Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 I am not sure if I understand what you are getting at. The perfect natural enviroment was the Garden of Eden, but we were innocence babes there and all was perfect, not conducive to learning right and wrong so as to take part in co-creating. To gain enlightenment one as to experience both good and evil and make a choice to follow God will or follow ones own will, right? Before I thought you were talking about outdoors/nature environment vs. city life and that city life supresses K. It is sometimes hard for me to understand some of you full awakened K people! Linda , " JOHN. M " <john.mathieson1 wrote: > > Linda, > If we was in a natural environment then whatever gods will is or whatever god is, then why are we not already enlightened. > My theory for this is that we are not in a natural environment. rather we and/or our ancestors/predecessors have surrendered there will to mans will and have chosen to follow false gods, whatever they are. > Love > John > - > Linda > > Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:00 PM > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Linda No I am not awakened and is still have a way way way to go. Natural is a type of innocence It is not natural for man woman kind to fear the is an animal aspect yet they fear. It is natural that man woman has power over the animal kingdom yet they fear them If I was brought up in a natural environment I would do natural things without fear of consequence. I would live in a world of love In a world of love then I do not need any thing or any body god guru no one to teach me love. because that would be my natural world. Love John .M - Linda Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:52 PM Natural environment -John I am not sure if I understand what you are getting at. The perfect natural enviroment was the Garden of Eden, but we were innocence babes there and all was perfect, not conducive to learning right and wrong so as to take part in co-creating. To gain enlightenment one as to experience both good and evil and make a choice to follow God will or follow ones own will, right?Before I thought you were talking about outdoors/nature environment vs. city life and that city life supresses K. It is sometimes hard for me to understand some of you full awakened K people! :)Linda , "JOHN. M" <john.mathieson1 wrote:>> Linda,> If we was in a natural environment then whatever gods will is or whatever god is, then why are we not already enlightened.> My theory for this is that we are not in a natural environment. rather we and/or our ancestors/predecessors have surrendered there will to mans will and have chosen to follow false gods, whatever they are.> Love> John> - > Linda > > Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:00 PM> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Hi John, have you read 'A brief history of everything' by Ken Wilber? In that book he explores issues such as nature romanticism, the noble savage, and wether or not nature is the paradise it's made out to be. Nature has many positive qualities, and coming from Africa I have a great love of the land, yet there is also much killing, death and hardship. He also explores the difference between regressing to nature and becoming fused with it, as opposed to transcending and including it within a higher level of being. Fear is a natural part of growing up in nature; there is fear of snakes, spiders, animals, fear of the night, etc, and that fear gets imprinted. Unfortunatly we also get imprinted with the fear of our culture, and if we grew up in a love based culture, then we would not have to carry and heal so much fear in our journey towards wholeness. If our culture supported us in being who we need to be without fear of consequence, then perhaps life would be better. Yes, growing up in nature one would be free of the limitations of culture, as you seem to suggest, yet we would also be denied the stimulation of culture and the ability to develop the mind, ending up very undeveloped. My experience is that authentic love develops as natural body-bound impulses are transcended and a higher and wider embrace of love emerges, and at some point, from a place of inner fullness, love begins to extend into the world without need for anything back. I agree that healty expression is a key to healthy development, which supports higher levels of consciousness and the road towards self- realization. Development seems to happen better in loving and natural environments, but the funny thing is that its often the people who have suffered the most who end up seeking enlightenment. It seems to be an unavoidable aspect of development towards enlightenment that first a healthy ego has to develop, and then be transcended (barring a few remarkeable cases of people seemingly born with enlightened awareness). SO, at some point in that journey, the identification with the ego will have to be transcended, and until that point, the ego will hijack the notion of love for its self- serving needs. I am not suggesting that no love or goodness is possible from an unenlightened or egoic state of consciousness. WHat I am suggesting is that if we were all just left out in nature, we would not automatically be loving and enlightened (as you seem to suggest, and please correct me if I am wrong, and I would caution about idealizing the natural world. I have fallen into that trap before. We would