic and assumes a dichotomy between a separate subjest, > the " knower " , and something external to be known. That is the basic error of duality, which assumes the perceptual point of observation. Actually, the subjective and the objective are one and the same. To say otherwise is merely to be arbitrary. To truly know something, is to become the " known " and the " knower " simultaneously. > > The ego is made up of a compilation of arbitrary points of views supplied by mentation and powered by feelings and emotions. These desires represents the attachments that the Buddha spoke of as the bondage of suffering. With absolute humility, the ego dissolves. It is a collection of arbitrary mentations that gain force only because of vanity and habit. If one lets go of the vanity of thought, it dissolves. All thought is vanity. All opinions are vanities. The pleasure of vanity is therefore the basis of the ego, unplug it and it collapses. In higher states of consciousness, it becomes silent in the Presence. To even have a single thought in the presence of the Presence would not be within the realm of the doable nor would there be the likelihood of bringing up such an outlandish pomposity, such an opinion. > > Ideation persists because it is valued. Notice that everyone has an opinion on everything. Notice that all thoughts are merely pointifications. Everyone is enamored of their own thoughts and ideas, even though they are worthless. Education gives reliability to thought processes and therefore of action. This is useful in the world but does not lead to enlightenment. To become educated is one objective, to become enlightened is another. Many are the educated, and few are the enlightened. > > I have asked the question " But is there not reality to experiencing that which is myself? " All seeming separation is an artifact of thought. It is essential to see that the mind is at all times experiencing a point of view. " Then what about illusion? " The entire perceptual illusion that the ego claims to be reality is completely and totally a product of positionality. This is very important to unravel and understand in one's own experiential awareness. If you observe carefully, you will note that at the time the mind is taking a position, that position stems from choice, training, desire, emotion, or political or religious viewpoints. From the arbitrary positionalities of moralizing, all actions and events can be categorized as right of wrong. From that positionality stems all the pointless sacrifice and sufferings of the world. > > The core of the I is the Self of Divinity expressed as awareness. The unmanisfest, transcendental divinity of Allah/God/Brahman/Krishna becomes manifest as the Self/Atman, the immanent divinity. Spiritual evolution occurs as the result of removing obstacle and not actually acquiring anything new. Devotion enables surrender of the mind's vanities and cherished illusions so that it progressively becomes freer and more open to the light of Truth. Illumination refers to those spiritual states where sufficient barriers have been dropped, either deliberately or unconsciously, so that a greater context suddenly presents itself, and in so doing, illuminates, clarifies, and reveals an expanded field of consciousness actually experienced as inner light. This is the light of awareness, the radiance of the Self that emanates as a profound lovingness. Although, for many people, the experience may not last (as in near-death experiences),the residual effect is > permanent and transformative. In due time, the light is likely to return again for periods of infinite bliss, peace, and silence, followed by a profound gratitude for the gift. The unforgettable event tends to set up a yearning to return to that state, which may result in the willingness to give up everything in this world to do so. Curiosity is replaced by dedication, surrender to God and only God, and devotion. Spiritual inspiration, strengthens and becomes the guiding light of one's life. All human desires fade away in comparison to what is now realized as the ultimately possible state. One then has become truly a devotee and a servant of God and only God for whom one is willing to surrender all that this life has to offer. > > One important devotion is meditation. There is no perfect way to meditate, there is no guidance needed to meditate, there is no need for books, instructional manual or guru to teach the " art " of meditation. One sits and quietly go, within. Nothing more to it, how much information is there to be found or to be searched for to learn just to sit quietly and go, within? None. God did not give us the tool of meditation with the intent to have us find a teacher to give us the instructions. God gave us the meditation tool in one complete package, instructional manual included, one just sits (or lays down) quietly and go within. Period. This point, I am making, for those of you who still do not know how to meditate. By the way forgo the CDs, singing bowls, chantings or the likes for it just creates clutter in your mind and you will not be able to follow the simple instructions, sit quietly and go, within. > > Consciousness advances itself when it is provided with essential information that then becomes activated by intention. This in turn prompts inspiration, humility, and surrender to God and only God, and these tendencies become progressively more operative. When dominant, they lead to dedication and perseverance. Spiritual endeavor in the past was really quite unreliable, and seekers were prone to falling into misleading error with no way of realizing what had happened or why. Sometimes high levels of Truth are mixed in with serious spiritual misteachings, and what could have led to real progress led instead to spiritual disaster. Often the misleading spiritual teachings the seeker is acquiring escapes the seeker's detection. Through the mass media, the web, television, newspapers..etc, great numbers of people are deceived, and millions of dollars flow in the pious-sounding spiritual teachers, guasi gurus, and ecclesiastic public figures. It is > actually the talk that is glib. If the sound is turned off on the televesion set, simple observation reveals the truth. Happily, Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita that " Even if a devotte is misled by pious teachers and on the wrong path, if his heart is devoted to God and only God, He will favor him as His " . The impact on the devotee who has been misled is severe when the spiritual rape is uncovered. The disillusionment is more severe than that which follows deception in personal life. Some dejected former devotees never recover and go on to severe depression and total collapse. Some become like walking shells. Spiritual error by the devotee from following false gurus/teachers, can be grave and permanently damaging, therefore, the frequent admonition of caveat emptor recurs in all the teachings offered by ANY spiritual teacher. > > In closing, one must address first where in the spiritual path the seeker is at, where is the seeker obtaining the education, information or teachings? Is the education, information or teaching reliable? Truthful? or is it a serious spiritual error, leading the seeker to a path deep into the darkness of spiritual despair? To self or not to Self, now THAT is the question. > George > mikael <mixolyd > > Friday, September 5, 2008 7:15:22 AM > oneness > > > hi everyone, > > i'm trying to figure out what the goal is of this particular practice > and path, and reading through the articles it seems to be Oneness > > http://www.kundalin iawakeningsystem s1.com/kundalini -oneness. html > > from what i'm reading though in teachings of modern mystics like Ken > Wilber, Jim Marion, Bernadette Roberts and ancient teachings of > tibetan buddhism, there is something beyond the state of union, of > oneness. in that state of oneness there is still a duality, there is > still a witness that calls itself " me " . in Jim Marion's book he writes > about the causal state, or the Christ state, being " one with God " the > feeling of being the son of God, a " co-creator " which seems to be the > goal here -- > and the crucifixion being the metaphor for what must occur after, the > final death of the witness, or soul, and the resurrection into the > state of non-duality or kingdom of heaven. > > randomly happened upon a really good article today explaining this > > http://www.guruswam ig.com/beyondone ness.html > > i'm hoping to start a good discussion about this here. what are ya'll > thoughts on oneness, the goal, if there is anything anything after > > mikael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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