still need to climb through the more base and self serving emotions of the lower chakras, and climb through the realm of the mind, and there is every chance of getting stuck down there. Wilber (in the above mentioned book) suggests that culture and civilization is a higher state of evolutionary consciousness than raw nature and is a necessary stage in the road towards full enlightenment. My experience in Afica is that when people from tribal/natural cultures are bought into civilization, then often a lot of problems occur as their natural conditioning is not suitable for the city, and they end up (as we all do) trying to repeat their conditioning in an alien environment. My understanding is that enlightenment is a radical liberation, and no matter where you go, your fundamental identity is free, and you are no longer bound by culture or conditioning. Rather, you have found an inner home in Spirit, and have unshakeable confidence in that, regardless of the form of the world around you or the experience within you or the expression you embody. For me then, enlightenment is not to be found in a set of conditions that may appear to support love or self-expression, rather, its freedom from conditions, and its to be found in the cities, in the toilet, in bad jokes, computers, as well as in the trees, the skies and the lions. And K. in nature.. well, for me K. has been full blown for quite some time. Growing up I spent much time in the sea and the mountains, and maybe that helped my development somewhat. However, my awakening started in an industrial city called Kaohsiung in southern taiwan, which is little more than a giant piece of concrete with lots of neon lights. We exist in a giant energy field, and God is everywhere. My K. doesnt seem either stimulated or reduced by nature. take care Bruce , " JOHN. M " <john.mathieson1 wrote: > > Linda > No I am not awakened and is still have a way way way to go. > Natural is a type of innocence > It is not natural for man woman kind to fear the is an animal aspect yet they fear. > It is natural that man woman has power over the animal kingdom yet they fear them > If I was brought up in a natural environment I would do natural things without fear of consequence. > I would live in a world of love > In a world of love then I do not need any thing or any body god guru no one to teach me love. > because that would be my natural world. > Love > John .M > > > - > Linda > > Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:52 PM > Natural environment -John > > > I am not sure if I understand what you are getting at. The perfect > natural enviroment was the Garden of Eden, but we were innocence babes > there and all was perfect, not conducive to learning right and wrong so > as to take part in co-creating. To gain enlightenment one as to > experience both good and evil and make a choice to follow God will or > follow ones own will, right? > > Before I thought you were talking about outdoors/nature environment vs. > city life and that city life supresses K. It is sometimes hard for me > to understand some of you full awakened K people! > > Linda > > , " JOHN. M " > <john.mathieson1@> wrote: > > > > Linda, > > If we was in a natural environment then whatever gods will is or > whatever god is, then why are we not already enlightened. > > My theory for this is that we are not in a natural environment. > rather we and/or our ancestors/predecessors have surrendered there will > to mans will and have chosen to follow false gods, whatever they are. > > Love > > John > > - > > Linda > > > > Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:00 PM > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Bruce, All of that occurs because we have lost / not developed the ability to manna-fest for ourselves. Therefore, we manifest by redistributing the condensed light resources of the planet It was said recently in another group that our purpose here is to learn the lessons of the food chain planet, to learn insect style service-to-others and walk a mile in " bug " shoes as a means to achieving a peaceful future. If you look at the Roswell faces you can put 2 and 2 together. This is the nature of our service to others and we will go around on this until the lesson is learned. K is one of the lessons. Love. Thanks. Dell bruce_oom wrote: > Hi John, > > have you read 'A brief history of everything' by Ken Wilber? In that > book he explores issues such as nature romanticism, the noble savage, > and wether or not nature is the paradise it's made out to be. Nature > has many positive qualities, and coming from Africa I have a great > love of the land, yet there is also much killing, death and hardship. > He also explores the difference between regressing to nature and > becoming fused with it, as opposed to transcending and including it > within a higher level of being. Fear is a natural part of growing up > in nature; there is fear of snakes, spiders, animals, fear of the > night, etc, and that fear gets imprinted. Unfortunatly we also get > imprinted with the fear of our culture, and if we grew up in a love > based culture, then we would not have to carry and heal so much fear > in our journey towards wholeness. If our culture supported us in > being who we need to be without fear of consequence, then perhaps > life would be better. Yes, growing up in nature one would be free of > the limitations of culture, as you seem to suggest, yet we would also > be denied the stimulation of culture and the ability to develop the > mind, ending up very undeveloped. My experience is that authentic > love develops as natural body-bound impulses are transcended and a > higher and wider embrace of love emerges, and at some point, from a > place of inner fullness, love begins to extend into the world without > need for anything back. > > I agree that healty expression is a key to healthy development, which > supports higher levels of consciousness and the road towards self- > realization. Development seems to happen better in loving and > natural environments, but the funny thing is that its often the > people who have suffered the most who end up seeking enlightenment. > It seems to be an unavoidable aspect of development towards > enlightenment that first a healthy ego has to develop, and then be > transcended (barring a few remarkeable cases of people seemingly born > with enlightened awareness). SO, at some point in that journey, the > identification with the ego will have to be transcended, and until > that point, the ego will hijack the notion of love for its self- > serving needs. > > I am not suggesting that no love or goodness is possible from an > unenlightened or egoic state of consciousness. WHat I am suggesting > is that if we were all just left out in nature, we would not > automatically be loving and enlightened (as you seem to suggest, and > please correct me if I am wrong, and I would caution about idealizing > the natural world. I have fallen into that trap before. We would > still need to climb through the more base and self serving emotions > of the lower chakras, and climb through the realm of the mind, and > there is every chance of getting stuck down there. Wilber (in the > above mentioned book) suggests that culture and civilization is a > higher state of evolutionary consciousness than raw nature and is a > necessary stage in the road towards full enlightenment. > > My experience in Afica is that when people from tribal/natural > cultures are bought into civilization, then often a lot of problems > occur as their natural conditioning is not suitable for the city, and > they end up (as we all do) trying to repeat their conditioning in an > alien environment. My understanding is that enlightenment is a > radical liberation, and no matter where you go, your fundamental > identity is free, and you are no longer bound by culture or > conditioning. Rather, you have found an inner home in Spirit, and > have unshakeable confidence in that, regardless of the form of the > world around you or the experience within you or the expression you > embody. For me then, enlightenment is not to be found in a set of > conditions that may appear to support love or self-expression, > rather, its freedom from conditions, and its to be found in the > cities, in the toilet, in bad jokes, computers, as well as in the > trees, the skies and the lions. > > And K. in nature.. well, for me K. has been full blown for quite some > time. Growing up I spent much time in the sea and the mountains, and > maybe that helped my development somewhat. However, my awakening > started in an industrial city called Kaohsiung in southern taiwan, > which is little more than a giant piece of concrete with lots of neon > lights. We exist in a giant energy field, and God is everywhere. My > K. doesnt seem either stimulated or reduced by nature. > > take care > Bruce > > > > , " JOHN. M " > <john.mathieson1 wrote: > >> Linda >> No I am not awakened and is still have a way way way to go. >> Natural is a type of innocence >> It is not natural for man woman kind to fear the is an animal >> > aspect yet they fear. > >> It is natural that man woman has power over the animal kingdom yet >> > they fear them > >> If I was brought up in a natural environment I would do natural >> > things without fear of consequence. > >> I would live in a world of love >> In a world of love then I do not need any thing or any body god >> > guru no one to teach me love. > >> because that would be my natural world. >> Love >> John .M >> >> >> - >> Linda >> >> Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:52 PM >> Natural environment -John >> >> >> I am not sure if I understand what you are getting at. The >> > perfect > >> natural enviroment was the Garden of Eden, but we were innocence >> > babes > >> there and all was perfect, not conducive to learning right and >> > wrong so > >> as to take part in co-creating. To gain enlightenment one as to >> experience both good and evil and make a choice to follow God >> > will or > >> follow ones own will, right? >> >> Before I thought you were talking about outdoors/nature >> > environment vs. > >> city life and that city life supresses K. It is sometimes hard >> > for me > >> to understand some of you full awakened K people! >> >> Linda >> >> , " JOHN. M " >> <john.mathieson1@> wrote: >> > >> > Linda, >> > If we was in a natural environment then whatever gods will is >> > or > >> whatever god is, then why are we not already enlightened. >> > My theory for this is that we are not in a natural environment. >> rather we and/or our ancestors/predecessors have surrendered >> > there will > >> to mans will and have chosen to follow false gods, whatever they >> > are. > >> > Love >> > John >> > - >> > Linda >> > >> > Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:00 PM >> > >> >> > > > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Good aye Bruce Thank you for your reply I do have a problem trying to get my head around what is natural for Wo/man, Though I dot believe it is within the confines of animal nature. Nature as in mother nature and the all the various species both flora and fauna react to the instinctual need of survival. I don't believe humans are out side of this scope, though in wo/man instinctual is below the frontal lobe scope of cranium that has been developed, Man kind has the intellectual scope that should have already transcended fear. way before the development of Aryans of India, I believe fear should have been displaced by cognition and rationality long ago, though this has not been the proven case. It seems to me that fear even though outside of the nature of man has been re invented to control the efforts towards the evolution of understanding ourselves or who we really are. The fear that really subdues our evolution is subjective on the casual mind and binds the three lower centers that influence our physical, s@xual and emotional bodies. Many people seem content. identify themselves or ourselves with these to be what we are and only what we are. In that we are humans and as such evolved to a point above all other creature just to be on top of the food chain This is a subjective conditioning of fear and by subjective I mean to say it seems to me unnaturally imposed by those that seek control to rein as kings, lords and alike. Many are confused what I mean to say is confusion is apparent within the aspect towards the meaning of love. This is reflective in modern societies to differing existance and social conditioning. Some believe love is physical based, and this is true and is what give people a grounding to wards soul growth, Some believe s@xual yes this is true as it enables species to reproduce, some believe love is emotional that in communication with one another regarding the three lower centers is the primus of who we are. To go beyond this, is not possible, we are animals, we need to remain under control of the lords of the power echelons so that they can maintain our peace and security. For sure the new controlling force have done a very good job of it till now. Possiably they will keep on doing a good job. Though the true nature on wo/man is an explorer of time space and as an explorer there is no reasoning to hold onto the fear based concepts that stunt the growth of conceptual-outside the box type experience or thought. It is why that I come to believe that fear is not within the true nature of wo/man. I am sure there is a lot more could be written on this very important subject and when I fist looked at the mail I received from you I though it might be a book :-) Bruce again, thank you for you comments. I believe our song is in harmony. There is a saying that comes from Aussie rules when one punches the ball to another it is called hand ball. I would like to hear more of this from you and others of what the thoughts are on what is natural:-) John - bruce_oom Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:42 PM Re: Natural environment -John Hi John,have you read 'A brief history of everything' by Ken Wilber? In that book he explores issues such as nature romanticism, the noble savage, and wether or not nature is the paradise it's made out to be. Nature has many positive qualities, and coming from Africa I have a great love of the land, yet there is also much killing, death and hardship. He also explores the difference between regressing to nature and becoming fused with it, as opposed to transcending and including it within a higher level of being. Fear is a natural part of growing up in nature; there is fear of snakes, spiders, animals, fear of the night, etc, and that fear gets imprinted. Unfortunatly we also get imprinted with the fear of our culture, and if we grew up in a love based culture, then we would not have to carry and heal so much fear in our journey towards wholeness. If our culture supported us in being who we need to be without fear of consequence, then perhaps life would be better. Yes, growing up in nature one would be free of the limitations of culture, as you seem to suggest, yet we would also be denied the stimulation of culture and the ability to develop the mind, ending up very undeveloped. My experience is that authentic love develops as natural body-bound impulses are transcended and a higher and wider embrace of love emerges, and at some point, from a place of inner fullness, love begins to extend into the world without need for anything back.I agree that healty expression is a key to healthy development, which supports higher levels of consciousness and the road towards self-realization. Development seems to happen better in loving and natural environments, but the funny thing is that its often the people who have suffered the most who end up seeking enlightenment. It seems to be an unavoidable aspect of development towards enlightenment that first a healthy ego has to develop, and then be transcended (barring a few remarkeable cases of people seemingly born with enlightened awareness). SO, at some point in that journey, the identification with the ego will have to be transcended, and until that point, the ego will hijack the notion of love for its self-serving needs.I am not suggesting that no love or goodness is possible from an unenlightened or egoic state of consciousness. WHat I am suggesting is that if we were all just left out in nature, we would not automatically be loving and enlightened (as you seem to suggest, and please correct me if I am wrong, and I would caution about idealizing the natural world. I have fallen into that trap before. We would still need to climb through the more base and self serving emotions of the lower chakras, and climb through the realm of the mind, and there is every chance of getting stuck down there. Wilber (in the above mentioned book) suggests that culture and civilization is a higher state of evolutionary consciousness than raw nature and is a necessary stage in the road towards full enlightenment.My experience in Afica is that when people from tribal/natural cultures are bought into civilization, then often a lot of problems occur as their natural conditioning is not suitable for the city, and they end up (as we all do) trying to repeat their conditioning in an alien environment. My understanding is that enlightenment is a radical liberation, and no matter where you go, your fundamental identity is free, and you are no longer bound by culture or conditioning. Rather, you have found an inner home in Spirit, and have unshakeable confidence in that, regardless of the form of the world around you or the experience within you or the expression you embody. For me then, enlightenment is not to be found in a set of conditions that may appear to support love or self-expression, rather, its freedom from conditions, and its to be found in the cities, in the toilet, in bad jokes, computers, as well as in the trees, the skies and the lions.And K. in nature.. well, for me K. has been full blown for quite some time. Growing up I spent much time in the sea and the mountains, and maybe that helped my development somewhat. However, my awakening started in an industrial city called Kaohsiung in southern taiwan, which is little more than a giant piece of concrete with lots of neon lights. We exist in a giant energy field, and God is everywhere. My K. doesnt seem either stimulated or reduced by nature.take careBruce , "JOHN. M" <john.mathieson1 wrote:>> Linda> No I am not awakened and is still have a way way way to go.> Natural is a type of innocence> It is not natural for man woman kind to fear the is an animal aspect yet they fear.> It is natural that man woman has power over the animal kingdom yet they fear them> If I was brought up in a natural environment I would do natural things without fear of consequence.> I would live in a world of love> In a world of love then I do not need any thing or any body god guru no one to teach me love.> because that would be my natural world.> Love> John .M> > > - > Linda > > Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:52 PM> Natural environment -John> > > I am not sure if I understand what you are getting at. The perfect > natural enviroment was the Garden of Eden, but we were innocence babes > there and all was perfect, not conducive to learning right and wrong so > as to take part in co-creating. To gain enlightenment one as to > experience both good and evil and make a choice to follow God will or > follow ones own will, right?> > Before I thought you were talking about outdoors/nature environment vs. > city life and that city life supresses K. It is sometimes hard for me > to understand some of you full awakened K people! > > Linda> > , "JOHN. M" > <john.mathieson1@> wrote:> >> > Linda,> > If we was in a natural environment then whatever gods will is or > whatever god is, then why are we not already enlightened.> > My theory for this is that we are not in a natural environment. > rather we and/or our ancestors/predecessors have surrendered there will > to mans will and have chosen to follow false gods, whatever they are.> > Love> > John> > - > > Linda > > > > Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:00 PM> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Hi John, haha.. I am also worried my mails might be a book.. I sometimes put myself to sleep trying to write them Maybe what is natural then is what we need to express wherever we are on our journey. If we are identified with power and control, then its natural to express that. If its fear, then its natural for that. If its evolution and self transcendance, then its natural to be that. If our identity is with divine love, then its natural to express that. Maybe we just gotto be what we are, and thats the way to grow. I found when I express myself, then I reflect and see what I am, or when the world is my mirror and gives me feedback, then I continue to grow. Perhaps the trick is just not to get stuck..(and I seem to get stuck easily ) anyways, take care. Its nice to sing. Bruce > > I am sure there is a lot more could be written on this very important subject and when I fist looked at the mail I received from you I though it might be a book :-) > > Bruce again, thank you for you comments. I believe our song is in harmony. There is a saying that comes from Aussie rules when one punches the ball to another it is called hand ball. > I would like to hear more of this from you and others of what the thoughts are on what is natural:-) > John > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2009 Report Share Posted February 8, 2009 laa la la; la la this is the dawning of the age of ........................... Lol John -John anyways, take care. Its nice to sing.Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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